De Icaza Pleads For Mono/.Net Cooperation

suka writes "In a recent interview with the online edition of an Austrian newspaper, Mono project-lead Miguel de Icaza pleads for cooperation between Mono and Microsoft's .Net: 'I think that the deal should include a technical Mono/.NET collaboration, and even go as far as Microsoft recommending Mono for all of their developers looking at migration'. The whole interview has some other interesting bits, like de Icaza's thoughts on open sourced Java and information about upcoming versions of Mono."

so, at last...

[WeAreAllDoomed]

the sleeper activates...

Good Luck

[MightyMartian]

Good luck on that. Microsoft most certainly doesn't want its application platform running well on other operating systems. The whole point of .Net was get something there while it fucked over Sun. I'm afraid that Mono, like Samba and OpenOffice, is stuck reverse engineering Microsoft, and that will always be a game of catchup.

What?

[Anonymous Coward]

'I think that the deal should include a technical Mono/.NET collaboration, and even go as far as Microsoft recommending Mono for all of their developers looking at migration'

Microsoft recommending a non-microsoft technology for a migration away from a Microsoft OS? Did i get that correctly?

Hey while we're asking for that one can we ask Microsoft to donate money to the FSF as well? That'll have pretty much the same chance of happening :)

.NOT NYET

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh just quit it, Mono has no takeup because if people wanted to use Microsoft technology they'd be buying Vista and .NET.
If they want cross platform portability they don't rely on Microsoft for anything, rather than try .NET plus a clone.

All Mono does is give them a veneer to claim cross platform portability without actually being cross platform portable.

Like if it would ever happen

[vivaoporto]

If Microsoft was interested in interoperability, they could have it, anytime. They own the platform, for goodness sake, and if they wanted other their framework to work on other O.S., they would do it themselves. Microsoft strategy is not and will never be help to other platforms to run their applications, they prefer people locked in, with no choice. What is the main excuse for Mono? "To help people that are locked in .Net applications to migrate to Linux". (btw, if those people had plans to migrate to Linux, they would not choose .Net in the first place, as the technology is widely known as MS only. It is not as if it was a market standard, it is 6 years old, tops). Microsoft, on other hand, lists .Net as an advantage over "Unix" [microsoft.com]. Why would they give up that advantage? On the goodness of their hearts?

I say it again: if MS wanted a fully functional port of the .Net framework for *nix, they would do it themselves (like the PS3 people ported linux to their console). The truth is that they don't want.

Mono is a Trojan Horse, expect no help

[Locutus]

Why does this guy need comfort from and a working relationship with Microsoft? And why do all of his projects follow some tech Microsoft convolutes from some REAL tech(OOP, Java, etc)? Sure seems like he's got a case of Microsoft envy or something and IMO, it can only be terminal.

Because De Icaza is not only putting Microsoft tech in Mono, he's pushed Mono applications into Gnome and he's loading the MS Trojan Horse onto many GNU/Linux distros.

So what is up with him needing acceptance from Microsoft?

LoB

Nevermind MS....

[Anonymous Coward]

Let's see, every piece of software that has anything to do with Mono is slow, buggy and they leave zombie processes everywhere. I hate them to the point where I finally ditched Gnome. I recently updated to SUSE 10.2, which has been afflicted with Mono, even though I choose KDE. I now curse SUSE.

Why would Linux users be interested in Mono again? Something about "compatibility" with MS software? You mean software that's slow and buggy and makes me curse like a sailor? No thanks.

As far as I'm concerned, mono stands for "mononucleosis". I sure as heck don't want the human version nor the computer version!

Mod parent up!

[khasim]

Not to mention that ALL the source code for Linux is Freely available online. If there's any "interoperability" issues, Microsoft has access to ALL the Windows code and ALL the Linux code.

They only reason there are "interoperability" issues today is because Microsoft wants there to be.

Re:Good Luck

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, I think the point he is trying to make is that Novell should have pushed for the cooperation to be part of the deal, as in: one of Novell's demands. Of course Microsoft probably doesn't want to do this voluntarily, which is why it would have a place in the deal.

Re:Good Luck

[LWATCDR]

I hate to say it but I always felt Mono was a mistake. The problem with .NET is that it really is a Windows only system. When you try to point that out people say not it isn't you can use Mono. A convent lie that lets .NET compete with Java right up to the point where you have tens of thousands of lines of code and you want to migrate to a different platform. Then the Microsoft sales rep can say, "You know Mono really has fallen behind .NET. You can port your applications if you want but it would just be cheaper to stick with Windows. Once you add in the cost of porting all that code your Total Cost of Ownership will be much less with Windows. Oh and would you like some more copies of Office and another Exchange server to got with that?"

Mono is multi-platform .NET is not.

Re:Good Luck

[gambit3]

Interoperability.

When has M$ cared about it, unless it was to Embrace then expand? It only cares about interoperability if it's playing catchup in the market. If it isn't, then you're screwed trying to get this from M$.

Re:Good Luck

[SoCalChris]

Considering that section 3.d.iii of their MSDN code license (Covers the code samples on the MSDN site) specifically disallows you from using any of their code on non-windows platforms, I'd say their position on cross platform compatibility is crystal clear.

MSDN Code License [72.14.253.104]

Miguel needs a reality check

[overshoot]

Microsoft didn't get where they are today by enabling their customers to leave.

Miguel's role in the world is to make it possible for Linux developers to get locked into Microsoft technologies, In due time Microsoft can harvest them in any number of ways. If he thinks otherwise, he needs to reconsider his choices in recreational chemistry.

Re:Instead of catch up

[tkinnun0]

Once upon a time, Microsoft tried to create an incompatible Java.

Now, Open Source Aficionados are creating an incompatible .NET.

Ah, the bitter sweet irony.

Re:The point of Mono?

[metamatic]

Language independance

Yeah, 'cause it's not like you can compile other languages like Ruby [javalobby.org] to Java bytecode.

Re:Yeah right

[daeg]

Because it saves them market share, which is still valuable. If you're going to lose someone to Linux, you can at least keep them partially on your platform. This makes it easy, or sometimes desirable, to switch back to Windows (for integration into other Windows software, etc).

Furthermore, if you keep them on .NET, you may also keep them on SQL Server and Exchange, which are very very pricey and I'm sure turns a nice profit.

Visual Studio is also very nice to work in, and Visual Studio isn't cheap, either. As you use Mono you can reuse those same components on Windows, too (ideally).

Re:Good Luck

[Teckla]

I hate to say it but I always felt Mono was a mistake. The problem with .NET is that it really is a Windows only system. When you try to point that out people say not it isn't you can use Mono. A convent lie that lets .NET compete with Java right up to the point where you have tens of thousands of lines of code and you want to migrate to a different platform. Then the Microsoft sales rep can say, "You know Mono really has fallen behind .NET. You can port your applications if you want but it would just be cheaper to stick with Windows. Once you add in the cost of porting all that code your Total Cost of Ownership will be much less with Windows. Oh and would you like some more copies of Office and another Exchange server to got with that?"

Mono is multi-platform .NET is not.

Even worse... How long until Ballmer starts grumbling about Mono using Microsoft patents?

Mono will never be a safe language for developers ... or even users. Just wait until Microsoft starts talking about how users of Mono applications owe Microsoft money because of the usage of Microsoft patented technology in Mono...

Re:The point of Mono?

[Xtifr]

Well, first and foremost, some people seem to prefer one over the other. God only knows why, but they do. That alone would be reason enough. Second of all, while they have many similarities, they also have many differences, and they're not particularly compatible. Having FLOSS support for both means software written in either can be free. That's a big deal too. It's basically the same reason that the Gnu Compiler Collection includes Fortran as well as C. And finally, while the Java spec was (and as far as I know, still is) under the control of one company, and is subject to change at a whim, Mono is (believe it or not) based on a public standard. It's a fuzzy standard from a dubious standards body (ECMA) that tends to be a bit of a corporate lapdog, and it only covers parts of what MS calls ".NET", but it is a standard, and FLOSS folks tend to really like public standards.

But really, the first one is the biggie. Why have Perl AND Tcl AND Python AND Ruby? Why have Gnome AND Kde AND Xfce AND GnuStep? Why have Emacs AND vi? Why have bash AND tcsh AND zsh? Why have Sendmail AND Postfix AND Exim? Why have MySQL AND PostgreSQL AND Firebird? Because people aren't all the same, and have different preferences, and, at some level, FLOSS is supposed to be, at least in part, about choice and freedom.

Why Mono and DotNet should synch

[Orion Blastar]

This gives a great opportunity to allow Visual Studio developers to port code to Linux, Mac OSX, *BSD Unix, etc by having Dotnet and Mono synch up to be 100% compatible in the code and CIL, CLR used.

It also would allow Microsoft to more easily port Visual Studio to Linux, Mac OSX, *BSD Unix, and other platforms that Microsoft claims is too hard to port Visual Studio over to. After that is done, Microsoft can port their application software to those platforms more easily rather than rewriting code for a separate Windows and Mac version of MS-Office, etc. Then it would be one code base, and recompiled for each platform using Dotnet/Mono libraries. If Mono is finally 100% compatible with Dotnet, then the CIL and CLR code will run under Mono as well as it does under Dotnet on Windows. Since Mono exists for multiple operating systems, all that is needed is to compile the code for that OS and it makes cross-compiling easy and less costly.

Think of all the money in R&D that Microsoft would save, if it partners up with Novell and Mono just on the R&R of OSX applications that Microsoft writes if the same code can be used for Windows and OSX with just being recompiled.

Novell Failed With Evolution, so Why Not?

[filesiteguy]

I've been a SUSE user for about two years now. I have exclusively SUSE on one laptop and dual boot one desktop with Win2K. My other desktops have either SUSE/XP or SUSE/2K at work. I remember the big push after Novell bought Evolution and brought all the Mono developers on board, where they said, 'hey, let's all be one big mono happy family and everyone use Gnome.' Of course, us KDE-fans screamed and pouted and stomped our feet so much, that Novell pulled back to some degree.

I remember back to TechEd (or was it TechNet) 2001 in Atlanta where Bill and Co. introduced .NET to us as "the next big thing." Even back then I thought of it as a half hearted attempt to marginalize Java. (Not that I had any love for Java at the time.) Now, they have the market share they want, we've all got VS 2005 loaded on our machines (next to Netbeans 5.5) and those few who use Linux (including me) as a desktop may want to use C#/Mono to develop. Well, the problem is, there's no good IDE. Monodevelop isn't really up to the same level as VS 2005 or NetBeans (or Eclipse, for that matter) and is currently at a 0.13x release. Who'd want to develop an enterprise-scale application using that?

So, here's Miguel, who failed at getting us enterprise users to adopt Evolution, and he wants us to go with Mono.NET. I particularly love Miguel's naivety in saying he'd want to, "even go as far as Microsoft recommending Mono for all of their developers looking at migration." Migrating from what? Windows? Microsoft doesn't want people to migrate away from Windows. That's the furthest thing on their minds.

In any case, I'll stick to migrating to Java. Now that it is going to be truly OSS, I'll trust them just a wee bit more than our good friends in Redmond.

Forget dot net / mono, use Java

[d3xt3r]

Seriously, now that Java will be GPL'd, why exactly do we need Mono?

.Net only exists because M$ failed to embrace and extend Java. Why does the OSS community need a knock-off of a language that only exists because M$ couldn't control Java?

Re:Good Luck

[kosmosik]

> I'm afraid that Mono,

Dunno. I don't use it - *I* think it sucks cause I have installed some apps using Mono on my Fedora box and they crashed really bad all the time. So it probably sucks.

> like Samba

Samba? Well Samba is Samba. Maybe it lacks in some stuff that MS has implemented (AD and such) but still it is de facto standard for CIFS/Windows Networking on non-Windows systems. It is *the* standard for most of unices, NAS boxes, Macs, Solaris, Linuxes etc. So I don't really think Samba fits along with Mono or OpenOffice.org (read further for OOo) it is not even in the same league it is not even the same game. Samba *is* very successfull and fucking nice OSS project. I have like dozens of servers that do really weird stuff most of that would not be even possible using Windows. Like providing SMB services with custom configuration just to support really old (but trust me - business critical) DOS programs.

I've read about Samba implemementations (search on /. there was a "Ask..." some time ago) that do stuff that Windows could never (for economical or practical reasons) do. Like really wide WANS, really Terminal Services (what Windows provides regarding printing is a joke) spawning multiple operating systems into custom soltuion.

So *please* do respect that Samba *is* the killer-app of Open Source. I can bet that along Apache/PHP/Python/PERL/Java whatever stuff Samba is one off the most important projects that drive OSS adoption on servers (and also on clients - see OSX).

> and OpenOffice,

Well OpenOffice.org is a cow - bloated, big and slow. But still making OOo work faster (like throwing some hardware onto the problem) is cheaper than getting into MS Office licensing. OOo is *not* MS Office replacement (due to problems with exchanging documents with MSO - but hey even various versions of MS have *severe* problems with exchanging their documents) but as an office suite itself it is really nice. From my (company) perspective it does fucking loads of jobs right - it does basic office stuff almost right, it manages to interact with databases, it can do really nice macros/scripting/programming, it can produce decent PDF files, it can (due to ODF support) interact with other OSS projects (our marketing stuff edits our website right from OO.o via XMLRPC and eZ Publish CMS - imagine that). Etc. So OOo is also in another league than Mono.

Mono? I just don't see any practical use of it for me. Few apps, bloated runtime. What are the advantages? Java is much better for portability.

In fact,

[WindBourne]

had mono came out about 3 years earlier (i.e. during the early days of .net), then MS would have cooperated until they felt that they had enough market share taken from java, and then they would have gone after mono. Based on MS's long history of screwing over all their partners, I would say that it was very predictable what this outcome was going to be. What I am amazed at, is that so many expect different of MS. This is the classic case of a dog helping a scorpion across the lake and then getting stung on the other side. The simple answer, that it is in the scorpions nature. Well, it has ALWAYS been in MS's nature.

It occured to me just reading this ...

[Qbertino]

Mono is factually sponsored by MS. The Novel/MS deal was all about Mono! The patent-deal thing was a feint (with a neat side effect, mind you)! No, hear me out. Just reading his talk and arriving at page 2 made me notice it. I honestly believe it is and it's not that Miquel is seriously bullshitting about his opinions. Allthough they are notably influenced by black MS accounts - which I am now certain of. Allthough maybe without him knowing for a fact.

Figure this:
If there is any way MS can prepare to hop the OSS bandwagon that is continously growing without losing their face it is the mono(t)rail (pun intended). In a well built mono they can without haste probe the OSS market for sophisticated free developer tools and their chances to get into OSS bases servicing and specialized proprietary offers without thinning the .Net brand or attracting attention. All the while having Mono on the leash. If the test fails, they pull the plug, go completely off trail with .Net and leave behind yet another OSS plattform along with the XUL, Ajax, Java, QT, etc. bunch to bash their heads competing for attention. If it does work out they can slowly shift to OS independant services and tools. They can even combine both with varying intensity in which ever way they require it.

Think about it. It's a very smart move and not that a stupid notion at all. They can continue to slowpoke about with their bloated NT/2k/Vista Kernels and go 'plattform independant' whenever the need arises, squishing whatever Zends, SuSEs, Novels and RedHats get in the way. And with a 'Mono excuse' they won't even raise a blip on the antitrust radar doing so.
If this works out we'll see yet another rare of strange things: MS actually trying to build quality software again. For a short period of time that is. Until they regain their stranglehold. Then it's business as usual again.

No, friends, it's absolutely clear to me: Novel bought Ximian, SuSE and then some. Then they went f*cking around aimlessly with those brands for two years. They are MSes easiest, least dangerous, most hidden, most powerfull and - oh, the irony - cheapest way into a potential MS dominated OSS market. This is what's behind all this.

My 2 dollars.

You know...

[encoderer]

You know, this guy got mod'ed troll, but at worst I think he was off-topic.

In all reality, that is a quintessential Microsoft move.

Purchase into a market, then leverage their OS monopoly to drive adoption of SUSE, or whatever they may call it then. It's already begun, but imagine a version of Linux that also supports the ACTUAL Win32 API, or true cross-compatibility between Windows and this one linux distro.

Sure, the Microsoft-Haters in the linux community would throw fits over it and boycott it entirely, but the businesses that use Linux for web servers and db servers and such don't care about that. To them it would mean the best of both worlds. And in all honesty, they'd be correct.

Of course, it would probably be bad for the Linux community, I'm not denying that. But this is a very standard modus operandi for Redmond. It's certainly more than just a troll.

Re:Patents, again...

[wasabii]

Because he has an honest belief that a) patents are bogus and b) C#/.Net are great platforms.

Is that so hard to understand? If we were all so scared of patents, we wouldn't have a) implemented FAT b) probably not written Linux itself c) would be scared of our own shadow.

There are patents that cover every aspect of every system you use, FOSS or not. This is not an issue that affects Mono specifically, but rather our entire free software ecosystem. It's rather nice to see somebody who isn't scared of his own shadow be willing to take them head on.

Miguel, bajate de esa nube.

[Augusto]

(literally: Miguel, step down from that cloud - Miguel, get real)

I just don't understand your project.

Most .NET developers are not aware of your project, and most would not want to bother with it. People that use Visual Studio care about using the latest tools and APIs from Microsoft, and when they know you don't even have .NET v2 they don't want to bother.

"On the migration piece, the open sourcing of Java will not have an effect on Mono. Because the crowd that we are targeting is the .NET crowd which is typically not using Java. The open sourcing of Java will not alter the balance of applications that will be ported from other platforms to Linux. If they existed, people were already using the proprietary Java from IBM or Sun or even one of the GNU based efforts."

I'm so glad Java is now being open sourced, you won't have this as an excuse anymore. Why would anybody want to develop in your environment, which has serious patent concerns? It lags behind and has no serious number of tools for anybody to use?

Your statement about MS recommending Mono is bizarre. Why would Microsoft recommend Mono? The only reason for them to even mention your project, is in the chance a customer maybe asks about running in other platforms. I could definitely see MS just mentioning Mono to get a customer, but they surely will have no incentive for anybody to use your technology.

Finally, why is this project called mono? It reminds me of the phrase:
"El hombre crea y el mono imita", which seems apt for your project (Man creates and monkeys imitate)

De Icaza is a disgrace to OSS.

[Anonymous Coward]

I know a lot of people in the OSS community think of De Icaza as some sort of god. But when we look at his actual contributions, I think they've set the OSS community back by years.

Take GNOME, for instance. When GNOME was first established, KDE was already the premiere OSS desktop environment. There were some minor licensing issues, but with Trolltech's cooperation those were quite easily worked out. Regardless, a lot of effort was put into GNOME to duplicate what KDE already offered. Even today, we still see that GNOME has not yet caught up to KDE. And with the upcoming release of KDE 4, it's unlikely that GNOME will ever be able to catch up to KDE, let alone overtake it. Nearly a decade of effort has been wasted on GNOME, with so very little to show.

And then we have Mono, the subject of this Slashdot topic. Again, so much valuable time and effort has been wasted on creating a product that really is of no benefit to the OSS community. In fact, it blatantly stands against what OSS is all about. And beyond that, we already have a common runtime: the POSIX interface shared by Linux, *BSD, and even commercial UNIX systems. And even on top of that we already have many language options: C, C++, Python, Perl, Tcl and Ruby, just to name a few.

Like GNOME before it, Mono is essentially a waste. Just imagine how much further along projects like KDE, Python, Perl, and Ruby would be if effort and expertise hadn't been wastefully siphoned off to GNOME and Mono. It's quite conceivable that Linux could have been a major rival to Windows on the desktop.

Re:De Icaza is a disgrace to OSS.

[Tack]

There were some minor licensing issues, but with Trolltech's cooperation those were quite easily worked out.

The "licensing issues" you refer to were not minor; they were simply not compatible with the ethos of a fully free desktop. To the best of my recollection, at the time of GNOME's inception there was no end in sight to Trolltech's proprietary hold on Qt. Qt was GPLed at least three years after GNOME was began. Dealing with Qt's "minor licensing issues" was not as trivial and straightforward as you make it sound.

.NET 3.0

[Anonymous Coward]

And how will Mono support .NET 3.0? Many of the new features such as Windows Presentation Foundation simply aren't available on a Linux system. Has someone already wrote a XAML parser as well?

Re:De Icaza is a disgrace to OSS.

[Coryoth]

From the perspective of a FOSS desktop, if vendors (say Red Hat) can't distribute a derivative of Qt, then that qualifies as "proprietary hold." The ability to distribute derivatives is hardly useful only a "small handful of zealots." The QPL was just not viable for a free desktop, and, from a licensing perspective, there was still a place for GNOME even in 1998.

Indeed, from a licensing perspective, there is a place for GNOME right now, since GTK+ is LGPL: there is a reason that things like Mozilla, OpenOffice, SWT, etc. use GTK+ rather than QT. Yes, the whole GPL v LGPL issue for the GUI toolkit is, for many many people, a minor point that makes no difference. There are people for whom the difference matters, however, and as long as the difference in licensing exists there will continue to be a licensing niche that GNOME successgully occupies.

Just a few points...

[serge587]

When MS says "cross-platform" they mean mobile devices (running a Windows-esque OS of course). Look at the system requirements for the compact .NET 2.0 runtime and it should be obvious enough: http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?fa milyid=9655156b-356b-4a2c-857c-e62f50ae9a55&displa ylang=en [microsoft.com]

Microsoft actually released the 1.0 CLI sourcecode with support for BSD and OSX, and the license is not that bad, except for a small paragraph which prohibits any commercial use (breathe easy, the catch has been revealed). http://msdn.microsoft.com/MSDN-FILES/027/002/097/S hSourceCLILicense.htm [microsoft.com]

The people at MSDN aren't that bad, the marketers seem to dislike the smell of source code =). I've used both C# and Java extensively and there are numerous areas where C# shines above Java like types, generics and operators (overloading) for instance. There is a much higher level of consistency in .NET than in JRE in terms of interfaces and namespace/class hierarchy. Then again the .NET team had a change to design the framework from the ground up with all the features included, rather than Java starting out as a small platform and getting worked into what it is today. Java effectively has a monopoly as a realistic cross-platform solution, so it would be nice to create a viable alternative then you can actually weigh the pros and cons of both platforms on a level playing field, maybe even learn a thing or two from it.

Re:The point of Mono?

[Anonymous Coward]

Can you show me an example of C# subclassing Ruby?

I did not think you can.

The language independence is misleading, it is rather skinnable languages: only languages made for the runtime can do it.