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Open Source Helps New IT Grads Get Foot in the Door 128

Yes, some US IT jobs are disappearing, but Linux.com (which shares a corporate overlord with Slashdot) has a recent story emphasizing the job advantage that involvement in open source projects can give young programmers who aren't planning to ditch their dreams of making a living in the field. The article focuses on one programmer's experience with Google's Summer of Code, which led directly to her job working on the Drupal content-management system. But the underlying message (that involvement in open source projects provides a background of experience otherwise difficult to obtain because of the chicken-and-egg problem of "experience required" job opportunities) is generalizable to many other forms of open-source involvement. Do you have a job that you landed because of your unpaid open-source programming?
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Open Source Helps New IT Grads Get Foot in the Door

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  • by Joe The Dragon ( 967727 ) on Sunday August 10, 2008 @10:25AM (#24545309)

    But how does it help non programmers and PHB who say they want job experience in a office not side / school work?

    • by Lumpy ( 12016 ) on Sunday August 10, 2008 @11:16AM (#24545745) Homepage

      only if the office PHB is not a moron.

      If the PHB discounts your OSS work, you REALLY DO NOT want to work there.

      Consider it a "has a clue" flag in the database. If they dont like the OSS work, the OSS flag is not set and you should exclude that place from your dataset.

      • What about PHB in HR as well the other HR people.

        We want you to have real job experience and you don't get past them and to the real IT people who like work like that.

        • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

          by MBGMorden ( 803437 )

          Agreed. For my last promotion HR didn't consider me "qualified enough" even though my boss assured them that I was more than capable of taking on the increased responsibilities. In the end the job posting had to be retracted, and the job description/requirements rewritten in order to fit my paper credentials more closely.

          Now, this was for an existing employee (me) that was already known to the people who would do the final hiring. If you were some unknown applicant out of college however, you'd get tosse

      • Unfortunately there are a lot of places where that kind of reasoning is applied by almost all HR drones and hiring managers. That's the reason for me going back to school to take a couple of "mickey mouse" courses, to be able to put stuff like "basic linux administration skills" on my resumé without having every company I apply for a job with dismiss me as "another loser who downloaded and installed Ubuntu and now thinks he's God's gift to UNIX administration" even though I state quite clearly that I h

        • Comment removed (Score:4, Interesting)

          by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Sunday August 10, 2008 @01:29PM (#24546915)
          Comment removed based on user account deletion
          • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

            by mikael_j ( 106439 )

            Anyway, any place that looks at those certifications is likely to eat up anything you tell them anyway, because they usually don't know any better. A place where they ask you technical questions usually won't care where you learned the stuff, as long as you know your shit. I prefer the later type of setting myself.

            Well, it's not that these courses are useless, it's just that most of the stuff in them is stuff I knew how to do back in the late 90's (and which are apparently considered advanced UNIX skills these days, like building apache+mysql+php on your own instead of running Synaptic and clicking on Apache, MySQL and PHP followed by the "install selected packages" button). So I'm basically taking these courses so that potential employers will know I'm not lying about my skills.

            /Mikael

            • Why not just lie if you already know the material?

              Employers may check degrees but they are not going to check on whether or not you actually completed a couple of night courses.

              • I guess I'm just too honest, I really hate lying in that way. In many ways I think this is a serious hindrance when it comes to finding a good job, other candidates will gladly say they're experts at whatever the company wants them to be experts at and I'll tell the truth, guess who gets the interview/job?

                But honestly, I'm happier knowing I'm not where I am because of my own dishonesty.

                /Mikael

      • by kz45 ( 175825 ) <kz45@blob.com> on Sunday August 10, 2008 @01:14PM (#24546725)

        "only if the office PHB is not a moron."

        Not really. I see lots of open source contribution as more likely to leak commercial code into open source projects.

        Also, with the FSF going after all of these companies in court over GPL violations, why would I want to take a risk on a programmer that might "accidentally" add GPLd code in our codebase and risk the entire company's IP.

    • Re: (Score:3, Funny)

      by dvice_null ( 981029 )

      PHP: - Sorry, OSS work does not count, besides I have never heard of that project. Have you done any real work in your life?
      Linus: - ...

    • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

      by poolmeister ( 872753 )
      I'm a senior HP-UX & Linux sysadmin now purely thanks to free software such as GNU/Linux, BSD, HTTPD & MySQL which enabled me to start learning the concepts of Unix style OSs, databases and their benefits without having to shell out for expensive software packages and courses.
      These skills then easily transferable to the other Unix OSs such as HP-UX, AIX, Solaris etc. which you're unlikely to ever touch unless you're paid to do so.
  • Sounds like... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Shados ( 741919 ) on Sunday August 10, 2008 @10:27AM (#24545329)

    Sounds like its not so much open source involvement, but generally ANY involvement with your field, helps. And thats true for any job, any field, anything. In IT, you could simply do unpaid internships and get similar results. Its just a bit easier to get involved in open source, because you can jump in a project just by writing patches and open they get accepted, and go from there...

    But really, any field. Doing some volunteer work has always helped landing a job, its nothing new.

    • Re:Sounds like... (Score:5, Interesting)

      by Narpak ( 961733 ) on Sunday August 10, 2008 @10:44AM (#24545455)
      I guess the sum of the matter is that some of the open source principles makes it easier for students to access and participate in ongoing projects. Thus they can develop skills hard to come by otherwise. Only natural that this would give them an advantage when looking for steady work later on.
    • The point here is that it's easier in a field where open source software is used, because the barrier of entry for actual hands on experience is lowered significantly. You can just download it and submit patches and participate in the actual development from your own home, and nobody has to know anything about you, so there are even no prejudices working against you which you may often encounter in a job environment, even if it's just people scrutinizing your age or what you wear.
    • I'd actually disagree with that. People have circumstances and opportunities that land them different paid jobs -- and resumes will never tell you if they truly love doing the job. Many people end up doing a certain job because it falls in their lap.

      However, someone who volunteers with open source not only clearly loves what they're doing, but allows you (the potential employer) to see the quality of code they've created, how they interact with other project team members, and how they guide the direction

      • by Shados ( 741919 )

        Well, its why I compared it to volunteer work (as in, not paid!).

        You are still right overall, but one point where things clash (and why a lot of employers don't give a flying duck about volunteer work... I know... I've done a lot, and its extremely rare for an employer to care at all, though it does happen), is that on a real job, you don't always end up doing what you feel like. You don't pick your project, the people you work with, and if in the morning you don't feel like doing it, you do it -anyway-.

        Bei

    • Re: (Score:2, Informative)

      I have not only employed developers based on their involvement in FOSS projects, but actually use it to cull the list of prospects - ie no visibilty in a FOSS project, application goes in the bin. The ease of getting involved has no bearing on what it takes to deliver valuable code. There are a few others doing this in Australia, and although it may be limited I believe it is a growing trend. The reason is not the demonstration of touchy-feely tree-hugging volunteering by the applicants, but that the bes
    • Strange I had an interview in July and they told me my volunteer work did not count because it was unpaid. The job market in this town is pathetic and no I can't move...
  • Newsflash! (Score:5, Funny)

    by consonant ( 896763 ) <shrikant,n&gmail,com> on Sunday August 10, 2008 @10:34AM (#24545377) Homepage
    Prior related experience works in your favour when applying for jobs in a particular stream!

    Details at 11!

    • by moteyalpha ( 1228680 ) * on Sunday August 10, 2008 @10:52AM (#24545529) Homepage Journal
      I agree, I have been telling the women who want to be prostitutes in Vegas for a long time that I operate an open source prostitution business and they need to get experience if they want to be successful. I think that work in open source is an end in itself. I find that people who work in open source tend to be talented in many areas of technology. The open source is just a way to apply the knowledge in the broadest possible way.
      • Actually, as someone who lives in Vegas, prostitution isn't "legal" here. You have to go about an hour southwest to Pahrump.
        • It may not be "legal", but it still seems to be a thriving business within the city limits. Go figure.

          p.s. Pahrump is northwest of Las Vegas...

          • Oops, you're right. I was thinking southwest because you have to go all the way south around Blue Diamond to get there. And yes, being illegal certainly doesn't prevent it from happening. I meant you have to go about an hour northwest to where it's legal.
  • by 4D6963 ( 933028 ) on Sunday August 10, 2008 @10:44AM (#24545457)

    I've been working on my open source project [sf.net] for three years and that doesn't help me a bit when looking for a job in Dublin (Ireland, not Ohio). Basically there's a very few jobs out there in which you can program in C or anything vaguely signal processing-related and they all want you to have at least three years of commercial experience, don't care if you've got the snazziest open source project out there.

    And I've been looking for a job for over 5 months now, and mainly in tech support and system administration because really, no one wants to hire me for a coding job.

    • by angusthefuzz ( 1142679 ) on Sunday August 10, 2008 @10:53AM (#24545535)
      Maybe you should get off your ARSS and try working for a different open source project?
    • by epiphani ( 254981 ) <epiphani&dal,net> on Sunday August 10, 2008 @10:54AM (#24545549)

      I've been working on my open source project [dal.net] for about ten years now, and it has played a major role in every single job that I've held.

      I got my present job through someone I worked on the project with. I've been there 4.5 years.

      I also got involved in a local unix users group by way of hearing about it from some friends of the open source project. The connections I made at that users group have gotten me the job I will be starting in one month.

      My open source project, however idle it has been for the last several years, has contributed significantly and directly to my career.

      And I've been looking for a job for over 5 months now, and mainly in tech support and system administration because really, no one wants to hire me for a coding job.

      Get used to it. Unless you want to crank out business rules written in Java, systems administration/engineering/architecture is the place to be, IMHO. In those teams you can actually do work in C, mess around inside the kernel, and actually make use of all your skills. "Programmers" these days actually seem pretty boring unless you're working for a tech company that has an exceptional software engineering department doing something interesting.

      • by 4D6963 ( 933028 )
        Interesting. Well that's why I refused to go anywhere with Java, .Net, C#, MySQL or any other language of the hour because I'm not interested in most of what's done with these languages, and I'm not complaining that I have to work in system administration, I'd be very happy to have a job in system administration, or anything vaguely IT related. It's hard being out there without any experience, and my hobby projects haven't helped much so far. I really hope they will in the future though.
      • by acoster ( 812556 )

        Coincidentaly, I've landed on my current job (network programming for games) by doing some code for open source IRCds.

      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        by Glonoinha ( 587375 )

        You have the answer right there in black and white - and it's not the answer you thought it was ...

        I got my present job through someone ...
        The connections I made at that users group have gotten me the job ...

        Sitting at home haxoring F/OSS in your underware isn't going to help anyone's long term career.
        Interacting with other people, contributing to a common goal in a collaborative fashion where you establish yourself in the minds of influential people as someone that delivers quality work - THIS is what open

      • by br00tus ( 528477 )

        I have been a UNIX systems administrator for over a decade. The only messing around in C language I have ever done on the job is in trying to get a program I downloaded to compile on my particular platform. With packaging of applications becoming more dominant, I do this less now. Messing around with the kernel is also rather limited, other than say changing the semaphore and shared memory segments on a Solaris because it will be running Oracle.

        As far as an engineering/architecture group, few places I ha

    • by Lumpy ( 12016 ) on Sunday August 10, 2008 @11:22AM (#24545785) Homepage

      Because you are doing it wrong, marketing yourself wrong.

      I trot out my OSS projects not as "I work on this free thing on the side" but as "I invented and designed product X, I am a volunteer lead developer for Project Y, and I saved project Z and single handed brought it from a failure to a viable product.

      You need to take marketing classes, you gotta market yourself and network hard with people in the field. Hell get an article published in Dr Dobbs or another programming rag and your value goes up even farther.

      You market yourself as a one trick pony. you gotta have a list of tricks to dazzle them.

      • by Shados ( 741919 ) on Sunday August 10, 2008 @11:54AM (#24545999)

        Lumpy is correct, and that goes for everything, every job, open source, close source, non-software job, everything. All job market experts and professional resume writers will confirm it, too.

        When you write your resume (or talk during an interview), you don't say "I worked on XYZ". No one gives a flying duck about what you worked on, because there's at least 10000 people who worked on the same thing, no matter how niche. What people care (and not only dumb ass PHBs and HR), is your achievements. The net gain you provided, the "out of the ordinary" stuff that pushes you ahead of others.

        So that line : "and I saved project Z and single handed brought it from a failure to a viable product" is the most important one of the bunch, and thats a sure fire job lander.

        • by WATist ( 902972 )

          When you write your resume (or talk during an interview), you don't say "I worked on XYZ". No one gives a flying duck about what you worked on, because there's at least 10000 people who worked on the same thing, no matter how niche. What people care (and not only dumb ass PHBs and HR), is your achievements. The net gain you provided, the "out of the ordinary" stuff that pushes you ahead of others.

          So that line : "and I saved project Z and single handed brought it from a failure to a viable product" is the most important one of the bunch, and thats a sure fire job lander.

          Unless said statement trips the interviewer's BS meter like it did mine. A solid contribution to something related to the job or even better that the company uses is a better choice.

      • It's more to do with the country/region you're trying to look for a job in. Here in India, freelancing, internship, FOSS work does nothing to impress most employers. Quote one manager: "It cannot be counted as valid experience since I'm sure you must not have handled major responsibilities as you would now in a full time job". Yeah, single-handedly migrating applications from Oracle to PostgreSQL and deploying them into production in 2 weeks is not a job requiring responsibility.

        I show off my FOSS ( ayttm [sf.net]

      • by lysse ( 516445 )

        The trouble with marketing is that whatever you do, it isn't enough. Someone can always come along and market better, and in any case, the person who responds better to marketing than good solid evidence is probably not the person anyone really wants as a boss (unless being told to use X-of-the-week, even if it's manifestly unsuitable for the task at hand, appeals).

        If marketing is the answer, the question is wrong.

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by Splab ( 574204 )

      So you have been working for 3 years on the project, but hasn't managed to get it into a first version yet? No wonder you can't get a job if you can't show ability to get stuff out the door.

      Also, ARSS? In the beginning you called it ARSE - Yes that might be tong in cheek and kind of fun, but for a company hiring it doesn't exactly signal maturity.

      Remember you are pointing them to this project saying "this is what I can do!" and when they go there you show them that you are a lazy guy who doesn't get his thi

      • by 4D6963 ( 933028 )

        So you have been working for 3 years on the project, but hasn't managed to get it into a first version yet? No wonder you can't get a job if you can't show ability to get stuff out the door.

        What the hell are you drivelling about? That's like saying that the eMule project "hasn't managed to get it into a first version yet". Just because the version number starts with a 0. Ridiculous. As for the project name, when you try to think of an acronym for it you can only come up with A's and S's. And anything that wasn't an acronym sucked.

        • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

          by Splab ( 574204 )

          Then don't use the acronym, name it! If the name is too long, then rename it to something shorter and easier to remember.

          And just because someone else hasn't released "full" version doesn't make it right. You are the one searching for a job, what count is peoples view of your project(s).

          And don't get jumpy about it, I work for an IT company and we do hire C/C++ programmers, and I am one of those sitting across the table. I checked out your site and my response is the same as if you would have applied where

          • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

            by 4D6963 ( 933028 )

            Well thank you for your insight, I appreciate. I'm glad to know that there are people out there in charge of recruiting me who would dismiss my work based on the fact that its version number starts with a 0, like it's more important than what it actually does?

            No offense but I think I'll keep it like this, sounds like a good way to weed out people who need a clue ;-)

            • by Splab ( 574204 )

              Again, you are not reading my comments correctly. You take everything personal, when you are seeking a job its just business, but suit yourself, I'm not the one looking for a job for 5 months...

               

            • How are potential employers supposed to know that your project is of any value at all? Your version number indicates you don't consider it anywhere close to a first release. Your website says it is painfully slow and lacks precision. It also says that you've never really used it for anything because you're too busy developing it.

              It would appear to be a hobby project and while I doubt it is hurting you, employers want to see how it shows your ability to contribute to a product (meaning, something with a s

              • by 4D6963 ( 933028 )

                How are potential employers supposed to know that your project is of any value at all? Your version number indicates you don't consider it anywhere close to a first release. Your website says it is painfully slow and lacks precision. It also says that you've never really used it for anything because you're too busy developing it.

                Wow, you're right, I didn't realise until now how poor a marketer I was. By being too honest from an insider point of view I make it all sound quite bad. I guess I should put more positivity in my statements. And maybe a zest of sensationalism?

                By the way, isn't the list of things it can do at the beginning of the front page enough?

                As for that whole first release thing, I was pretty much planning to never reach that famous "first release" thing, as in, do like a bunch of FOSS projects do and go on with t

              • by 4D6963 ( 933028 )
                By the way, I just edited the entire site and made sure it always sounds like the project is the she's neat and that I always sound like a flawless visionary genius. Also I think I'll make my next version be 1.0 instead of 0.3. How does that sound, am I getting closer to Lindsay Lohan than Debbie Downer now? ;-)
                • Try adding some pictures to your site, maybe flash, and throw in a dancing poodle if you have time. A PHB is going to see an all text website with a lot of text and code, and his eyes are going to glaze over while his drool begins to obscure the contact info on your resume. Somebody who sees the presentation for what it is will still look for more information and check out the code.

                  • by 4D6963 ( 933028 )
                    Well, what about the examples page? Doesn't that one make up for the lack of images throughout the rest of the rest of the site? Not like I know anything about web design (I guess you can tell) ;-)
    • by DrgnDancer ( 137700 ) on Sunday August 10, 2008 @11:31AM (#24545859) Homepage

      I hate to say it, but that's a pretty arcane bit of coding you've done there. Having taken a sound processing class at university, I'd probably hire you on the spot if the damn thing works like you say it does. Purely on the "If he can figure out how to do this on his own, he'll probably figure out whatever I set him" theory. On the other hand, a lot of people are going to look at this like it's an impractical exercise outside of a few very specific applications.

      You might try volunteering some time on a larger project with a more understandable goal. This gives you a) practical experience working with a team (usually pretty important in development work), b) something that an average manager will understand when you show them what you did, and c) a potential reference from someone else in the team who is already in industry and thus has standing to recommend you.

      Your personal project has two thing working against it as useful "experience". First, few people are going to really understand what you did, or how difficult it was. Second, you're not actually getting what they would consider useful professional experience. "Real" projects are developed by teams, with schedules, check-ins and outs, a team leader that everyone else reports to, and some sort of hierarchical development plan. This is often more than half of what companies want to see when they ask for "experience". They assume people learned how to pound code into an IDE in in university, they want to see that you can fit into a dev team and do your part.

      • Bad me for replying to my own comment, but I've just read you response to someone else and this occurred to me. Have you considered going back for an advanced degree and getting a research job? Guys at universities and national labs (at least here in the US) get to work on esoteric stuff like this all day.

        • by 4D6963 ( 933028 )
          I have actually unfortunately I only realised this was an option in June and it was a bit late for college registrations for this year so even if I do it next year I still need a job in the meantime. By the way, what kind of research jobs? Don't these require you to have a PhD or something similar? (I have no degree at all by the way).
          • Well, I'm speaking from an exclusively US based perspective here, so don't quote me, YMMV, etc.

            Usually to do research at a university you have to have a PhD. You get your PhD, spend a few years (anywhere from 4-8 depending on job availability and your own record of accomplishments) working for someone else as a "Post-Doc" helping with their research, and then you can get a junior faculty position somewhere and start doing your own research.

            You can also find jobs doing pure research type CS stuff at the big

      • I agree with the parent that your OSS project clearly shows you've got no lack of raw brainpower. Kudos, that's hardcore stuff.

        However, there are MANY other facets to landing a job -- personality matters. For example, there's no shortage of brainy developers in the world who have that annoying know-it-all attitude. Yes, they're smart, but nobody would be willing to work alongside them.

        I'm not saying this is your problem. But if call center tech support is your last employment option, it sounds like the

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by Brandybuck ( 704397 )

      There is no ticket to a free job. If you can't sell yourself, it doesn't matter how great your experience is. But even if you're the greatest self-promoter in the world, you still have to bust your ass for that job. That's life.

    • by fliptout ( 9217 )

      After briefly looking at your project page, I am sure you can find a job that involves C and signal processing. Dublin might not be the right place. Why not look into moving to an area with more telecom companies? I think your skills are very marketable..

      • by 4D6963 ( 933028 )
        Interesting. I chose Dublin a bit cluelessly I admit, mainly because I heard a few years ago that Dublin was the European IT El Dorado, with the European headquarters of the big IT guys like IBM, Sun, Google, etc.. Which places/areas (in Europe/North America) would you say would be best suited for me?
        • Come to London, there are ton's of jobs here, there always are. I checked out your project a while back when reading a totally different thread and thought it was very cool by the way. I remember playing around with STFT's at uni. I don't see why you wouldn't be able to swing a coding job here. You might have to lower expectations though, don't expect the dream job first time, I had to spend a while doing tech support along with coding to give me that ever-marketable 'experience' and then after a couple of
    • by Zerth ( 26112 )

      Considering how neat your project is, I'm suprised it hasn't been more helpful. I've played with it for several hours, just creating sounds and trying to pluck out elements from music just using my eyeball and photoshop.

      Somebody should make "sound-o-grams" with it and use them with cellphones like those square 2d barcodes.

      To speak nothing of the opportunities to use the word steganosonography.

      • by 4D6963 ( 933028 )

        Hehe yeah I already had an idea like your "sound-o-grams" thing, it well be a spectrogram with a = sign at its beginning and end. You could acquire a picture with a cellphone's camera, then detect the two = signs so you'd know that there's a sound there, when it starts, when it ends, and the vertical and horizontal of each = sign would give you the synthesis parameters, so you could automatically synthesise a sound photographed from say something on a wall or a poster and hear it as it was intended to be he

    • by wrook ( 134116 )

      As some others have pointed out, you probably aren't using the project effectively in your resume and interview. I've looked through your code and it's reasonably good -- definitely enough to get you a leg up.

      So there are a few things you need to do. First, you should identify the skill sets you used to develop your project -- gathering requests from users, C programming, math programming, design, etc, etc, etc. Put these on your resume in a "skills" section.

      Create a special section in your resume for "O

  • Worked for me (Score:5, Insightful)

    by goofy183 ( 451746 ) on Sunday August 10, 2008 @10:46AM (#24545467)

    I was working for my university as a student in the IT department and implementing an open-source portal. Ended up getting a job offer with a company that provided consulting for said project. Now that I'm four years into working with the project and on my second employer (voluntary change) having open-source project experience while in college and after opens a lot of doors. Beyond just the development experience if you become heavily involved in a project it can also speak volumes about your interpersonal and team skills.

  • by Anonymous Coward

    I have created open source programs as teaching aids that I also use as code examples which I've provided to employers.
    That was a prime factor in landing my current job, one I've held for ten years now.

    The projects illustrated key elements of my resume beyond coding skills, such as project management.

    I also developed an open source program that was invited for inclusion on DEC's demo CD for their Alpha line.

    That was quite a while ago, of course, but I noted it on my resume and it has been a talking point th

  • by OpenSourced ( 323149 ) on Sunday August 10, 2008 @10:49AM (#24545499) Journal

    Do you have a job that you landed because of you unpaid open-source programming?

    I lost my last job for using the dead compile times for working on my pet open source project. Then I found another job, so you can say I landed there because of my unpaid open-source programming. Does that count?

  • My IT experience (Score:4, Interesting)

    by skyggen ( 888902 ) on Sunday August 10, 2008 @10:51AM (#24545515)
    I never went to school for computer science. I went to college for Philosophy. I had always been around computers since I was six. I started programming basic on the TI-99a at 7. Granted it following step by step out of books, but still the knack and want was there. It wasn't until 1998 when I was introduced to open source and linux that my career path really shifted. Within 2 years of working with Linux and open source software I had become quite sick administrating linux and as a by product decent enough to be trained on solaris. At which point I was hired by a contractor for our local school district as a helper monkey for systems administration. Since 2000 I have made incredible leaps and bounds, improving my skill sets to include networking, virtualization, clustering, and so much more. All the experience I gained was by reading man pages, how-tos, wikis and using the software in a dev environment. Now I manage all IT at a 20 million dollar a year company.
    • Re: (Score:2, Interesting)

      by Raconteur ( 1132577 )
      IMO, the best developers I've met have been non-traditionally trained. I have degrees in English and Political Science, and none in IT-related fields. That was pre-law, and when all of my friends started turning into lawyers I got terrified and bailed out of law school in a big hurry. As you already know, those who have an affinity for this field experience an epiphany when they discover the joys of code development, and that doesn't always happen with those who choose the career path of IT for reasons
  • A little... (Score:3, Informative)

    by 19061969 ( 939279 ) on Sunday August 10, 2008 @10:52AM (#24545521)
    I got some small-level consultancy stuff through volunteer open source programming but nothing serious. Employers value non-volunteer experience far more than just about anything else (unless they are deliberately aiming to pick up new graduates). The consultancy helps a little in terms of experience, but except for the payment, none of it was particularly useful.
    • Replying to one's own post is bad form, but I forgot to mention that I have come across people who have a strong bias against open source projects. I've been involved since 1999 but participation has ballooned over the last few years by people wanting to pad resumes. Unless a person has a "name" or a demonstrably high position in a large project (ie, probably paid), these people won't count OS experience. Some even count it against people. Personally I think it's best to not bother working for folk like tha
  • by Jim Hall ( 2985 ) on Sunday August 10, 2008 @11:01AM (#24545605) Homepage

    I got my degree in Physics, but my career path after that was in IT. My first job (January, 1995) was working as a UNIX systems administrator at a small geographics company. What helped me land the job despite having a different educational background was first-hand "experience" with Linux (SLS and Slackware.) I was the first at my university to try Linux (1993) so I became a sort of go-to guy for Linux questions when the CompSci students started to install it, and the university IT staff put it up on a few systems to try it out. "Something break? Happened to me too once, let me help you fix it."

    When I graduated, and it was time to look for a job, a friend recommended me for the UNIX sysadmin job at her company. The fact that I'd had two years experience working with Linux, helping others to install it and get it working for them, really gave me a boost during the interview. I got the job.

    Yes, this could have turned out the same if I'd just been helping at the computer labs (which I didn't, but others might have.) I think what gave me the extra edge was spending so much time with it at home, so when the technical interview questions came up, I was able to answer them very well. Nothing beats spending that extra time on your own desktop system, when you'll eventually mess something up and have to learn stuff on your own to get it working again and know how not break it a second time. That kind of "experience" says a lot to a hiring manager.

  • Worked for me (Score:5, Interesting)

    by cduffy ( 652 ) <charles+slashdot@dyfis.net> on Sunday August 10, 2008 @11:09AM (#24545679)

    First "real" tech job I interviewed for had a job description focused around porting and packaging software -- two things I'd already been doing for fun (building RPMs for whatever the current Red Hat was at the time, and porting software to my university's Solaris and IRIX boxes); the CTO (well, it was less than a 20-person shop at the time) was floored by my level of relevant experience.

    I landed the interview in the first place through some folks I met helping out at the university LUG. So yes -- of course -- open source experience helps. That employer was an embedded Linux shop, and learning from some of the other folks they had on staff (a bunch of kernel developers, including two of Linus's lieutenants, a gdb maintainer, and a bunch of other really bright folks) is what I credit for getting my career off in the right direction; every job I've held since then has included some level of interaction with the open source community, and I've had a great deal of fun.

  • I work on the OpenNMS [opennms.org] project and we have been participating in the GSoC. I have not been directly involved but I have seen some of the work done by our participants. It is interesting to watch them learn about how to interact and contribute to the project. Some of them had to learn some of the basics of the "work" environment like meetings, status reports, and meaningful commit messages, as well as how best to present their ideas. I watched one presentation by a student and it was better than most I ha
  • by mckyj57 ( 116386 ) on Sunday August 10, 2008 @11:15AM (#24545733)

    I built a business with unpaid open source programming. I say unpaid, because even though I was working as a consultant, the paid hours were very few and far between. I worked thousand upon thousands of hours over a period of years building a software package that sustains me to this day, almost thirteen years later.

    At the time I did it though, there was a dearth of open source software. The space I chose, the electronic shopping cart, was wide open, and people were crying for anything that worked and was supported.

    That is the key -- support. Decent programming and software is a must, but it doesn't need to be knock-your-socks-off great. If you can demonstrate you will be reliably there, month after month, year after year, I believe you be able to do what I did.

    However, I don't think it has much to do with "50,000 IT jobs lost". What I described takes hard work and initiative, as does any substantive contribution to an open source software package. The people demonstrating that type of ability are not the ones who are marginalized.

  • Sometimes it works the otherway around, as well. My company started using an opensource application, a coworker who was skilled in the language it was written in began helping out in development and customization of the app. Now he is paid in props/travel/little side cash by the initiator of the project and has increased his standing at the company because we use it so much. He knew nothing about it before we started using it. I agree with what others have said, there is no such thing as useless knowledge.
  • When I interviewed for the developer job I've now held for the last seven years, the clincher was all of the Open Source projects I had written up to that point; particularly my Yahoo group chat client (RiffRaff, which has long since become obsolete). Good interview skills helped, but the long list of useful (at least to me) Open Source software I had created was what impressed the interviewers the most.

    The general impression I made was that if I needed something, I didn't wait around for someone else to h

  • What about Linus? (Score:4, Interesting)

    by hemp ( 36945 ) on Sunday August 10, 2008 @11:47AM (#24545945) Homepage Journal

    Open Source didn't really help him land a job for what 9 years?

    • Linus was hired by Transmeta in... 1997? The Linux kernel was original published in 1991.

      That's 6 years from the first release of the kernel, mind you.

  • No post-high-school education here, but spending insane amounts of time beta testing, packaging, proof-reading documentation and generally getting my hands very very dirty with one particular Linux distribution landed me a job as a packager/documenter with the distro, and last month I "celebrated" my 8 year anniversary working with the same company (now working on security).

    The thing that got me in, besides obvious skill, was the volunteer work and passion I put into the company so the end result was they

  • Experience (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Brandybuck ( 704397 ) on Sunday August 10, 2008 @12:26PM (#24546241) Homepage Journal

    Some of you younglings may think experience is overrated, that your degree from a party university should give you a free entry into an immediately high paying job. But this is the real world. Degrees are a dime a dozen and most resumes are padded. You need to prove to us old fogeys not just that you can code, but that you can code well, know how to design, now how to work in teams, won't go on a three month drinking binge the first time you get a bug logged against your software.

    We want experience!

    That's what internships are for. But getting an internship is almost as difficult as getting a regular position. Open Source Software lets you create your own internship. It lets you put down real experience on your resume. Even if you have real world experience, a lot of your code won't be public. But your Open Source Software will be, and interviewers can see your actual code.

  • 10 years ago, when it became obvious that my old job wasn't going to invest in any new technology, I spent some time picking up new skills. Instead of the C/C++ that would have been on my resume from that job, I was able to add Java, JavaScript, ASP, Perl...

    I learned these skills while developing a web site on the side (w/ some downloadable code projects). Not only did posting my resume on the web site get me the cold call from a recruiter, but the web site also impressed the company that later hired me. Pl
  • Two points (Score:1, Troll)

    by /dev/trash ( 182850 )

    1. redacted.
    2. How does one work for Drupal? It's not a company, it's a piece of software.

  • by walterbyrd ( 182728 ) on Sunday August 10, 2008 @01:22PM (#24546829)

    I happen to be a F/OSS advocate. But, I'm a little skeptical about the career value of volunteering your time for F/OSS projects. The problems, as I see it, are:

    1) Most employers want five years of recent, verifiable, full-time, professional experience. That would be an awful lot of time to volunteer.

    2) Offshore, and guest workers are still much cheaper. Maybe it's best for Americans to give up on software development, and let the offshore workers have it.

    3) Even if an American can manage to get a development job, salaries are going down the toilet, as the market becomes glutted.

    Both presidential candidates, and almost all of congress, are pushing for more guest workers. Bill Gates is petitioning for unlimited guest workers. Once the election is over, I think guest worker caps will be raised substantially, if not eliminated entirely.

    • Re: (Score:2, Interesting)

      (Disclaimer: I'm the person in the interview who blabbed on and on about how awesome open source is as a career move. ;))

      This actually is far more an argument *for* working in an open source project than against.

      When people think about the idea of using open source as a career launching pad, they generally think of two things:

      1. It's volunteer, which means you're not being paid. Ha! Sucker.
      2. It's IT, which is a dead-end in the U.S. due to shifts in the larger global markets. DANGER DANGER! SWITCH MAJORS NOW!

      But

    • 1) Most employers want five years of recent, verifiable, full-time, professional experience.

      2) Offshore, and guest workers are still much cheaper.

      3) Even if an American can manage to get a development job, salaries are going down the toilet.

      So FS work won't get you a job at an offshoring low-paying company that wants 5 years experience for a graduate salary? Oh, big loss missing-out on that job... NOT!

    • I dunno. I do a combination of software development and sysadmin work, and have a major say in all tech hirings at my company.

      Frankly, time spent among the meritocracy that most large open-source programs develop is one of the best experiences for a programmer that I can think of. You learn to do stuff right, or get chunks torn off your behind when it's not. You learn that ego has no place in your profession.

      And you prove you can work to very high standards.

      We're not looking for ${EXPERIENCE} or ot

    • by ronabop ( 520121 )
      "1) Most employers want five years of recent, verifiable, full-time, professional experience. That would be an awful lot of time to volunteer."

      Please don't become a parent. That takes about 18 years. If you can't even commit a paltry, pathetic, five years to a project, why even bother hiring you? You'll be out the door too soon to really matter. I'll assume you're young, and know nothing about dedicating your life to your work, so "five years" is big. Maybe, as you get older, you might see why 30, or eve
  • ...are a big part of it. If you develop some software, and get it out there where people can try it, and comment on it, and you can react to those comments, it says a great deal about the skill set you possess. Generally speaking, open source is going to be the quickest way to accomplish this.

    Our CS students seem to understand this innately - many of them develop open source projects - small, relatively specialized ones that are appropriate to to some of the specialties that exist in our department. To s

  • In college, my roommate and I ran a pretty complex (at the time) local area network with Linux workstations, manually set up IP masquerading firewall over PPP dialup, shared printing, etc etc. This experience, plus the programming courses I took in college got me a job with EST, Inc - better known as the BRU Guys - now TOLIS Group. I started as a junior programmer but moved to system administration as that was a better fit for my skills.

    From EST, I went on to work for IBM, largely on my previous Linux and

    • From EST, I went on to work for IBM, largely on my previous Linux and open source software experience. The technical interview was performed by the Solaris technical team lead, and all the questions he asked were directly Solaris related, though I translated the answers to what I knew about Linux. Eventually IBM ebusiness started offering Linux, and I joined that team.

      Why, pray-tell, would IBM have Solaris people? I imagine even mentioning Solaris at IBM would get the AIX team to kill -9 you.

  • ..you are never "unpaid". Never. The immediate and primary currency -your pay- you receive at all times and in as large of amounts as you wish is other peoples code they freely share. You can take this huge amount that is out there and use it for any purpose you want, including engaging in this thing called "business" where you can get paid in another form of currency if you desire. If you want to know where computers and code are used so you can "get paid" in central bankers currency while working "a job",

  • by xquiky ( 901362 )
    I know that the open source community has given a lot to me. I have been able to tackle some difficult coding tasks by being able to reference works already done by some different open source iniatives. I think the chicken-and-egg issue about the developers not having experience but needing it to get a job, is definitely something that if the developer could show they contributed meaningfully to an open source project would help there case trying to get a job. It looks good on the resume. I decided to try
  • with open sourced direct competitors to large scale apps (smaller than, say, MS Windows, but on the scale of AutoCAD, etc.)?

    I'd like to see a world where those new outsourced East Indian millionaire and sub-millionaire programmers are forced to compete heavily with FREE software.

    Make everything open source and completely poison the IT offshore programming market. Nobody (at least no consumer, and few businesses but the really biggest ones) pays for commercial stuff because they can get it for free on freshm

  • Do you have a job that you landed because of your unpaid open-source programming?

    No, but technically I did do lots of personal projects that I wasn't paid for, and just never released it. Which most definitely helped land me my first job.

I tell them to turn to the study of mathematics, for it is only there that they might escape the lusts of the flesh. -- Thomas Mann, "The Magic Mountain"

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