Web-based IDEs Edge Closer To the Mainstream 244
snitch writes "Last week Mozilla released Bespin, their web-based framework for code editing, and only a few days later Boris Bokowski and Simon Kaegi implemented an Eclipse-based Bespin server using headless Eclipse plug-ins. With the presentation of the web-based Eclipse workbench at EclipseCon and the release of products like Heroku, a web-based IDE and hosting environment for RoR apps, it seems that web-based IDEs might soon become mainstream."
Soil cleaner (Score:5, Funny)
I had this great idea for a product. It would clean the soil in your yard. The soil itself would be clean soil after using the product. In other words, even if you rolled around in it and got the soil all over you, you would still be clean.
Strangely, it was a solution to a problem that no one had. It figures that I shouldn't get my product ideas from Bill & Ted
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I can imagine the EULA now:
"ALL YOUR CODE-BASES BELONG TO US!111!"
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Here I thought it was a Snow Crash reference...
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Oi!
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> Note to self, never read the last 50 pages of Snow Crash.
Fixed that for you. Loved the [:-50]
Why not? (Score:2, Insightful)
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I'm wondering how they would word their EULA. If they claim ownership of the code that's compiled and developed on their servers, that would be a deal breaker for most developers.
Otherwise its a wonderfully implemented idea.
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For precisely this reason, I would never ever switch to a remote IDE hosted by another company.
A possibly debatable secondary reason is just that I don't want anyone else having access to my code that is potentially going to be released as closed source. Everyone knows IT guys are generally snoopy when they're bored, and sometimes my comments contain profanities directed towards my users.
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A possibly debatable secondary reason is just that I don't want anyone else having access to my code that is potentially going to be released as closed source.
That is something you're going to have to live with, if your software is going to be a web application, unless you really want to start building your own datacenter.
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Measures to cut costs as you suggested, this being outsourcing of non-essential business or using third party solutions usually do not work unless they are done with brains and as that pretty much never happens they do not provide real savings. Spreadshit boys have their field day: once when they get bonuses for saving plan and another time when they have to fix what they messed up while doing it. As long as products still work all is well of course.
Do not misunderstand me - I am not against such measures b
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This has been my experience as well. At my former company, we had our own somewhat expensive IT and support crew but everything worked really well. Someone decided to save money by switching to Unisys for help desk support.
Direct support costs went down, but whatever they saved on IT staff we lost 100 times over on lost productivity from help desk tickets being 'resolved' before actual issues and it was a aweful. I have since left the company, but up to the day I left management was still happy using Unisys
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Focus on the business at hand (e.g. coding) and quit wasting time on infrastructure (version control, defect tracking, build systems, backup & recovery, server sizing, etc...).
In the past 2 years, I have spent 3490 hours on the "business at hand" (e.g. coding, documentation, meetings, etc.), 10 hours on infrastructure (setup and maintenance of trac, svn, backups, VPN) and 500 hours on lunch. It's a small company, I'm a programmer and the nominal back-end sys-admin.
We easily spend more time configuring people's POP & SMTP settings on their e-mail than we do on our trac and svn servers, which are used daily by 75% of the company.
The real infrastructure inefficiency happe
Re:Why not? (Score:4, Interesting)
This is rather off-topic, but Sumo-Paint [www.sumo.fi] still impresses me, it's not quite as good as Photoshop, etc, but it comes very close...
If Bespin, etc can get anywhere near that functionality/power... it will certainly be useful. Especially in classroom situations, where it can be sandboxed in the browser.
However, I am curious about how one would go about compiling, or is it strictly code-editing, online-only apps?
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Photoshop: $500
Sumo-Paint: $0
Value = Quality / Price
Sumo-Paint = infinite value.
Nice flash program.
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However, I am curious about how one would go about compiling, or is it strictly code-editing, online-only apps?
I think that would be the idea -- for example, Heroku is all about editing Ruby On Rails apps. I'm also not entirely sure I see the point if your compiled program is an executable that you have to download...
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You'd be simply astounded at how many people do not have laptops! /sarcasm
The 'point' isn't to be used as a full time dedicated anything, it's simply (in the meantime) for those "damnit, wish I had something installed that could do this" moments, however, "in the future" there will be an even greater desire for web-based applications, with the 15 devices people have, all being able to access their one home server, being able to run your favorite app *as you like it* from anywhere, on any machine with intern
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I'm a Sage [sagemath.org] developer, and our only GUI is a web interface. Run Sage on your local machine, and you serve to localhost. As Sage developers use the GUI, we're getting more attached to it, and we keep adding more IDE-like features. Recently, there have been discussions to make it easier to edit Sage directly from the GUI. With a little care and extra work, it seems as though we'll be able to make the system such that multiple developers can collaboratively edit the source, making messy merges a thing of th
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With a little care and extra work, it seems as though we'll be able to make the system such that multiple developers can collaboratively edit the source, making messy merges a thing of the past.
Right... So you expect less of a mess when you have different developers hacking away at the same files without a revision-control system to integrate what everyone is doing?
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It also sounds to me like something that would be *really neat* to include in a source code control product for teams. [...]
The one does not have anything to do with the other. One provides a managed place for you to put your code, the other lets you write code in a comfortable unified environment. Why would you want to integrate those two?
(Assuming just for a moment that web-based IDEs actually make sense for professional software development.)
Re:Why not? (Score:5, Insightful)
The one does not have anything to do with the other. One provides a managed place for you to put your code, the other lets you write code in a comfortable unified environment. Why would you want to integrate those two?
When working in a team environment, integrating the two makes for another channel of communication, especially between geographically separated team members (which seems to be an increasing trend in my personal contracts; I've gone from originally working in a company where source code control was done by shouting over the cubicle walls, to a situation where I'm getting up 3 hours earlier than normal to collaborate with coders in European time zones). It also seems to me to greatly simplify the autosave process if the two were integrated, especially in a web environment- thus capturing all branches of the code automatically server-side, for the project manager to integrate the final code for build.
Of course, this all would require at least two major advancements to the current codesets in TFA:
1. enough speed for professional software development (something that even current client-side IDEs sometimes lack for me, though the problem might be more of a PEBCAK, or more precisely, a PEBBAF (Problem exists between brain and fingers, instead of between Chair and Keyboard).
2. sufficient integration between the data entered in the client-side web interface and the code repository to show changes when two team members are working on the same source code file.
Potential for Netbooks (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm not too keen on someone else's server being the host for my web based IDE and holding my code but if they could make it so you could attach to any server (including one from your home) I would be all over this.
I know it sounds like I'm just coming full circle and mimicking mainframes from the 80s with the ability to cool and keep a quad core beast at home with a terabyte of storage mirrored across two drives while keeping a nice cool easy to move netbook
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If you are a vi kinda developer then what's the difference between using a versioning system (having the desktop as a SVN/Git server) ?
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Re:Potential for Netbooks (Score:5, Informative)
Setup ssh on your beefy box. Install eclipse. run xhost +
Now on your netbook ssh -x
login
eclipse&
It should popup on you netbook but be running on your beefy computer.
Re:Potential for Netbooks (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Potential for Netbooks (Score:4, Informative)
there is no need to xhost + your machine. It is the point of using ssh Xforwarding.
An other version would be to run your IDE from your netbook but alias make to "ssh make" or using a well configured distcc. The last point would be transfering datas. Two options are available here. Either you rsync them to the server, or you mount the code directory on your local machine using ssh, fuse and sshfs
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I wouldn't worry about it. Those who know enough to use ssh to start a remote X session will establish the connection via PKI, not xhost.
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Mounting via NFS or SMB is generally dog slow and not recommended. Using an intelligent IDE like Eclipse that wants to parse and index all your source code, and trying to do that on a mounted dr
Re:Potential for Netbooks (Score:4, Informative)
Avoid the "xhost +" stuff. From the netbook try something like
ssh -YtC user@beefy.box.com /path/to/eclipse
and you just might get what you're looking for.
- doug
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Technically true.
It works great when your netbook and your beefy computer are on the same LAN, but it's horrible when you're remotely accessing over the Internet via VPN.
No Machine's NX server makes X bearable with VPN.
I also had good results from VNC, so it makes me wonder if X is losing its "networking advantage."
Why not just LogMeIn to your PC at Home? (Score:2)
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Eh, running eclipse over ssh sounds like pain, but I was going to suggest ssh too. But I would probably suggest using vim or emacs instead of eclipse over ssh, because the bandwidth used from running eclipse might be horrid.
Yeah, just tried it on one of the campus servers. Took 5 minutes to start up, and another minute before the screen was actually painted. UI is unresponsive, menus wouldn't draw for another minute, and basically everything has about a 30 second delay. But it would probably work great over
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As others have mentioned, `xhost +` is unnecessary in this scenario and potentially harmful.
Also, X is a bit painful to use over slow and/or high-latency connections. For this, you may want to set up FreeNX. Once setup, it works similarly to X, only optimized for low-speed high-latency connections.
Javascript (Score:2)
Perhaps for your situation, a remote X session or RDP would be better.
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Hmm, I don't know. I see where you're coming from, but how is this more liberating that having a slightly more capable laptop that has a local set of dev tools? This is the camp I'm in. All the limitations of being tethered (by wire or wi-fi) are gone. I don't see how being tied down is liberating.
I recently upgraded to a smaller laptop (uni macbook) for its smaller footprint and better graphics, and for me, this is a near-ideal mobile dev machine. A local subversion repository that is periodically mirror
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Troll?
Oh come on. Disagreement != trolling.
I'm skeptical (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm going to remain skeptical.
Net apps are great, but their performance in many areas is unavoidably way below that of native apps. When you can do everything with JS, you can be reasonably speedy if the processing requirements aren't huge and your browser doesn't leak memory too badly. (Dammit, Firefox!)
But when you need to persist data, you have to spawn an ajax query and that 1/10 to 1/4 second (even over a fast network connection) just isn't comparable from the user perspective to hitting a local HD. As local mass storage switches from HD to solid-state over the next couple of years, the difference between native and web apps is going to increase, not decrease.
Besides, half of these things are going to be ad-supported, right? At least in my experience, the performance of most websites has decreased the last 3 years or so as they hit and increasing number of different servers. It's typical for a single page to load content, ads, local javascript, stylesheets, and analytics from 10 or more pages. Each of these connections triggers its own DNS query. Every connection and every DNS lookup has a %age chance of hanging for a few seconds due to network traffic, server load, or what have you - as a result almost 10% of web pages I try to load these days stall for a few seconds. Do you really want that kind of crap going on in the background while you're developing? I don't.
Hah! Just reminded of a most annoying example! Slashdot, for me, loads pretty much instantly. But every time I post and click that "preview" button, there's a five-second wait before the preview actually shows up. That'll be fun, and additional five seconds for every classfile save in my IDE...
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You could do it with google gears or another offline web framework. Lots of it runs on your machine without any remote queries and you can cache stuff locally. I haven't actually had to try offline google yet since I've been online the whole time though, so I haven't actually used gears exactly :)
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But when you need to persist data, you have to spawn an ajax query and that 1/10 to 1/4 second (even over a fast network connection) just isn't comparable from the user perspective to hitting a local HD.
Or you use something like Google Gears... But let's pretend we have to do it your way, as there are some advantages anyway.
Notice the 'a' in 'ajax'? It stands for asynchronous -- as in, you don't have to wait, the UI remains responsive.
Besides, half of these things are going to be ad-supported, right?
No reason they have to be. Especially the open source ones -- I think there is some real value in having a beefy machine that you own somewhere, and accessing it with a netbook.
It's typical for a single page to load content, ads, local javascript, stylesheets, and analytics from 10 or more pages. Each of these connections triggers its own DNS query.
In other words, it could be poorly implemented, and it could be slow to load the first time, until
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cvs on server?
compile via ssh?
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As for hardware, I bought an eeeBox (Atom desktop) to replace my wife's 8 year old
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I always find it odd when people lament how underpowered Atom-based netbooks are. Sure, they're not as beefy as a modern dual core desktop system, but short of video editing and 3D gaming they can still handle pretty much anything you can throw at them.
I use Visual Studio on my Acer Aspire One all the time. Code compiles a bit more slowly than on my desktop, but it's still perfectly usable. I love that machine, it's actually small enough to take places, and powerful enough to run everything I need.
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I'm in a similar boat, and have been working to get Emacs and Slime playing together. Then, I can have a nice sexy REPL running on my server machine, and use a laptop while coding at the couch. (Emacs w
Project files? Now we hide the source files! (Score:2)
Isn't using Eclipse without the editor kind of pointless?
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I'm quite convinced someone sufficiently motivated could replicate the Eclipse IDE in ASCII format and functionality in emacs.
Anyone?
Bueller?
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You *had* to ask, didn't you?
http://robrohan.com/projects/9ne/ [robrohan.com]
And just to keep the vi vs. emacs rivalry well fueled:
http://gpl.internetconnection.net/vi/ [internetconnection.net]
could? (Score:2)
I'm quite convinced someone sufficiently motivated could replicate the Eclipse IDE in ASCII format and functionality in emacs.
GNU Emacs has had Eclipse-like functionality for longer than Eclipse even exists.
Other versions of Emacs had IDEs that are still not matched by anything existing C++, Java, or C#.
Eclipse has a lot of buttons and windows, but other than that, it doesn't do that much.
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Hey, I'm an emacs user, you insensitive clod!
He was talking about an editor, not an operating system.
Is this just muscle-flexing? (Score:5, Insightful)
Don't get me wrong. . . I think it is an amazing technical feat, but is it really practical to require internet access for this?
I think it is time that we as a community get behind a project that allows these remote apps to be cached locally for fully disconnected use (with a desktop runtime -- something akin to Adobe Air). It would be great to visit the site once and thereafter run it local (and get updates later while connected). As long as I'm fantasizing, I think we should try to make this a standard for new desktop apps -- written like gadgets, but full blown apps.
What do you think? Are there projects out there that are working on this already?
Re:Is this just muscle-flexing? (Score:5, Informative)
Pretty much what you asked for. OSS, available for a large number of platforms, and already seeing some real world use.
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What do you think?
I think that I do not need web based applications. They are slow and do not do what I want them to do. It entraps you into a given view of your data without getting fine control on it. Can you search your mail on gmail for one containing an URL that matches a given list from a webcalendar ? No you can not, because you have no raw access on the data.
I only use web based applications as a remote access when I am using a windows machine (Otherwise, I can use ssh and X11 forwarding and everything is fine).
Mod parent up (Score:2)
If I had mod points I'd mod you up. The web weenies really have no clue about the kind of functionality that power users want. As long as the eye candy looks "kewl" and the app is "Remote editing! , woah!, cutting edge dude!" (they've probably never heard of X Windows) thats all they need.
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I think this would be great at work. Let's face it, when the network goes down at work, you're already pretty much screwed. It rarely happens.
Right now, on my work computer, I have the following IDEs installed to handle different projects:
Eclipse
VC++ 6
Visual studio 2005
Visual studio 2008
Lotus Applications.
VMs might be a good idea here :P But so would web based versions. All updates, library versions, configurations... are handled by a central web based app reducing IT support... (maybe)... unless the we
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I agree - in fact, I'd go even further. If only there was some way to run an "executable file" natively on my machine that could handle these kind of development tasks.
It could perform the same job as these web-based IDEs, but potentially much quicker, and without requiring internet access. I don't know if such a thing would be feasible, perhaps it's a crazy idea, but I can dream.
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>or even on your own server in your basement.
Which would make the whole enterprise totally pointless. Anyway , anyone with a clue about X Windows (ie not MS and Apple fanboys and probably no one who has the words HTML, Javascript or Ruby in pride of place in their resume) knows that people have been able to do this sort of thing for 20 odd years without going near a web browser.
I doubt it (Score:2)
It will either be a shit load of network communication (which will be slow).
Or a lot of client side caching and processing (heavy on memory).
IDEs need to be fast and responsive, a slow start is acceptable. You don't want to wait seconds for files to open, or even for code completion (and other nice gimmicks) to kick in.
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If you got a netbook, or lightweight laptop, and need to work on a file for a huge code project, this would be much, much faster. Even if there is a bit of lag in the UI. Your server (or server farm) you connect to is just about guaranteed to have faster processors, more ram, and larger disks.
Have you ever used the google apps? They are actually very quick and responsive, and work in a similar way.
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Have you ever used the google apps? They are actually very quick and responsive, and work in a similar way.
Just my anecdotal experience, but I spend most of my day in Google Docs spreadsheets that I think it is fair to call small (8 columns by somwhere between 20 and 100 rows). At any given time, there are zero to 3 people collaborating on the same document as me. It is slow as shit. I just sorted a 25 row column (just a simple A to Z sort), there was almost 5 seconds in between choosing the GUI function and seeing the result. It even lags when typing in a cell sometimes. I couldn't imagine doing development wor
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I can't imagine there is a netbook or lightweight laptop out there that is so slow it cannot run Emacs to load source files, which are just plain text. Emacs may have been bloated 20 years ago, but by today's standards it's lean and mean (of course, this means we've developed whole new levels of bloat in things like Eclipse). Any machine that can run Firefox can run emacs.
I guess it's neat that you can edit source files through a browser, and I can even think of times where it would be useful (editing fil
Another thing in the cloud? (Score:2)
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Do you think that's air you're breathing?
Hhmmm.
Offline coding??? (Score:3, Insightful)
mainframe solutions, mainframe problems. (Score:5, Insightful)
As people romance the scale and stability of the mainframe and move towards centralized, mainframe approaches, they forget the reasons that gave birth to the PC revolution to begin with.
Having your stuff on your computer is an immensely liberating act. No matter what the terms of service, your data is in someone else's charge when its on yonder mainframe, and you are at the mercy of their data center when it comes to performance, user interface, virtually all aspects of the system.
On the other hand, with a PC, particularly as applications move towards more open file designs, you get much more control, more choice, and as much power as you would like to invest in.
Re:mainframe solutions, mainframe advantages. (Score:2)
There are also advantages, its not all doom and gloom. As a user you get more power, reliability, centralized support, automated backup, universal access. As a company, you get more billing options ( who here remembers cpu and tape mount charges? ), control over your data, better security and application management ( licensing ).
Now, that said, having lived thru both ways, I think there is room for both datacenter and personal computing models.
Partial Bullshit (Score:3, Insightful)
Let's see
As a user you get:
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universal access
If the Internet fsking worked the way it was supposed to, I wouldn't need some other server; my own machine would be a first-class citizen, and so long as I could remember its IP address I could SSH in.
I used to do just this. I was at a university which had a very nice, rather open network, and I could access my machine from anywhere in the world. Why bother even carrying a laptop around when you can x-forward your machine to any of a thousand terminals scattered around campus? But these days I'm at anot
I can see it... (Score:3, Funny)
... 2012 will be the year of the in-game web-based IDE...
No mention of seaside? (Score:2)
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Is this the SeaSide you're referring to?
http://www.seaside.st/ [seaside.st]
If so, that was a rather unpleasant experience. The entire page refreshes on every interaction with the controls. That sort of technology has been around for nearly a decade now and has never caught on for a lot of good reasons. Not the least of which is that the back/forward buttons royally mess with the expected state of the widgets.
For an example, try playing around with this tab editor [songbirdocarina.com] for Ocarinas. It looks good on the surface, but after usi
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One of us is, anyway. Maybe it's me, but I don't see any signs of the technologies you're espousing. Perhaps there's AJAX and DHTML in the full kit, but their examples don't show it.
Go view the examples here:
http://www.seaside.st/about/examples [seaside.st]
Every time
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Seaside has been around for a lot longer than AJAX. It was originally designed without AJAX in mind, and by default does not use it so that it works correctly with any browser, even without JavaScript enabled. By most users, this is seen as a feature, not a bug.
If you want to use AJAX take a look at the script.aculo.us integration section [seasidehosting.st]. This contains a lot of examples, such as drag and drop [seasidehosting.st] where the server-side model is automatically updated.
Mostly, the AJAX versions use almost the same code as
Comment removed (Score:3, Funny)
Notepad (Score:4, Funny)
I have stopped using my local Notepad. I use a web based Notepad these days.
It totally rocks.
Planning to try a web based browser next so that I can uninstall Firefox from my machine.
In the year 2525. (Score:2)
At Google's moon base:
Bob17349: So Bob, did you get the webservers on Earth fixed?
Bob27346: Well Bob, I was going to but I can't seem to load the darn tools.
Bob17349: Well, if that doesn't beat all. I wonder how that happened?
Bob27346: Dunno Bob, dunno, maybe we never will know. Wanna go bang some moon rocks together, since we are out of golf balls?
Bob17349: Sure, sounds like fun.
Remote desktop? (Score:2)
This is a modern take on RAD (Score:2)
While vi and a Web Browser is good enough for some, I'd take just the Web Browser. Rapid development needs to break out of the constant theoretical-writing-uploading/saving-previewing cycle and that's why I put together my "eval2" project for PHP.
This video tells it better:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yfxrt2pc3pg [youtube.com]
While the example is ultra-simplistic, I use this every day for altering regex or otherwise previewing REAL data as I protoype code. Anyhow, the typical horse and buggy mentality backlash agains
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Codepress is just an editor. A potentially important piece of any IDE to be sure, but only a piece. You still need file system integration, project control, build support, deployment options, UI editors, code suggestion dropdowns, and a host of other tools and features that make modern IDEs useful products.
Re:Web-based Visual Studio for MFC (Score:5, Interesting)
I do believe you've been had. His comment about Win32 strikes me as the intended 'tell' for his sarcasm. The point being that developing desktop applications in a web-based IDE doesn't make much sense. Which I do agree with. The two environments are not at all integrated.
Of course, the AC conveniently ignores the massive business of web development which *could* benefit from centralized IDE services.
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I figured as much, but the prospect was too tempting to ignore...
I don't see why "real" applications couldn't be developed though, albeit they would have to be very limited in their imports and what-not, as well as almost mandatory open-source, and could be compiled on the host server, then spit out the executable back through the browser.
Although handling security would be a nightmare I would imagine, plus it would have to have an amazing code-analysis to make sure there was no infinite-loops, security-byp
Re:Web-based Visual Studio for MFC (Score:4, Insightful)
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And Bespin et al wouldn't be?
Never said it was going to make me drop all other alternatives, and stop using dedicated IDEs, I'm just more familiar (and preferential) with the MS IDEs...
Besides, i've found little, or no use for Inno, NSIS, or SharpDevelope, Java, etc, etc... but I have been tempted to try them all out, just like trying Vista, but having no use for it, trying CentOS but having no use for it.
If it wasn't for these temptations I'd still be using my C64.
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Idiot Dumbass Editor.
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AKA, a slashdot editor?
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Hex editor, you n00b!!
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Does "Web-based Integrated Drive Electronics" make sense?
No, which is why I investigated further. Had they spelled it out I would have known that it held no interest to me.
I'm a coffee addict and it's early; my old brain needs to warm up before it functions properly.
We also threw glowing discs at the MCP right up until management put a stop to our shenanigans
Coincidentally I just watched TRON two days ago. It's still a good movie, and somehow even after almost thirty years it's still not outdated.
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Ah. See, that's a different problem from the issue of spelling out acronyms. 99% of people "got it" as soon as it was posted. So you'll just have to warm up the vacuum tubes and pour some coffee into the primer channels before tackling Slashdot in the morning.
Besides, everyone knows that IDE (aka ATA or ATAPI) has been replaced by SATA. The IDE term is antiquated and only exists as one of those strange connectors
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Yeah, I first saw that movie when I worked at Disney in Florida (they had a pre-release showing for employees, in 72mm surround sound), and that was around '82.
Maybe I ought to replace my brain tubes with brain transistors, but then I'd have to wait for the damned thing to boot...
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Nah, you just need to switch to a Unix system [mit.edu]. The neat thing about Unix systems is that they really boot fast. You ought to see one boot, if you haven't already. It's inspiring to those of us whose LispMs take all morning to boot*. ;-)
* With apologies to John Rose
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Worst. Argument. Ever.
BTW, for those of you who think I'm just trolling, here's an excerpt from the book "When Computers Went to Sea":
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My point exactly.
Re:But... but... (Score:5, Funny)
Real programmers use butterflies.
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Is this how we're going to avoid any Eclipse based entanglements? Sounds like a lot of Tibanna Gas.
All of these comments and this is the first Star Wars joke. I find our lack of faith disturbing.