Open Source Not Welcome At Palm App Catalog 174
davidmwilliams writes "It appears Palm is seeking to follow Apple's footsteps in gaining a reputation for inconsistent and spurious rejections and removals of iPhone and iPod Touch applications. In this case, Palm has resisted including a free application because the source code is attainable elsewhere."
Palm's Zawinski Contradicts Palm SDK License (Score:5, Informative)
In September Zawinski was called by Joe Hayashi from Palm, formerly Senior Director of Product Management for Yahoo!. Despite the treatment from Palm over this matter Hayashi said "We aren't asking that you remove the binaries or source of your apps from your web site, and we aren't restricting anyone from distributing their source code, open source license or otherwise."
Yet the Palm SDK License [palm.com] (as linked to in the article) states under section 4. Developers' Ownership and Ability to Distribute its Applications:
4.3 Applications Can Only Be Distributed Through the Palm Application Catalog. Developer acknowledges and agrees, that absent a separate written agreement with Palm, Developer may not distribute any Application except as allowed by Palm's formal approved distribution process and channel (the "Application Catalog"). Developer acknowledges and agrees that (a) distribution of Applications will be subject to further terms and conditions, which may include a share of the revenue generated from sale of the Applications to be paid to Palm by Developer, where such terms and conditions shall be presented to Developer upon or before Developer's request for distribution of any Application, (b) because of certain laws, regulations, as well as contractual or other restrictions, Palm may refuse to allow the distribution of certain types of Applications, and (c) distributed Applications may be viewable or inspectable by third parties, and Palm is not obligated to take any steps to obfuscate the code associated with the Applications or take any other steps to prevent third parties from viewing or inspecting Application code.
Now this is assuming Jamie Zawinski used the SDK to produce the Palm Pre programs (I'm not sure what the Pre can run and these programs seem to be merely ports). After searching around for the terms of service for the application store for the Palm Pre, I came up pretty empty handed aside from the Developer SDK License. The fact that it says 'Beta' on the app store may make this forgivable but I'm not seeing a clear distinction on the fine details and legal on what you may or may not do when submitting an application. It appears there may be some internal conflicting views also -- considering what Hayashi said and what Palm did.
Re:Palm's Zawinski Contradicts Palm SDK License (Score:5, Informative)
The App Catalog is still in beta so the latest terms, etc are not there. I don't even know why Slashdot accepted this article as it was already debunked and addressed by Palm.
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But Palm has an uphill battle so it better get started on making a happy fanbase,
The G1 and the iPhone already have a head start.
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Indeed, and the best way to do this is not to become the control freaks that Apple are.
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Maybe yes. Maybe No. [wired.com]
"Tell me, do you know what this is?"
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Modded as troll? Come on. Apple is control freak, iPhone is a really locked up device and you can only get software from their store. On top of that they do not approve any apps that they dont like, even if there wasn't any reason for it. Best example is Google Voice and how FTC started investigating it too.
For that matter I like Windows Mobile. They will also roll out an official Store in 6.5 version, but you're still allowed to install any .cab you like and you are free to distribute your app elsewhere to
Re:Palm's Zawinski Contradicts Palm SDK License (Score:4, Insightful)
Modded as troll? Come on. Apple is control freak, iPhone is a really locked up device and you can only get software from their store.
The Pre and the G1 are already doing it 'the best way', according to you, and they're being left in the dust.
I don't know if I would have modded your post 'troll', but it definitely wasn't very useful for doing much other than getting argued with by fanboys.
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Modded as troll? Come on. Apple is control freak, iPhone is a really locked up device and you can only get software from their store.
The Pre and the G1 are already doing it 'the best way', according to you, and they're being left in the dust.
So you're saying that having market dominance means never being called a control freak?
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Modded as troll? Come on. Apple is control freak, iPhone is a really locked up device and you can only get software from their store.
The Pre and the G1 are already doing it 'the best way', according to you, and they're being left in the dust.
So you're saying that having market dominance means never being called a control freak?
I'm saying calling Apple a control freak then saying the Pre and the G1 should keep going down their failing path is useless.
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So then you agree that the OP shouldn't be modded troll for noting that Apple is a control freak. But you're willing to side-track that to discuss whether being a control freak is effective in the market.
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The Pre has been out for all of about 4 months, and it's responsible for 4% of the world and 9% of North America mobile traffic.
Not bad for that new of a phone that doesn't have it's app store out of beta yet.
The iPhone has a 3 year head start. I hardly think you can call the Pre failing when it's captured a very respectable market share when it's so new when the support infrastructure such as the app store isn't finished.
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Oh, and the citation:
http://metrics.admob.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/AdMob-Mobile-Metrics-Aug-092.pdf [admob.com]
Apple?? Control Freak? Really? (Score:3, Insightful)
By the way, I understand that Apple h
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Microsoft isn't entirely spotless. The only reason they're so "open" is that OEMs and carriers have the right to lock down the individual phones much more than Microsoft would like. They can ban Microsoft's app store from their phone/users and force their own if they wish... that's not "better" than iPhone because in the past it means not only are WinMo phones fractured by version and processor, AND individual models of popular phones have apps limited by carrier preference/branding as well.
In short the cri
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Moderation shouldn't be based on whether you agree with someone. That's the whole point. If you disagree with someone, then goddamned well enter the thread and debate. But to use mod points (like these idiot mods did) to basically bash down something they don't like but don't have the balls to actually to get into the game about is just plain wrong, and shows what cowardly, worthless, pathetic, meaningless little pieces of snot those mods are.
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What's stopping them? The SDK can be downloaded for free and has been available for a while now and is available on Windows, OS X, and Linux. There are several open source apps, patches, tweaks, etc on the various WebOS enthusiast sites. No jail breaking required.
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I don't even know why Slashdot accepted this article as it was already debunked and addressed by Palm.
*gasp* jwz is GOD ALMIGHTY. Every move of his is WORTHY OF SCRIPTURE. Those denying any news about him to Slashdot are tantamount to HERETICS.
Begone, sinner! A hundred XScreenSaver modules as penance! And it had better be downloaded through the original Mozilla browser!
Re:Palm's Zawinski Contradicts Palm SDK License (Score:5, Interesting)
Ah. The Palm appologist fanboys are already out in force. Jump all over Apple sure, but if its Palm then "Noooes, Palm is just working out kinks", despite strong evidence that internally the whole Pre developer program is riddled (and I mean riddled) with schitzoid internal behaviour from executives and others within Palm. And I haven't seen any sign that its improving.
Re:Palm's Zawinski Contradicts Palm SDK License (Score:5, Informative)
They have ALREADY said they're working with the developer and that it's okay that the source is available.
In private email, they did. And if you TFA (and the blog post [livejournal.com]), they said that "it's okay" before they released a new version of SDK, the license agreement for which explicitly states that it's not okay (which is the one linked from GP's post). So their position is at best unclear, and at worst - if you consider chronological order - they've rescinded their earlier words.
Re:Palm's Zawinski Contradicts Palm SDK License (Score:5, Informative)
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Re:Palm's Zawinski Contradicts Palm SDK License (Score:4, Informative)
So it's still incompatible with the GPL, then.
(GPL allows you to charge a fee, and doesn't allow you to impose additional restrictions on people such as prohibiting them from charging a fee.)
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How is that incompatible?
You write some code and GPL it. I take it and build it into an app. Palm tells me sure, I can put the app on their store, but I can't charge for it. If someone else takes my code and wants to charge a fee for it, they're free to do so.
No incompatibility.
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If Palm have made it that easy to bypass their restrictions, great. Everyone can nominate a friend as the person to be bound by the restrictions and submit the code to the app store, then ignore the restrictions themselves.
But somehow, I suspect their legal agreement has clauses to prevent that.
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That's a lot of assumptions.
I don't see why Palm would care. They don't want people selling other people's code on their store, which is reasonable, but I really doubt they care if you do it somewhere else. I also don't see what you'd get out of it. Unless their app store is a complete flop, your app is going to get more exposure there, where it's free, than it is somewhere else, where it costs money.
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Actual blog post (Score:4, Informative)
jwz: My ongoing Kafka-esque nightmare of dealing with Palm and their App Catalog submission process. [livejournal.com]
Bonus: Ben Galbraith: Thoughts on Palm and Jamie Zawinski [galbraiths.org] (Ben and Dion just moved from Mozilla to Palm).
Re:Actual blog post (Score:4, Insightful)
Good find. And now that I've RTFA, I disagree with the title of the /. post. It should be "jwz Doesn't Want to Follow Any of Palm's steps for Submissions, Equates Opening a Paypal Account with an Existentialist Nightmare, Even His LiveJournal Sycophants Call Him An Ass."
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Are you saying that opening a certified Paypal account isn't an existentialist nightmare?
Buzzwords (Score:5, Insightful)
I know. I know. I must be new here...
Re:Buzzwords (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:Buzzwords (Score:4, Interesting)
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I don't think we had UIDs pushing one million five years ago.
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True. I guess we should wait five years to see what the major opinions on Slashdot are today.
the GGP's point stands - Slashdot, meaning those who bother to leave some trace of themselves, has generally moved from Apple loving to Apple hating over the last five years.
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Apple receives a lot more attention, from a lot more sources than it did five years ago. Many of those new interested parties are a lot less willing to put up with Apple's shenanigans than its traditional fanbase.
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Success also attracts many people who aren't that desirable. At the start of something you have people that care about it. Later on, if something is becoming a big success, there will also be people that are just in it for the fame and money. These people tend to have a little less ethical balance.
Re:Buzzwords (Score:4, Interesting)
well... apple did a lot less things to piss people off five years ago, while the ipod was a success they weren't actively trying to kill anything and everything that could interact with it by any means possible like they are now.
The only thing left still relatively 'free' in the sense you can do what you like with it is the mac computers, almost everything else they touch these days tends to have a horrible taint to it of 'you will not do what we do not want you to do'
While I'm a linux user there was once upon a time I'd buy mac hardware just because of the build quality, but with recent shenanigans I just can't justify it... the perception of them has changed in the last five years, but for good reasons. (depending on your qualification of 'good') Almost everything they sell is in a walled garden, to protect you from *gasp* running something useful.
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well... apple did a lot less things to piss people off five years ago, while the ipod was a success they weren't actively trying to kill anything and everything that could interact with it by any means possible like they are now.
For me it's simpler. Diehard apple fans were a lot less numerous. I don't think they are any more rabid than they were - but there are so many more of them, and so quick to tell us how "if this was mac it wouldn't.. " or "on mac this isn't a ..." or... or...
I find the same attitude equally annoying from diehard linux fans, and diehard windows 7 fans. (I didn't see many windows fanatics before win7, not the way we do now.) There is no single operating system or platform that's a panacea. Stop trying so
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Previously, the Apple hate was technical in nature: "Oh, Macs don't have pre-emptive multitasking, Macs don't have protected memory, Macs don't have any CLI-- they must be toys you can't use for actual work!"
(Which completely ignored the fact that back then, Apple's UI was *so much* better than Windows, Mac users were much more productive despite the lack of those OS features. Not as much now that Microsoft's UI people have more-or-less caught-up, and Apple's been making their OS less usable each version. B
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My biggest OSX complaint is that it can't format stuff properly.
I just had to drag an SD card over to a Windows 2000 PC to format it, so that a Kodak camera wouldn't lock up immediately after it was inserted.
That's because OSX throws all these crappy hidden folders inside every mounted volume. Linux(Ubuntu) does the same thing. Windows does too, but for XP at least it was very easy to turn off. And XP has the correct (to me) behaviour of just deleting stuff permanently from flash drives, rather than making
Re:Buzzwords (Score:4, Insightful)
Windows? you compare Apple's products to Windows!? if there's a constant for Slashdot throughout the ages its been its complete devotion to UNIX. Which is why the Apple love was at its zenith two or three years ago, when Apple had an *usable* UNIX as an OS (rather than the bloated piece of shit that was 10.0) but hadn't started their current game of "let's cripple our own products for fun and profit". Or, at least it wasn't in full force yet.
But yeah, while before the criticisms were mainly about what Apple *couldn't* do, these days it's about Apple *doesn't allow you* to do. It's switched from technical to legal, as a result of Apple keeping a walled garden by means of NIH syndrome to an army of well-paid lawyers writing draconian EULAs and pursuing frivolous lawsuits.
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Its just gotten much more virulent now that Apple is acting like the Microsoft.
Fixed that for you.
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You're posting on slashdot with a UID less than 890721. No need to restate an obvious truth.
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Nice! It took me a second to figure out what your benchmark was...
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Funny, I'm young and in relatively decent shape.
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Hey i'm not fat, i'm just big boned. (And in my 20's!)
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This is in danger of turning into one of those "my ID is lower than yours" pissing matches, but I'm going to mix it up by saying that I agree with pandrijeczko: my dislike for Apple has nothing to do with it being "cool" or "uncool", but has everything to do with their corporate practices and pricing, and the fact that they're stuck in an old-school model of proprietary lock-in at least as much, and arguably more, that Microsoft. Yes, they do support a lot of open source initiatives these days, and I appla
Re:Buzzwords (Score:4, Insightful)
You haven't looked very hard. Most Mac communities are accepting folks who would rather generate content than tinker with their machines, but otherwise don't particularly sneer at anyone or act exclusively that I've seen.
When's the last time you recompiled your Windows kernel from its open source distribution, like you can with MacOS? Or used a Microsoft browser's nightly builds?
Anyway, I understand if you don't like the Mac or iPhone, but there's no reason to go around insulting those who do.
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When's the last time you *legally* installed your MacOS on hardware from any manufacturer other than Apple? Even with a few pseudo-open-source components, Apple is still vastly more "proprietary and locked in" than Microsoft (unless you are comparing Apple to Microsoft's console offerings, which, I guess, would actually be a pretty fair comparison).
You seem to think that "proprietary and locked in" is insulting to Mac or iPhone users; if you don't like using the most "proprietary and locked in" systems ava
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Whenever I want. Apple's window manager now, that they're pretty sensitive about.
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As a linux user and fellow Apple hater, I've got to say I think this critisism is a bit off base. In the very least they have put out Webkit which my prefered webbrowser (Arora) uses as it's rendering engine. Webkit was based off of KHTML and is as opensource as anything.
Besides that point, I wholly agree though.
Jethro Tull (Score:2)
What, you caught the virus Weird Al warned us about?
"(Look out!) And [the virus will] make your iPod only play Jethro Tull"
Okay, considering the content of your post,
s/iPod/$some_MP3_Player/g
j/k, I have a few Tull albums in rotation myself.
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It's a nice UI with no driver issues and a unix terminal. That's the only reason I switched.
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Got it. People who hate macs aren't just jumping on the bandwagon
...But people who like macs are just jumping on the bandwagon? Wait, didn't you just say "I just don't want you getting the impression t
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Apple is a market leader and has already set the example of this kind of behavior (fulfilling the paranoid fears of many). When you start noting this behavior in a possible up-and-coming contender, it's not all that unusual to reference previous history even when that history is from said market leader. None of this happens in a vacuum despite your apparent desire to present it as if it does.
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Palm, get your act together. Apple is "good enough," and the only way you can differentiate yourselves is by being substantially better. Treat developers like gold and get your story 100% consistent, unlike Apple, if you want to succeed.
Market follower, get your act together. The market leader is "good enough," and the only way you can differentiate yourselves is by being substantially better. Treat providers like gold and get your story 100% consistent, unlike the market leader, if you want to succeed.
Yep, it works.
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Erm. Define "good enough."
Re:It should only need to be said once... (Score:4, Funny)
good enough, adj.: 1. Apple, Inc. 2. Various words people have used to describe Apple, Inc. [dict.org]
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People buy it..
Open source IS welcome at Palm (Score:5, Informative)
I've released an open source password management app for webOS (http://www.precentral.net/homebrew-apps/keyring), and a rep from Palm contacted me to offer help in getting my app into the catalog. They have no issues with open source, and no problem with the code being available elsewhere. The problem here is that jwz got his panties in a twist, and he needs to take a few deep breaths.
To be fair, panties were twisted (Score:5, Insightful)
The problem here is that jwz got his panties in a twist
Actually if you read his original post, that is most certainly not the root problem. He had very valid reasons to be upset, and only posted a long rant when the whole process had gone beyond absurd.
That said, as others have noted Palm has already stated they are clearing this up for him, and I really think Palm is trying to do the right thing in general - they just slipped up very badly here. But Palm has a history of treating developers well so I would cut them some slack now that they have addressed this problem.
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They asked him to provide a Paypal account and he refused.
maybe we should try..
they asked him to give a second paypal account saying that the one he had given wasn't good enough; it turned out that getting the new one involved giving his bank account information to paypal, not just his credit card number; sensibly he wasn't willing to do this
there fixed that for you...
Ultimately Android (Score:4, Insightful)
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Considering the fact that you can put any application you want on the market, without fear of rejection...
I hate to be pedantic, but I'm in fact helping your case when I inform you that you don't even need to put it on the Marketplace if you choose; you can just point the browser to an .apk file hosted somewhere and the phone will offer to download and install it without problems (after you confirm you really want to do so).
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I've heard this same thing about Desktop Linux for the past decade too....hasn't happened yet...
Why bother developing for it then? (Score:3, Interesting)
Seriously people, you're the authors not them. You choose what rights others are offered -- that's the goal of Open Source: Giving you the choice, not them. But if you want to make bad choices about your intellectual property, such as signing all your rights over to a greedy corporation, we're not going to stop you. I fail to see why we're even discussing this, beyond pointing out so everyone knows Palm is not a company worth developing for.
If you're going to support open source, then do it already--stop complaining about companies that don't. In return, don't support them by buying their products. It's simple, really -- we like our freedom and we're willing to pay for it. Is there any other message we can realistically send as a community and have any credibility?
Re:Why bother developing for it then? (Score:4, Insightful)
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I am glad that this story was posted because it convinces me that I am right not to buy a Pre. I can stop worrying about it while I know that Palm is just monkeying around, and go back to playing with the Android SDK.
Palm's only partially getting it (Score:4, Insightful)
Palm is only partially getting the big picture of the iPhone's success. Admittedly, however, they're doing a better job of it than, say, the carriers supporting the Android initiative. The Pre is the closest thing to an "iPhone killer" out there.
But Palm, you need the apps. Nay, you MUST bring the apps if you want your phone to begin to compete on Apple's multiple levels.
I agree that the person involved in this Palm app flap is likely overreacting. And for the dweebs that don't seem to get it regarding Apple's vetting process for apps: Don't think the FCC wouldn't haul Apple to court (and the cell owners lynching any Apple employees they'd see) if Apple couldn't show that they've checked EVERY app they've allowed on their phone (and, as a result, into the international cell network) without reasonably ensuring that the app doesn't cause an individual's phone to die or, worse, infect the iPhone net (and others) with bad or malicious code that could compromise the cell networks. Sure, Apple seems sometimes political about the vetting (note a recent app about health care that Apple seemed to reject arbitrarily), but otherwise they're only hurting themselves if they don't allow most apps from being available.
The iPhone is (as a fan and an owner) an fair phone but a very powerful and extensible mobile computer and Palm must match that functionality. The Pre is it's only decent competitor in terms of its relative features, OS and flexibility based on its carrier's desire to support the hardware without butchering it down for carrier-only apps (**cough**Verizon**cough).
But the apps bring Palm only so far. They need a mechanism that isn't carrier marketing specific to support and augment the hardware features of your phone. For the iPhone, iTunes handles everything and fairly well. Palm must bring it's own iTunes-like PC/Mac application that handles syncs, mates with their new Amazon music initiative, can access their Palm app store, AND even (get this) use the approved Apple process for third-party iTunes library support that won't get them into trouble as they did with spoofing their hardware with iTunes itself.
Right now, Palm is shooting themselves in the foot if they are rejecting apps for any reason other than gross obscenity or copyright/IP issues. They'll soon headshot themselves if they don't get even a modest competitor to iTunes running, in my humble Mac-consultant opinion.
Dupe (Score:2)
Lots of open source apps on there (Score:3, Informative)
Slashdot getting weak (Score:5, Informative)
C'mon /. /. can and should do better.
Not only is this a rehash of an article posted before.
It is pretty clear from that article that Palm is doing nothing remotely deserving this title.
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/. can and should do better.
Should, yes. Can... seriously? I'd give you a "Coffee-spewing Hilarious" mod if I had points.
Overblown story (Score:5, Insightful)
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Neither you, nor Palm representatives you link to, have provided a coherent explanation as to why JWZ's applications are not published yet. He's absolutely correct - this sort of thing shouldn't involve any "reaching out" or "going through pains". Just release it already, or say why you can't. Meanwhile, all I see is a bunch of marketing-speak with "fantastic experience" in every sentence - a sure sign that bending over is going to be involved.
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it was in the first story. Palm wants $99 and a paypal account linked to a checking account to allow you to upload apps to their store. whether the apps are free or not. he thought he was above the rules
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Ben Galbraith seems like a sweetheart and everything, but his blog post was devoid of content. And so what if JWZ is an overgrown toddler. Most developers are overgrown toddlers. Their app store should work without phone calls. As per a thread in his LJ, if you've written a killer app or you are famous, obviously Palm wants your experience to be flawless. The whole point is that it should work for everyone else too. Even if Palm doesn't care about you specifically.
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He posted his phone number on Twitter?! Heh. Gutsy.
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Really? Lets take a look at what he said in your linked twitter post:
Now maybe I'm just similarly difficult, but that doesn't seem unreasonable at all.
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Old Palm vs New Palm (Score:2)
It looks like Palm seriously needs to find some old timer from the Days of IIIc and give him a blank cheque just to tell them what they have forgotten about the business of making a platform popular.
All this nonsense about a central app store (which was IIRC started by no other than Apple) needs to stop and stop soon because it's an unprecedented level of lock-in. Imagine if Microsoft announced every Application, every .EXE file running on Windows 7 needs to be downloaded from Microsoft Store [windowsmarketplace.com]? (which, by th
Palm hired Mozilla staffers for Dev relations 9/23 (Score:2)
Dion Almaer and Ben Gailbraith (worked on Bespin at Mozilla) are now Palm employees and in charge of developer relations. Obviously, Palm is taking the problems with their app store and developer program seriously.
And you know that it really breaks down to a distribution arguement, right? JWZ can distribute his apps through other channels all he wants. But for the official store, which is still in beta and therefore not a done deal, you have to agree to their hoops. Their hoops can, and have, changed.
Th
Moot point (Score:3, Funny)
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Palm lost the plot in the early '00s (Score:2)
I mean, the old PalmOS was all about supporting open source developers, with a free open source dev kit, emulator, all open source, no Tivoization. It's not Hawkins fault, the Visor was extremely open as well, I reckon it's those people from Be because the weird decisions started when they decided to dump the 68000 platform and build a new OS (that never got anywhere) with BeOS genes on the ARM so they could compete with Windows CE... despite the fact that they consistently outsold Windows-powered handhelds
Attainable? (Score:2)
I believe the poster means "obtainable."
Anybody watch "Castle"? "He also murdered the English language." LOL.
it's dead anyway (Score:2)
The new Palm is a reasonably nice platform, but it's too little too late. Before iPhone, they had a reasonable chance. Before Android, they had a fighting chance. Now, they don't have much of anything. In addition to iPhone and Android, they're competing with Maemo, Symbian/Qt, Moblin, and WinMo. And they have given up on those features that traditionally made the Palm nice and competitive: full programmability, simple hardware switches, and pen-based input. Android, in particular, offers the same de