iPhone SDK Agreement Shuts Out HyperCard Clone 610
Halo1 writes "Demonstrating it's not just about Flash, Apple has officially rejected for the first time another alternative iPhone development environment following its controversial iPhone SDK Agreement changes. Even though RunRev proposed to retool its HyperCard-style development environment to directly expose all of the iPhone OS's APIs, Steve Jobs still rejected its proposal. The strength of RunRev's business case, with a large-scale iPad deployment project in education hinging on the availability of its tool, does not bode well for projects that have less commercial clout. Salient point: at last February's shareholders' meeting, Jobs went on the record saying that something like HyperCard on the iPad would be great, 'but someone would have to create it.'"
DRM, restrictions, outcry (Score:4, Insightful)
Just imagine the outcry if Microsoft banned all other development environments than Visual Studio and .NET from Windows. It would be hit with lawsuits and there would be tons of stories and tens of thousands of comments dissing MS on slashdot.
People also always cry about how consoles are locked down. Slashdotters cry about DRM, restrictions and not giving them control of the devices they buy.
But suddenly when it's Apple it's all ok. Why the hell?
Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry (Score:5, Interesting)
"The best cut n paste UI of any mobile device."
That must mean cut and past on everything else is horrendous. I don't have an iPhone but I now have an iPod Touch and I use it around the home mostly for web stuff over Wi-Fi. Every once in awhile, when I am trying to scroll around on the display, the 'copy' mechanism kicks in and grabs some text instead. A minor annoyance and usually I can deselect it without hitting a hyperlink and Safari flitting off to some other web page.
Yesterday for the first time, I wanted to cut and past something. I've installed QuickOffice on the thing and I wanted to save some text from a web page.
Nothing that I could do, or figure out how to do, would trigger the 'capture text for copying' function that I've inadvertently triggered in the past.
That is NOT my definition of a good cut/paste user interface. There's nothing intuitive about it. I guess I should go out and find an O'Reilly manual for the iPhone OS. They publish the 'Missing Manual' series after all.
Apple's interface design decisions are always highly political and steeped in dogma. It's been that way since the launch of Macintosh.
It's good that you've stepped forward to be the spokesperson for 'the fanboys' Baselbrush... but this is developers.slashdot.org not your usual apple.slashdot.org. Don't you feel kinda out of place here??
Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry (Score:5, Informative)
The fanboys claimed that they didn't want all of that.
That goes a long way back. For the original Mac, the fanboys were saying "The Mac has resolution; it doesn't need color." (IBM had color. Sun had color. Apple was strictly black and white. Not even greyscale in the early models. Fortunately for Apple, they had Susan Kare [kare.com], who made the Mac interface look good under those limitations.)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
(I know what you mean, but...)
No, the *Mac* was black and white. *Apple* had color since introduction in 1977.
Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry (Score:5, Interesting)
Bullshit. 3G has a higher power drain, but not even in 2007 was it so high that a smartphone should've gone without.
This is why there will never be an iPhone killer. Better features are dismissed without reason, and any device offering all of the iPhone's strong points would be derided as a copy.
Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry (Score:5, Informative)
Hell, I used to have 3G coverage with my iPhone before I moved, but now I've got Edge only when I'm away from WiFi. It works, just not as well. I'd love for AT&T to get 3G in my part of Minnesota, but it's not like I'm going to get rid of a phone just because the provider doesn't offer 3G in my area yet.
Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry (Score:4, Insightful)
> I don't remember anyone saying that 3G wasn't desirable, only that it wasn't a deal breaker.
Way to pay attention to the world market. Much like apple does.
Yes no 3g was a deal breaker outside the us.
Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry (Score:4, Insightful)
Yes, and I recall lots of people saying 3G wasn't desirable because that's what Apple told them to say.
Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry (Score:4, Insightful)
See thats the way this works - the almighty Steve convinces you 3G isn't in the iPhone because it would drain the battery, despite any factual technical information being presented and the fanboys defend it as a rational because of a pseudo technical explanation from Steve. The reality is (and this is the way Apple appears to be ahead of the competition most of the time) is it wasn't ready, but to ship early the feature was dropped completely.
On a more technical level - radios implemented in silicon are really inefficient - even to this day. Its something a lot of really smart people are working really hard to fix, and even if they do solve the problem they can never get above 50% efficiency (ie - 2 watts in for 1 watt out) with even the best semi-conductors.
Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry (Score:5, Insightful)
Just imagine the outcry if Microsoft banned all other development environments than Visual Studio and .NET from Windows. It would be hit with lawsuits and there would be tons of stories and tens of thousands of comments dissing MS on slashdot.
Well, good thing this isn't about desktop OS's, then, isn't it? In fact, coding for OS X is free and unrestricted, just as with Windows. On the other hand... You know that for Windows Mobile 7, apps need Microsoft's approval, don't you?
People also always cry about how consoles are locked down. Slashdotters cry about DRM, restrictions and not giving them control of the devices they buy.
But suddenly when it's Apple it's all ok. Why the hell?
Actually, i find it's the other way around. Nobody blinks an eye when Sony, Microsoft or Nintendo brings out a new line of consoles, vendor locked-in to the max, only running apps that require their approval and signature, a process which costs tens of thousands $$. But if Apple does it for their iPhone, bring out the tar and feathers!
Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry (Score:5, Insightful)
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The problem is that the iPhone and iPad are becoming more or less general computing platforms. This isn't a matter of locking down a single, narrow media device, but a broad multi-purpose system. The iPad is a hell-ouv-lot more than a game console -- it has the potential to completely replace a laptop, depending on the user's needs. Apple is getting a foot-hold on our everyday computing needs, so when they lock down such devices they gain an unbelievable amount of control.
They are not becoming general computing platforms. They might have that potential if Apple were not intent on shutting that down. You have confused multi-purpose (Apples's intent) with omni-purpose (your desire).
By all means vote with your wallet, but quit acting as if Apple has done something evil. If Apple is making such obvious errors in their handling of these products, then surely some other manufacturer will fill the void, but no one is going there yet.
Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry (Score:4, Insightful)
If Windows takes the same route with Mobile 7 and doesn't allow manual installs then they'll be just as evil as Apple
We used to say "just as evil as Microsoft". Funny how times have changed.
Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry (Score:4, Insightful)
I have a problem if Apple had explicitly given permission for me to develop my app, and then pulled those permissions after they changed their minds, and oh, by the way, after I've already spent valuable time, effort, and development dollars on making that app. Isn't this what happened? Steve Jobs basically asks someone to develop this HyperCard. Then he turns around and says it is not allowed. Did he do it before? I seem to recall that Google Voice for the iPhone was a done deal, up to the part Apple rejected it in the approval process. Again, development dollars gone to waste.
Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry (Score:5, Insightful)
This is exactly why we have a Constitution (Score:3, Interesting)
The average person, even the above-average intelligent person such as those you find on this fine website, drastically undervalues hazy and amorphous future benefits such as freedom.
We have a Constitution, because if given half a chance, at every opportunity, ordinary men, and the greedy leaders who prod them on, would sell freedom up a creek for a little temporary gain.
If the average man would sell his freedom of speech away for pennies, what do you think he would sell something even more vague and specula
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Actually, i find it's the other way around. Nobody blinks an eye when Sony, Microsoft or Nintendo brings out a new line of consoles, vendor locked-in to the max, only running apps that require their approval and signature, a process which costs tens of thousands $$. But if Apple does it for their iPhone, bring out the tar and feathers!
Yeah, tell me about it!!! And just like Sony, Microsoft and Nintendo I can't use cross-platform development to.... oh wait...
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Of the 4 Apple is the most cross platform friendly. It supports OpenGL ES, c++ and OpenAL. Sony and Nintendo have c++ and a api similiar to OpenGL ES. Microsoft just has c++.
InformationWeek on Windows Phone 7's app store (Score:5, Informative)
Do you mean to say that Microsoft is now going to force developers to publish through its app store and nothing else?
This appears correct.
I did not know that. Citation needed please.
From this InformationWeek article [informationweek.com]: "All apps must be approved by Microsoft, and can only be distributed via the Windows Marketplace for Mobile."
XNA Creators Club (Score:5, Interesting)
Microsoft is doing what it always does: Copying.
But in this case, the copying went the other way around. Microsoft had the XNA Creators Club ($99 per year) and Xbox Live Indie Games several months before Apple had the iPhone Developer Program ($99 per year) and App Store. This is just Microsoft extending the XNA model to phones.
Re:InformationWeek on Windows Phone 7's app store (Score:5, Insightful)
Android probably never will go down that route, and as a result, no matter how successful Android phones become in the market, Android apps will never be as successful as iPhone apps.
not true, Android Marketplace? [android.com]
The only problem is convincing developers there's a market there, or that developing for generic devices with any number of different features is a good idea.
Re:InformationWeek on Windows Phone 7's app store (Score:4, Interesting)
What are you talking about? Android has the best of both worlds - by default you can ONLY install apps via the marketplace, and some cost - some don't - but billing is unified.
You can fiddle with a preference in the phone and get all kinds of dire warnings about security, but it will let you install from another source if wanted.
Re:InformationWeek on Windows Phone 7's app store (Score:4, Interesting)
Android probably never will go down that route, and as a result, no matter how successful Android phones become in the market, Android apps will never be as successful as iPhone apps.
Do you have any idea what you're talking about? Apparently the reality-distortion field extends to Slashdot. Android phones are going to leave (are leaving) iPhone sales in the dust. Fragmentation is an issue, but that's no more a problem, when you get right down to it, than that faced by PC developers every day. And there is this thing called the "Android Market" where you can (yes, it's true!) buy applications! Amazing, isn't it, that someone was able to come up with something that's just as functional as an Apple product? More to the point, a developer can sign up for the market for the princely sum of $25, and the SDKs are free (yes, free.) None of Apple and Job's bullshit with non-disclosure agreements, limits on what tools you can use and, for me, the capper of suffering Apple's utterly drain-bamaged and developer-unfriendly approval process. Jobs is an arrogant ass who cannot be trusted who will cheerfully screw over an individual or company that wants to sell software for the iPhone, often for no readily-apparent reason. Frankly, Google has been pretty damned non-Evil when it comes to managing their Market, in how they treat both developers and users ... Apple has been decidedly otherwise. As a software developer, I want nothing whatsoever to do with Apple, Steve Jobs or an iAnything.
Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry (Score:5, Funny)
Imagine what would happen if Apple discontinued the MacBook (not Pro) in favor of the iPad XL
The proper name is maxiPad.
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Yes, as long as Apple continues to make the iMac and MacBook and doesn't try to pitch the iPad as a replacement for them. The problem is that while most PC makers have a small (10"), medium (13"), and desktop replacement (15-17") laptop, Apple makes iPad instead of a MacBook mini. Imagine what would happen if Apple discontinued the MacBook (not Pro) in favor of the iPad XL.
This is a very weak argument based on conjecture and nothing more. The fact is that Steve Jobs sees no future in netbooks and Apple won't be producing one any time soon. The iPad isn't a netbook, it's a device for what many people do with netbooks - surf the web and kill time.
You might as well have said "Imagine what would happen if Steve Jobs' One More Thing this year is that Apple is invading Poland?"
Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry (Score:5, Insightful)
First, Apple is not a convicted monopolist like Microsoft [albion.com], second, I don't think this move is cool either, but it's totally legal.
Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry (Score:5, Insightful)
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If you worked for Google, yes.
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Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry (Score:5, Informative)
First, Apple is not a convicted monopolist like Microsoft [albion.com]
Neither is Microsoft a 'convicted monopolist' - the case against them was a civil action, you can only be convicted of something in a criminal court. The term 'convicted monopolist' is nothing more than a slashdot marketing term.
Convicted Monopolist My Arse (Score:5, Insightful)
I hate it when people trot out that tired convicted monopolist argument.
So if tomorrow the Supreme Court found Apple to be a monopolist with regards to smartphones (setting aside all plausibility arguments as to such, this is a hypothetical), I presume that would make you say what Apple is doing is wrong?
I somehow doubt that would be the case for most people that raise the convicted monopolist argument.
Legality is not the same as morality.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Neither were Microsoft back in the 80's. I love the knee jerk fanboy response "but Microsoft is a Monopoly" argument as it completely ignores that Apple is doing the same things that Microsoft did before it was convicted as an abusive monopoly. Fanboys, you must also include the word "abusive" as that is the operative word, MS wasn't convicted of being a monopoly, that is 100%
Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry (Score:5, Interesting)
See, I think (and I think some people on here might agree) is that yes: We don't like the business practices of Apple. But somewhere deep down inside, we want to see what will happen when Apple does these kinds of things. We're silently hoping that it shuns developers to other platforms, thus weakening Apple's product as a whole, and we can finally say "I told you so" when their stocks drop from bad ideas such as this.
On the other hand, we also like the idea of "Apple has the freedom to do what they want with their product" (notice that I cannot purchase a Microsoft Desktop, they don't have the full verticle control thing going on). It seems if we press on locking them down, the whole system will be locked down, and thats not good for everyone.
So we give them a bit of leniency because they are kind of our guinea pig. Big enough to try things out, but we don't have to depend on them.
Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry (Score:5, Insightful)
Actually I don't really care.
Apple isn't a monopoly and makes some really good stuff.
As a developer I don't care as I can pick what platform I want to work on.
I gave up passionately caring about a platform when the Amiga failed to get any traction when it was better in every way than the PC was.
Apple, Microsoft, Google, HP, Intel, and AMD are all just companies that I buy products from when I like them. They do not pay my bills.
Software patents "There should be no such thing" I care about.
The DMCA "stupid and harmful" I care about.
The RIAA and MPAA acting like an arm of the government I care about.
Apple telling people they can not sell iPorn or write in Flash for the iPhone? Who cares? Pick a different platform folks. These rules do not have the force of law and really have nothing to do with your rights or freedoms.
Long view (Score:5, Insightful)
If we were all guaranteed with a crystal ball that Apple would forever remain a niche player and that the iPhone/iPad mobile ecosystem would not become the dominant paradigm of mobile computing, then I would agree with you. However, given Apple's current trajectory, this conclusion is by no means clear to me. So in the meantime, I am trying to prevent that from happening, but raising attention to the bad things that would happen if Apple's current growth continues unimpeded.
This is about rights and freedoms. Freedom of choice is meaningless if when the time comes to make a choice, there is only one thing to choose from.
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Then they would have a monopoly and then it would be illegal.
Until then everything they are doing is very legal.
It is not all that different than a movie studio saying that it would only produce g and pg movies.
But frankly having a smart phone isn't a right at all. And right now the best way to keep Apple from having a monopoly is to not buy an iPhone.
Anything else is just really flopping about.
Everybody that buys an iphone even if they don't like the restrictions is just saying "it doesn't really matter to
Legality == Morality? (Score:3, Insightful)
You say you don't care about Apple's draconian actions in your original post.
You then respond to me and imply that you would care if they had an illegal monopoly.
So would it be accurate to characterize your belief as you only care about things, and think they're bad, if they're illegal? For example, if it were legal to have a monopoly, you would not care if a company had a monopoly and exercised it in an anti-competitive fashion?
Personally, I find things good or bad, generally irrespective of what the law s
Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry (Score:4, Interesting)
You mean like they do on the XBox and the Zune?
And we really do not know what they will do with WIndows Phone 7... Hey they took out copy and paste and multitasking to copy the iPhone so who knows.
And yes people are crabbing to high heaven about Apple. The thing is the answer is simple. Buy and Android phone or a Palm WebOS phone like my wife and I did.
Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry (Score:4, Insightful)
You can develop however you like on OS X, which would be the analogous case to developing on Windows.
This article is about what are essentially embedded devices, which Apple (for better or worse) sees as a different set of use cases for consumers and, as a consequence, developers.
No MacBook mini (Score:3, Interesting)
You can develop however you like on OS X, which would be the analogous case to developing on Windows.
Find me a 10" MacBook on Apple's web site. The closest thing is iPad.
Re:No MacBook mini (Score:4, Insightful)
Eh, nowhere in my post do I reference individual Macbook models, or Macbooks in general. There is also no "rugged Macbook" (which I would love), etc. I guess I don't understand your argument here.
Regardless of what hardware they offer, when it comes to developing for OS X it's like any other operating system, and that will never change.
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You can develop however you like on OS X, which would be the analogous case to developing on Windows.
Find me a 10" MacBook on Apple's web site. The closest thing is iPad.
Why do you need a "MacBook mini"?
For the same reason that anyone else needs a 10" laptop: limited physical space. I seem to remember that either AT&T or a netbook maker ran a TV ad about a netbook (in flight mode) fitting into a coach airplane seat, while the seat in front got in the way of a larger laptop's screen.
And consider the "Homepage" at the top of your post. I use my Dell Mini 10 to develop homebrew games for at least one game console.
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I don't care if it's arbitrary to you or not. Apple sees them as such, so that's how it is. If you don't like it, that's excellent, there are many other products for you to choose from.
And your paranoia is absurd - "a grim digital dark age for humanity" thanks to Apple's sdk limitations, hahaha.
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You've got your PCs running Windows. With the exception of kernel driver signing requirements on 64-bit Vista and later, you can pretty much do whatever the fuck you want.
Then you have the Xbox360. Here, you can either pay nontrivial money to be Microsoft's special development buddy, and do native development and have your binaries cryptographically b
Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry (Score:5, Informative)
Actually, Microsoft is banning all other environments other than .Net from WinMo 7. That was the reasob cited for FireFox not to create a port for it.
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Why compare apples to oranges? Windows and Mac OS X are comparable, and neither sets any restrictions on what tools you use.
iPhone OS and Windows Mobile/Windows Phone 7 Series is comparable, and both set such restrictions in place.
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Uhm, I hate to say this, but that is how Windows Phone 7 will work - no native code, Silverlight only. And only apps approved by MS, thought the MS app store.
Like Microsoft with Windows, Apple does not place any of these restrictions on OS X, just iPhone OS.
Wrong or right, each can have their own opinion, but you can not compare iPhone to Windows. Compare iPhone to WinMo7 and Windows to OS X. Looks like the two companies are not so different in their policies after all.
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Mod that guy down, 100% wrong - this is not about coding desktop apps, which are totally unrestricted on OS X.
This is about phone development, where MS and Apple's approaches are markedly similar.
Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry (Score:5, Insightful)
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Think of the PC in the 90's. If you want the best games, applications, etc, you need a PC. If you're making something, chances are your platform is a PC. Microsoft's control of the platform extended out into control over the world. Sure, Apple hadn't completely failed. Amiga devotees were eagerly expecting the second coming. But Microsoft's monopoly was unassailable, and was weilded like a sledgehammer against its enemies.
Now, communications and daily use are switching over to phones. PC gaming is a
When not if (Score:3, Interesting)
The PC is going to become a niche product. It's only a question of when and not if.
We've already seen this once when desktops were turned into a niche product by laptops. Laptops already have "good enough" power for anything any mainstream user needs.
When a mobile phone has the same power as your current general purpose computer, what do you think the sales of general purpose computers is going to look like?
Bearing in mind that cutting edge mobile phones can already be hooked up to external keyboards and mo
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The PC always was a niche product among gamers. Consoles are nothing new. All that's happened is that the console market has grown massively, while the PC market hasn't.
Let's get back to the real world and markets that matter. Business, for example, where (much as many of us wish it were otherwise) there is no sign whatsoever of any imminent shift away from Microsoft products on fat-client PCs.
Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry (Score:4, Informative)
I can attest to laptops failing significantly faster than desktops, being more expensive per performance, being more expensive for maintenance, and being very limited in upgradeability. Desktops will have a place among those with extra cubic feet and a budget for the forseeable future.
Phone alone (Score:4, Interesting)
I don't know anyone here in the US personally who gets by with their iPad/iPhone alone
That's because it has to be synced to iTunes before it will work. Once Apple drops that restriction, watch people start "get[ting] by with their iPad/iPhone alone". A lot of people in Japan, where homes are smaller due to exorbitant land values, already get buy with other models of phone alone.
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Ha,
That's gold Jerry, Gold.
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Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry (Score:4, Insightful)
That, and the fact they don't have anywhere near a monopoly or even a plurality on the mobile computer market. But that's just a minor thing compared to marketing, of course.
Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry (Score:5, Insightful)
they're lack of a monopoly is what makes it legal but it doesn't make it any more right
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
I'm pretty sure it does... If Apple had a monopoly like Microsoft's, consumers would have no ready way to evade Apple's restrictions. Thus, the market would no longer function properly, in that Apple could get away with diminishing the value of their product to end users without having to worry about pricing in a corresponding drop in demand. As it is, if you don't like Apple's practices, you can buy a different phone or write apps for a different platform. So, no, I think that if Apple had a monopoly like
Apple is a monopolist...but gets off on definition (Score:4, Interesting)
That's only because of the limited and artificial way in which 'monopoly' is defined'.
If apple computers were "PC-compatible" and could run all PC programs just as well as any Win7 box, then I'd say they can be judged in the same class. But that's not the case.
Apple's != PC's. Therefore, they should be judged as being in a separate container.
There are few or NO competitors to Apple in the OS-"x" (x={6,7,8...}) space.
There are no competitors to Apple in the "iphone-compatible" space. There are no other phones by other manufacturers, that can run iphone programs. When there ARE, then we would have 'competition'. But Apple is a monopoly in this space. As well as in the OS-x space.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
The tragedy is your tiny view of monopolies being only what you are told they are.
No, I view monopolies as what they are considered and agreed to be under law. This is useful because that way, when the grown-ups are talking, we all get to talk about the same thing.
No one else is allowed to provide a "plug-compatible" platform that will run those applications. There is no competition. If you want a device that will run all of the apps in those specific spaces, you must by from Apple.
And if you want to fit a
Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry (Score:4, Insightful)
Repeat after me. You don't need to be a monopoly to be convicted of anti-competitive behavior. You don't need to be a monopoly to be convicted of anti-competitive behavior.
Monopoly is semantics (Score:4, Interesting)
Unless you're referring to the word monopoly by its legal definition, which would not be relevant to discussions of whether what Apple does ought to be considered a problem, how you define whether something is a monopoly is crucially important.
Everyone loves to trot out that Nokia owns something like 50% of the global market for smartphones. Then they gleefully point out, Apple isn't a monopoly!
However, you take the players that are bigger than Apple on the market, and you examine their products. Nokia's so-called smartphones are not used as smartphones by the vast majority of their users. What percentage of Nokia users have ever installed a program on their phone? Likewise Blackberry's so-called smartphones are used basically as email/messenger terminals. The only significant installed programs on Blackberry's are those that are pre-installed by the corporation's IT department.
The only major player besides Apple in the real general purpose mobile computing device market is Google Android. However, despite their recent uptick in sales, at the moment, if we were to look at installed base of Android and iPhone OS mobile devices, iPhone OS is in a monopoly position.
It may not be a legally cognizable category to act upon (yet), but the real market we need to be looking at is mobile general computing products. Mobile computing very likely will replace what we now call desktop computing in the future, and if current trends continue, we may find ourselves in a situation where what we can run on our computers is in the hands of a single company that has exercised power ruthlessly in the past.
Long story short, Apple is a monopoly in an emerging market that looks like it will be incredibly important in the future. When it acts like a dick with the power that it has now, I'm going to try to convince others to consider Apple's business practices as a bad thing.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Neither is Coca Cola a monopoly, and yet they have been restricted from anti-competative actions for decades.
Some competition laws effect companies with lower market share... mostly in Europe. You might note, however, the recent competition law actions against Coca-cola were in the EU where they do dominate the market with over 80% share in some EU countries.
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Ummmm....they actually ARE banning all dev environments other than .NET (silverlight) on WinPhone 7.
That's different. Requiring use of .NET is fine; any compiler that generates CLR bytecode will work. It's no worse than requiring Java applets to be in JVM bytecode. The problems with Microsoft's managed environments are 1. the required app store and 2. useful APIs not being made public, such as (notably) procedural audio output on XNA.
So they created a product, based on another (Score:3, Insightful)
product which pretty much everyone knew wouldn't get approved with the changes ... and now we're surprised?
This might have been news when the changes were introduced, now its just:
Duh, you knew you were treading on thin ice before you even submitted it.
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I'm quite sure it took longer time to create that product than 2-3 weeks. That was when Apple announced the change. Adobe didn't know anything about it either, since they just before released their new Flash suite that allowed you to cross-compile to iPhone. Those who bought Adobe's product for that reason must love it now, and theres nothing Adobe can do about it.
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This isn't just some random product that disobeys the new rules imposed by St. Steve. This is a re-implementation of a key piece of early Apple desktop software.
This is much like Apple stabbing Adobe in the back but without any of the alleged acting out from the relevant 3rd party.
Minding your manners won't help. Don Jobs will whack you too.
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product which pretty much everyone knew wouldn't get approved with the changes ... and now we're surprised?
This might have been news when the changes were introduced, now its just:
Duh, you knew you were treading on thin ice before you even submitted it.
No, this is a company with a business plan that said they would re-do their product to output ONLY for iPhone/iPad (read: not be cross-compilable for other platforms), use 100% CocoaTouch (meaning they look and function like every other app on the platform), guarantee they'd keep pace with the SDK 100%, and have the apps be literally indistinguishable from apps written in Objective-C. And Steve Jobs said no to this business plan.
To recap: they had a product before that was acceptable; with no notice, Ap
" Steve Jobs still rejected its proposal" (Score:2)
Do you actually believe that Steve Jobs personally does all rejection......really?
Re: (Score:2)
Do you actually believe that Steve Jobs personally does all rejection......really?
Do you actually RTFA......really?
No, I'm not new here.
Re:" Steve Jobs still rejected its proposal" (Score:4, Insightful)
For something like Hypercard? Sure.
This isn't just the 10,000th fart app.
Jobs wants 'hypercard' on the iPhone? Yeah right. (Score:5, Insightful)
Jobs went on the record saying that something like HyperCard on the iPad would be great, 'but someone would have to create it'.
This being the same Steve Jobs that effectively killed the original Apple Hypercard back in 2000?
Maybe that should have read, "something like HyperCard on the iPad would be great, but we would have to create it, otherwise it clearly would not be insanely great..."
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
I'll bet that HyperCard app would look cool on an Android phone if the developer decided to port it over... hint, hint.
Was it really Steve Jobs (Score:2)
"...Steve Jobs still rejected its proposal..."
I am wondering whether it was at Steve Jobs' sole discretion to reject the app. If it is indeed the case, he must be a busy man these days looking at every app because I understand the iPhone has 200,000 apps. Right?
Re:Was it really Steve Jobs (Score:4, Informative)
This is not about an iPhone app, but about a development environment to create iPhone apps. The company contacted Apple after the SDK agreement changes to determine whether there was any way they could adapt it to the new requirements, and apparently got their final rejection notice from Steve Jobs (see the fine article).
Stupid is as stupid does... (Score:5, Interesting)
Steve is really trying to sell himself short, here. His reality distortion field has gone to his head, and he thinks he's bulletproof. And you know what? When he was the only game in town, he was bulletproof.
But he's not the only game in town. In fact, as of 1st Q 2010, he's not even the biggest game in town! [npr.org] As an application developer myself, the recent shenanigans around dictating to developers like me how we can or can't do our job and/or what tools we can use make the iphone a non-starter.
Sorry, too hostile for me, too much lockin for my clients, and not enough benefit. Android it is!
Isn't it ironic that the company responsible for opening up the smartphone market is now offering the most closed platform?
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Saw Douglas Crockford's talk about the history of programming languages and development a week or so ago, and I came to the conclusion that largely, yes, programmers need to be told how to do their jobs and with what tools otherwise you wind up with crap like Windows and x86.
http://developer.yahoo.com/yui/theater/video.php?v=crockonjs-1 [yahoo.com]
Easy dev tools = too many apps to vet (Score:3, Interesting)
Apple are already struggling, and widely criticised, for their slow and inconsistent 'approvals' process.
Imagine the explosion of apps that would happen if multiple, and easy, development paths were opened up on the iPad/Phone.
They'd drown...
I
If Apple wants HyperCard for the iPad (Score:3, Insightful)
Then perhaps the question should be phrased as:
- how would this app need to be created so as to meet the requirements of the license?
William
(who is quite fond of Runtime Revolution as it was originally called and developed a ``ProportionBar'' app in it:
Windows: http://mysite.verizon.net/william_franklin_adams/portfolio/interfaceconcepts/proportionbar.zip [verizon.net]
Mac OS X: http://mysite.verizon.net/william_franklin_adams/portfolio/interfaceconcepts/proportionbar.app.sit [verizon.net] )
Re:If Apple wants HyperCard for the iPad (Score:4, Interesting)
Then perhaps the question should be phrased as:
- how would this app need to be created so as to meet the requirements of the license?
That's exactly what they asked Apple, including offering several suggestions of their own. The result, quoting the article:
Sucks to be those guys.... (Score:3, Interesting)
And I'd like it if Apple would be at least a bit more open about any number of things (like java 6 being two years behind)... But Apple's been pretty clear about at least a few points:
1. Don't ship crap. Say what you will about the iPad/iPhone... the hardware and software is definitely not crap.
2. Write once run anywhere always has issues (abstraction layers too). I'm a long time java swing guy and >I know that java apps are not ideal for normal end users.
3. Badly performing apps create a stink that gets on everyone.
#3 is ultimately what apple wants to avoid. A bunch of apps written on some third party abstraction layers that ALL break when apple does an update (apple can't QA everything). Then people think the iPhone/Pad suck... not the hidden abstraction layer.
And like it or not they are now at least being consistent about it. No abstaction layers for anyone!
Enterprise deployment? (Score:3, Interesting)
What's to stop them from making an enterprise deployment? Or have the rules for that changed? Looking at Chapter 5 of the guide (http://www.apple.com/support/iphone/enterprise/), you can use the iPhone Configuration Utility to deploy a signed package, the only thing you need to do is get a signature via Apple, then send out a config that includes instructions on how to get the app.
What am I missing?
Calm down, take a deep breath - and try this: (Score:3, Interesting)
So Apple sees this Hyper-Card clone that already has a good sized institutional market lined up and decides not to approve it. Rather than hyperventilate about DRM and lockin, why not just go with the simpler explanation of greed.
It would be so simple for Apple to come out with their own Hyper Card for the iWhatever; they've got the background and the copyrights. With an already existing market this would be a easy win; I'll bet that there's Apple developers at work on this right now.
It's not all about control, guys - it's about money. If you follow the money you won't have to pull out that old "reality distortion field" handwave to explain what's going on.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
yes
if you are a mega corp and buy the idevice enterprise SDK license than you can load your internally developed apps directly to idevices. still a PITA to deploy to thousands of devices compared to running BES. but that is the state of mobile devices today. blackberries suck as devices. idevices are nice but Apple has no idea how to support corporate customers. Android is still too immature and has no corporate IT support
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Re:Same problem Flash had... (Score:5, Interesting)
Everything that has gotten approved so far uses XCode as a build step. You don't necessarily have to do all your development work in XCode (i.e. Unity game engine),
Where have you seen that Unity has been approved by Apple? All I've seen is the Unity people saying [unity3d.com] "we think we're fine because Apple can't afford to remove all apps on the appstore that have been built with our engine, but obviously we can't offer any guarantees".
Cross compile to an XCode project with things like static libraries for your runtime and everything will be fine.
I'm not sure how you can interpret an SDK agreement stating, a.o.,
as
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And what is it that makes this a device instead of a computer?
The iron grip Apple holds on it.
Loosen that grip and you could have a truly revolutionary product. As-is, it's only revolutionary in their own PR. And also magical. Super magical.
Re:iPad is not a PC - Where is my Prius SDK? (Score:4, Interesting)
I'd hate to tell you this, but no one cares about openness except a handful of geeks.
This is why when I flew last weekend I saw two groups of devices being handled by passengers flying. E-ink readers and iPads.
Not tablets, slates, netbooks. iPads and Kindles/nooks.
Revolution isn't about what YOU as a super nerd can do with devices it's about what everyone can do with a device.
Re:iPad is not a PC - Where is my Prius SDK? (Score:4, Informative)
Are you completely new to the cellphone industry? There have been development kits available before the IPhone or IPod even existed. I wrote my own apps using J2MEE long before Apple decided to enter the market. That is on phones NOT considered smart phones.
Apple is not the first cellphone manufactuer to support dev tools, but they are definitely one of the first to disallow someone who owns a device from choosing what to create or run on it.
They are also a first for dictating what development environments or even PREPROCESSORS a developer can use. XBox, Nintendo, Sony, etc all allow apps to be compiled in C/C++ to their target ABI (Application Binary Interface).
You present a failed comparison. In the world of cellphones, and closed systems, this is a first, and it should anger anyone who thinks they should actually OWN a device.
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Really? So other than the iPhone, every other phone on the planet can have apps installed on it from anyone? Thats news to me because I've had several phones from several manufactures that I could only get apps from the phone provider.
You don't know what you're talking about.
Re:iPad is not a PC - Where is my Prius SDK? (Score:4, Interesting)
Apple is not selling the iPad as a PC or even as a computer. It's a device.
Ah, but the PC Folks' world is slipping away. [slashdot.org] When iPads are all that exist, no one can compute anything Jobs doesn't allow. And that happy thought is what keeps him alive.
Logical Conclusions (Score:3, Interesting)
Apologies for the double post, somehow must have clicked anonymous the first time I posted this.
Let me see if I can draw out your argument to its logical conclusion. Correct me if I misstate your views, or if an additional fact I provide means you will have to add additional nuance or caveats to your original point.
Your argument:
If you sell something and advertise it not as a computer, but as a device, you have no obligation, moral or legal, to make it more open to 3rd party development.
Hypothetical:
Year is
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
I haven't heard Toyota calling for developers to come develop for their platform, nor have I seen them using developers to create the usefulness that justify the price a Prius commands. A Prius is worth its price out of the box. IMO, the iPhone and the iPad would be worth much less than they are if not for 3rd party developers. Apple quite often uses the work of these 3rd party developers as bullet points to why you should purchase one of their devices. Without them, you've just purchased an $800 combin
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Got any evidence to go with that assertion.
Despite Nokia making a profit on every sing bit of hardware sold. Nokia is not big in the US but they own half of Asia and are well respected in Europe and Australia. The E71/72 is one of the best selling business phones in Australia and Symbian phones account for