Oracle's Plans for Java Unveiled at JavaOne 155
msmoriarty writes "Oracle had lots of Java announcements at this year's JavaOne. So far the plans include: 'The availability of an early access version of JDK 7 for the Mac OS, plans to "bridge the gap" between Java ME and Java SE, an approach to modularizing Java SE 8 that will rely on the Jigsaw platform, a new project that aims to use HTML5 to bring Java to Apple's iOS platform, the availability of JavaFX 2.0, a pending proposal to open source that technology, gearing up Java EE for the cloud, and a delay in the release of Java 8.'"
And they said Java was dead! (Score:1)
Java is clearly not a "dead platform" like some fools claimed it to be. It was quiet for a little while, but it's roaring back to life now that it has some good funding behind it again.
If you want to talk about dead platforms, look no further than Perl. It has stagnated the worst of all of the once-popular programming languages.
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Nice. Yeah, you get right to the point. Being cool seems to be more important than Getting Shit Done for a large number of giggling morons. Hacker News seems to be full of them,
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Ditto.
At work we are migrating clients away from a java based platform as fast as we can. The Oracle/Sun marketing front can infest all the blogs and news sites with it's marketing drivel till the cows come home, only senseless newbs out of college will sacrifice what may have been a budding career to it.
Yes, you can call me bitter now.
- Dan.
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Lol. I call you a desktop weenie. The Enterprise space is totally pwned by Java. Just cause you don't have it in your start menu doesn't mean that Java (and C) doesn't run all the heavy lifting you can't see behind the Web.
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The only thing Java dominates is CPU load.
Yes, on our production servers java does dominate the CPU load. Does so pretty much overwhelmingly, however it's the designed capacity. If you want to be a fan boy or comic book guy type, who cries about 'the best' or 'the worst' of known arguments every time a subject comes up, you can't be stopped. However, it should be acknowledged that all you're really adding are obviously well practiced taunts. Are you trying to dumb down Slashdot on purpose? Or is it just your nature?
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I wouldn't call that a good design. But maybe I am just too old school. back in the day we used to design for the lightest CPU load possible, not the heaviest.
As for reducing the collective intelligence of slashdot, most of the newcomers have done a good enough job of that on their own.
No wonder Cmd Taco quit.
- Dan.
* Taking his marbles, and playing somewhere sane.
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* Taking his marbles, and playing somewhere sane.
When you figure out where that is, please let me know.
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Compared to C++ or C, Java is slow. How slow depends on the workload. Anywhere from a few percent to a large multiple, the latter being fairly easy to trigger by hitting the JIT just the way it doesn't like.
If you care about performance or latency, Java is the wrong language. But it's faster than Python.
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Compared to C++ or C, Java is slow. How slow depends on the workload. Anywhere from a few percent to a large multiple, the latter being fairly easy to trigger by hitting the JIT just the way it doesn't like.
If you care about performance or latency, Java is the wrong language. But it's faster than Python.
It depends upon how it's written, or are you unaware of the tests showing Java beating C++ by a large margin? Granted, they're probably all biased, intentionally or not, by the authors own capabilities, but even so, Java is not "slow", especially not in a server platform. It's also a whole lot easier to program robustly, especially by the majority of "CS Majors" currently being cranked out of schools. (That's another topic entirely) Note that there are seeming classes of problems that C++ would be faster in
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It depends upon how it's written, or are you unaware of the tests showing Java beating C++ by a large margin?
I am absolutely unaware of such tests. I know that long ago (more than ten years) Hotspot was actually able to generate better code than gcc in some situations, but that is ancient history.
I am certain that Java is slow on servers compared to C++ (gcc). I have measured this in detail, and determined at least some of the reasons.
Your points about Java robustness certainly have merit, however my point is that if you care about the fastest, most compact, lowest latency software possible you better not use Jav
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So two years, then.
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Lol 24.
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It may be quiet on the consumer front, but in the enterprise world, Java remains one of the big things. Ignore the .NET and Python fanatics.
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No, It's not. If it's in use still, it's because of vendor lock-in.
- Dan.
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No, It's not. If it's in use still, it's because of vendor lock-in.
I'm not sure what universe you're in, but Java and COBOL are the dominant languages in big business.
Yes, the typical dot-com startup uses ruby or whatever, but the Fortune 500 writes a ton of Java code each year.
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Citations please.
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Citations please.
Sure, as soon as the previous poster provides some for his claim that Java is not big in the enterprise world.
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You made the first affirmation, burden of proof to educate is yours.
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You made the first affirmation, burden of proof to educate is yours.
I see a lot of server-side Java use round here. I see a lot in the companies I work with, which are of various sizes. I see a little Ruby, but not really very much. I don't see any Python at all. (Not to say it's not there, but I don't see it.) I also see a fair amount of C#, but only really in the Microsoft-based shops. YMMV.
Java's big in business. It's mainly big in business because it's already big in business. Yes, that's circular, but what I mean is that there's a large install-base of Java code and no
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This isn't a preference for C# over Java; they are nearly identical in power, capabilities, and speed. But Java has become irrelevant on the desktop, and that may cause them to eventually lose the server..
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Citations please.
here [answers.com] and here [blogspot.com]
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Citations please.
here [answers.com] and here [blogspot.com]
At my current employer who shall remain nameless for the time being we do an absolute metric shitload of image and video processing in Java for the US government. There's definitely some issues that continually need ironing out but you can usually get Java to do whatever it is you want if you don't mind spending enough time with it. We also have started using some C# but that's only to replace some positively ancient Access applications and then is probably going to promptly get thrown in the toilet.
On
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And the Department of Defense. Java is vetted for TS and higher clearance systems. Most other languages and platforms are not.
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Bullshit. My company are producing new products in Java precisely because it is such an open ecosystem.
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In other news, Mozilla is considering dropping support for Java in Firefox, to fix SSL/TLS vulnerabilities... so yeah, I'd say it's close.
Huh? Java in the browser has been dead for quite some time, as it should be (along with Flash, Quicktime, and all other plugins). You do realize that your Android phone, Blu-ray player, and a large percentage of servers you connect to are all running Java VMs, right?
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Re:And they said Java was dead! (Score:5, Insightful)
If you want to talk about dead platforms, look no further than Perl.
I love the fact that you're posting this on Slashdot.
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I love the fact that you're posting this on Slashdot.
If you take a look at the mess of spaghetti that is Slashcode, then you'll realise it's appropriate rather than ironic. Slashdot took years to actually have pages that approached anything like well formed or compliant to a DTD, and the current site glitches badly on mobile devices.
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Java was never dead, it was merely on life support. The time gap between Java 6 and Java 7 was in the vicinity of 4 years which is an eternity in programming and gave Microsoft the opportunity to gain a substantial lead on Java. Sun went out of business and nothing whatever could get past the JCP for approval. What with Sun going titsup and Oracle creating plenty of bad blood in the community it was a coin flip if any new version of the Java standard would ever be approved at all. A few months ago, Oracle p
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JDK 7 has some serious goodness in it, for my needs anyways. And I'm fine if there's less bloat. You may see my improvements as bloat, and what I think of as bloat your core needs. Depends upon your viewpoint.
Microsoft gained a lead on Java? With what? I've done a year in .NET recently, and while it has some ok features, it's still got a long way to go to match the capabilities and dev environment provided by even Java 6 and Eclipse. And never mind the CF underneath the covers that MS calls security....
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LINQ for one is a major feature that Java doesn't have. Lamda expressions are another. Visual Studio 2010, at least if you have one of the higher license grades and get the write plugins is better than Eclipse in most ways(though I admit Mylin is just dead sexy, and Eclipse is a hell of a lot cheaper). Microsoft has also introduced a bunch of really nice frameworks to play with, at least so long as you're working with them on Windows, they're quite a lot easier to work with than JEE6.
As for Java 7, I don't
Desktop (Score:2)
Still no love for Java on the desktop?
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Thankfully, no.
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Re:Desktop (Score:4, Insightful)
Well, in hindsight it would have been nice if Sun had adopted SWT and its native widgets instead of pushing Swing on the desktop for years and getting nowhere. Yes, I get it, writing a cross-platform native GUI layer that acts the same on every platform is hard, but they had numerous options. They could have bought or licensed QT. They could have adopted SWT. Or wxJava. Or even GTK (like most Mono LInux desktop apps).
It would have been nice if they had open sourced the JDK a decade earlier instead of waiting until they felt the heat from gcj. Java could have been the dominant platform for writing cross-platform desktop apps, instead Sun was pushing applets, and it took until SWT before I saw the first Java desktop app that didn't suck (Eclipse). Imagine my surprise when I found that the second Java desktop app that didn't suck (Azureus) was also based on SWT.
Applications like Eclipse, Azureus, and Banshee show that Java/Mono style languages can do desktop apps, but for whatever reasons the Sun AWT/Swing combination went nowhere. If it were a true open source project I'm sure they would've adopted another GUI widget layer, but they didn't, probably because Sun wanted exclusive ownership rights.
Re:Desktop (Score:5, Insightful)
SWT seems ok until you start to develop it. Then you realise it is awful. Then if you have to develop in SWT off Windows you realise it is even more horrible. Then you have professional projects where you need to extend SWT and you look deep under the covers and realise SWT is really, truly bone-deep-ugly. Then you go back to Swing and life is much, much better - especially ever since Java 1.6u10+ (Nimbus and fully hardware accelerated rendering on multiple platforms).
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As a user, in every Swing app I've used since it came out it always fucks up basic things like being able to double-click. Fail.
Also, I'm now working via a remote desktop, and Swing apps behave awfully because they don't use native widgets. Meanwhile, over the same connection Eclipse runs beautifully.
I don't care how ugly SWT is behind the scenes, because where it counts, the user experience, it delivers. Swing sucks for users.
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you forget to consider that SWT pretty much only works decently on Windows.
I'm actually running Eclipse on Linux. It's quite nice that I can actually do this on a VPN with good response times. Swing apps perform badly.
Don't be left behind.
Thanks for the laugh. You sound like a Christian evangelist.
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Who is the evangelist? Java2D (=> all of Swing) is fully hardware accelerated (DirextX shaders on Windows and OpenGL shaders everywhere else) since Java 1.6u10 (came out years ago). Boy you are out of date, still clinging to very old notions (since according to the French scientific supercompting outfit INRIA even several years ago Java is faster than C++ and C for their purposes, and is approaching FORTRAN, please read this article and the linked paper http://blogs.oracle. [oracle.com]
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Java2D (=> all of Swing) is fully hardware accelerated (DirextX shaders on Windows and OpenGL shaders everywhere else) since Java 1.6u10 (came out years ago).
And how are those hardware accelerations going to transmit across the VPN to a remote desktop? Native widgets work well in the scenario I was talking about. Swing doesn't.
Java is faster than C++ and C for their purposes
I didn't say anything about Java performance except as to how it applies in using a remote desktop. Sending bits of screen redraws doesn't work.
Incidentally, Swing works perfectly for my apps on RDP, but if there is a fault rendering then the fault is RDPs not Swings.
I don't know why it works for you. Maybe you have a very fast network on a lan compared to the VPN I run through, which adds encryption to the mix, and is over the Internet. All I can tell you is
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Don't you know that at the root level Swing *is a native widget* with some custom rendering in it. What you are suggesting is that any native widget with custom rendering in it would break for you in RDP. Somehow you think this is the Java team's responsibility and not Microsoft's? Like I said, use VNC instead of RDP - and it is a sh
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Don't you know that at the root level Swing *is a native widget* with some custom rendering in it.
It's one big fat widget instead of something like native buttons known by the operating system. That's why remote desktop doesn't optimize it like it does for native applications.
it is a shame you are on a slug VPN but that ain't Swing's fault either.
The point is that SWT-based Eclipse runs just fine over this connection, whereas the Swing applications do not. That's the penalty of not using the underlying system.
That's because many developers are (sadly) 9-to-5 muppets rather than craftsmen.
Maybe you mean the developers of Swing, because this is basic functionality that I've seen broken in every Swing app. Double-click should match whatever the native sys
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can be used to get double-clicks. Swing supports it but the developers didn't hook up any events to the double click. The problem is the developers, not Swing.
You run Eclipse via Remote Desktop? Madness. Don't you know how to remote debug ? (built into the JVM by the way, there is nothing that beats JVisualVM since you profile stuff, including the JVM, without specifically compiling for it).
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Swing supports it but the developers didn't hook up any events to the double click. The problem is the developers, not Swing.
The problem is with Swing, because the standard Swing widgets do not do double click right. It's not that double-click isn't supported, it is, it's just that it fails to register quite often. The timing is different.
You run Eclipse via Remote Desktop? Madness. Don't you know how to remote debug ?
I work for a financial company from home. They have strict security rules about what leaves the network, so I essentially have to work remotely on their machine on their site. What's cool is that Eclipse works surprisingly well, quite unlike the Swing apps.
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"Swing is very easy to code for and its integration with Java2D allows for a flexibility I've never seen in other toolkits (e.g. you can draw a button rotated by 27 degrees, a text label mirrored,"
WPF can do that, but it has a much steeper learning curve, and is bound to MS. Mono doesn't have a WPF library and isn't planning to do one either.
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I fail to see how having a JVM is any more of a security hole than having the ability to execute native code.
Desktop java != applets.
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Having a JVM - or any kind of virtual machine - is actually a pretty big security issue. For native code, modern OSes are hardened with protections like no-exec flags on data that make it harder to exploit many common classes of security holes, but as soon as you introduce a sufficiently capable virtual machine into your process this hardening becomes worthless. As far as the processor is concerned, the VM bytecode is just data like any other data, and it's fairly easy to use any security holes to trick the
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Well, you could say that about perl/python/ruby either.
On the other hand, Java applets run in a sandbox defined by security policies.
http://download.oracle.com/javase/tutorial/essential/environment/security.html [oracle.com]
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Do you have reference to any actual, real-world exploits that rely on such a flaw?
As I understand it, the JVM's security protections against treating arbitrary data as bytecode are at least as good as most operating system level protections against treating data as code, but I'd be willing to see counterevidence if it's available.
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That's fine in theory. The problem isn't the theory though. The problem is the implementation of Sun / Oracle JAVA is full of security bugs. And Oracle doesn't patch them; they only do new full versions. And those new full versions always break some existing apps in ways that require the developers to put out fixes. So you are always stuck either running the known vulnerable version of Java or having some of your critical enterprise applications not run. It is a nightmare on the desktop. Not because a JVM is a bad idea. Because Oracle JRE is bad code.
programs are full of security holes because I can run any app I want and it can exploit my system and fails to fix them.
I don't understand what you are saying either. Because desktop java isn't a security "magic bullet" doesn't mean it's crap. Don't use it to run untrusted code. Native applications have the same problem with untrusted code, as do interpreted languages and everything else that runs on a computer. If you want safe computing, unplug your computer and go outside.
Source? (Score:5, Informative)
Please. The Oracle (formerly Sun) JVM is not "full of holes". And, Oracle does patch them - what do you think all those Update release are for? Oh, you wanted a patch for just that specific fix into a given (random) Update release, did you? Do you have any experience in managing such a project as the JVM? Point patches are a massive headache to manage - so much so, that while I was at Oracle (in the very JVM group you disparage), we couldn't find a reasonable way to manage point patches well on even the paying customers. And, I worked with a bunch of folks far smarter than the average programmer.
I was in the Sun JVM group for over 7 years (2004-2011). In that time, there were only 3 "critical" exploits published for the JVM, and less than a dozen for the entire JDK. There were more than that for "serious" bugs/problems, but those weren't security breaches (which, were, by definition, an exploit). I should know, I was the Gatekeeper for the JVM.
Newer versions (i.e. 4.1.2 -> 5 -> 6 -> 7 ) do certainly break a non-trivial number of older apps, and require fixes. Updates to a given release (i.e. 6u10 -> 6u20) do very occasionally break something if you jump a large number of Update releases; however, most of the cases we found in such breakage of apps was the developer's fault in either using an undocumented "feature", a feature which was marked "obsolete", or one which was marked as "unsupported". If you stuck to the documented API of supported features, well, it wasn't absolutely 100% bug-free upgradable, but then again, nothing is, and the JDK has an outstanding track record in that regard.
That's not to say that there aren't problems in both the JVM and JDK. It's just that you obviously don't know what you're talking about in the real world. Don't take my word for it: Google "Sun JVM security (hole OR flaw)" there are a very few links (maybe 2) to flaws in the past 5 years, a bundle of links to stories around 2004-2005 (which are all about the same set of bugs), and then practically everything else is at least 10 years old. Guess what? ALL of those have been fixed, relatively quickly, too.
-Erik
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Thanks for all the work you guys put into the JVM over the years. I've been quite happy using the JVM. Haters will be haters, and Java's got a lot of haters. It just goes to show that the bigger you get the more polarized people are toward you. Anyways, good luck in whatever you've moved on to and so long, thanks for the fish.
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Not sure how this article [net-security.org] which was on slashdot a few days ago arrived at 37% being due to Java JRE exploits, 32% acrobat and 16% flash exploits, but then people must be a lot more lazy updating their JRE than anything else...
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That's fine in theory. The problem isn't the theory though. The problem is the implementation of Sun / Oracle JAVA is full of security bugs.
And as long as you don't set up your browser to run untrusted java code by default, *it doesn't matter how many such bugs there are*. I don't say this because I'm a Java fanboy, or an Oracle shill. I say this because I'm fed up of people blaming entire systems for insecurity when it's actually the way they are trying to use them that's insecure. Java is a huge system. Applets are a very small part of it, and are the only part that can really be considered insecure. Disable links between your browser an
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He means, and this is my assumption, that running Java applications on the desktop via the JVM is no less secure than running natively compiled code on the desktop. Perhaps a better definition of where the security "holes" are located and/or transported would be a more enlightening discourse (applets? browser JVM integration? JNLP?)
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He means, and this is my assumption, that running Java applications on the desktop via the JVM is no less secure than running natively compiled code on the desktop. Perhaps a better definition of where the security "holes" are located and/or transported would be a more enlightening discourse (applets? browser JVM integration? JNLP?)
Its interesting that when you come to general purpose programming languages they will all allow you to do insecure things. If you can't do something that the native os platform allows is a limitation of the language, not really an advantage. What counts is that the program should make it hard to do insecure things accidentally without adding too much of a burden on doing them deliberately. In my opinion C++ is moderately good at both, where as Java is probably better at preventing you from doing things acci
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I'm not the original poster, but having gcc on a machine is indeed a potentially security problem.
I'm not sure what the original poster is talking about.
The JVM has had a few security issues now and again but the real problem has been the browser plugin (which isn't really related to the JVM/JRE at all). The plugin(s) also suck and Snoracle never cared enough to make them decent or secure.
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It's a trap! (Score:1)
All of us who work with Oracle databases know this already. What they plan to do is open source just enough to make it attractive, get you dependant and locked in, then charge like a wounded bull. Notice they're open sourcing JavaFX in stages - the first hit is free, kid!
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All of us who work with Oracle databases know this already.
What are you talking about? The Oracle Database has always had a closed-source, commercial model. Anyone who implemented on Oracle always knew what they were getting.
Re:It's a trap! (Score:4, Informative)
It's more subtle than that.
For instance using standard Oracle is pretty cheap... and it's not until you start to say 'gee, if only we had partitioning these performance problems would go away' that you really get stung.
Then you start doing spatial analysis and find the Spatial features easier to use than the crippled Locator.
Or you try a new database for a new project and because it's still a POC everything is free, until you go live...
Or you upgrade from dual core to quad as part of a regular hardware upgrade - only to find you need to buy twice the licences.
Or you discover that sometimes hardware does fail and you need RAC.
By the time those sort of things happen it's too late to say 'well, it would've been free if only we'd used MS SQL, Postgres or any other vendor'. Oracle's sting isn't the initial purchase price.
Also, have you ever tried running a system outside support & maintenance? I know a number of companies that keep extra Oracle licences around because they don't dare repurchase them if they ever do end up needing them.
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They have a business model that makes them a f**k ton of money and love em or hate em, they're still one if not the best database on the market. If you really don't like paying a TON of money for a database, I recommend not using Oracle. If you want a database that "Just works" and well, use Oracle.
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Actually, I'll amend that, sometimes Oracle can be a real bitch to setup / configure, but I guess if you can afford an Oracle DB then you can afford a decent DBA to manage it...
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Yep, I'll give you that (with the caveat about a DBA which you noted).
The thing which has burned me in the past is I've been able to afford to run a basic Oracle DB, but not to add on things like RAC - so I'm left without features which I would've been able to afford had I gone SQL Server.
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Android on (or instead of) the desktop is soon to come. The desktop will soon be touch enabled running some follow on to ice-cream sandwich that works well on phones, tablets and the desktop.
Don't think so? Take a look at Windows 8 if you don't think the desktop and touch screen technologies are quickly merging.
While Oracles' legal team is trying to slow down Andriod, its getting it's Java ME inline with SE and JavaFX to make a run for the mobile/tablet/desktop itself.
Java dead
Upshot (Score:2)
So basically they are working on everything except what really matters, Java 8.
Re:Upshot (Score:5, Interesting)
Actually, I'd argue that JDK 8 isn't that important right now. People are still adjusting to JDK 7, and fixing the issues with JDK 7 should have a higher priority than doing all new stuff for JDK 8. Especially since there are very few features slated for 8 that are of broad immediate appeal. Honestly, I was never a believer than less than 2 years between major JDK releases was a good idea. It takes at least a couple of years for vendors to move to the new JDK, and stabilization of a release takes awhile (as the user base of the JDK is enormous, and there's no substitute for real-world running of apps to shake out bugs in the JDK).
JDK 7 was released 2 months ago. Focusing on making that a better product, rather than jump right into spending all their effort on a future release is, IMHO, the more responsible use of limited resources.
Of course, nothing is preventing community work on OpenJDK 8.
-Erik
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Actually, I'd argue that JDK 8 isn't that important right now. People are still adjusting to JDK 7, and fixing the issues with JDK 7 should have a higher priority than doing all new stuff for JDK 8.
I'd say based on my experience that's there's still a sizable group out there that's having trouble adjusting to JDK 5 or 6. JDK 7 isn't even on the horizon yet.
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Right... (Score:2)
Re:Right... (Score:5, Interesting)
Have you tried running a Microsoft App lately without installing the .NET 3.5, 4, 2.2, 1.1, 1.0, and maybe another couple of .Net runtimes? I have a couple of guys at work that are gung ho .NET developers right out of school. And they hate java because you have to install a runtime and its slow.. I laugh every time...
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And god, I hope Java is next because it is yet another proprietary platform and the crappiest of the bunch.
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Dalvik is the runtime. Java is the language.
Oracle (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Juck Fava. (Score:5, Funny)
Don't you mean something more like
ReproductiveSystem.getBodyPart(BodyPartFactory.getBodyPartInstance(new BodyPart(BodyPart.GENITALS(BodyTypes.MALE)))...
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Any self respecting Java developer knows you have to have a GenitalsFactory class that can creates both MaleGenitals and FemaleGenitals (and may in future be extended to create HermaphroditeGenitals, which will be a totally different class because multiple-inheritance if Wrong and Bad)
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Now I know why I hate variant types. Typeless languages are a sea of androgyny. Like Europe. /duck /run /hide
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C#? You must be kidding. Replace the blind overlord with the evil one?
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heya,
Yeah, Java is firmly entrenched in enterprise, and I don't see massive rewrites happening.
However, that's not to say you can't subtly encourage new projects to go in different directions.
The problem is - what is the best alternative? C# and the .NET family simply lock you into Microsoft.
Personally, I'd love to see Python take hold, but it's still lacking traction in many enterprise settings (although that's changing slowly).
And hmm, why is your lawyer automatically a her? I was always curious whether p
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Invest time and effort in a pipe-dream that, should it actually succeed, will in-fact incur legal actions from Microsoft.
Pipe-dream? It already exists: Mono for Android [xamarin.com], Mono for iPad and iPhone [xamarin.com]
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Since the Java Updater tries to download a new update every other day I'm not surprised people don't give a shit anymore if the message pops up.
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If Java is "free" then why can't Google implemented their own not-quite-Java version of the JVM?
Free is free, right?
Besides, does Oracle actually know this? Or is this more like scox suing IBM for putting UNIX code in Linux? You know, a typical scam harassment suit.
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You can if you use Linux. On Ubuntu the default is to open the jar with the archive manager (which I think is sensible and safe), but you can change that to open a jar for execution with JRE or JDK instead in about five seconds. On Windows there's a command line executable -- "ftype" or something like that, or you could use the registry editor. In any case I doubt it'd take more than five minutes to figure it out.
It's possible that the reason you don't care is simply that you don't know anything.