Rockbox Developers Talk Open Source Firmware 179
angry tapir writes "I recently caught up with some of the key developers of Rockbox: An open source firmware replacement for the stock firmware shipped on MP3 players. The project, which has been active for over a decade, currently supports products from more than half a dozen manufacturers, including Apple, Arhcos, iRiver and Toshiba. It involves extensive reverse engineering to figure out how the devices' stock firmwares operate, as well as the challenge of developing for greatly varied targets. You can read the interview here (or the full Q&As with the project's founder and some of the developers involved in it)."
secrecy is why rhombus-tech was set up (Score:4, Insightful)
"Over time it's only grown to be even more challenging as over the years the companies involved have gotten more and more 'secret'. In the beginning you could actually read markers on chips in the devices and then search for the chips online and find data sheets for them that told us how to program them."
i've done reverse-engineering, and yes it is exciting, but it doesn't really get results: it's damn hard work, and for what? you're always behind the times - never innovating, always riding on the coat-tails of companies who, as linus notes on page 2 of the interview, end up making hardware design mistakes, and you invested _how_ much time in order to find that out?
so we set up http://rhombus-tech.net/ [rhombus-tech.net] as an initiative to create open hardware that is actually desirable as mass-volume products, with free software developers being actively engaged and consulted on the hardware _and_ software development at every step of the way.
there are several such initiatives that could really do with working together - the most recent one is the plasma "spark" tablet - except that there, unfortunately, they appear to have picked a tablet from a company that is known to be willfully committing GPL violations (zenithink). not too many people spotted that one, in amongst the otherwise-exciting news reports, whoops.
Re:secrecy is why rhombus-tech was set up (Score:5, Insightful)
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you've misunderstood, jojoba86. where are the devices which can be purchased off-the-shelf with rockbox linux pre-installed? where in the interview did it say "the rockbox developers have been working with manufacturer X on a deal which will bring you open devices"? in fact, the interview tells you a complete opposite story, doesn't it? it tells you that the developers are forced to perform reverse-engineering, forced to work for months *without* cooperation from the very people who actually created the
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AMS gave datasheets. http://www.rockbox.org/wiki/AustriaMicrosystems [rockbox.org]
Sandisk gave dev boards and NO docs.
Nobody else gave squat.
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I picked up a used Nano 3g (released in 2007) about 3 or so years ago and have given up waiting for Rockbox support.
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Hate to agree, but I have to. I've been using my 'iPod classic' (still the only HDD-based non-PMP I can find) since 2008, but it's apparently locked down too hard for any Rockbox love.
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There are lots of other possibilities e.g. the Sansa clip i a very good player and it supports Rockbox.
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I bricked a Clip with Rockbox. I haven't gotten around to figuring out if I can unbrick it.
Clip+, which is probably what you're actually referring to, comes with a MicroSD slot and supports OGG out of the box. RB supports it too, but I've been leery since the Clip incident.
The Clip+ is an excellent device with or without Rockbox.
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The Nano 3G has no "unofficial" version like you are claiming, so you can't be talking about that either.
Exactly what the hell are you going on about? Next time, take the time to say what you intended.
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"from someone trying to push their own project. "
it's not "my" project. as a software engineer who knows the value of "egoless programming", which specifically trains people to avoid the use of personal pronouns, i cannot let this one go. allow me to make a correction for you:
"...from someone letting people know that there exists *a* project, which is community-based, that is actually set up as a Community Interest Company (google it)..."
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It's your speakers. Get rid of the douche speakers, and normal people won't post with that douche tone you complain of. And, while you're at it, take a real douche. You smell, and THAT comes through in your posts too.
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i apologise for the smell. i know you're joking in some ways but i do actually genuinely know what you mean, and what you're referring to. it's a really strange phenomenon that i've encountered so many times now (over 15 years) that i've had enough empirical evidence to be able to summarise it as follows. any person who is genuine can encounter me (even if i say nothing) and they will react favourably towards me. any person who is *not* genuine - who is either deceitful or dishonest - will *automaticall
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I think the problem has nothing to do with you and everything to do with idiots.
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> Why mod this up?
I certainly found it "Interesting" and "Insightful." I, too, have done reverse engineering, and it's a gold-plated pain in the butt. He's dead right about that. The key point -- and one that I emphatically agree with -- is that when you're forced to reverse engineer, you're almost by default behind the curve.
Software can be copyrighted, but unlike most other copyrighted works, copies of the original aren't always available to the general public. With a book, periodical, or song, I could
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I would think an initiative to create open hardware would be exactly what /. readers want to hear about. I know I do.
The Rockbox team have been very successful in getting their software to work on a huge variety of devices, but that doesn't contradict anything lkcl said. It took a long time for RB to be ported to the Fuze, for instance.
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I recognize the letters LKCL anywhere. DCE/RPC over SMB and LKCL are etched in my brain even though I probably last looked at it 7-8 years ago. Thank you for that one.
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:)
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Yeah, ditto. Reverse engineering the NT crypto handshake was non-trivial. Glad to hear Luke's still active!
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"You've done reverse engineering; you didn't get results ."
sorry, you've misunderstood. google "lkcl htc universal", "ct-pc89e", "lkcl hw6915", "lkcl htc blueangel" and "samba ntdom". i get results all right - _technical_ successful results. however, what i *didn't* get was the result "a mass-volume product pre-shipping with a GNU/Linux distribution out-of-the-box". it made absolutely no difference that i succeeded _technically_ in completing the reverse-engineering: the manufacturers still were not in
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"When you have the wrong goal, it doesn't matter what you do, you will fail."
that's what i learned from that failure, and changed the goal.
OSS Rocks! (Score:5, Interesting)
A friend of mine has a cheap mp3 player that he bought a couple of years ago. He flashed it with Rockbox and has had his battery life more than quadrupled!
I don't know why companies are so loathe to take advantage of free software like Rockbox and, instead, insist on writing their own, lousy firmware. There are people out there who will do it better, and for free!
Just imagine how much better things could be if closed source software were outlawed...
Re:OSS Rocks! (Score:5, Interesting)
My first comment was going to be "because nobody but a major geek wants an MP3 player with a UI that looks that bad."
But I hadn't seen the UI in a few years. I looked on Google and found some screenshots. Damn it looks nice now.
Anyway, there is still the answer that "the companies want to control it". With the flexibility available from Rockbox, it would be much harder to control the user environment, which would make end user support much more difficult.
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Not even close, its a time to market problem. Classic cathedral vs bazaar thing. The mfgr wants to ship something that technical barely legally works as fast as freaking possible, unless they're apple. As long as it doesn't get returned to the store as "broken", its good enough. Only the rockbox people and apple want to make the "perfect" device no matter how long it takes.
That brings up the marketing problem, that "noname mp3 player inc" markets to people who want the cheapest or are giving gifts or ju
Re:OSS Rocks! (Score:4, Insightful)
The market isn't limited to "no name" and "Apple". MS, Sony and Creative are in there, at least. Although, Sony fits your no-name description to a T. Cowon, also a fairly unknown name, also has made good players in the past. Some people get these Non-apple players, believe it or not, because they have features that the apple player lacks.
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I first used RB on the archos jukebox, the one that had a small spdif-out jack (that's what made it special to many of us). from what I remember, even 10 yrs or so ago, it was a worthwhile upgrade over the stock firmware.
my last use was on a sansa c200 and I believe it gave me the ability to play .flac. stock firmware, iirc, did not. that made all the difference.
I have a personal sample set of only 2 for RB but 2 out of 2 is still 100%. no complaints here!
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Re:OSS Rocks! (Score:5, Informative)
I once worked for a company like the one that provided your cheap mp3 player. There were several reasons for not being more open:
1. The only legal music stores at that time insisted on DRM, which is largely incompatible with open source.
2. Chip manufacturers only provide drivers in binary form. They also have extensive confidentiality agreements that made it impossible to release relevant code produced by us.
3. Documenting and cleaning up code, reviewing licenses and releasing or integrating code is a considerable workload and has to be justifiable. I think people overestimate the resources that small companies can spend on firmware. The firmware for some of our products was implemented by three or four people.
4. Our boss hated the idea that our competitors could get a leg up by using software that he paid for being developed.
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there's at least a few more reasons why companies do not want to release source. here's a big one that few mention: when you release source, you can be 'infringing' on someone's algorithm or code snippet. or approach. or maybe your code used rounded corners (ok, I'm not serious about that one).
the point is, whether you plan to or not, you do end up using some code - code that you probably wrote entirely on your own - but it resembles an approach that someone took and they want to slap you down for using
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*I don't know why companies are so loathe to take advantage of free software like Rockbox and, instead, insist on writing their own, lousy firmware.*
because the company is guided by engineers who.. drummroll.. for whom the reason for being employed at said firm is writing that lousy firmware. it's not like they're going to recommend "hey, just send these specs to this guy and fire us".
I love rockbox (Score:3)
I've been running rock-box on a succession of Sansa mpfree players for close to 6 years now, and I love it.
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I was going to try Rockbox on my old and battered Sandisk Fuze, but when I investigated the benefots in doing so, I saw that the Rockbox firmware actually knocks 10 hours off its battery life!
The lesson being that YMMV.
best device today - advice (Score:2)
I love rockbox but my gigabeat died and I need a replacement, what can I get today that'll run rockbox nicely that's >=40G ?
Gigabeats were great but they're getting on a bit now to the point where the harddrives are dying and replacing them is more faffing than I'm interested in.
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You can replace the hd in a Gigabeat with a CF card. You will need an adapter, but these are available on ebay.
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iRiver Rockbox user (Score:2)
I've had my iRiver for about 7 years now and it's still pretty happy. Sure, it's big and clunky and one day the HDD will fail, but when it does, I reckon I'll just put in a new one and carry on.
I much prefer having my phone separate to my MP3 player, simply because the battery life is better and also that when I'm listening to a song I don't have it disturbed by an incoming call from a recruitment agent.
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Careful. Finding a compatible hard drive is hard and not cheap. My iRiver H340 now has a 128GB SSD but I might put the still-working HDD back as it is much less reliable now with the SSD. YMMV.
Grammar, grammar (Score:3, Funny)
"Firmware" is a word like "software," "hardware," or "clothing" -- you cannot have "one firmware" and there is no such thing as plural "firmwares." You cannot have "a software" or "a clothing" -- you have a piece of software (or: a program), a piece of clothing (or: a garment), a piece of firmware (a firmware set, a firmware package, etc.).
Please correct the article here: "how the devices' stock firmwares operate" -- that should be "...stock firmware operates..." as the device has one set of firmware, composed perhaps of several programs or packages.
I registered on their bug tracker but cannot decipher to whom or how I should report this grammar error as a documentation flaw -- any suggestions?
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I registered on their bug tracker but cannot decipher to whom or how I should report this grammar error as a documentation flaw -- any suggestions?
Target their next Release Candidate.
This is no small change since their web site is imaged and hosted on a Beowulf cluster of first generations nano iPods.
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Creative? (Score:2)
I notice that there is nothing listed on the Rockbox site about Creative players. Why isn't Creative's Zen line supported? I have a Zen gen1 player I'd love to reflash with a better firmware, mostly because it sounds like fun.
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Because nobody who has a Zen has stepped up.
Rockbox was the reason I bought my iRiver. (Score:4, Interesting)
I had my iRiver H340 for less than 30 minutes before it ran rockbox. At the time of purchase it was, to my knowledge, the only way to get gapless playback and high capacity (40GB isn't enough now but it was the best you could get back in the day). I've tried it with a replacement SSD but while it works it is quite flaky and needs regular resets.
It's a shame there are very few high capacity players on the market now, I would love to get a new device which supports:
Lots of storage. Enough to encode all my CDs and a few 'try-before-you-buy' albums. Ahem.
Gapless.
Bookmarking capabilities that work with all files (apparently ipods require you to define things as an audiobook before they support bookmarking)
ogg support so I don't have to re-rip my CDs (I'd compromise on this if everything else was offered - it's only a few weeks of feeding CDs to the PC)
No need to 'make my own playlists' or any other such carp unless I want to. Music already comes with pre-defined playlists: also known as albums.
If this ever happens it will most likely run rockbox - I doubt the hardware manufacturers would do as good a job.
To Linus and the rest of the rockbox devs. Seriously. Thank-you.
Rockbox Rules (Score:5, Informative)
I'm an AC -- always have been, always will be -- so no one will see the comment, but I have to post anyway, just to give a big thanks to the Rockbox team.
I have an old-ish Sansa (e200), and despite the fact that it's now "ancient technology," with Rockbox, a good sized microSD card (which, BTW, wouldn't be recognized on the original firmware), and replacing the battery once, it still shines. IMO it's as good as any new shiny bling, and I'll probably have it until I do something silly like dropping it into a toilet.
Seriously, Rockbox is a great application. With the stock firmware I would have gotten rid of it several years ago, but with Rockbox there is no need.
I don't want -- nor need -- a smartphone. What I need is a good MP3 player, and I use it every day.
Thanks Rockbox!
Bluetooth won me over (Score:2)
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I purchased a used iPod Video 80GB on eBay because it was supported by RockBox. I have 60+ GB of music on my iPod. A 64GB microSD card costs nearly $150; I could buy another used iPod 80GB for that money. There's no online service that would provide that much storage for free, even if my mobile provider allowed me enough bits per month and bits per second to do so. Driving 10 hours back and forth to school four to six times a year makes the iPod with Rockbox a very useful device. I'd also rather not use the
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Useful back when I owed a video ipod. (Score:2)
When I had a fifth gen ipod I used rockbox a bit. It was cool at the time and did some stuff I couldn't do otherwise on that model of ipod. (skins, gapless playback, graphic equalizer, some other stuff)
But now I have an Samsung Galaxy s2 and I've given my kids an ipod touch each. There's no way I would replaced the GUI on those things. My eight year old kids picked the ipod Touch and never had a question about how they worked. Power Amp on the Android exceeds the functionality I had in Rockbox. I gave
Compressor (Score:2)
One of the biggest advantages of Rockbox IMHO is the compressor. Hard to listen to a lot of music-- especially classical music-- in a noisy environment without some dynamic range compression.
unfair criticisms and erroneous premises (Score:2)
I think it's a real shame that some people use an article about a successful and greatly appreciated free software project to
a) make snide and uninformed criticisms, some even on the erroneous premise that Rockbox is a Linux based project, which it is not.
b) assert that the RB devs have some responsibility to do something other than what they want to do and intend to do.
c) then try to use thos unfounded complaints to turn attention to themselves and their project.
It is *ridiculous* to criticise the RB devs
Erm, yes? (Score:5, Informative)
For sport. More rugged than any phone, long battery life, and disposable-y cheap if it gets smashed or wet.
Also I have to display my lack of iDevices as an anti-fashion statement ;-)
Re:Erm, yes? (Score:4, Interesting)
Weight. Never overlook the ability of fat rich people to spend $500 on a set of carbon fiber bicycle handlebars that are 1.3 ounces lighter than stock carbon steel. Oh, I can listen to my workout tunes using something that weighs 4 ounces less than my hefty iphone, and it only costs $50? I'm so there.
Size. At least for the gym bunny crowd (exhibitionist mostly young and good looking women who don't actually exercise, but like showing off the goods to the guys who like watching) on some of those more ridiculous tiny tight spandex outfits where do you put a giant iphone? Walk around with it in your hand the entire time? That was the strategy at the gym I used to go to, they'd spend the whole time walking around trying to look at the guys who were looking at them. Some tiny dedicated mp3 players are nearly small enough to be a barrett (no thats a M82A1 rifle) .. barret (no thats for idiots who can't spell Barrett) Oh f it I mean that thing that you women clip in your hair. Even for an old guy like me who thinks "long distance" snow shoeing is hard core, less weight to carry always equals better.
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That's why Apple created the iPod Nano and the arm band.
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Never overlook the ability of fat rich people to spend $500 on a set of carbon fiber bicycle handlebars that are 1.3 ounces lighter than stock carbon steel.
I always chuckle at this. All my friends are big into the latest ounce-shaving component but unless the ounces are from the wheels, I see very little point. After all, the easiest and most cost effect way to drop some ounces is to loose it from you own gut.
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Never overlook the ability of fat rich people to spend $500 on a set of carbon fiber bicycle handlebars that are 1.3 ounces lighter than stock carbon steel.
They haven't made steel handlebars in a very, very long time. Metal handlebars are aluminum.
For many components, your statement may be correct, especially for the non-racer. But for serious cyclists, carbon bars have a major advantage: they are more comfortable. Metal - and aluminum in particular - transmits vibration, while carbon fibre tends to damp it out. The difference between the two is noticable. Whether it is worth an extra $100 or so is open to debate, but with a decent race bike being in the $10,0
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Re:MP3 Players... (Score:5, Informative)
Yep, even with SDCards, I don't think there are phones out there that can compete with some MP3 players in terms of storage.
And, as the other poster said, you have issues of battery life as well.
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I'm an Apple-tragic but I don't have an iPhone. I'm using a gen 2 Nano because it's tiny (well it was when it was released), fits in my motorbike jacket nicely and has great battery life. I've had it for over 5 years and I use it 5 days a week. For a phone, I'm using some old Nokia thing that's missing two buttons but is otherwise unkillable and much more pocketable than an iPhone or similar.
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I've yet to see an mp3 that supports over 48GB of storage.
Not that it invalidates your choice, but there are MP3 players with 64GB, at least from Apple, Sony, Creative and Microsoft.
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My old Archos (That came out before the iPod) currently sports 320GB.
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Perhaps your eyes have been amputated? I've seen 64GB players at least 5 years ago. I've seen 128GB players as well. Seriously, I'd go see a doctor.
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..you should really check out this thing called iPod, comes in 160gb, get it from ebay or something.
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Moving parts!
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Compared to MP3 players with 64GB, 128GB or more...
It is lacking.
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yeah.. I got a 160gb ipod and no modern replacement for it. and the standard fw sucks ass if you actually load 100gb+ of random songs on it. horrible ui for that amount of music.
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Re:MP3 Players... (Score:5, Interesting)
Poor, badly implemented playback with small storage and a lousy interface.
Want Ogg? Flac? Decent Headphones? Good organization via tags?
I would be a bit surprised if the iPhone didn't have quite a lot of that (Don't know, Don't much care). But your basic dumbphone doesn't.
My MP3 player does very good on most of it - and with Rockbox installed has excellent results with all of it it plus the geek cred of playing Midi.
Really, any good MP3 player ought to play Midi - {G}.
Pug
Re:MP3 Players... (Score:4, Informative)
Android codec support is actually quite impressive.
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the old wm6.5 phones of course play vorbis. it's not like it's rocket science to compile stuff over to them.
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Actually, most MP3 players don't support flac without rockbox :-(
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Actually, most MP3 players don't support flac without rockbox :-(
All Cowon devices support Flac and even Creative shit supports flac nowadays. I guess most = stuff that needs iTunes.
Then get a decent one (Score:4, Informative)
Cowon has support it for a long time and I believe iRiver as well and I would be highly suprised if Archos doesn't either.
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What a crazy list... Do you even HAVE a phone (that cost more than $30)? Those are all quite easy to get with even the cheapest Android phone. They all accept 32GB microSDHC cards, which can be swapped-out as desired for unlimited storage. Plug in any headphones you want.
Playback, format, interface, and organization are all a matter of software... Winamp does pretty we
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Look at how cool you are, with your shiny new devices that do what mp3 players did a decade ago (ooh 32gb of storage!). Keep upgrading and throwing those "archaic" devices into the trash, or "recycling" them and shipping them to 3rd world countries for faceless people to burn and inhale.
Who knew that being a geek simply meant dropping small amounts of cash on gadgets.
More than $30 (Score:2)
What a crazy list... Do you even HAVE a phone (that cost more than $30)?
But at this point I don't yet want to pay "more than $30" per month for my phone. The cheapest Android smartphone plans from Virgin Mobile USA are $35/mo. I pay a fifth of that for my dumbphone.
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Winamp does pretty well, and it's mostly just a clone of DoubleTwist, which is also quite good, and both free. But if you want a few more features, spending a whopping $5 is no big hardship, and gives you access to some top-rate apps.
PowerAMP is a great player.. I think it's 5 or 10 bucks.. it plays everything I've thrown at it. My daughter has an iPOD touch; the native player sucks badly for file format support. Guess what, the android native player sucks too, as does the windows native player (media player) and presumably the osx native player.
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I was wondering about that. Was asking myself, "Self, when did you first hear of WinAmp? And, when did you first hear of DoubleTwist? Wouldn't the latter be the clone?" And, Self answered me with his usual smartass inanities, so I couldn't make my mind up.
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Largely my thoughts.
Rockbox is awesome, and it had served me well for many years. It's a poster child for a well run, well documented, and very functional open source project.
That said, mp3 players themselves are largely becoming obsolete. They still have advantages as others have said.. but those advantages are becoming fewer and fewer. The mp3 player I have now (which imo would be unusable without rockbox.. great hardware, terrible stock software) is probably the last I'll buy.
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The only advantage I can see right now is the battery life.
The kind of phones I like don't have the battery life of the mp3 player I lost a few weeks ago. The phones have more storage than the mp3 player did, but the battery in that battered old Archos Gmini XS202 lasted weeks!
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Another advantage: I have 4 kids. They don't need phones and I won't buy them phones because it would be an absurd waste of money. However, I bought them all Sansa e250's, installed Rockbox and they love them. I use my own on a daily basis. With a 32GB MicroSD card, it's got a well-designed UI and does its job perfectly.
There are many, many good reasons to own and use an MP3 player. Some people seem to be snobs because they can afford an iPhone or some other overpriced gadget that does a bazillion thi
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In that same way, people don't buy a laptop just to watch DVD's, or buy a car just to listen to the stereo.
But if you do listen to the stereo in your car, it's a lot simpler and more convenient to use an MP3 that has 2 weeks of battery life and a relatively low replacement cost.
Certainly when compared to using a phone that you need to remove every time you stop, the battery of which is consumed
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Many flight attendants make you turn off MP3 players too, thinking they somehow magically emanate plane-crashing radio waves.
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The Sansa e Series is totally awesome. Too bad they don't make them any more. The Fuze and Clip+ are decent and I haven't seen a Fuze+ yet. But as far as I'm concerned, Sansa nailed it with the e Series, any further improvements have been gravy. Of course, Rockbox makes 'em better, but the Fuze and Clip+ support OGG out of the box and I bricked a Clip with RB, so I was leery of trying it with a Clip+. OTOH, the stock firmware in the the Clip+ does the job.
Oh, and battery life? Unless I'm using it for
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I have Fuze+. Apart from the fact that it does play ogg, its crap overpriced player.
Not only it has over sensitive touchpad that reacts to every finger movement while you hold that damn thing,
but it also buggy (crashed many times),
Its interface also lags a lot.
It barely recognizes IDv3 tags (I had to convert all of my MP3 collection to use very specific version of them to make it see them).
It plays videos only is very specific format for which you have to download their crappy video converter.
Battery life i
Re:More than half a dozen? (Score:5, Informative)
... or go the full hog, list the half dozen ...
Replying to myself. The list is: Apple Archos iriver Toshiba
Plus: Olympus Packard Bell Cowon SanDisk
Plus unstable port for models from these manufacturers: MPIO, Philips, Samsung
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And no, it is quite possible. I have a cheap Motorola Andro
How much sense does it make in $/mo? (Score:2)
That minor inconvenience is worth it when the alternative is carrying around a separate device.
Separate devices plural, including a car charger and a wall charger.
it makes a lot more sense for me to carry it around rather than lugging around a dumbphone, MP3 player, camera, netbook, etc. All at once.
But how much sense does it make in dollars per month to carry a smartphone vs. a dumbphone and a Galaxy Player or Archos 43, when smartphone service is still about five times the price of the cheapest dumbphone plan?
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For a person like me who usually is in rural areas that have 3G but few wi-fi networks to speak of, it makes a lot of sense. For someone who lives in a major city where every other building has free wi-fi it might not make much sense.
I pay ~$50 a month with unlimited texting, minimal calling minutes (I rarely talk on the phone and if I do its to another cell phone generally on the same network), and "unlimited" grandfathered
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smartphone service is still about five times the price of the cheapest dumbphone plan
Virgin Mobile [...] this plan is $35 [...] my phone costs aren't much more than a "dumbphone" plan
My dumbphone plan from the same carrier costs $7 per month because most of my calls can wait until I'm at a land line with unlimited local minutes. I'm still waiting for a business case for paying $35.
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I too use rockbox on the Sansa Clip+ and I must say that it is amazing. I'm a sound quality nazi and I find the 5 band parametric(!) equalizer a requirement to make even expensive canalbuds sound bearable. The Clips also have really good headphone amps. The player is tiny and has a standard mini USB socket instead of nasty proprietary cables. With rockbox installed it will play an insane range of file formats. It is also cheap as chips.
I don't foresee any phone replacing it as my primary music listening dev