US CompSci Enrollment Up For 4th Year Running 101
dcblogs writes "Interest in computer science continues to grow among undergrad students, who pushed enrollments up nearly 10% in the 2011-12 academic year, according to the Computing Research Association (CRA) of enrollment and graduation rates at Ph.D.-granting universities. This marks the fourth straight year of increases. Enrollments might have been even higher if not for enrollment caps at some schools that don't have enough faculty, equipment or classrooms to meet demand. Enrollments increased 10% last year as well, but overall enrollments remain below the peak reached during the dot.com bubble. Around 2002, each school had a department with an average enrollment of about 400 students; by 2006-07, that enrollment average had declined to about 200. Average enrollments per department are now nearing 300, according to the survey."
for loops galore (Score:3, Insightful)
Get back to us after the fourth semester and let us know what % of the enrolled did not switch majors or drop out.
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I'm pretty sure you're trolling... But in case I'm just being hyper-sensitive:
I mostly do administration, but my ability to automate tasks (in a well structured way) is pretty darn useful. The code I write hopefully ends up being pretty easy to maintain if I have to leave it to someone else. Binary math comes in handy when having to deal with networking (making sense of netmasks, network IDs and the like). I usually have a pretty good feel how applications work, or what's happening when they don't.
None o
You need a degree (Score:1)
But you need some sort of Bachelor's degree to get MBA, which allows you to do all the above with job security and 6-figure pay.
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I know I'm not meant to reply to this, but please, if you are going to do this, *please* fix the grammar. Sentence two you no sense.
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I think that over the years, I have just become impervious to these *shock* forum posts. They don't get any reaction out of me any more.
Bad grammar and bad spelling (minor typos aside) will always grate on me though.
and how meany people are better off voc / tech sch (Score:3, Interesting)
and how meany people are better off voc / tech school type training then 4 years + of CS?
To many people are going to CS and not learning the skills needed to do real IT work.
Re:and how meany people are better off voc / tech (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:and how meany people are better off voc / tech (Score:4, Insightful)
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I always hire math PhDs to do my taxes. Although their fee is astronomical it's really worth it. After all "math" is "math" right, the same as "reimaging a hard drive" and "python hacking" are the same as "computer science"? No?
Students Don't Always Know The Difference (Score:5, Informative)
I think that's his point. Lots of people want IT-type jobs, and go for a CS degree because they mistakenly leave off the word "science" when they read "computer science". "Oh a degree in computers! That's what I want to do". You can get an associates learning networking and programming and the like, CS will make you do a lot more theory that isn't really the goal of many students in the program. They just don't understand the difference, or that several options exist depending on goals and interests.
We really do a terrible job in the US of explaining to students the possibilities and letting them go with the best option. It's easier to funnel people into pet programs I suppose, than give any real academic advising.
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Re:Students Don't Always Know The Difference (Score:4, Interesting)
A university Computer Science degree should be an addendum to basic IT skills, not a replacement for them.
Nope. A computer science education should be a computer science education. If you don't want fresh college grads, don't hire them. You don't hire physicists and complain they can't do "IP networking" -- you shouldn't hire computer scientists to do non-science. You especially shouldn't then turn around and tell everyone who is a computer scientist how they should teach their classes.
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Re:Students Don't Always Know The Difference (Score:5, Interesting)
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Another problem is that the jobs for programming or design (hardware, software, firmware, systems) where a computer science degree really helps are very few relative to the number of jobs for basic computer maintenance or web site creation. But parents and other pressures keep pushing students towards those degrees. I think a lot of parents are more concerned about "any decent job after graduation" than "a job my child loves and will excel at". So someone graduates knowing advanced computer science but t
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You can get an associates learning networking and programming and the like, CS will make you do a lot more theory that isn't really the goal of many students in the program.
I'd wager having the students in the school for 4 years rather than 2 years is definitely the goal of the school. It's not like a little thing like taking unnecessary classes matters to them, only that you are taking classes.
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Re:IT jobs == CS degree. (Score:4, Informative)
When you go for any IT job, the number one requirement these days is a degree in Computer Science or equivalent experience.
There. FTFY.
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In general lawyers are currently over-supplied, but lawyers who have a STEM degree in addition to their JD aren't. Still a pretty significant demand for patent law and that kind of thing.
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I never said that I quiz the candidate on a bunch of facts and definitions. That is annoying, and reveals little. Most of my questions are phrased in terms of "tell me about a time where you did x", or examples of how they handled certain situations. I am always more interested in what you have done, rather than what you know. That being said, if the job description states "... the candidate will be working on an Agile development team ...", you had better be able to talk intelligently about Agile, and
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That's true, but not all of them are (or would be) good programmers.
Years ago at a different job, we hired a guy who was supposed to be our UNIX admin as well as a programmer. Since he was new and unknown, we weren't just about to hand him the keys to the kingdom, so his initial tasks were coding and some stuff to
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I'm not saying all inexperienced programmers can't ever become good ones -- but many of us simply aren't willing to gamble on them and trust them with our code.
Lack of experience sometimes means you may not actually have the skillset. And employers aren't willing to pay to find out.
...which leads to a past "Ask Slashdot" question, how do these folks who stick it out four years for a BS in Comp Sci actually get a paying job in the field if no one is willing to hire inexperienced folks?
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Summer internships, research positions, contributing to open source, pet projects ... I honestly don't know. I graduated university almost 20 years ago; and at that time, pretty much only enthusiastic geeks were enrolled in CS.
When I went to school I did research work with one of my profs for the last s
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I have certainly met unemployed programmers (and engineers too), and I have been one. Generally even after being laid off there are jobs out there but many are just not necessarily the ones you want to do, or the ones you have no experience in (unix and hardware gurus aren't going to get those .net jobs or even want them). I get a couple recruiters a month contact me but never for something I'd want to do or be willing to burn a bridge over. Recruiters just see a certain keyword and call you up.
Compare t
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Googling
Society seems to be bifurcating into those who know how to find stuff and learn from it, and the masses who don't. I have no idea how to train people. You can't be successfully educated without knowing how to research, but thats just a filter, its not something thats taught. If there were a way to teach people how to research, especially research online, that would be helpful.
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The train/educate ratio needs to tilt far over to the "train" side, IT is expected to do drone work, not invent or think.
The education topics need to remain more or less the same, some comprehension of "big O" and scalability problems and algorithm analysis remain important.
IT needs some biz and accounting classes... mandatory requirements. Intro to accounting is not terribly useful for a computer scientist.
IT needs more liberal arts. Public speaking, mandatory for presentations. A computer scientist onl
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A combined IT / MBA curriculum seems more make sense. Political Science is also a plus. But in the USA there are too many white IT racist that refuse to learn another language.
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He doesn't mean freelance by building some geocities website or by fixing your neighbors computer. There are a ton of ways to freelance via work at home opportunities that can get your real experience and real money. Its almost become a form of apprenticeship. I got started out doing freelance web programming and really enjoyed it. I would still be doing it because it allows me to work from anywhere in the world. But I had to eventually move on to a real job in a boring office to support my family, but if I
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Having a 4 year degree certainly helped me, but what's equally important are certifications. There are too many amateur IT people flooding the market, and not enough highly skilled people. Best way to get experience and name recognition is to freelance a few years. You never know what opportunities you'll come across.
Certifications (with two exceptions -- CCIE and CISSP both for different reasons) aren't worth the paper they're printed on. I've met so many "certified professionals" who couldn't find their ass with both hands and a map.
There's no substitute for experience. Period. Any certification that you can get by just studying the book and/or doing practice exams are worthless. The two exceptions I mentioned above don't fit into that category. The CCIE requires hands on problem solving and the CISSP requires at
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The RHCE and RCSA are rather good.
And as a CISSP myself who is well-grounded in the infosec field, I guarantee that most CISSPs don't get it, and that cert, while having merit in the past, is quickly becoming the MCSE of our time.
Re:and how meany people are better off voc / tech (Score:5, Interesting)
I can't speak for all US universities but it would seem Information Systems and Technology degrees are suited toward practical programming jobs.. I don't really see IS*T majors doing research for comp sci specific fields but that's not to say they don't exist. In my program, I learned databases, java, c#, vb.net, and the agile development process which will basically get you a job in the US as a front-end or mid-tier developer.
The problem is most people want to come to IST because they don't want to program but find out that they should have just majored in business or MIS. This is only for certain schools however.. I have met some programmers who were better at coding than comp sci people because they have a better sense of scope...
Which brings me back to your point... Comp Sci from my experience gears you toward PHD or masters programs where you will be doing a lot of theoretical work. They don't teach them mandatory database classes or networking which is very important in today's coding world... they also don't teach you anything about how coding fits into the business world. That's not to say you couldn't get any programming job you want.. But honestly, if you live in the US, it doesn't really matter for most companies if you got a comp sci or IST degree so long as you can prove that you know what you are doing in the domain of what they need you for. It's basically just a formality now, they check you off whether or not you got a degree... I think they frown on Votech schools over conventional bachelor's programs, but if you can prove you're proficient, they will give you the chance regardless.
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It sounds like you have limited knowledge about what schools offer. I have a CS degree and I was taught databases, c++, python, java, c#, and a number of different development processes. Additionally, i was also taught compilers, parsing, formal proofs, algorithms, graphs, and a bunch of other stuff that is only used tangentially where I work.
The MIS majors where the ones who were taught just databases and a few Microsoft languages, like you.
I do believe there is no standard, and you have to look for a scho
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If you're bright enough to do well in competent CS program, you can pick of the specifics of $solution you happen to be working on and you'll have an edge on keeping up in the long term ve
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Don't worry, someone in India is not only learning it better, but willing to work for cheaper.
Re:and how meany people are better off voc / tech (Score:5, Insightful)
someone in India is not only learning it better, but willing to work for cheaper
That's not my experience of Indian programmers. Well, both parts of your statement are correct: someone in India is learning it better, and also someone in India is willing to work for cheaper. They are not usually the same person, however.
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That's what your company get by not being patriotic and hire American-Born.
10% more graduates will be disappointed (Score:2, Interesting)
Joining the other unemployed 54%
* http://newsfeed.time.com/2011/05/10/survey-85-of-new-college-grads-moving-back-in-with-mom-and-dad/ [time.com]
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Make sure they have interesting jobs (Score:2)
At this point, being a developer is so well-established with so many tools and sources of documentation, that it's no longer cutting-edge. The question is whether we're steering these people into dead-end careers where they are (virtual) pencil pushers in cubicles, or whether we're advancing enough that they have something interesting to do.
Making another version of a well-known type of web site, or well-known type of Android app, might be steady work but could also be so boring their brains will collapse a
Re:Make sure they have interesting jobs (Score:4, Interesting)
I think there are plenty of interesting jobs out there, it's just that finding the boring ones are so much easier. I live in a midwestern town of less than 150K people. I've worked here for 17 years (2 different jobs) both doing embedded work, both small companies. There are also a few large engineering firms in the area, almost everyone goes to work for them because they are always hiring (and firing).
Most people (especially newbies) that work for the large firms end up mainly doing (my idea of) grunt work: testing, database coding and documentation. With my employers everyone codes. And, in the embedded world, code is (almost) always interesting IMHO. And there are sooo many places that need embedded developers. Any manufacturer of any electronic device needs embedded developers -- and we are surrounded by electronic devices. Yes, most of that stuff is not made in America, but enough still is that it provides plenty of jobs even here in the states. Also, embedded code now-a-days is pretty much the same as coding for the desktop. It's not like you'll being doing everything in assembly. Most use Linux or a Windows variant (CE, XP embedded, etc).
I guess my point is: Don't just apply to the big engineering/computer firms that everyone applies to. Look around in the nooks and crannies for software jobs. You'll have better odds of having much more job security, flexibility and satisfaction. And, the big firms are always your safety net if you can't find a job somewhere interesting.
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It's tough getting an embedded job unless you already have experience with the specific processor and OS the company hiring uses. Which is ridiculous, but it's one way false shortages are created.
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With appliances becoming more common, as well as trying to make more "smart" devices, embedded device programming is one of the few open frontiers left in programming.
With Android features becoming part of the mainstream Linux kernel, it opens up a lot of possibilities. For example, one thing I have thought about building would be a system that would check an RV's functions, and alert the owner if something is amiss, be it house batteries running low on charge, unauthorized access to the coach or storage p
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Precisely what would these CSci graduates work on? (Score:4, Interesting)
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Re:Precisely what would these CSci graduates work (Score:5, Insightful)
You are living in a subjective reality, a prison of your own construction. If you choose, the "hardly anyone" who you mention, can be everyone who matters.
Think back to 20 years ago when Microsoft looked like the main barrier to progress. The market looked just as un-enterable to people living then too. And their discouraging words were met by fogies who spoke of IBM, saying the 1990s kids didn't know how good they had it. But of course things actually were happening; they just weren't in the headlines.
You're right that there is a large market being played by AppGoogFaceMicrosoft and that little of interest is happening there, but doing uninteresting things is always how it is when you're trying to sell things to the mainstream where the big money is. This says nothing about things that are possible to work on and advance, except the sales volume itself.
This isn't even a software phenomenon. Most creative endeavors are like this. Why learn to play music when so many people are giving their money to Nickelback? Why learn automotive design when people are just going to buy Chevy Silverados? Why work on solar power when people will just write monthly checks to their local utility who burns coal? Why carve furniture with an axe, when people will go to Ikea? Why brew beer in a nation who spends so much on Bud Light? Because you love doing things, that's why, and because even if most people buy lame shit, you're still not alone.
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Wish I had mod points -- what a great, and positive post.
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Supply Creates Its Own Demand (Score:2)
If you have a bunch of talented, smart workers around with skills, there's no shortage of things to work on. The economy isn't a zero-sum game.
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But Google, Microsoft, Apple, Facebook for the most part are just doing stuff in the "facade" of computing. Stuff that people can see on the web in other words. Despite all the hoopla that's really a minority of all computing out there. Most stuff happens out of sight or not on traditional peecees. Apple does more embedded stuff (or at least purchased companies that did it) with iPod and iPhone, Microsoft pretends to have an embedded solution, Google has Android and has played around superficially with
Don't waste your time/money (Score:2, Insightful)
In my admittedly cynical experience with most wannabe young programmers, I've found that the vast majority only major in the field because they think it will make them money and provide steady work (or because they think *programming* video games is in any way analogous to *playing* them). But they have neither the heart nor mind for the field and so go one of two ways:
a) They drop out before they finish their degree (wasting *their* money), or
b) They graduate but make for really shitty programers (wasting
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My anecdote (Score:1)
The timing on this is funny... I literally just filled out an application to my school's undergrad CS program this morning. I graduated a couple years ago with a physics degree and have been doing research work here ever since. It's a nice job - the pay isn't great, but the benefits and hours are. So why am I going back to school? Because I realized that I spend most of my time writing code, and that's the part of the job I enjoy most. But also because the fundamental economics of science research are bleak
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What does CS enrollment have to do with IT? Presumably, you're in a CS program because you want to be a researcher or developer, not a server or network admin.
At the moment, its damn near impossible to find quality system/kernel/embedded developers in Silicon Valley. Maybe the application side is different, but I sort of doubt it based on how much the big guys have been hiring recently.
And I'm Still Having Trouble (Score:1)
And I'm still having trouble hiring a CS professional in Baltimore. I was at a local admin users group recently, and there were 3 people hiring (including myself). 2 for development, and 1 security specialist.
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Offer more money?
I know what you're going to say, but the answer is, "Clearly not."
Context of the Bubble (Score:1)
Higher Education is in a massive tuition bubble. Liberal arts, if properly taught, are very good things. But it's getting increasingly hard to justify getting a liberal arts degree for $100,000+ worth of debt. Heck, it's hard to justify any degree for that.
My kids have some ways to go before they are ready for college, but this would be my advice. Consider getting an associates degree and transferring if you are going to go for a liberal arts degree. That may be a good idea in general.
Instead of getting som
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it's a good thing for computer science kids, but.. (Score:2)
And yet... (Score:2)
No increase in demand for teacher and professors. For those of crazy and qualified enough to teach (because we are passionate about it), we can't. I begin to see why tenure isn't necessarily a great thing.