Russian Programmers Dominate At Google Code Jam 159
New submitter Migala77 writes "Now that the third round for Google Code Jam is finished and only 25 contestants are left, we can look at which nationalities performed well and which didn't. Code Jam contestant foxlit has the stats, and some interesting things can be seen. Although there were over 3000 contestants from India in the qualification round (17% of the total) , only 3 of those managed to reach the third round (0.7% of the round 3 contestants) . This in contrast to Russia with 77 out of 747, and Belarus with 13 out of 114 reaching the third round. The U.S. performed somewhat below average too, with only 25 out of 2166 contestants making it to the third round."
none of that seems surprising (Score:3, Insightful)
Or these results don't reflect anything about the quality of the programmers from a country, and rather the bias of who found out about the Code Jam (lots of everyday Joe programmers, vs those in-the-loop).
Re:none of that seems surprising (Score:5, Interesting)
Numbers per-capita, much less absolute numbers, aren't wildly interesting; but those are some fairly dramatic differences in attrition...
Re:none of that seems surprising (Score:5, Interesting)
There's a reason why StarForce (the notorious almost impossible to crack DRM), sophisticated malware, one of the best antivirus software (Kaspersky), cracking of software and games and other highly technical stuff and algorithms originate from Russia and other CIS countries. The fall of Soviet Union led to tons of highly capable programmers without work and income, so some went to dark side while others spend time on good things. Nevertheless, both sides are filled with highly capable people, all thanks to Soviet Union's appreciation to computer technology.
Re:none of that seems surprising (Score:4, Informative)
Russia dominates in technical computer stuff because during the last decades of Soviet Union, the government greatly pushed and spent money for computer education. It's one of the things that actually worked in Soviet Union's communism.
I wouldn't say that USSR had a lot of money spend on computer education. I grew up there, and the first time I saw a computer was when my father took me to his work, and that was already after I was in school.
What Soviets did spend a lot of money on, though, was education in hard sciences in general, but especially math, with physics a close second. If your brains were wired for it, you would get noticed pretty quickly and moved to a specialized school where you'd have 15 hours of math per week by the time you graduated. From there, a fast track to the appropriate degree in the uni, free so long as you can pass the entry exams (which, by that time, you usually could with ease).
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You could also name Heroes of Might and Magic V, King's Bounty (the remake), The Void, IL-2 series and Cut the Rope.
Re:none of that seems surprising (Score:5, Informative)
Having (probably) visited your country, I can verify that your gasoline costs more per liter than ours does per gallon (a gallon is "around" four liters)
Also I've seen your (speaking generally) newspapers and you guys have/had crazy import duties and VAT taxes on cars, so ownership and maintenance is very expensive compared to here. Finally your equivalent of the DMV has teeth... you won't allow cars on the road that here would be considered in worn but usable shape.
The feds (well, the GSA) lets us claim 55.5 cents per mile of expense on our cars when used for govt (and presumably business purposes).. This is hyperinflated such that even land barge SUV drivers with horrible insurance rates and expensive maintenance still make a microscopic profit, so needless to say my domestic subcompact with cheap (married dude) insurance makes me a profit of something like a quarter per mile.
I'm estimating it costs me about 30 cents per mile to drive here, and in your country it approaches or exceeds one euro per mile, so it's going to be difficult financially to justify spending 6 euro to deliver a 99 cent hamburger three miles away.
Also our cuisine sucks but its almost designed for a delay in delivery, whereas a lot of the stuff I've eaten in Europe would not benefit by sitting around for 15 minutes and being bounced around in a car before eating.
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I'm estimating it costs me about 30 cents per mile to drive here,
And I successfully Fed that up pretty badly about 29% low.
Actual figures over the past 12 years are:
25e3 purchase / 125e3 miles + 10e3 maintenance / 125e3 miles + 3 bucks per gallon average over the life of the car / 28 MPG average + $1000 per year insurance / 125e3 miles / 12 years owned = about 39 cents per mile.
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Re:none of that seems surprising (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:none of that seems surprising (Score:5, Insightful)
Hell even the Indians educated here seem to be fairly useless. Adept at rote learning, useless as engineers. It's cultural.
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The Indians were at a disadvantage.
Russian coders are like machines.
Why?
Because in Soviet Russia, computer programs YOU!
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Almost all come from former Soviet bloc countries. India isn't surprising either, as many American companies have found out from outsourcing. Or these results don't reflect anything about the quality of the programmers from a country, and rather the bias of who found out about the Code Jam (lots of everyday Joe programmers, vs those in-the-loop).
For India, look at the GSoC numbers as well. India and USA seem to dominate it
I don't get it (Score:5, Funny)
Why are you looking at nationality? What are you trying to prove? Is this the 1936 Summer Olympics?
Re:I don't get it (Score:5, Interesting)
Why are you looking at nationality? What are you trying to prove? Is this the 1936 Summer Olympics?
Differing national funding priorities in education Appear to result in differing results in a competition leading to Very Pointed Questions about those funding priorities.
Frankly I'm flooring the Indians did so miserably. What is wrong with their educational system WRT CS/IT? On thing is sure, the winning solution is not just throwing money on the table, Russia was an economic disaster when these competitors were growing up and learning. The Russians are doing "something" the Indians are not doing.
In a way it IS very much like the olympics, although more cold war era than 1936 era.
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You mean running multiple scam rings and botnets and fleecing the entire internet?
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Just to be fair CS is big O notation and calculating algorithmic efficiency, Knuth's books, so its possible to be a decent computer scientist without a computer. You need calculus and a blackboard a lot more than you need a computer.
But doing IT code monkey stuff is utterly impossible without hardware and labs.
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"Scientist" - may be. "Engineer" - hell no. You wouldn't want a surgeon who knows the theory but never practiced it to operate on you, would you?
Re:I don't get it (Score:5, Interesting)
"Scientist" - may be. "Engineer" - hell no.
Agree, I'm degree qualified as a "computer scientist", my job title is "senior software engineer", my job is "code management" which is basically a battle hardened code monkey gaurding the CVS repository. Also to be fair I think CS (and the closely related field of Operations Research) are about discovering, generalising, and refining abstracted algrothims, the latter being the only activity where big O notation is applicable, and even then only as a convinient measuring tool to compare ideas. Compared to most people I meet outside of work I'm a computer/maths 'genius', one major advantage of a formal CS/OR education is that I know that I'm not even close to the bottom rung on that ladder.
In other words, the difference between my job and Alan Turing's job is that given time he could learn to do my job.
As for Russian coders I work with quite a few on a daily basis, they are fast, acurate, defensive coders, they also have a culture where pragmatisim and the ability to improvise are valued traits.
Re:I don't get it (Score:4, Insightful)
"Scientist" - may be. "Engineer" - hell no. You wouldn't want a surgeon who knows the theory but never practiced it to operate on you, would you?
It would be like advertising for "heart surgeon" and specifying BS in bio, premed, or biochem are OK. They could crosstrain, but its kinda inappropriate. Its just as dumb to ask for a CS degree to swap backup tapes, pull cat5, and run "ghost". They could probably learn to do it, but...
Its a huge problem with computer jobs. If construction trades were run like computers, we'd confuse architects, structural engineers, building roofers, masons, CSI arson investigators, janitors, and maintenance dudes and no one would consider that unusual because they're all building workers and all building workers are the same, except that we'd include endless name brands and specs in each job description "Job title is plumber, must have minimum 25 years experience using 2010 model year craftsman 12 oz carpentry hammer model number 124351-3, along with 120 git sandpaper operation, 100 grit and 150 grit sandpaper operators need not apply, architect degree preferred, and TIG pipeline welding certificate optional"
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I doubt one can be a good in CS without a computer.
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Why are you looking at nationality? What are you trying to prove? Is this the 1936 Summer Olympics?
Obviously, if one nation has a substantially higher proportion of winners in a competition like this, it suggests there's something in the national culture that encourages it. Other nations would like to know what that is. It's not pride, it's post-game analysis.
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That Russians are going to get H-1Bs and take you jerbs!!!!
I already did (in 1994). I also count for both Russia (where I studied) and Belarus (where I was born and studied, too).
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Last time you checked my blog in 2007.
Witness the power of... (Score:5, Insightful)
...the strong emphasis on mathematics and science during the Soviet era. Just throw in a bit of Lysenkoism to carry its fruits into the current generation, and presto, world dominance!
Consolation (Score:5, Funny)
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And we still have the Kardashians!!!!!!
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Microcode and high speed pizza delivery.
Someone needs to contact (Score:5, Funny)
Sergey Brin and tell him to keep these Russians away from dominating this American company... oh yeah.... nevermind
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my comment attempted to make national racial and religious strife absurd and humorous
congratulations on showing us why the issue has to be made fun of: too many morons take this shit seriously
Economics and chess (Score:5, Interesting)
Someone once told me this, and it makes sense to me...
It takes a lot of money to fund a lab in medicine, biology, chemistry, experimental physics, but computer science, theoretical physics, and mathematics basically require just a computer or pencil/paper.
Because Russia is relatively poorer and has fewer labs relative to its population compared to, say, the USA, Russia's brightest minds naturally gravitate towards the "cheap" sciences, and that largely explains why they punch substantially above their weight in those fields.
I've also heard it's due to Russia's love of chess, which score one for them, I *really* wish would catch on here.
Either way, they're definitely doing something right.
Re:Economics and chess (Score:5, Insightful)
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In my youth I held a master's rating in chess, and my profession is software development, but I don't really think chess was particularly helpful in that. (But then I was a competent but less-than-great chess player and certainly not a superstar developer, so maybe that doesn't mean so much.)
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I think you can also thank DEC... (Score:3)
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1987-05-29/news/8702090594_1_customs-agents-computer-equipment [chicagotribune.com]
FWIW: They took out the computer, filled the crate with cement, and let them pay shipping on it as part of the sting. See also this phrase on the CVAX die:
http://micro.magnet.fsu.edu/creatures/pages/russians.html [fsu.edu]
-- Terry
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Soviet Union started with its own homegrown tech, and it was pretty bleeding-edge for a while, but eventually they started to fall behind. The engineers and the scientists pushed to keep their own program running, but Party folk wanted the best and the biggest, and so indigenous programs were ditched and replaced with stolen Western tech. In a decade or so, all homegrown developments were past revival. From that point on, the USSR was firmly relegated to the role of copying the new Western stuff, usually af
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Someone once told me this, and it makes sense to me...
They lied. :)
Poland is second in those stats with half the people, better cull percentage, quarter of Russia population, and virtually non existent Chess culture
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Experimental physics, chemistry, biology and medicine are VERY dangerous when drunk or hung over. That's the only reason. :)
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Who has the most to gain by competing? (Score:5, Interesting)
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Balanced by most recent US grads (around 50%) are un- or under- employed yet have gigantic student loans to pay off. Obviously the ratio is lower in a "real" degree like IT or CS, but there's still plenty of very hungry skilled USAians.
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Huh? There are no hot chicks where you live? I didn't understand you logic at all!
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Or, given a stable job and income you will die to show off your office buddies how you managed to qualify at code jam.
They will just have to listen and wish they were as smart as you.
You only live once!
XD
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Except that if you have a job, you might be less motivated to spend your limited free time on competitions.
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I would rather admit that the code jam questions are hard rather than saying I don't want to keep my skills sharp.
Project Euler comparisons (Score:4, Informative)
The Mighty GOOG entrance numbers are within an order of magnitude of the project euler membership numbers. I think you need an account on PE to see the stats:
http://projecteuler.net/countries [projecteuler.net]
For those who don't want to "compete" in PE but want to know the numbers anyway, I copy some from the article and from PE's registration data:
over 3000 GOOG contestants from India vs exactly 4300 on PE
747 Russian GOOG contestants vs 2269 on PE
114 Belarus GOOG vs 254 on PE
2166 USA GOOG vs 21563 on PE
I don't know much about the GOOG contest but I would guess the Venn Diagram of the GOOG and PE is almost entirely overlapping.
A good question is why less than a tenth of USA PE people competed in the GOOG, yet almost all the India PE people competed in the GOOG.
As far as the elite levels go, this is very superficial, but the names of "first 50 to solve a PE problem" and the names in the forums on PE seem to trend very asian, so Japan might only have 1900 or so contestant, but they're all Ruby Ninjas with leet skills, or whatever. I wish I had real numbers other then vague observations.
Another interesting observation is that the Mighty GOOG short term contest is vaguely roughly around half the size of the permanent/ultra long term PE project.
As a PE guy or player or contestant (or nerd?) I can personally verify that PE is higher mathematics and hard core computer science with virtually no IT component. I don't know anything about the innards of the GOOG competition, can anyone involved describe the ratio of CS::IT or logic::memory in the Mighty GOOGs competition? Also PE merely requires any Turing complete language (although some problems can be solved by non-Turing complete languages anyway, and some can be done on pen and paper if you're hard core or its a REALLY easy problem), does the Mighty GOOG require something specific like Java only or maybe even more specific like "must be an android app" or something like that?
Re:Project Euler comparisons (Score:4, Informative)
You can check past contests yourself [google.com], including solutions.
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You can click around to see the languages:
http://www.go-hero.net/jam/12/languages/5 [go-hero.net]
http://www.go-hero.net/jam/12/multilang [go-hero.net]
There's also ranking:
http://code.google.com/codejam/contest/scoreboard?c=1835486 [google.com]
Language? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Language? (Score:5, Insightful)
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As a parent of grade school students in a district with a STEM school, the kids are made fun of for going into a field where they'll be outsourced. Some parents call it the outsourcing school.
The schools are almost perfectly focused on the fields most likely to decline in the future, which is scary. Its as if special "automotive assembly line bolt turner" high schools were set up in Detroit in the early 70s, just dooming the kids to life long poverty. Pretty sad situation.
Now there's nothing wrong with c
Re:Language? (Score:5, Insightful)
What do you suggest an alternative? The US needs to export something to buy all that foreign made tech, the mainstream commercial porn industry is in freefall, and the German amateurs are already giving away most of the sick niche stuff free.
Lawyers to sue the world, politicians to tell them that it's OK to do so, and grunts with guns who make it OK to do so. Did I miss any?
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If not manufacturing and STEM skills, then what will America have to be viable in the global economy?
If we don't export food, mostly grains, the world starves.
Also we've carefully, methodically annihilated all domestic consumer good manufacture, yet we rule the roost in ultra heavy industry (100K ton mining draglines, 100 ton mining trucks, giant cranes, that kind of thing) and aerospace. There are international competitors, some of them quite good, especially if their govt helps them with dumping funds and tariffs on imported American machinery, but we hold our own quite well in those fields. If it weig
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Hyundai are no good in the heavy industry business? (ok, so they're no good at cars, but that's not where they excel)
Sure, I'd believe America doesn't import massive machinery, but I find it hard to believe they export anything significant. If it doesn't fit on a boat you get it anywhere economically.
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it is indeed cultural, but its not so much that the russians dont call nerds nerds, they do. its that good teachers are treasured (not always by higher salary, admittedly) and are given MUCH MUCH greater leeway in terms of pushing children to excellence.
there was an incident not long ago when a teacher was accused of sexual harassment, in russia, the parents of his pupils raised to his defense in perfect unison. which is indicative of the fact that a good teacher can be assured of support if he (or she) is
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i regret to say, if you did copy (good) russian schools, half of teachers would be fired and sued for child abuse.
oh, and by the way, russian teacher unions (where there is such a thing which its relatively rare) would _laugh their asses off_ if they knew a teacher can't prep for a class for more than an hour.
just saying.
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In America, a student who is good at math, science and CS is called a nerd. In Russia, such a kid is called smart. Seriously, Russia has always kicked ass in science and math education. We should copy their schools.
I have news for you. In a typical Russian school, a kid with a higher than average GPA would be called a Botanist (which is somehow considered stereotypically the most boring subject ever).
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I have news for you. In a typical Russian school, a kid with a higher than average GPA would be called a Botanist (which is somehow considered stereotypically the most boring subject ever).
The word "botanik" (which literally translates to "botanist") doesn't actually have to do anything with botany. It derives from "botan", which is to say, a person who always "botaet" - which is a contraction of "rabotat", "to work".
In other words, the Russian word for "nerd" is literally "a guy who works a lot".
Being one myself back in Soviet/Russian school I'd say that the attitudes these days are not dissimilar to the kind of experience American nerds describe, though perhaps slightly better because Russi
Re:Language? (Score:4, Informative)
As somebody raised in the Soviet Union I can totally confirm that. In Soviet Union culture (movies and even pop music) scientist or just smart in a scientific sense guy wins. A lot of Soviet era TV shows were about smart people competing (kinda like Jeopardy) and these shows made them TV stars and kids were looking up to them.
Unfortunatelly, this changing now. Partially due to American culture influence.
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It has already changed, more than a decade ago.
Russian Math Olympiad (Score:3)
I would think that these sorts of contests are something that new CS students would notice and prepare for. Now, this presents the opportunity of getting noticed by the West, the chance for getting a schlorship at a school like Berkley, and potentially employment at a rich American company being paid in dollars is icing on the cake.
Moreover... (Score:2)
And don't count on the translation programs... the problems are pretty complex and an automated translation would generate many ambiguities (or even mistakes).
Regarding the performance itself, from Round 1 (after the qualifications round) the problems are very Math-oriented. A competitor with a background in mathematics is clearly having a huge advantage. Even the
Australia highest ranked native English speaking (Score:1)
IME Russian coders are excellent (Score:2)
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But God help you if you need to maintain their code, because I absolutely guarantee you that they won't.
We wouldn't want to leave you good American folk jobless, so for every job of yours that we steal, we create two more. It's called proletarian solidarity, comrade!
Eastern Europe education + self-confidence impact? (Score:5, Informative)
Take a look - it's not just Russia with high scores, but also Belarus, Czech Republic, Poland, Slovakia and Ukraine.
Western nations fare much worse, especially as a percentage of guys who make throught. It seems as if more people in USA were convinced of their skills and participated, while EE attracted only those who actually have the skill. This corresponds with real life and self-confidence. EE people seem to judge themselfes harder than others and don't participate in such events even if they have skills.
In any case it's sad to notice that excellent programming skills do not translate to excellent commercial success - many of those talented work for Western companies, do not create good domestic ones.
Feel free to point out if I'm wrong here.
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Take a look - it's not just Russia with high scores, but also Belarus, Czech Republic, Poland, Slovakia and Ukraine.
i.e. countries that were all socialist in the past, and had inherited their education system from that period.
There's a lot of negatives that can be said about the USSR and other regimes aligned with it, but one thing they never skirted on was solid scientific education - especially after all the bullshit with Lysenko and Marr and other "proletarian sciences" was thrown out after Stalin.
54% of Russians have a college degree (Score:2)
54% of Russians have a college degree. That's the highest percentage in the world. Why are you surprised that they win competitions that require high IQ?
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54% of Russians have a college degree because it's free to get. In the USSR, it was free if you were good enough to pass the exams (and that percentage was lower). Today, it's free if you're rich enough to pay a bribe to get in.
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Yes. It's cheaper to bribe to pass the entry exams that let you get free education than it is to pay for it properly.
Well, it depends on the uni in question. I haven't heard of anyone able to bribe their way into the Moscow State University, for example, or into MIPT.
No Indian in Final List (Score:1)
Education system? (Score:1)
What?.... (Score:1)
No "I for one welcome" joke??
Language Bias (Score:2)
I was looking at the stats to see why Brazil and other S.American countries didn't fair so well (Brazil had 520+ participants!). When look through the first problem I see that it makes reference to something that is "one-to-one" and "onto". While many Americans know that a "one-to-one" function is an injective function and an "onto" function is "surjective" many people from other cultures/languages may have a hard time understading what they're referring to.
Since this is a programming contest and not a lang
Re:It's the cold and Isolation (Score:5, Insightful)
Then computers in the prisons should be a good rehab route?
Re:It's the cold and Isolation (Score:5, Insightful)
Now, internet access and such is another point because that could be used to communicate with other criminals outside.. but having a library of programming books and personal computers for prisoners would be a good way to change those people. Programming books being just example, there could be other things too. The main point being; yes, it is much better to try to get those prisoners life back on track instead of just punishing them.
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I'm just one of those old-fashoned type people that think that prison should be a strong deterrent against breaking the law. Violate someone else's rights and find yourself in a hole with all your privileges taken away for awhile.
As it is now, go to prison, get free health care, free internet access, free weight room, free cable tv, free library, free sports, free laundry, free education, free housing, free food, free clothing, free dental.
Must be n
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Your lack of sympathy is absolutely shocking. You seriously think that people should be locked up for decades (mostly for drug charges), with no access to exercise or entertainment? That people should be forced to sit in concrete rooms for 20 years at a time? Of course, it's all about YOU, of course, but still. This level of crass disregard
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The best stats I could find quickly are here [bop.gov], and show drug offenses at (a somewhat surprising to me) 48%. Lump in immigration at 12% and you've covered most of the non-rights-violators at 60%.
Then add up Weapons, Explosives, Arson, Robbery, Burglary, Larceny, Property Offenses, Extortion, Fraud, Bribery, Homicide, Aggravated Assault, and Kidnappi
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(and this is ignoring the reality that a lot of druggies fund their habit using predatory behavior, and have a lot of collateral damage on their friends and family - saying "they're not hurting anyone but themselves" doesn't cut it when their kids haven't eaten a square meal in months because mommy has to have her crack)
then the charge should have been child abuse not drug use.
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2012 is here (Score:2)
There is still time to repent.
Those who lack love and peace shall be flushed out.
A real libertarian should support a one-world currency, along with one world government, one-world election to elect an one-world leader.
An old Chinese wisdom: You should sacrifice yourself for the big cause.
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I'm just one of those old-fashoned type people that think that prison should be a strong deterrent against breaking the law. Violate someone else's rights and find yourself in a hole with all your privileges taken away for awhile.
I would think that, if you want what's best for the innocent, law-abiding citizenfolk, what we should really be after is whatever measures will minimize the risk of recidivism - after all, it's too late to prevent the original crime. So do you have data that shows that a "deterrence" policy works best to reduce recidivism? Or are you really after some kind of righteous "retribution"?
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In America, religious beliefs and racism trumps expert studies.
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Compared to how some people live on the street, prison is living it large. I've read numerous accounts of people getting out of jail, and deliberately doing something to get thrown back into jail. (like walking into a bank with a gun, get handed some cash, and wait for the police) For many, the tradeoff of freedom of movement is a welcome trade for all tha
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I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic, but yes, people should have access to computers in prison. Unlike in USA, many other countries do actually try to get prisoners back to being normal, productive people instead of just punishing them. Now, internet access and such is another point because that could be used to communicate with other criminals outside.
Actually, you might be surprised [prisonpc.com]. Some prisons do provide web and email access, albeit extremely filtered, logged, etc. The issue at hand is that the vast majority of work-place jobs require some interaction with a keyboard and screen, and that without adequate experience with computers then ex-offenders' job prospects include only labouring work and similar. The cost of recidivism is far higher than the cost of rehabilitation (assuming the offender wants to be rehabilitated, of course).
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Then computers in the prisons should be a good rehab route?
Yes, that's why they will be opposed.
In the land of for-profit prisons, the last thing you want is rehabilitation.
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Who's saying it already hasn't?
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What is it with all the comments mentioning the education system as if it's clearly and obviously the primary factor in the difference between countries?
People who excel in any particular field tend to do so despite the education system, which in every country tends to focus on the average and does not cater to those who are highly driven or capable. Russia is no exception to this.
People focus on it, because it actually makes a difference. In particular, education there does focus on higher-than average kids.
To give a specific example, in Russia, tertiary education is free if you can pass the corresponding exams. So are specialized schools that focus heavily on science. So if you're good at math, for example, you end up in such a school, glide through it (don't get me wrong, it's still hard work and they cut you no slack - but you're there because you can do it), and then right into
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Where is the evidence that the systems are different enough to be significantly noticeable? Where is the evidence that they do help those who are above average?
All the evidence I need is my background growing up in one.
I'm not saying that there is no cultural bias or other factors that may also affect the effect observed here, but the difference in education system is certainly very big, and is obviously affecting it in a big way.