Women's Enrollment In Computer Science Correlates Negatively With Net Access 314
New submitter MoriT sends this excerpt from a post examining the correlation between women's enrollment in computer science programs at college and their access to the internet. "There is currently a responsibility-dodging contest between industry and academia over who is to blame for the declining enrollment of women in Computer Science and declining employment of women in software development. I hear people in industry bemoan the 'empty pipeline,' while academics maintain that women aren't entering their programs because of perceptions of the industry. I have compiled some data that may help resolve the question by highlighting a third factor common to both: access to an Internet-based culture of computing. ... I conclude that in the last 10 years among many Northern European nations, rising Internet access is correlated with falling interest in computer science relative to other professions among women. The group of Mediterranean nations that show a positive correlation should be a fruitful area for future research, but seem outliers from the Northern cohort."
Correlation/Causation? (Score:4, Insightful)
We can't confuse correlation with causation. While this might be a third factor, what other factors may be involved?
Re:Correlation/Causation? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Correlation/Causation? (Score:5, Funny)
scant [...] women
Pics or it didn't happen!
Oh crap, I think I just proved the point. :-P
Re:Correlation/Causation? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Correlation/Causation? (Score:5, Interesting)
My experience with my daughter and her girl scout friends is that once the get to middle school, a lot of pressure is put on them not to like math. From TV, to parents, to other kids.
Now, I don't stand for that nonsense, and my daughter(11) is learning algebra through summer.
Yes, I am a mean dad that has actual summer goals for his kids. Fear not trolls*, it's only an hour a day in the mornings for math and Spanish, and an hour for electronics in the evening.
My kids have plenty of time to goof off; which is important. And frankly there more you know about science, math and electronics, the more interesting their goof off time is anyways.
*Not necessarily the person I am replying, to, but to a bunch of people who don't have kids but a wealth of stupid advice.
Re:Correlation/Causation? (Score:4, Interesting)
Yup, my daughter's (11 yr old) also into Lego robotics and starting middle school next year. She's learning welding, helping to tear down a big block Chevy, and video editing this summer. She already has the "I'm a geek and don't care what you think" attitude so hopefully, will stay on her current tech/science track.
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And if you keep her BMI between 19 and 23 you'll need to add martial arts to that and send her to school with a stick to beat off all the men who'll propose to her on the spot.
p.s. She wouldn't happen to have a sister with similar interests about twice as old would she?
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I've always encouraged my kids to follow their interests. I'm a geek, my daughter's mother is a geek. My son's mother is an idiot, but he turned out OK.
Who gives a fuck, really? (Score:4, Insightful)
I mean really...what does it matter? There's more men in football too...is this such a bad thing?
There's fields where there are more women than men...is anyone bellyaching about this? If not...why?
I keep seeing this harped on....and I don't know why? Unless there is some mass conspiracy to discriminate letting women into comp sci. programs....I don't see what is wrong. Discrimination would be one thing...and I don't see anyone suggesting that. But lack of interest should be perfectly acceptable. Are we also going to start bitching that there are too many Oriental folks getting into comp sci. math or physics and less Caucasians? More men in coal mines than women? X race females more than another race of females and men?
It is called choice.....what's wrong with that? People are different.
The sexes are different....geez, accept it and lets go on with life.....it just doesn't matter.
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We care because we should be worried about the reasons for the disparity. If we really did know that women didn't go into computer science (to name but one of many many fields that seem to repel women) because of the way their brains were wired from birth, then that would be one thing. But we don't know that. In the meantime it's important to figure out the cause. If it's caused by the way our society educates and otherwise shapes the minds of young girls, then we gain the opportunity to correct those mista
Re:Correlation/Causation? (Score:5, Insightful)
There's some other problems: there's a bunch of other fields that men are dominant in, yet we don't see much push to get more women into those fields:
- construction
- truck driving
- plumbing
- auto mechanics
- air conditioning service
- roofing
Why is there all this effort to push women into computer fields, but not these other fields? Why aren't people pushing little girls to get excited by a career where they unclog toilets and crawl around in shit? Why aren't people pushing girls to get excited about crawling on top of a hot roof in the middle of the summer and fix an A/C unit without falling off and dying?
The message here seems to be that it's OK for men to dominate really crappy and dangerous jobs that not that many people actually want to do, and only do because they have little choice, but for all the "good" jobs, we need to make sure there's equal numbers of men and women.
Similarly, there's no push to get equal numbers of men into female dominated jobs:
- nursing
- elementary school or kindergarten teachers
In fact, if any men try to get into that latter profession, they're deemed a pervert and probable child molester.
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Two things happenned, and they either both increased or decreased or didn't.
Surely they must be related!
Have you asked them? (Score:5, Insightful)
You know, rather than just guessing...
Re:Have you asked them? (Score:5, Funny)
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Whoooooo there buddy, this isn't womens' health, abortion or birth control we're talking about; women might understand computer science!
Re:Have you asked them? (Score:5, Funny)
Has anyone bothered to ask women directly
Yes, they did ask. But the women got all in a big huff, and snapped back, "You SHOULD know that already, and SHOULDN'T need to ask. You're simply don't CARE about us, or pay us any attention."
If it was computer geeks taking the survey, they probably wouldn't get any answers from females anyway, so they might as well try to create some abstract association.
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And that kind og joke is why women don't go into the field.
OTOH, you think women are your's for the herding, so I shouldn't expect you to be civil.
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No. For one of two reasons: (a) It's more fun to guess, or (b) If we ask, then women have to be involved, and that's just not fun anymore.
Seriously, though, how do you ask 1/2 the population why they didn't choose something when, realistically, it may not have even been a conscious choice? Why didn't you choose to be a rocket scientist, seal trainer, glass blower, welder, photographer, astronomer, musician . . . . . .
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I don't really buy this. While obviously, any survey of people to find out why they didn't choose to go into any random field is going to be of dubious usefulness, it'd still be better than simply guessing, which is what's going on here.
For instance, I can give you answers to all the above.
Rocket scientist: no jobs in that industry when I was in college (early 90s). We used to joke to our Aerospace Engineering buddies about how they'd be unemployed.
Seal trainer: no real interest in marine animals to that
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while some women will just say "little interest", others who have considered it
That was actually my argument. It's not that they choose to NOT be in CS. It's that the choice isn't ever considered because of the state of the internet/culture. It's not that I didn't choose this thing, it's that I was conditioned by forces out of my control to never even think about it as a valid option for my future. Sexism/discrimination isn't (usually) overt.
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I can't tell if you're a female, but your writing implies it. But I agree with the other responder, this is pretty dumb. If someone asked me "why didn't you go into [female-dominated field]", I'm sure I could come up with an answer better than "I didn't even consider it", with no information at all beyond that. For instance, primary school teaching: I don't get along that well with small children, plus these days any man who goes into that field is assumed to be a pervert and treated as such. Or how abo
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Sorry, I don't buy it. If someone asks me if I considered a particular job when I was younger, there's no way to give them an honest answer, because I don't remember every thought I ever had, and for most jobs, considering them would have taken all of about 2 seconds of thought. "Ditch digger: crappy pay, crappy work environment, crappy coworkers". "Truck driver: mediocre pay, away from home all the time, long hours, boring as hell, talking to other truckers on CB is not interesting." Seriously, how muc
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Asking a bunch of men "what made you choose IT/CS" isn't going to tell you anything about women's attitudes about the profession. Finding a bunch of women who did consider it, but chose against it, isn't exactly going to be easy (how would you find a group like that anyway?). So my contention is that the best you're realistically going to get is just to ask a bunch of women why they didn't seriously consider it, and see what the responses are. Most of them will probably be a simple "no interest", but of
Re:Have you asked them? (Score:4, Insightful)
I wonder if maybe Men and Women have different interests?
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I think the short answer is that women are more social than us, and I think it's more nature than nurture. Even at a very young age girls will play more social games with dolls, boys are more interested in action. Fast forward 20 years and you have women that want to work with children and in health care while men want to be engineers and software developers because one is about people and the other about things. Of course that's a gross over-generalization, but you see the same split here in Norway which h
Re:Have you asked them? (Score:4, Interesting)
Has anyone bothered to ask women directly why they chose not to do Computer Science?
You know, rather than just guessing...
I know you're probably going for the laughs, but if X% decide to go into almost entirely female nursing or early childhood education or mostly female education, then you're going to have a hell of a time convincing an extra X% to go into CS just to balance it out.
You're really screwed (uh, metaphorically, although it worked out for me practically) if there are more female nursing students than your entire engineering school. You need quotas, not so much to keep the boys out of engineering and CS, but to keep the girls out of ed and marketing and nursing.
I'd be unholy pissed off at the world if I were forced into early childhood education just to "get the ratios correct", and I'm sure the chicks being forced into neckbeard-land would be equally pissed.
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I would be pissed if someone was forced into a position as well, but that doesn't mean we should ask why women , or any group, chose one field of another.
It is a very male competitive industry.
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It's one thing to ask, but most of these come with the implication that the current ratios are wrong and need correcting. Sexism is wrong and shouldn't be tolerated, but that goes both ways. Are women really too stupid to figure out what they want to do? I don't think so.
The person who got me into CS is a woman - one of my highschool teachers. Every nerd needs that person that takes the interest and focuses it into something concrete - and she was that person for me. I couldn't have more respect for women i
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It will correct, but not until it starts to return to actual engineering, and not some ad hoc crap fest.
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Comment removed (Score:5, Interesting)
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I propose alternative idea, and it's the same reason why we see more male Ph.Ds than female Ph.Ds in the sciences:
- Women recognize a deadend, inherently unsocial job when they see one.
I know if I could turn-back time I'd choose a different career. Ph.D is extremely low-paying relative to the amount of work to get it (assuming you don't just flunk out as many do). And programming is high-paying but is basically a dead end career with long hours & little social interaction (except with your computer).
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While that theory is nice to women, the fact is that they tend (for reasons that have yet to be understood) to have their own brand of dead-end, crap job. There's a high concentration of women in liberal arts, history, biology, and languages, as well as architecture, and they do get their PhDs there after being properly exploited, and then go nowhere.
I am dismayed at how the 21st century has turned work into a pointless hamster wheel for
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Or less developed countries have more women in sciences.
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This is a pretty interesting idea, and one that I'm inclined to ascribe some level of truth.
Ask yourself, did (almost entirely female) schoolteacher blogs scare me away from being a kindergarten teacher? Uh, no, I think a lifetime of wiping snotty noses scared me away.
In retrospect my social life would have been more fun in a "mostly female" major. Yet another "what was I thinking" moment from my youth. Imagine a 25 person marketing class consisting of me, and 24 lonely future booth babes.
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I don't get it (Score:2)
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This seems likely. I went to college in early 80s and there was a big demand in programming or computer science (not the same things). There was an impression by parents that this was the way to get your kids into a reliable job in a growing field, and that's the most important thing most parents look at. Today it's different; computers are ubiquitous and not as mysterious, and the job market is glutted and full of low level service oriented jobs (IT) that are steadily being outsourced. It's just not th
Women are (Score:2)
"There is currently a responsibility-dodging contest between industry and academia over who is to blame for the declining enrollment of women in Computer Science
Women are. Or are we still forwarding the lie that women don't make their own choices, and need to be coddled/cajoled/hand-held into taking jobs in industries they don't care about?
Re:Women are (Score:5, Interesting)
What amuses me is the number of feminists who criticizing the disproportionate representation of women in science and math who never tried to advance beyond a high school education in those subjects. The women I have met in engineering were tough, knew how to put down sexually offensive comments before things got out of hand (I do not think anyone can reasonably expect offensive comments to never occur -- but there is a point at which those comments become a problem, and the women I am referring could stop that from happening with a few well-chosen words), and hated the special status women receive during admissions to engineering schools (they felt it belittled their abilities).
Why is this even an issue? (Score:4, Insightful)
>> who is to blame for the declining enrollment of women in Computer Science
Blame? really? Last time I checked, people have a free choice as to what field they want to work/study in. If women choose not to do CS then its entirely their choice. No one is to blame.
Why is the ratio of men to women in CS even an issue? Its not intrinsically wrong that it mostly attracts men. Can we end this sexist crap please?
There are plenty of professions that have a significant majority of women:
http://jobs.aol.com/articles/2010/07/27/where-women-work/ [aol.com]
I don't see any corresponding massive outcry about how to get more men in those fields.
We just need to offer equal education opportunities to both genders and employ people based on merit not gender. Positive discrimination is still discrimination.
If there's a shortage of CS grads for employers to hire then its a supply and demand problem not a gender issue. Employers will just have to suck it up and pay developers what they're worth in the free market. Oh noes! the horror! Who knows, that might even lead to more people choosing to do a CS degree. Problem solved.
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I wonder if there are a bunch of "Why aren't there more men in nursing?" articles over on some Nursing message board.
Re:Why is this even an issue? (Score:4, Funny)
As a guy I'd have gone into nursing but those little dresses and stockings make my butt look big.
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Now if there was only some way we could find out. Hmmm....
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Sure, end the sexist crap. Start with the Ruby and Flash developer conferences.
Example #1 - Teaching (Score:5, Insightful)
You think CS is bad for sexism - try being a teacher, where you not only have to worry about society judging you, but also potentially lawsuits.
The number of male elementary school teachers is declining exponentially, and a big reason is simply that men are worried (and rightfully so) that they could be subject to a lawsuit or a sex offense charge for any number of routine workplace occurrences.
It is a very sad state of affairs. At least women in CS don't have to worry about being placed on a state sex offender registry because of their career choice.
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Why is the ratio of men to women in CS even an issue? Its not intrinsically wrong that it mostly attracts men. Can we end this sexist crap please?
In a nutshell, the more women participate in society, the better off society is. If women are avoiding the field because it's populated with slimeballs, then both society and the field itself suffers as a result. A situation doesn't have to be "intrinsically wrong" (whatever that means) to warrant rectifying... just suboptimal.
There are plenty of professions that have a significant majority of women. I don't see any corresponding massive outcry about how to get more men in those fields.
Fixing the gender imbalances among, say, waiters or garbage collectors isn't going to be a priority because those fields aren't influential or strategic. They're more like temporary o
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Your list gives essentially the equivalent of "construction work" for men. As well, it also reflects that many women don't care to be the breadwinner of the household, and are only interested in taking jobs with flexible schedules. The why of that should be fairly obvious.
The other thing I want to point out is that though there may be an overall societal discrimination against women going into math and engineering fields, there's also the fact that these are relatively introverted professions. As women tend
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>> As well, it also reflects that many women don't care to be the breadwinner of the household, and are only interested in taking jobs with flexible schedules. The why of that should be fairly obvious.
Jeez if only guys had that option. And nope the why of that is not obvious at all, other than women want an easy life and many guys are stupid enough to put up with working all day to support them while they kick back at home.
Women say they want equality but they actually mean favoritism. They generally
Re:Why is this even an issue? (Score:4, Insightful)
Spoken like the ignorant white middle class male you most likely are
Yeah, speaking of prejudice...
Last time you checked?
Last time I checked, my undergrad EE program received 0 female applicants my year. What do you think we should have done about that? Women were not applying; that was not our fault, so stop blaming us. By the way, women do as well as men when they do bother to apply to engineering programs:
http://www.purdue.edu/uns/x/2009b/090804OhlandEngineering.html [purdue.edu]
those are for the most part low-status, low-paying servant style jobs
Oh, so I guess we do not really care about gender equality in lower status jobs. What was that you said about the middle class? You know, that stupid, insulting, derogatory reference you made to middle class white men? Sounds like you think the middle class is the only thing worth focusing on, and moreover, only the upper middle class.
Yet as anyone who has dealt with feminists knows, that's the story with 21st century feminism. Back in the 70s, feminists were trying to ensure that women had equal opportunities in both high-status and low-status jobs -- like sanitation work. Today, feminists have fallen into the same trap as everyone else, belittling and ignoring blue collar work and focusing only on glamorous, "You can be part of the 1% if you try hard enough!" careers.
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Bad analogy when engineering is a highly competitive field. People work hard and *want* to become engineers and those who apply and don't get in, or drop out before they finish will probably still be building and tinkering with stuff their whole lives.
I have no clue why there's a split on gender lines, but it seems really unfair to discriminate against the people who do apply because their gender is overrepresented.
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Well done for a complete fail on about 90% or your assumptions about me and your lame attempt to present a well-reasoned argument.
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Blame? really? Last time I checked, people have a free choice as to what field they want to work/study in. If women choose not to do CS then its entirely their choice. No one is to blame.
Spoken like the ignorant white middle class male you most likely are. Last time you checked? That would be never, you're not paying any fucking attention.
I've heard the same thing at the office from various women, you aren't going to attract quality workers to a field by overselling it or forcing them into it. While people tend to agree that the IT fields in have an overall image problem, it's also not something that is going to change over night either as cultural changes require time. Furthermore, most women who are still college, that I have talked to also indicate they aren't exactly too interesting in working in a high stress field with the perception o
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Why the fuck am I even talking to you. Bah. *shudders*
You aren't talking to anyone, thoughtout this article. You have, however, been ranting, throwing polemics, and generally making an ass of yourself. If you would make even a half-hearted attempt to make a cogent statement, perhaps you would get similar in return.
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Wait what?
I advocate total equality of opportunity and merit-based hiring then you accuse me of dickswinging whatever?
How does that work again?
You sound like one of those radical feminists that wants the 'pick and choose' style of equality.
BTW I have a 7yr old kid myself.
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Maybe reread that sentence a few times and then ask what it says about you. Or at least I hope you understand that even if one has free choice that actually working in the field of choice can be made unbearable by the general attitude of co-workers and management.
Oh, and I take 'radical feminist' as a compliment, it even made my testicles tickle a little ;-)
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It's exactly this virtual flaccid urine dripping dick swinging attitude that keeps women away.
Um, what "virtual flaccid urine dripping dick swinging attitude"? His point was
Last time I checked, people have a free choice as to what field they want to work/study in.
I fail to see how one could read that as a "virtual flaccid urine dripping dick swinging attitude".
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The whole "I don't see the problem, so it doesn't exists".
Cold you post the quote where he says that? I missed it.
In this case "free choice" is used to wave away the actual problems one encounters when working in the field of choice, chosen so freely.
So, he's using the fact that people have free choice to... show that people don't have free choice?
What?
You're incoherent.
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I'm sorry, I just continue to read this reply and all I get from it is that you made a sexist argument and can't approach backing it up.
Nothing you said there in any way resembles the truth about his post, but more importantly, none of it, by any measure, supports your grossly sexist claim of ""virtual flaccid urine dripping dick swinging attitude".
This is hardly specific to computer science... (Score:2)
Practically all the disciplines that lean heavily on mathematical aptitude are affected by the gender gap: Engineering, physical science, computer science, and of course mathematics itself.
I can't say I understand exactly why this is so, but it seems that women simply do not demonstrate the same level of interest and aptitude in mathematics as men do. Certainly I have never noticed any actual gender discrimination that goes on in these fields, or at least not by anybody who has any credibility. That
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I can't say I understand exactly why this is so,
No, but we can rule out certain things:
http://www.purdue.edu/uns/x/2009b/090804OhlandEngineering.html [purdue.edu]
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And many women do get these. Far more little boys are given toy trucks and guns to play with than anything electronic or computer oriented.
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Its (Score:5, Funny)
...because women and hard logic are such a natural mix.
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...because women and hard logic are such a natural mix.
You're not making a great case for men and hard logic, either.
More logic in other article... (Score:2)
Which companies? (Score:2)
While I'm sure the data quoted is accurate, I'm not seeing it here locally. In my group (20 of us, QA + development product group in a networking products company with about 2,000 employees), 9 are female, and an eyeball-survey says that this is about normal for the rest of the engineering organization. Same for candidates whom I interview; about half are female.
Where are all these all-male companies? Could other tech-oriented industries (defense, etc.) be getting lumped in with Silicon Valley style compa
The reason for decline of women in software dev... (Score:2)
....is simply due to women in general realizing software is just a bunch of made up egotistical mindset crap.
Don't believe me? wait a little bit and you'll see an article to the contrary, that there is an increase of women in software dev.
And it won't be the first time this babel has happened regarding women in software decline/incline.
Internet Harassment (Score:4, Insightful)
There are also a number of comments about how the women who are in the industry know how to handle the macho bullshit that gets tossed around, implying that it's therefore okay i guess, since some women can put up with it and not all of them are being forced out of the industry. Well of course the women who are still around can handle it, selection bias much? That doesn't mean they should _have_ to handle it though.
You know, every time there's a story about some company, or even most of an entire industry, doing something assholeish to its employees people pop out of the woodwork to say something about how the free market will correct the issue because all the good employees will find work at companies that treat them properly, and the companies abusing their employees will thus inevitable fail. I wonder how much that group overlaps with the group that think women ought to just suck it up when they're treated poorly.
It's funny how when a company/industry/environment treats all their employees badly it's the company that's at fault. This libertarian/republican/conservative viewpoint is that it's up to the employees to fix the problem, but at least the company is still clearly designated as the problem in the equation. But suddenly when the company/industry/environment is specifically targeting women for bad treatment, whether that's intentional or not, and the women choose to go elsewhere, it's not the free market responding to the fault of the company, it's the fault of the women for not being willing to put up with the shit they're dealt.
TFA (Score:2)
TFA didn't even consider the most well known explanation, which others here have mentioned, more or less: women are, by and large, more likely to take jobs for job satisfaction rather than to maximize their income to support their family (sometimes because they expect their spouse to be the primary breadwinner). Someone who acts like that is not going to want to go into the computer field, which is notorious for long hours and overtime (but high pay) and low job satisfaction.
And of course, the more interne
Women aren't migratory (Score:3)
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If these IT, CS, and Software Engineering jobs are so terrible, how do you explain all these surveys and exercises in ranking routinely putting those careers near or at the top of their lists?
Not saying they can't be horrible jobs. Seems more likely these rankings are failing to account for a number of things. Or is it that every other field really is worse?
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"but the pay should at least be attracting anyone smart."
why? Smart people generally do what they love. Moderate level intelligence go where the money is. Hence the jump in low skill computing ability in 97-00
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Exactly. Access to the internet, and being around people in the industry, has made western women aware of what the industry is really like, so they're steering clear of it.
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Most of us know that a degree in Computer Science is FAR more related to mathematics
That's based on the assumption Barbie can't do math, therefore no comp sci. However very nearly a majority of the math grads and profs I know are women (in fact I'm pretty sure there are more F than M). The M/F ratio is much more favorable in the math dept than the CS dept. In fact the only bigger sausage fest than CS that I have ever experienced was 100% male EE. Now if you claimed EE was scaring chicks away from CS you might have a point. Maybe.
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We had a decent fraction of women when I was in CS, undergrad or graduate, and a growing number of female CS profs as well.
CS as a whole I think is doing ok in terms of women, though it could be better. However, CS is not IT and I think IT does have problems in this regard.
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Not exactly. Many engineering fields (including computer-related ones) actually pay pretty well in starting salaries. The problem is that this is very short-lived; after 5-10 years, all your friends that went into medicine will be making much more money, while yours will have then reached a cap, and you can look forward to only inflationary increases unless you go into management.
So unless you plan to use your engineering or CS degree as a stepping stone to something bigger and better, it really isn't wor
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Can someone explain to me why it matters if more or less women are studying computer science?
Because we're tired of it being a sausage fest?
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Can someone explain to me why it matters if more or less women are studying computer science?
Because we're tired of it being a sausage fest?
And?
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I do not have anything to back this up, but my suspicion is that women are not only underrepresented but HUGELY underrepresented in this field.
So? The question was, "Why should we care?"
So, tell us: Why should we care? Do you even have a reason to care, or is it just because everyone told you that you should care?
It's a white collar job.
Typical concern of 21st century feminists. Women are also underrepresented in blue collar jobs, but feminists stopped caring about that decades ago.
Am I on to something here or is this nonsense?
No, it is nonsense. Women are not applying to CS, EE, CpE, or IT programs; the problem is not in those programs, which have gotten to the point of bending over backwards to attra
Re:Stop what? How about fuck you? (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm sorry I'm being mean, but goddamn it, you guys. I'm sick of hearing this same tired bullshit, as though it occurred to no one to actually look the fuck around and see that this defensive attitude toward ignoring the fucking problem and hoping it goes away is making shit worse
You're not being mean, you're being gullible.
First, The lack of focus on diversity
doesn't exist, and should have been your first clue you were swallowing a load. Just look at the extensive and well documented attempts to introduce "diversity". The idea that there is ANY lack of focus on diversity is quite frankly, ridiculous.
Second you cite "negative experiences" as though it were lynching and sexual harassment, and not "long hours, tedious work, and a lack of social opportunities".
In short, you bought a line.
Re:Stop what? How about fuck you? (Score:5, Insightful)
Pretty much.
Women don't go into IT/CS fields for the same reason that they don't go into, say, Engineering all that often: they don't fit in. Most women are still looking for a career for its socially-expanding capabilities. First and foremost, that means it's going to pay well, and second of all, it's going to allow them to rub shoulders with people they both want to socialize with and who might do some good for their social/personal life in the long term.
Just because many (most) women no longer see college as a marriage prep school to culture them and help them find a wealthy husband does not mean that they are not sating the same underlying desires.
IT/CS fields do not pay well compared to other fields, such as those you can enter with advanced degrees in medicine and law. It is nowhere near as prestigious as either. Their predispositions lead to them picking submissive disciplines, like paralegal and nursing as a result of this (and resulting in the mythical gender wage gap).
IT/CS fields are unforgiving, unrelenting, and unappreciated in society as a whole. They're hard. Why would anyone in their right mind, and who doesn't have an arcane ability for bullshitting people into thinking they're competent, who doesn't have an underlying love for what they're doing, get into this? They don't.
Chalk this one up to women, by and large, being much more socially perceptive than men. Particularly men of the geeky persuasion.
Re: (Score:3)
IT/CS fields are unforgiving, unrelenting, and unappreciated in society as a whole.
Exactly. This is pretty much the combination that guarantees a low turnout of anyone who does not fit a very specific demographic. Women, in general, don't seem to fit that demographic. If it's because of some social ill, it has causes which reach women far before they hit college. Blaming academia or industry, in that case, is simply moronic. If you think women don't enter IT in the same numbers as men, you need to find the
Re:Bullshit PC question yields bullshit PC results (Score:4, Insightful)
if gender equality is so very important then why aren't ... women encouraged to join professions such as 'coal miner' or 'oil rig workers'
Long ago, in an earlier age of feminism, that was considered a worth goal. Feminists worked hard to give women opportunities to work in blue collar jobs -- sanitation, factory work, railroads, mining, etc. Then one day, the libertarians convinced everyone that the only jobs that matter are white collar jobs, and the next generation of feminists fell into the trap of believing that. Suddenly, feminists stopped worry about blue collar work, and started focusing on white collar professions, since as everyone knows, white collar work is the only kind of work people should aspire to. Simultaneously, feminists grew to despise lower class women, because those women did not fall into feminists' idealized vision of the successful, professional (i.e. white collar professional) woman who has "equal access" to joining the 1% (equal to men, which is to say, only an illusion of access).
This century's feminists love the upper middle class, white-collar, middle-management suburban woman. That is all they are worried about. When forced to answer questions about women in blue collar professions, today's feminists base all their answers on the assumption that those women are desperately fighting to get a white collar position (not true).
Re: (Score:3)
the libertarians
Wait you really just seriously blamed "the libertarians" for convincing people that "the only jobs that matter are white collar jobs"?
The same libertarians that haven't really mattered politically or culturally until the last year or so?
And you think they talk DOWN blue collar jobs?
Do you even know what a libertarian is? Because your post seems to prove you don't. What is up with this sudden rush to blame everything you don't like in the world on a group of irrelevant politicos? By making claims that are
Re: (Score:2)
libertarians? Explain how they factored at all. The feminists so far as I know tend to be fairly far left of center and the libertarians are opposed at a philosophical level to just about everything feminists believe beyond that women should have equal opportunities and rights.
Re:Bullshit PC question yields bullshit PC results (Score:4, Funny)
See, it's jokes like that which get us in trouble.
Re: (Score:2)
In trouble with whom exactly? Twits that don't know the difference between rom and ram. They can sit on it and spin.
Re: (Score:2)
Woooshhh!!