Clay Shirky On Hackers and Depression: Where's the Love? 319
giminy writes "Clay Shirky has a thought-provoking piece on depression in the hacker community. While hackers tend to be great at internet collaboration on software projects, we often fall short when it comes to helping each other with personal problems. The evidence is only anecdotal, but there seems to be a higher than average incidence of mental health issues among hackers and internet freedom fighters. It would be great to see this addressed by our community through some outreach and awareness programs."
License? (Score:5, Funny)
It would be great to see this addressed by our community through some outreach and awareness programs.
I assume these programs would be released under the GPL, or some other open-source license?
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Even from an economic point of view (for you Libertarians out there), it makes absolutely no sense to fill up prisons with mentally ill people. It's robbing Peter to pay Paul. Sure mental health services get smaller on the budget sheet, but incarceration costs, policing costs and even less obvious ways this costs society go through the roof.
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It's not illegal (Score:3)
It's just no covered by the mental health systems in most place, predominantly due to mandatory treatment being outlawed as a violation of civil rights.
When you hold someone involuntarily, it's limited to a 72 hour hold, and it take an extreme act by the person for that yo last beyond 72 hours - see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5150_(Involuntary_psychiatric_hold) [wikipedia.org] . The typical reaction is treat-and-turf (get them back on their medication in the 72 hour window, then throw them out), or worst case, extended
Need to move beyond a disease model (Score:3)
"Although Obama's Affordable Care Act gives better access to treatment options for mentally ill persons: ..."
Things like nutrition, positive psychology, physical infrastructure, life opportunities, community and so on can make a huge difference in mental health. But they are not generally covered as treatments by insurance. Similarly, health insurance may pay $100K for a heart operation, but it won't pay a penny towards the healthy food needed to stay physically and mentally well.
http://www.drfuhrman.com/li [drfuhrman.com]
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FIghting the system is a mental health issue (Score:5, Insightful)
Who is this guy, and why does his opinion matter?
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More normal than normal is our motto!
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clay_Shirky [wikipedia.org]
Re:FIghting the system is a mental health issue (Score:5, Insightful)
In all seriousness, there seems to be correlation between intelligence and tendency for depression.
It could be that being a hacker and being depressed are just two end products of being smarter than the average bear.
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In all seriousness, there seems to be correlation between intelligence and tendency for depression.
It could be that being a hacker and being depressed are just two end products of being smarter than the average bear.
And poets tend to be bipolar. And remember van Gogh and his ear. We happen to be a part of a distinguished society!
Re:FIghting the system is a mental health issue (Score:5, Insightful)
In all seriousness, there seems to be correlation between intelligence and tendency for depression.
The stupid don't realise how fucked up things are.
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And, the "stupid" tend to regard geeks as aberrations. Even when one knows that one's special skills (and accompanying unique traits) are valuable, being widely regarded as weird and being made to feel out-of-place nearly everywhere one goes does tend to make one brood.
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Re:FIghting the system is a mental health issue (Score:5, Interesting)
I used to think depression was an intrinsic part of my personality, like introversion. Then I started taking Vitamin D supplements and the depression went away. I'm still a misanthropic curmudgeon, but I'm a *happy* misanthropic curmudgeon.
My point is, you don't have to give up the things you like about yourself in order to get over depression. And in some cases it can be as simple as turning on a flourescent light [wikipedia.org] or taking a cheap over-the-counter vitamin.
Re:FIghting the system is a mental health issue (Score:5, Funny)
Oops. That's not the Vitamin D. We mislabeled the Prozac.
So Sorry.
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I experienced the exact same results as you. I now take 4000iu each day and I no longer get terrible winter depression each year. In fact it is winter right now, and I feel fantastic. My energy levels are normal and I don't yearn to be in bed all day.
I think living in an office year round has really taken its toll on my health. Vitamin D fixed all the mental health symptoms I had.
Now if I could just get off my fat ass and exercise to fix the rest of me...
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Does it out perform placebo control in double blind studies?
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I don't care. My doctor said Vitamin D deficiency causes various problems including depression. He recommended a dosage. I tried it, it worked. A sample size of one is all I personally need.
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That's how people who get conned by psychics, mediums, reflexologists, magnet therapists, etc, etc, think. Hell, that's how audiophiles think. You're smarter than an audiophile, aren't you?
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So if a placebo cures *your* cancer you should try to get it to come out of remission?!?
That is essentially what you are advocating.
A sample size of one is all that is needed if it works for that one person, especially of the desired result is something like "happiness".
YMMV
YOUR milage may vary...
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At least placebos don't cause birth defects.
I always think there's something wrong with people who see placebos as the devil. Here is something that is totally free and is usually within 5-10% effectiviness of pills that cost billions and have thousands of side effects. Yes, let's all look down on the dumb people.
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The truth is, doctors aren't experts in everything. In fact, from my experiences with med students, they're not very bright at all. And once they're out of med school, they get most of their training from pharmaceutical representatives.
Never do anything your doctor suggests without checking to see if its sensible. He very well might be talking out of his ass, and not even know it. Their egos prevent them from acknowldging that they don't know everything. They put their personal experience above what the
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Perhaps they're just different from you. Medical school makes people kind of obsessive. All the actual, practicing doctors I know, both personally and as a patient, are at least as smart as the folks I encounter in IT.
A senior neurology fellow at Massachusetts General Hospital (read, "a very successful doctor") told me, while he was examining me, that me
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Why yes, yes it does.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9539254 [nih.gov]
So,out of curiosity - do you ask the same question whenever somebody says, "My doctor recommended this treatment for me, and it worked very well," or were you just going for "+5, Smug and Willfully Ignorant"?
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Yes, I do. And when my doctor offers me a treatment, I ask them the same thing. You'd be appalled at how often the answer is "I don't know."
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Cool, So you solution is to never try anything at all. Let us know how that's working out for ya :P
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BTW, here's [bmj.com] something a little more recent(2011).
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Funny, I show you a study that showed in a randomized, double-blind study, that Vitamin D supplementation was shown to be a statistically significant treatment for seasonal-related depressive symptoms. In response, you say "nuh-uh," and link a study that is a review of many studies and attempts to draw conclusions about Vitamin D's efficacy across all types of depression.
The fact that Vitamin D appears to be an effective treatment for one type of depression, but not all, does not negate its usefulness as a
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That's fair enough. I was thinking about Vitamin D for my own depression, which is not seasonally linked. The world does not suddenly get more just, or present more opportunity, just because the Earth's axis is pointed towards the sun.
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The science may be shaky, but in the case of a cheap solution with few if any negative side effects that does seem to work for many people it would be irresponsible *not* to try it before much more expensive/invasive solutions. Even if the cure is a placebo effect in many cases that doesn't make the patient any less cured, it simply means we don't actually understand the cause of the cure - there's a reason we use double-blind trials even in studies where the medical effects can be objectively measured. It
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How long have you've been taking them? If not long, how do you know it's not a placebo effect?
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I have an even more radical solution: Go outside and/or be near a window during the day.
If you're one of those lucky souls who has an office with windows, that is. Because otherwise, going outside for about 15 minutes probably isn't going to help all that much.
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In fairness, it can help dramatically - just 10 minutes in direct sunlight wearing shorts & a t-shirt is generally enough exposure for your daily Vitamin D needs, at least during the summer.
In winter, the UVB radiation doesn't penetrate the atmosphere as well / at all, depending on where you live, which means that an artificial lamp with the proper spectrum and/or supplementation might be helpful.
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If you're one of those lucky souls who has an office with windows, that is. Because otherwise, going outside for about 15 minutes probably isn't going to help all that much.
It does. Like you wouldn't believe. Before I got a light therapy lamp, I used to talk 10-20 minutes walks at lunch time whenever the sun shone, especially in winter. -10C? No problem, dress up and head out for a quick 10 minutes keeping the sun on my face as much as possible. You end up getting some nice sunlight and some minor cardio on the side.
Ultimately the blue light for 30-45 minutes in the morning worked better when my work schedule changed up, but it's all about trying SOMETHING to see what works b
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Re:FIghting the system is a mental health issue (Score:5, Insightful)
Actually it makes perfect sense. The more intelligence, the sooner a person will come to realize basic facts about the world, such as:
1. It is filled with injustice all around. Some of it can be fixed, most of it can not be fixed.
2. Most of what can be fixed will never actually be fixed, due to reasons such as status-quo and conflicts of interest, corruption, bribes, lobbying and differing ideologies.
3. Society has become so huge and complex that it is impossible for a single individual to effect meaningful change in a lot of issues, unless one becomes a professional politician, in which case, go back to point number two. Never mind that most intellectuals are not suited to this role due to the different skill-sets required (mainly social ones instead of analytical) The alternatives are extremes like blowing yourself or other people up, or more mildly, DDOSing the organisation that sparked your ire, or protesting by camping on the street. Either one is more likely to harm your cause than help it as people will either call you a 'terrorist', 'immature script-kiddie' or (soon to be) 'homeless bum who should be working instead of protesting'. Thus the hacker individually is powerless.
This comment turned out longer than I thought it would.
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The wise realize that a single individual has an impact on everything that he comes into contact with. Since we are in a closed system, every action you take has the potential to spread to all parts of the system. Choose your actions wisely.
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Figuring out the right solution to the problem is half of the battle.
Motivate others to your solution is the other half.
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Andrews found a significant correlation between depressed affect and individual performance on the intelligence test, at least once the subjects were distracted from their pain: lower moods were associated with higher scores. “The results were clear,” Andrews says. “Depressed affect made people think better.”
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Hell, we might eventually learn tools need to be maintained or they can't do their job properly anymore. It's going to be hard for a disposable culture to actually learn how to maintain body, mind, soul (whatever the hell the last one means).
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Let's put it another way: our thought processes are the result of years upon years of experiences building on top of one another. Any mental difference is bound to have a big result.
Perhaps we don't just think differently than the norm and get depressed and stuff because we're geeks and artists-.... perhaps we're artists and geeks because we think differently than the norm and grew up with a different viewpoint.
Re:FIghting the system is a mental health issue (Score:5, Insightful)
Clay Shirky [wikipedia.org] is a "writer, consultant and teacher on the social and economic effects of Internet technologies", something he's been doing since 1996. He has written a heck of a lot of stuff on the topic, and is presumably some sort of expert. He isn't just another blogger.
In this piece he says something that many people have said before, but is framing it in a different manner. The cultures and sub-cultures that we are part of need to be more caring. We need to be there for our friends and compatriots. We probably can't help much, most of aren't professionals. But simply being there and being supportive is helpful.
The thing is, that people do kill themselves. There are various reasons, some of them can be fixed easily. E.g. by adjusting chemical balances in the brain. Others have an external cause. Some are harder to fix, but might include removing the cause of the problem (bullying or terrible conditions). Some of them can't be fixed. What we as a community can do is provide as much support to people as we can, and help them get the help they need.
Re:FIghting the system is a mental health issue (Score:4, Insightful)
He is not however a psychologist, psychiatrist, counselor, or any other form of mental health or medical professional. On those topics, he is indeed just another blogger.
The cynic in me says that since he is "writer and consultant", he's just riding the Aaron Swartz wave for hits and street cred. Next week he'll be off on whatever nine days wonder captures the attention of the blogosphere.
Re:FIghting the system is a mental health issue (Score:4, Interesting)
> The cultures and sub-cultures that we are part of need to be more caring
Actually, our communities DO tend to be "more caring" -- we just happen to have a different definition of "caring" than most people.
If somebody who's known on a computer/tech-related forum says that he's depressed because he feels overwhelmed by ${some-problem}, he'll get dozens or hundreds of replies, most of which will be genuine attempts to be helpful, with specific suggestions for things to try and solve that problem. Some might be from people willing to work quite hard to help solve their specific problem.
What he's NOT going to get are warm, fuzzy, "tell me about your feelings about the world's unjustness" replies.
It's just how we are. We're systemizers, not empaths.We love to solve problems. We get annoyed when people whine about things that can't be defined and constrained to some clear context or scope where it's possible to define what even CONSTITUTES a "solution"... unless we happen to be in a mood to commiserate. The fact that such commiseration tends to amplify, reinforce, and legitimize the other's depression is just an unfortunate side effect.
Imagine, for a moment, a hypothetical Slashdot story with a headline like "Joe Python is a programmer who wants to kill himself in the most efficient way possible... what are his options, what are the relative advantages and drawbacks of each, and what equipment will he need to procure in order to carry it out?" Does anybody doubt for a NANOSECOND that it wouldn't get several hundred replies, 90% of which would involve lethal injection cocktail recipes, nitrogen asphyxiation, pre-suicide arrangements for the care and feeding of pets, equipment reviews, countdown checklists (wipe computer, note passwords you want to share with others, update your will, etc) and other suggestions that are mostly intended to be helpful by posters for whom it doesn't quite sink in that the guy wants to literally kill himself?
We DO care. We'll work hard to solve the problems of people we care about. We just won't pretend to care when they go on and on about something they can't be reasoned with. By the time we feel like we've made our third full circle without progress or resolution, we'll get bored and go to lunch. Or head over to Slashdot.
Internet Freedom fighters? (Score:5, Interesting)
So cute when people get full of themselves and take on a title like that. Sometimes the depression is when that lofty self-perception is a kite that gets snagged in one of the trees of reality.
I suspect it's also that a lot of us became computer types after neglecting human ties to some degree, and once we get old enough we either come back and learn to deal with people, or we become increasingly lonely and unbalanced as we age. Sometimes both.
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Why, there's a novel idea, different point of views lead to different concerns. Who would have thunk it??? Now we just have to wait for people to get over the 'individuality indoctrination' they've undergone and realize that points of view are just different configurations your mind/bo
Re:Internet Freedom fighters? (Score:5, Insightful)
And here's your answer. People fighting what appears to be a losing battle for a cause completely unknown to most and trivialized or even demonized by many who do...it's completely understandable.
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So cute when people get full of themselves and take on a title like that.
Well, given how easy you find it easy to feel very superior to others, I'm going to guess that you don't suffer from depression.
But wait...
Sometimes the depression is when that lofty self-perception is a kite that gets snagged in one of the trees of reality.
Better watch out. Though if your self-perception is a balloon it will just happily float off into the stratosphere never to touch ground again.
Can we stretch the analogy further?
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So cute when people get full of themselves and take on a title like that. Sometimes the depression is when that lofty self-perception is a kite that gets snagged in one of the trees of reality.
I suspect it's also that a lot of us became computer types after neglecting human ties to some degree, and once we get old enough we either come back and learn to deal with people, or we become increasingly lonely and unbalanced as we age. Sometimes both.
The second sounds like it comes from life experience... but that first line is full of snideness.
Have you been beaten down so much you no longer try to go beyond your own limitations?
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Ad Hominem doesn't work that well when you don't know the person you're speaking with.
It's not just this community (Score:5, Informative)
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It's not just activist communities. Numerous studies have shown that the more creative someone is, the higher the prevalence of mental disorders such as depression.
Writers such as Zane Grey, Ernest Hemingway, Philip K. Dick and others, had a history of depression. Look at Poe while you're at it.
For whatever reason, creativity and mental disorders go hand in hand.
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Intelligence as well, not just creativity (assuming you are not considering creativity a form/product of intelligence)
Re:It's not just this community (Score:5, Interesting)
As a former art student, I used to see the same thing in the halls of art school. Students were very creative, full of self-inflated egos ready to do the next big thing. The problem was, we all had our own reality distortion field. Another problem: lots of depression going on, resulting in poor people-relationships. Now that I've been out of school for nearly a decade, the artists who "make it" aren't necessarily the most talented, but are the ones who can relate to people and gallery owners. In other words, there's a salesmanship aspect to their pitch - some people call it charisma. I don't mean that in a bad way, but they've come to understand other people's emotions and some are even married. I didn't become a big shot artist but I have an office job.
Artists get this reputation of being lovers or some crap like that, but trust me, we don't retain relationships. On a final note, I don' t consider wannabe geeks or emo/ hipster kids to be 'artists' in my above commentary, but I think they have different issues to work out.
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So now in addition to all the women are strong, all the men are good looking, and all the children are above average, all communities have above normal incidents of mental health issues?
The things you describe, there's a lot of that everywhere.
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I will second that.
I worked my way through school at at a food collective ( co-op ) on campus. Many of my coworkers were regular activists. In the years since I've also interacted with activists for issues I care about.
It is true, many of them have problems, some of which they aren't aware of and that they are using the cause as source of catharsis.
To be fair, MOST people have problems and many other people get into things because of their problems, rather than thing itself. No disrespect to anyone, b
Idea (Score:2)
Great idea! Let's have some entity set up a helpline for hackers and internet freedom fighters, complete with a call center. Since there are mandatory record-keeping laws, they can also keep track of who they are talking to, what phone number they are using, and details about the call. Nothing in there would be ripe for governmental abuse. Who cares about subpoena's and government fishing expeditions?
What love? (Score:3, Insightful)
Post anything regarding how you feel on almost anyplace on the internet, and all you'll get in return is mocking and derision.
When has "outreach" solved anything? (Score:5, Insightful)
>> It would be great to see this addressed by our community through some outreach and awareness programs.
OK, who let the social worker on Slashdot? Seriously, when has "outreach" or "awareness" ever solved anything? (Urban violence? Drug use? What?)
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Seriously, when has "outreach" or "awareness" ever solved anything?
Actually, it may be in the process of at least reducing a serious problem, namely human trafficking: Because of the 'awareness' efforts, lots of states in the US have been passing laws to stop it, and because of the 'outreach' efforts there are groups helping people escape from their post-trafficking slavery.
Your instincts are right, though: Outreach and awareness programs are often about preserving the organization who's doing the outreach and awareness, not about solving the problem.
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Re:When has "outreach" solved anything? (Score:5, Insightful)
Increasing the general level of knowledge (awareness) about mental health issues is certainly a benefit when talking about the issue of depression in a certain subgroup.
Many people I run across in tech circles have positively medieval notions about mental illness - people who are depressed are depressed because of personal weakness/defects, etc. As a result, many will not be willing to acknowledge that they, themselves, are experiencing depression, or might think that they should just toughen up and gut it out, and eventually the consequences can be quite dire.
Making it easier to get help when you need it - without judgment and without making people jump through hoops (outreach) will also help.
Imagine how much better things could be if people stopped being ashamed over shit they had no control over and were able to easily get help to make it better? Imagine how much better things could be if you didn't have people actively mocking and dismissing even the mere suggestion that things could and should be better.
You guys are also thinking in the wrong terms - social issues don't get "solved" - they get improved. Real life is messy and complex and there isn't one true solution - it's not as simple as most engineering problems. That you guys don't seem to recognize that says more about your inability to think clearly outside of your discipline than it does about the disciplines you dismiss so easily.
Re:When has "outreach" solved anything? (Score:4, Insightful)
It's solved plenty of individual problems.
So, you're saying because it can't fix the problem for everyone all at once, it's not worth doing?
Re:When has "outreach" solved anything? (Score:4, Interesting)
Seriously, when has "outreach" or "awareness" ever solved anything? (Urban violence? Drug use? What?)
There are examples. I haven't looked for any myself, but I heard about this one as I do Parkour:
According to figures from the Metropolitan Police, when sports projects were run in the borough of Westminster during the 2005 Easter holidays, youth crime dropped by 39 per cent. The following year, the most recent for which figures are available, when parkour was added to the projects, youth crime fell by 69 per cent.
Source [independent.co.uk]
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Here's an example that should be near and dear to those reading this site:
Open source.
Or, do you think that somehow, magically, open source became a thing without activists helping to increase awareness of benefits (or even existence) of OS solutions and reaching out to various organizations and individuals to get them to try it?
And here are some social issues that have been greatly improved by outreach and awareness:
When I was a child, if you were physically disabled you were pretty much fucked. Want to go
The world was never changed by an optimist (Score:2)
I believe that was Steven Wright, but whoever said it was correct
The downside of creativity (Score:2)
I wonder if we get so focused on the technology side of our world that we forget that this work (programming, architecting systens, etc) has a significant creative side and as such the problems that often plague other creative groups. The anguish and troubles of writers, painters, etc are well documented and seemingly (to me anyway) an accepted part of embracing their work. I know that in my own case letting on that I am anything less than 'normal' has been a scary proposition because of the threat of not
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And Clay's advice near the end (you did read that far, right?) is dead on. We're a group who likes to fix things. We are not trained to fix this. The best we can do is aim someone we are concerned about in the right direction.
The unfortunate fact is that there's no way to fix depression. SSRI's don't work except for the most extreme cases, and then only provide a moderate easing of symptoms. Therapy works for anxiety patients, but regularly fails to outperform placebo. Only when poor controls (e.g. wait
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The unfortunate fact is that there's no way to fix depression. SSRI's don't work except for the most extreme cases, and then only provide a moderate easing of symptoms. Therapy works for anxiety patients, but regularly fails to outperform placebo. Only when poor controls (e.g. waiting list) are used does therapy show significant results. And in my personal experience, it's obvious that therapists are nothing more than bullshit artists.
Yeah, this is the unfortunate things that a lot of people don't realize, mental healthcare 'experts' aren't usually good at what they do. All those people who think more mental healthcare is going to stop the next gun massacre I'm sure are well-meaning, but they don't understand what mental healthcare is capable of. Especially since so many of the shooters were already under mental healthcare....
There really is no hope for the hopeless.
Well that is not true either.
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The ones who are most "successful" in this life are those who say fuck it, I'll prey on the weak too and that will make me more powerful.
I would honestly rather kill myself.
Re: The downside of creativity (Score:2)
Do we stop understanding people because we focus too much on technology, or do we focus so much on technology because we don't understand people?
I'm my case, I suspect it to be the latter.
Sad, but not surprising (Score:5, Insightful)
While the evidence he discusses may be only anecdotal, the conclusion he reaches is logical.
There are certain lifestyle and behavioural patterns common among hackers which do leave us prone to depression and other mental health issues. We do tend to spend much of our time alone, engaged in solitary and sedentary pursuits of the mind which - while we may find incredibly rewarding and cool - those around us in meat-space just don't understand.
Now add in the consideration that we tend to find ourselves on the metaphorical wild frontier of the technological world we inhabit. In a place where we are carving out the basis for the new and interesting but always having to look over our shoulders in fear that some technologically inept idiot with a bunch of lawyers with come along and either crush what we have built or steal it from us.
Added to this we, due to our lifestyles, often lack the aspects of life which are typically used to de-stress and prevent depression: good diet to provide the required thinking fuel (no, caffeine and sugar aren't enough), exercise for endorphins to let us forget the shit of the world for a bit and physically present people for company so we can put things in perspective.
Finally, consider that we have both good reason to be down about things and due to our lifestyles tend to lack the things which help prevent depression... yeah, it's not a surprising conclusion.
So, what can we all do about it?
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So what your saying is we should find some false hope?
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There are some religions that, contrary to what you were told, believe that God's Grace has no limits...
"The evidence is only anecdotal" (Score:2)
AKA, there is no evidence. (There is such a thing as anecdotal evidence, but I don't see any in this case.)
The news is biased. A high profile hacker commits suicide. How many hackers didn't commit suicide that day? That doesn't get covered.
We're also biased for our group. It's like how you buy a car, and suddenly that model of car is everywhere. Those cars were there before, you just didn't notice them because they weren't your car. You noticed the story about the hacker committing suicide, but do yo
Critical thinking (Score:4, Insightful)
Critical thinking is part of the problem. If you've trained your mind to see the world as it actually is, then you're less likely to have comfortable illusions to fall back on. And because other people don't like having their illusions questioned, you don't have much of a social network to fall back on either.
And then when you look for help, you find that psychiatry is bullshit just like everything else. SSRI's don't actually work except for the most severely depressed. And therapy... well when your problem is that you see the world accurately, what exactly is therapy going to do?
Even if you could stop thinking critically, is that an ethical thing to do? Most of the world's problems are due to not enough critical thinking, so if you have that skill and don't use it, you're deliberately becoming part of the problem.
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If you view the world through such a critical lens that nothing appeals to you and you have nothing comfortable to fall back on, you need to turn the lens back on your methods and outlook.
Believe me I'm trying. I'm trying as hard as I can to get people to tell me I'm wrong, and explain to me exactly how I'm wrong. No one seems able to do that.
The pressure release is to know that you are a small part of it and that many hands make light work toward improvement.
Except when most hands are actively involved i
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All of the things that you see as wrong exist, but its YOUR choice to sit around and think about them.
But willful ignorance is the cause of, or at least the major obstacle, to fixing all of these problems. How can I ethically become part of the problem without hating myself as much as I hate the world?
Re:Critical thinking (Score:5, Interesting)
When you strip the world of comforting delusions, nihilism is all you have left. I imagine a lot of activists remain so dedicated so they can avoid having to give up the last thing that gives their life any form of meaning. They fight because the alternative is to admit that in a long term view, they are nothing.
It Starts With Examples (Score:5, Insightful)
When I first read this post I thought " yes, but what can be done?". I've been a programmer for 13 years. Socially maladjusted people are all over the industry. You can't force people to take a look at themselves and go get help.
However, there is the power of the example. Look how many IT types went from being obese to slim with John Walkers "The Hacker's Diet".
What is needed for high profile ubergeeks to publish their own accounts cleaning up their mental health and perhaps providing a geeky way, a "Hacker's Diet" for mental health and social skills ( beyond the ground covered by the PUA community ).
I'm sure there are at least a few ubergeeks who had mental health issues, social adjustment issues and who overcame them. It is time to publish.
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Jock Culture (Score:5, Insightful)
One of the things I've noticed in the 'professional developer' community is that there is a bit of Jock Culture going on.
First of all, you have a business environment that tends to favor younger, fresher talent and puts a LOT of pressure on aging developers to keep up with their younger peers, many of whom are capable of (in the very, very short run) unhealthy work practices. 80 hour work weeks and back-to-back all-nighters are doable when you're 22 years old. They're fucking painful at 30, and ruinous by 35.
And it's hard to say 'No' to them because we've just come out of a nasty recession when upper management is all too eager to lay you off in favor of younger developers eager to prove themselves.
That shit WILL give you depression, anxiety, and insomnia, and all of those kill.
Second, again with the Jock Culture, developer culture tends to be dominated by hot-headed males, many of whom are eager to replicate locker-room style pecking orders in the cube farms... and that crap just doesn't work when you're developing software.
(Ex-military guys? I'm looking at you here. I've seen you do this shit. Stop it.)
Sadly, those pecking orders are often directly related to pay. The guy who manages to wedge his way into the 'Project Lead' or 'Senior Developer' slot tends to have a few more dollars attached to them. Again, the pressure results in depression, anxiety, and insomnia which are proven killers.
Shirkey's piece spends a lot of time talking about Aaron Swartz, but Aaron was a unique case of being uniquely and unfairly persecuted by multiple 800 pound gorillas. His depression and suicide *should* have been as fucking obvious to anyone who knew him as an 18 wheeler rolling the wrong way down the freeway.
The answer to these issues is, perhaps a shade ironically, the same answer we should be looking at in regards to our sudden flareup of chronic school shooting disease:
Mental Healthcare needs to be made a priority in this nation. We need to destigmatize ADMITTING mental health issues and seeking treatment for them. Also, we need to completely ditch the notion that drugs used for treatment of mental health problems cause more harm that good.
Seriously, guys, when you're having daily panic attacks, when sleep won't come for days at a time, when the world starts showing up in black and white and more black than white... it's time to talk to a doctor. And if your doctor won't help, ditch him and find a doctor who will.
Apropos captcha: Biopsy
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I don't stay logged in and can't be assed to add an exception to my cookies whitelist for /.
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With Cookie Monster it's like 2 clicks...
So... a geek dating service? :-) (Score:2)
Hey, doesn't sound like a bad idea to me. It would probably be 90% men signed up tho!
Mental Health labels are profoundly stupid (Score:2)
It's amazing how backward DSM-IV (and -5) can be in considering human behavior. Psychology gives lip service to evolution, then ignores it in determining the grounds for "mental illness."
Let's consider kleptomania. Stealing is a behavior that is rewarded by evolution, and is a cross-species phenomena. The theft of resources is hardly an oddity in a few species like the cuckoo, but is a subset of general parasitic relationships, all of which are hard-wired into our biology. There is an endorphin rush from st
Re:Mental Health labels are profoundly stupid (Score:4, Insightful)
Kleptomania is reduced to an illness in mental health, with no particular understanding of its origins. Obviously, we as a species would not exist were it not for the many evolutionary behaviors, including this one, that allowed us to survive. In a supreme gesture of arrogance, an overstatement of an evolutionary imperative becomes a sickness. We do not understand who we are.
Alternately: What was once an evolutionary benefit is now an evolutionary impediment because the social environment itself has evolved.
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I second this. It's easy to isolate yourself as an IT guy. I went through a work-at-home period where I felt gloomy all the time. It took me a while to realize that isolation can lead to a feedback loop where you're gloomy and don't feel like being social; making your more gloomy. Working at home might be a utopia for some people, but I hated it.
"Mental health" ... (Score:2)
... is increasingly used as a catch all term for people who don't fit into the social order and won't be good little obedient workers who obey the corporate line, the lack of autonomy and the shitty pay/jobs.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acLW1vFO-2Q [youtube.com]
Practical Advice (Score:2)
If you are experiencing suicidal thoughts, consider increasing your intake of lithium [wikipedia.org], which is available over-the-counter. Statistics from Japan [bbc.co.uk] seem to indicate that it is effective. How much should you take? Unknown. Good luck.
If you are depressed, consider increasing your intake of tryptophan, along with niacin [wikipedia.org], to increase your production of serotonin. I've also heard that saffron and tea have some impact. Your diet in general should be carefully researched.
If you think that you drink too much alcohol,
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To your second point, if tryptophan is not available, 5HTP is a decent substitute. In either case, Jarrow Labs makes both of them, and their products are very pure.
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More practical advice.
If you are considering taking medical advice from /. don't.
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Furries are the greatest concentration of drama on the internet.
I can say that. See the name? I am one.
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Damn right :-(