Python Trademark At Risk In Europe 122
mvar writes "A company in the UK is trying to trademark the 'Python' term for all things computing. The Python Software Foundation is asking for help. According to the PSF, they contacted the company in order to settle the matter but 'They blew us off and responded by filing the community trademark application claiming the exclusive right to use "Python" for software, servers, and web services — everywhere in Europe.' They now seek help from the community in several ways: By sending a letter to the EU council if you happen to work on a company that uses the Python programming language, by providing EU-published material regarding the Python language (articles etc) and/or financially supporting the PSF in the upcoming legal battle."
Re:Great justice system as usual (Score:5, Insightful)
The company is *trying* to trademark it, no misdeeds by the justice system yet. Only the regular human stupidity and greed so far.
Re:Great justice system as usual (Score:5, Informative)
Just like you do in the US. It isn't hard. Someone tries to file a trademark using your established name, you send them a batch of stuff, application gets rejected.
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Beyond this, why not get companies like ActiveState to weigh in? I'm sure they don't want ActivePython [activestate.com] (MSRP $999) to suddenly be infringing.
Since I know some of the guys from ActiveState read Slashdot, I think the issue should be resolved within the day (after they sic their lawyers on the issue).
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if you happen to work on a company that uses the Python programming language
Yeah and get google involved and you wont need much more help
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if you happen to work on a company that uses the Python programming language
Yeah and get google involved and you wont need much more help
By that logic, Google should own the Gmail trademark in Germany rather than the company which had been using it years before (only in Germany), which it does not, as has been discussed here and on other web sites.
OTOH, if the Python language and its use, or the publication or sale of any books about the Python language, in whichever countries that the other company is trying to register, occurred before that company started using ITS Python product, then they have no right to trademark that name, probably n
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Python's been published since 1991 ... his hosting company bought python.co.uk in 1997.
Obligatory (Score:3, Funny)
"And now for something completely old and similar."
Just oppose the mark.. and Python was First (Score:5, Interesting)
At least in the U.S., trademarks come into existence by use in commerce. Registering a trademark is a good idea, but not even a requirement (which is why you see (TM) for non-registered trademarks and (R) for registered marks).
Assuming that the Python programming language and other related marks have been used in commerce *before* this other Python outfit showed up, then they don't have to worry about losing their rights to the name. Unless Europe allows for hijacking of marks simply through registration, I don't see what the Python guys should have to worry about (unless the other "python" company was using that mark in commerce before the real Python guys were).
Notice how confusing it is to name things above because of the conflicting "Python" mark? That's why there are trademarks, because if you have these name collisions it becomes difficult to accurately identify the source of the good or service.
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I don't see what the Python guys should have to worry about (unless the other "python" company was using that mark in commerce before the real Python guys were).
Question: How much will it cost to oppose the mark? You have to remember this is a non-profit org, this situation is still in the early stages so it may be possible to prevent this from reaching the courts. This assumes someone reasonable at the trademark office....... *thinks about what goes on in the US patent & trademark office*. Oh god they are screwed...
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What if they ignore this problem and get sued but have no money so don't pay anything and then contiune to ignore the problem?
Re:Just oppose the mark.. and Python was First (Score:5, Informative)
If you get sued and ignore the lawsuit, you will have a judgement issued against you. It won't be a fair one, either, because the other side will give their side of the story and you'll be seen as the type of person/group that ignores lawsuits. (Not looked favorably upon by judges.)
If you ignore the judgement and just continue on, you risk further injunction by the court including jail time for contempt.
Ignoring lawsuits is bad. Ignoring judgments from lawsuits is even worse.
Re:Just oppose the mark.. and Python was First (Score:5, Insightful)
Ignoring unjust laws and lawsuits based upon them is good.
NO NO NO NO. No one in the US should ever follow this advice because it will very likely destroy you and whatever cause you seek to promote.
You don't do civil disobedience by ignoring lawsuits because the judge is going to consider a lack of rebuttal on your part as an acceptance of the claims made by the plaintiff. In essence, by ignoring the lawsuit (assuming it was properly served) you are saying "Yeah, just accept whatever that guy says, and make it fact from the perspective of the law"
The concept of civil disobedience against an unjust law is that when you ignore the law, you sure as hell DO SHOW UP IN COURT and explain exactly why you did not follow that law. Appearing before a judge is the EXACT THING YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO DO because that is your first best chance to get someone to literally judge your case. The judge could very well say "Yes, that law is unjust and you are free to go." Or he might not, but the point is you must accept the penalty for your actions and work your way though the judicial system.
Ignoring a lawsuit is the worst possible legal advice I have ever seen on the internet. Perhaps the only thing you could have given which was worse advice is to ignore the lawsuit, and then threaten the judge and the judge's family... Very bad advice.
I'll say it again, never never never never ignore a lawsuit. If someone files a lawsuit against you, go get a lawyer, and be prepared to present your case to a judge.
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The judge could very well say "Yes, that law is unjust and you are free to go."
yeah... happens all the time.
You can only deal with unjust laws in this way if the legal system is decent, honest and just.
But unjust laws are, by implication, associated with unjust processes; and it is a safe bet that any Judge who is willing to hear a case based on an unjust law will not be interested in justice. In that circumstance the correct response is to say 'I will not acknowledge you.' The state will then attempt to us
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How just the legal system is has nothing to do with it! Their job is to uphold the law! If the law is really bad and the judge is a good person then he/she might try to lessen the impact by selecting a less harsh punishment but that is about the best you can hope for. It's called "Separation of Powers". It's not within the judge's responsibility or even authority to make the law. He/She is there to uphold the law. At the upper levels this may involve some interperetation where the written law is uncle
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Your history lessons obviously missed all the law-breaking events that have made America what it is today.
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If we were talking about civil rights, prohibition or some other popular cause you might have a point there. If anybody believes thay are going to make a difference in trademark law by simply disobeying a court they are only going to cause pain for themselves. If you want change in this area you need to convince the public, both that you are right AND that this is actually an issue worth fighting for. Then... if lawmakers still don't get the message maybe somebody simply disobeying the law will get some
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That's like saying good thing nobody ever wins the lottery or good thing nobody ever gets hit by lighting.
Laws are declared unconstitutional only at the Supreme Court level. The percentage of cases that even make it that high is tiny. Even if you get that far (statistics say you will not), right or wrong the judges may not interperet the constitution the same way you do.
If you are already in trouble for breaking a law which may be unconstitutional anyway, then yeah, try your best to get it taken care of i
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What? Since when do judges even have the authority to declare a law unjust? They are there to judge wether or not you broke it and/or determine the apropriate punishment. It doesn't matter if the judge agrees with the law or not he/she is there to uphold it. the judge might be able to lessen the impact of a bad law by handing out minimum sentences but that's about it. It's the legislature's job to actually make the law.
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Minor nitpick: Ignoring unjust laws and lawsuits based upon them is good. It's necessary to ignore laws to function in a police state. Ignoring (or even inviting) unjust judgments is a cornerstone of protesting unjust rule of law. Civil disobedience isn't always bad.
Um, we are discussing trademark laws (in countries that are usually viewed as democratic, for that matter), not some Godwin-Effect triggering law. Civil Disobedience should not apply, should not have even been brought up.
Also, when the GP wrote "Ignoring lawsuits is bad. Ignoring judgments from lawsuits is even worse." I am fairly certain that the GP meant that it is a bad idea, as the result will be a major fail, in any jurisdiction but the Heaven of an always-just and all-knowing deity.
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Assuming that the Python programming language and other related marks have been used in commerce *before* this other Python outfit showed up, then they don't have to worry about losing their rights to the name.
This is generally, but not alway, true. There have been instances of trademarks issued despite widespread prior use. The most egregious example was when Microsoft was given a trademark on "Windows" despite the fact that many others, including The X Window System [wikipedia.org] and W [wikipedia.org], had used it years before, and it was a common term in the industry to refer to a retangular region of a computer display as a "window".
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Just oppose the mark.. and Python was First
Actually, in the area of programming languages, Python the language was second. Before Python the language, Python was an implementation of Common Lisp. (It's still around, inside CMUCL and SBCL and their derivatives.)
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... which makes no point other than to support that of the GP.
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Reading the article, it seems that the other company did use the name 'python' before, but didn't enforce it, and now suddenly wants to make us of it ( after not caring for it for years ).
If I understand trademark law correctly ( maybe I don't ) , if you do not enforce a trademark, you forfeit your exclusive use of it.
The company didn't enforce their trademark ( they didn't contact the creators of Python back then to tell them they violated their trademark ).
They should contact EFF, I'm sure they would be m
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I take it this British firm has never heard of the LOIC.
Simple: Change name of the programming language (Score:5, Funny)
(In Europe only mind you) to NameRippedOffByTheFuckingCocksuckersAtPythonComputerServices or whatever :P
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What a bunch of snakes
Re:Trouser Snakes (Score:2)
Is their CEO named Darl?
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Is their CEO named Darl?
No, it's Derl McBrood.
Re:Simple: Change name of the programming language (Score:5, Insightful)
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Or 'Anaconda' or 'Boa Constrictor'
"Not that big of a deal."
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Easily resolved (Score:5, Insightful)
Everyone hits social media, hard - their name won't be worth toffee in the tech world. Which is ironically who they are trying to sell to.
Make it clear you wouldn't do business with them - and wait until they relent.
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They are not trying to sell to you or me. They are trying to sell to our bosses & our bosses bosses. How often do they consult with us prior to purchase? Other than MAYBE to casually ask our opinion about "Python"
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They consult with us all the time. You should find a new job.
Even Linus registered the Linux trademark long ago (Score:5, Insightful)
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madrid_system (Score:1)
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I'm guessing that they'd have to register it separately in all member states.
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Trademark registration must be done nationally... (Score:2)
Or with the still relatively few supranational bodies that do this, such as the EU. But a trademark must still be registered dozens of times all over the world, and that makes the process way messier. Of course, there are many Pythonists in the EU, and it would have had sense, but then again... It is most probably not registered in my country, or anywhere else in Latin America. Is it worth, as a previous post mentions, to pay for "an hour worth of lawyer fees" (plus the registration fee) over and over? How
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And who does it? Who "owns" Python and who would spend the actual time and money to do so? Without a corporate backer a lot of this gets overlooked or is too time consuming to handle. People working on open source projects prefer to work on the code usually.
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In other words, if they would have just paid the protection fee, they wouldn't have to have their fingers broken. Now its too late.
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That is not entirely correct:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux#Copyright.2C_trademark.2C_and_naming
"In the United States, the name Linux is a trademark registered to Linus Torvalds.[5] Initially, nobody registered it, but on 15 August 1994, William R. Della Croce, Jr. filed for the trademark Linux, and then demanded royalties from Linux distributors. In 1996, Torvalds and some affected organizations sued him to have the trademark assigned to Torvalds, and in 1997 the case was settled.[114]"
In fact, the abo
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That is not entirely correct:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux#Copyright.2C_trademark.2C_and_naming [wikipedia.org]
"In the United States, the name Linux is a trademark registered to Linus Torvalds.[5] Initially, nobody registered it, but on 15 August 1994, William R. Della Croce, Jr. filed for the trademark Linux, and then demanded royalties from Linux distributors. In 1996, Torvalds and some affected organizations sued him to have the trademark assigned to Torvalds, and in 1997 the case was settled.[114]"
In fact, the above is the first thing that came to my mind when I read the summary.
I hope that the settlement afterward included representatives from the likes of Redhat, Debian, SuSe, Slackware, and whatever other distros existed back then holding an ass kicking party with Croce as the guest of honor.
call up this company (Score:5, Insightful)
how about all of us calling this company up, several times a day, and *politely* telling them what we think? the sheer number of calls would, just from them having to answer the phone, cause them to lose money, as well as make it clear that we're not impressed.
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how about all of us calling this company up, several times a day, and *politely* telling them what we think? the sheer number of calls would, just from them having to answer the phone, cause them to lose money, as well as make it clear that we're not impressed.
just ask them if they offer django on their cheap ass virtual servers... and if they do, ask them about python version.
So who is the company ? (Score:5, Insightful)
Name & shame them!
Re:So who is the company ? (Score:5, Informative)
This hasn't been an issue since then because the python.co.uk domain has, for most of its life, just forwarded its traffic on to the parent companies, veber.co.uk and pobox.co.uk. Unfortunately, Veber has decided that they want to start using the name "Python" for their server products.
Seems like a cheap way to abuse the popularity of python to try to sell their own products. This is a company that I surely will ignore if they come in my path, don't like that kind of shenanigans.
Re:So who is the company ? (Score:4, Funny)
This company sounds absolutely reptillian in their nature. Like some massive hungry slithering bottom-dwelling reptile that strikes out at any warm-blooded thing that's good, and wraps itself around it for its own selfish enrichment, squeezing the life out of its prey. Dunno why they'd want to be named Python, it's a lovely language... and friendly... unless you don't like indenting.
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From TFA (ignore my sig this time around...):
"Specifically, it is the company that got a hold on the python.co.uk domain 13 years ago. At that time we weren't looking a lot at trademark issues, and so we didn't get that domain."
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veber.co.uk
pobox.co.uk
If you couldn't be bothered to RTFA just two fucking paragraphs in, I have serious doubts whether posting this information will get you to do anything or not. You seem too lazy to be much more than a REMF armchair quarterback.
http://www.python.co.uk/ (Score:1)
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Which as of now is redirecting to www.python.org. So does that make posting to slashdot the cheapest and quickest route to solving trademark disputes. Can we try something similar for patents?
It's protected in the UK under Common Law (Score:4, Interesting)
It's protected in the UK under Common Law: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passing_off [wikipedia.org] , and therefore in the entire EU, due to treaty: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_mark_law_of_the_European_Union [wikipedia.org]
Is this "story" to try and get money for an hour worth of lawyer time, or just publicity for Python itself, since people are starting to not care about it that much, and they want more developers?
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The 'passing off' tort doesn't apply in this situation, unfortunately. Now, if the European crowd were pushing their own Python programming language, or in some way trying to trade off PSF's brand, then yes, it would.
However, no 'passing off' is occurring in this situation - that the European company is attempting to register the name for its own use means that tort does not apply.
captcha: communal
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The 'passing off' tort doesn't apply in this situation, unfortunately. Now, if the European crowd were pushing their own Python programming language, or in some way trying to trade off PSF's brand, then yes, it would.
However, no 'passing off' is occurring in this situation - that the European company is attempting to register the name for its own use means that tort does not apply.
captcha: communal
I believe the broad scope of the application would also apply to a computer language named 'Python' by the company. This makes it appear that 'Python' the language is their own.
So basically they would be "passing off" the Open Source project as their work. According to my reading of the PDF of the law, this appears to meant it applies.
what IS the PROBLEM here? (Score:1, Insightful)
What did the company do that is wrong? They had the domain registered for years, why shouldn't they be allowed to make python servers? It's not like anyone who isn't an idiot would confuse python-server-hardware with python-programming-language.
Is there some back story somewhere that show the company acting dickish? When I saw the headline I was ready to grab my pitchfork (even though I'm a Ruby guy), but the "plea for help" doesn't justify any anger.
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> exclusive right to use "Python" for software, servers, and web services
There's at least two idiots who couldn't even read TFS, you and someone who modded you up. Really, you don't see how Python-programming-language and any Python-based project with Pythonin the name can infringe on Python-software or Python-web-services trademark?
Re:what IS the PROBLEM here? (Score:4, Insightful)
They had the domain registered for years, why shouldn't they be allowed to make python servers? It's not like anyone who isn't an idiot would confuse python-server-hardware with python-programming-language.
Google Python webserver. Then think about what you've just said....
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You can have trademarks with the same name as long as they are different areas.
Just like in 'merkinland.
Considering that they are both in the IT arena where one is software for a programming language and the other is trying to get protection for web servers, software, and other stuff, then there is a conflict and possibility of confusion here.
The correct course of events that should happen is that the group that develops the Python language should protest the trademark application and present their evidence. Then whoever oversees the issuance of trademarks should look at said evidence and tell the ones tryin
Bone-headed Decision by Veber/Pobox (Parent Comp.) (Score:5, Insightful)
So let me get this straight:
A UK-based ISP/Cloud services company offers Linux/Windows based Cloud Servers and they think it's a good idea to name the product range after a well-known programming language?
It's a nice way to "gain the trust" of potential customers - "Yeah we're the guys that screwed over the Python community (we totally stressed them out and cost them major $ too) - buy our stuff you can trust us!"
"btw, we off Linux installed on our servers too. Ironic don't you think?"
No doubt this will gain a lot of negative publicity especially on sites like slashdot.org - you know the very people that know a lot about ISP/cloudy services!!!!!
I'm getting some popcorn.
Re:Bone-headed Decision by Veber/Pobox (Parent Com (Score:4, Funny)
It's also a good way to screw over your buyers.
Yes, we promised you Python webservers, and we delivered your Python webservers as promised.
No, of course you can't program them in Python. Python is an optional extra, not a standard component of a Python webserver. What you want is our PyPy webserver a totally unique and new trademarked name for our Python webserver running a Python webserver.
No, Pypy doesn't run Pypy, just standard Python. If you want Pypy, you'll need to get PyPyPyPy, a Python webserver running the PyPy Python interpreter virtualised inside a Python session.
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maybe the thought they'll get points from ms for doing this. though fat chance since ms has it's own cloud to sell.
btw one thing they think that cloud isn't good for is "high volume data transfer scenarios.". they're selling people shit.
you know what's REALLY shitty? you have to sign up(free, sort of, they'll want your cc number) to see what os's /configurations they offer! and I'll bet you ten bucks one of them includes something with a python interpreter!
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Just like Microsoft trademarked Microsoft Windows instead of just Windows, perhaps this company should add a descriptive word before the Python name and trademark that instead. Porcelain Python perhaps?
Riding off the name of free software..... (Score:1)
....while using free software. From the footer on the front page of the pobox.co.uk [pobox.co.uk] website (operated by the company concerned, according to the article):
Joomla! is Free Software released under the GNU/GPL License.
Nice....
Not every user of free software... (Score:2)
...agrees or cares about its ideology!
Is it really a good choice? (Score:3)
I live in UK and the first association I make when encountering the word "python" is with Monty Python's Flying Circus. That would also be true of many people I know. Why would anyone want to use that as a trademark in this country when so many people will immediately think of a comedy team?
Re:Is it really a good choice? (Score:4, Informative)
The language is named after Monty Python's Flying Circus, but the trademark only applies to software.
Re:Is it really a good choice? (Score:4, Interesting)
The language was named after Monty Python. Whether that was a good idea or not (take it up with Guido van Rossum) is irrrelevant at this point.
Re:Is it really a good choice? (Score:5, Funny)
So get a new name! (Score:2)
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How about "GimPy"?
Welcome to the UK! (Score:2)
We have based our economy on financial services rent seeking for years, its about the time we got international recognition in the IP trolling sector!
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I wrote a letter as requested, but... (Score:2)
PSF started the fight (Score:1)
For the love of God, read the article!
Veber were planning on naming their servers Python, and PSF CONTACTED THEM to make them stop. Veber RESPONDED by taking out the Trademark claim t DEFEND themselves.
If PSF hadn't been so pissy about it, Veber wouldn't have had to lawyer up.
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Except Intel does own the letter 'i'
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