State Colleges May Offer Best ROI On Comp Sci Degrees 127
jfruh (300774) writes "PayScale has recently released a survey of various U.S. colleges and majors, and determined, perhaps unsurprisingly, that computer science graduates of elite colleges make the most money in post-graduate life. However, blogger Phil Johnson approached the problem in a different way, taking into account the amount students and their families need to pay in tuition, [and found] that the best return on investment in comp sci degrees often comes from top-tier public universities, which cost significantly less for in-state students but still offer great rewards in terms of salaries for grads."
Moo (Score:4, Funny)
Unfortunately, you have to be a finance major to understand the report.
But the Finance major can't possibly be a CS major, unless he went to college twice, which would means he can't plan anyway. Regardless, if he went for Finance first, then to CS, he obviously realized that CS was better. But, if he went for CS first, then for Finance, he would then realize that CS was better. This catch 22 is the best proof why Agile is the preferred method even when taking college courses.
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Though in finance the government bails you and you get to keep your job "unwinding" the bad decisions you made. The decisions which caused the problem in the first place. Who's dumber?
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Are you saying that a decision for finance is no decision at all?
Or are you saying that a decision for finance is a good hedging?
P.S. I should say writing, until the audio comes to a comment near you.
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it's simple
unless you're in one of the best high schools in the USA and one of the top people in the school in math and want to be a CS major, don't bother applying to the best CS programs unless you have scholarships and your parents have money to pay
you are better off going to your state school and taking out less loans you will have to repay
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And this differs from any other major, how?
Unless your parents have money or you get scholarships, a state school is always your best bet.
Calculation was flawed (Score:5, Interesting)
You don't have to be a finance major to understand that the calculations were flawed. They only count the amount spent on tuition. They don't count the cost of your human capital and the opportunity costs involved. Investing in yourself is not like investing in the stock market because you only have one life to invest in. So you cannot just compare the difference in tuition between a state school and Stanford because you are also giving up a portion of your young life to your educational pursuits.
Their highest 20 year net ROI/yr school was University of Virginia, but they only returned $1.3 million in total. Stanford returned $1.7 million. So even though the annual ROI was greater at the University of Virginia, you are still leaving $400k on the table by not choosing Stanford. And considering you can borrow money at 6.8% interest, it only costs you $90k more after interest to go to Stanford instead of the University of Virginia (if the loans are paid over a 20 year period).
So the only correct calculation is that going to Stanford will net you an extra $300k versus going to the University of Virginia (obviously this is not a very precise calculation though).
Re:Calculation was flawed (Score:5, Informative)
On the flip side, attending UVA in-state costs around $12k/year and you arent gambling your future on the hope that you DO recoup the costs.
Opportunity cost is thrown around as if attending Georgetown guarantees a high-paying job. Turns out all it guarantees is a massive debt and a shot on the roulette wheel.
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On the flip side, attending UVA in-state costs around $12k/year and you arent gambling your future on the hope that you DO recoup the costs.
Opportunity cost is thrown around as if attending Georgetown guarantees a high-paying job. Turns out all it guarantees is a massive debt and a shot on the roulette wheel.
That is very true. There are few cases in life where you can get greater returns without greater risks. The investment is not just attending Georgetown; it is also working hard there. The risks of being underemployed if you apply yourself at an Ivy League school in a useful major is very low. That may not be true for a Harvard English major though.
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It is surprising that the figures were so low for certain colleges in more expensive areas. They are basically saying that a Stanford grad will make an average of $117.5k per year throughout their career. And they don't say that the ROI is adjusted for inflation, so that actually means that their inflation adjusted average salary is $96.5k (assuming 3% inflation and $30k average salary for a high school graduate). That just seems insanely low.
Stanford releases salary statistics for outgoing seniors, and acc
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You know what the real flaw in the calculation was? They probably didn't account for the fact that Stanford grads don't get paid a lot necessarily because they went to Stanford, but because they were already in Silicon Valley and are therefore more likely to work there after they graduate.
In contrast, Georgia Tech produces
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You know what the real flaw in the calculation was? They probably didn't account for the fact that Stanford grads don't get paid a lot necessarily because they went to Stanford, but because they were already in Silicon Valley and are therefore more likely to work there after they graduate.
In contrast, Georgia Tech produces programmers of similar skill and talent, but since they're more likely to end up working in Atlanta they also end up getting paid less.
They don't need to account for the fact that Stanford grads have a greater chance of working in Silicon Valley. That is part of the draw of the school. And Stanford isn't just "lucky" that it is close to Silicon Valley. There is a bit of a chicken and the egg problem, but a good argument can be made that Silicon Valley owes much of its success to its proximity to Stanford (and now they clearly feed off of each other).
The quality of a school has little to do with the skills and talent it gives you. If you wa
Most undergrad educations are the same (Score:3)
A couple of intro classes, programming languages, discrete maths, use of the popular programming language d'jour, operating systems, data structures, algorithms and computability, compilers etc. Am I close to most people?
So basically the degree itself is a commodity, though not the person. So it doesn't really matter at the undergrad level if you go to Ivy or State. The foundation is the same. There may be differentiation at the graduate level, but that often depends more on your adviser and the adviser's reputation.
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I teach CS at an almost Ivy school in the Philly area. I don't see any advantage to any one decent-enough CS school over any other beyond, perhaps, the contacts that might lead to one's first job. That said, determination trumps contacts. It's just not the deal that people make it out to be. Would much rather my kids get through school without 200k in debt to pay off. The logo on your diploma doesn't really matter to anybody who matters.
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A degree from a real "Ivy" means fuck all to programmers. The only one with any relevance at all is Princeton. The CS and engineering "Ivies" are MIT and Stanford. After that there are about ten or so state schools plus CMU who lead the rankings and prestige. Most of the top 20 CS and engineering schools are state schools. Why are so many in this thread clueless about this?
But don't be absurdly egalitarian. The difference in those top schools and the rest is enormous. Most schools, public and private, that
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What are those differences? BTW, I was using "Ivy" vs "State" metaphorically.
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Maybe, most undergrad educations are the same, but a degree from Harvard says you got accepted to Harvard.
There was a follow-up study (Dale-Kruger [nber.org]) to a interesting study a while back that more-or-less concluded it's more important that you apply to Ivy school, but even if you don't get in, still go to a decent school. Krueger and Dale found that for students bright enough to win admission to a top school, later income "varied little, no matter which type of college they attended." In other words, the st
Comparing Berkeley to Berkeley? (Score:1)
Berkeley is, if the (UK) Times Higher Education Supplement Rankings [timeshighe...tion.co.uk] are to be believed, one of the top 10 universities in the world - and top three [timeshighe...tion.co.uk] in engineering and technology. I'm pretty sure that constitutes "elite" standing. But in this article, it's treated as a "top-tier public university." Is it both?
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Yes. (Go Bears!)
There's a loophole (Score:1)
Public universities may offer the best ROI on degrees, but when it comes to the ROI for drop-outs, Stanford, Harvard and MIT have the market cornered.
I agree, with very few exceptions (Score:5, Interesting)
If you're after a good solid education, state schools do offer the best ROI for undergrad studies. I went to one, and was able to (barely) pay for it myself with a small amount of student loans, summer work and a little savings. Undergraduate education, from a content perspective, is very similar everywhere. I have a chemistry degree, and almost all undergrad chemistry programs are the same -- 2 survey courses, 2 organic chem, 2 physical chem, 2 analytical chem, 4 or 5 different lab courses, 4 or 5 electives (which vary based on what the schools' professors are concentrating on.)
The main differentiating factors I've noticed with private schools are the networking opportunities in and out of school, and the "cushy" factor. Even in a high tax state like New York, the state universities are pretty Spartan as far as accommodations go. Lately, states have been spending lavish sums trying to catch up in terms of sports facilities, etc. but they're still not a Harvard or Yale. Students going the state university route need to understand that they're going to get what they pay for, and likely be ahead of their private university peers in terms of raw dollars in debt when they get out. They need to be self-motivated and mature enough to handle their own affairs -- outside of class, everything at a state university is like dealing with a state agency. You're one student of thousands, and no one but you is going to care if you fail out. As far as opportunities go, private schools do give you a leg up. There are certain jobs you can't even hope to interview for such as white-shoe consulting firms or investment banking, who almost exclusively recruit from Ivy League schools. In my experience, this only applies to your first job or two, however. I've interviewed both public and private college grads, and there's an equal distribution of qualified people in each camp.
Since tuition is going way up at both the public and private levels, students who don't already have the money saved really do need to do a cost-benefit analysis. I probably would have had a better experience at somewhere like MIT or Stanford, just because I would have been studying with more smart people. But, I didn't have the money for $100K+ tuition. Students need to stop and think whether the caché of a big name school offsets the huge expense. They need to think about things like:
If the answer to any of these is "yes" and the student has a pot of money, they should go to private school. Otherwise, they should save their money. If a student is willing to hustle a little to get their first job, their accomplishments at that job and the connections they make will carry them through the rest of their careers. They probably won't reach stratospheric heights of corporate power, but talented students graduating with in-demand degrees can still do well.
Another take on it... (Score:2, Insightful)
I didn't go to an Ivy League school so I can't verify this first hand but I would suspect that both Public and Private schools offer much the same in terms of what you learn while you are there. The big advantage, I suspect, in going to a Private school is the people you meet and the contacts you make rather than what you learn in the classroom.
Think about it - who goes to expensive private schools? Sons and daughters of alumni. Kids of successful parents. Kids of wealthy foreign families. Those are tomorro
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From my experience graduates from Stanford, Carnegie-Melon, etc. are helped, even expected, to start business and are given easy access to capital, meanwhile kids from state colleges are expected to work for the private school grads new startups. It might not always work that way, I'm sure some Stanford guys who for Apple or whatever, hoping to reach engineering VP or something, but general private school is for entrepreneurs and state school is for the people who will work for the entrepreneurs.
"Education" vs "degree" (Score:5, Insightful)
If you could do the job you want to have for the rest of your life the day you leave high school (like most software engineers who actually write code for a living - assuming some learning on the job) then your greatest ROI is to get an accredited diploma from the cheapest, fastest university you can go to.
You are filling in a checkbox, not seeking an education... don't fool yourself.
A degree is a practical expense for most people. An "education" is a luxury afforded only for the very rich. Don't go into crippling debt to get an education, you (basically everyone) can't afford that crap. You can study and learn on your own, later. You are there for a degree, and don't forget it.
An entire generation of people seem confused about this. They think an "education" is worth going into massive debt, they think an "education" will get them a job that will pay the bills... well, I should use the past tense, because nobody thinks that anymore. According to what I have read about "Millennials"
Degree as part of a structured career plan = good idea
Education as a "career will follow" plan is OVER, it was the case in 1965, but you will enjoy a lifetime full of debt and meager earnings if you use that "plan" now.
If it seems harsh and anti-education I am sorry. I am all about learning, but novelty $100,000 sheepskins, sold at 4% interest to first generation college students with no career plan - really boils my blood.
It is really disappointing that in my lifetime we have managed to shift seeking an education from an empowering experience to hopelessly and permanently hindering the lives of middle and lower class people.
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Yeah, well, blame the boomers.
They think they will get to go to retirement homes. Actually, we will poison them all and take their retirement dollars.
That is the conclusion I came to back in 1992 (Score:2)
You get out of your education... (Score:4, Interesting)
In my day... (Score:2, Interesting)
I pity today's college student burdened with obscene tuition. When I decided to go back to school (because of a non-existant social life) my choices were pretty open - I had good undergrad grades and a mind-blowing GRE. Tuition/fees at UT Austin c. 1970 was under $700 a *year* and I rented a quite decent duplex for $135 a month. Planning to spend most of my time chasing coeds, I opted for a not-so-high-pressure state school over an expensive, high-pressure, prestige school. Never regretted it - chasing
insightful (Score:1)
Bad training for programming careers (Score:4, Insightful)
One thing I've found in the work world that they don't prepare you for at all in college is the work environment. In college, you take CS or engineering classes, and you do the work on your own, frequently in the solitude of your own apartment, or at the library where it's quiet. Then, when it's time for an exam, you take it in the classroom, and talking and discussion and other noises are not allowed. This should all be changed, because it doesn't reflect the modern work environment.
First off, students should be required to do all their programming assignments and exercises together in one large room, at rows of open tables with no dividers between them. A class full of business majors or better yet marketing majors should be brought in and sat right next to them, so they can do their collaborative projects next to the CS/engr majors. The business/marketing majors can talk loudly all they want, and interrupt the CS/engr majors while they're working with various useless comments ("How's it going!"). The CS/engr majors should not be allowed to take their work anywhere else; they have to do it only in this environment.
When it's test time, the test should be held in a busy corridor. Put all the students at long tables together on the side of the corridor, so that all the foot traffic passes right next to them.
If you can't do your programming work with lots of noise and commotion and people talking to you and walking by you constantly, you have NO business being a programmer in today's corporate world where open-plan work areas are now the norm.
only immature companies do this (Score:2)
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Um, I'm sorry to break it to you, but the companies I've seen this at are not "run by 20-somethings". For instance, I'm currently contracting at a defense contractor where the cubicle walls are very low and there's no real privacy, and I have a constant stream of people walking right in front of my desk all day. This company is as old as the hills. I worked at another company with an more open layout a while ago; that company I believe was started in the early-mid 1980s. The managers (not young people,
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I don't know how representative our respective anecdotes are. UVa's BSEE program had plenty of group work. We frequently worked in groups, 4 was a common number. There was also plenty of solitary assignments; but there were definitely groups with many of the "personality issues" that you get on jobs. For example, the "guy/gal who tends to free ride" vs. the "guy/gal who ends up doing all the work" and of course the "form your own groups" problem--like picking teams for pickup games, except that it was b
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I had group assignments too at Virginia Tech in my BSEE program. I'm not complaining about group work, or dealing with personalities. I've frequently had to work with other people at work, but the key is: I don't usually sit right next to them (actually, one time I did, but we had full-height cubicle walls, which worked out really well). In better workplaces, I had a full-size cube with full-height walls, and when I needed to work with others, we'd visit each others' cubes, or go to a conference room, or
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OK, I see what you're getting at. There's real collaboration and then there's "throw everybody into a chit-chat blender". The closest I came to that at school was the 2nd floor computer lab which IIRC had quiet hours vs. regular time. If you had to work during regular time, there was a lot of conversation and anybody could bother you--but usually they didn't. One time I was there and some frat boys streaked it wearing stocking masks. Allegedly this was part of the initiation.
Streaking was rare though,
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Did you have a bunch of loud-mouth business majors blabbing all day in the computer lab? The other problem with these open work environments is they aren't just staffed by a bunch of quiet geeks, they've got everyone else thrown in there or sitting nearby. I currently sit across the corridor from some supply chain manager who leaves his office door open and talks loudly on the speakerphone.
ROI on Comp Sci? Turn in your green card! (Score:2)
ROI on Comp Sci
Hahah! Good one. Almost got me. Everyone knows the best ROI is via nepotistic foriegn degree mill and a H1B visa. April fools!
You're just going to train your H1B replacement (Score:2)
So why bother?
Misleading (Score:2)
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Combine that with lower salaries and you've got a winning combination for an employer.
You proved the point of the article with this statement alone.
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No, I didn't, I contradicted it. I don't know where these folks got their numbers (probably from the PR assholes at these universities) but in my experience, if you've got a degree from a public university like I do, it goes on the last page of your resume in very small print, lest it work against you.
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Not sure what university you went to or degree you got, but I actually have a CS degree from UNT (which is on the list) and no those numbers are pretty damn accurate (they might even be low for a 20 year ROI, running paper napkin math mine is actually a lot higher atm). Just because you have a bad anecdotal experience does not mean that is the baseline for everyone.
Yes, mine is anecdotal too, but the numbers they posted back me up and may even undersell my experience so far.
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Are you aware that UVa and Berkeley are both public universities with very low resident tuition?
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No one cares about school after your first job. It really doesn't matter.
A good school gives an advantage in getting started (better internships, heavily recruited by the big players), which can add up to a lot over the first decade of employment. But mostly this is just admissions criteria: the guy who got accepted by Stanford would likely have out-eared the average state school guy even if both had gone to the same school, or both skipped college.
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What makes you think employers base the salaries they offer on what you need or want? You'll take what they give you and you will like it, or go fuck yourself.
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What makes you think employers base the salaries they offer on what you need or want? You'll take what they give you and you will like it, or go fuck yourself.
It is sad that you not only posted this but that someone else marked it as insightful. Companies will pay you what it takes to keep you and what it takes to keep you motivated. Complaining that companies don't pay you more than you are worth is no different than companies complaining that they have to pay you at all.
Would you rather have a job was just some form of charity because your boss feels bad for you? If you answer yes to that then I am not surprised that you have had such bad luck in the job market
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Companies will pay you as little as they can possibly get away with and then 5% lower. The job market sucks, especially for new grads. They think you should consider yourself lucky that they allow you to keep working there.
Who's saying I should be paid more than I'm worth? My po
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I have a job. A good one. I've tripled my salary over the last 8 years or so. .
I guess I don't understand where your animosity comes from then. Unless you were just in some basic tech support job 8 years ago, you are probably well into the six figures in just salary compensation. Your employer clearly thinks you are worth quite a bit, and are paying you accordingly.
I can tell you that even highly-sought, highly-skilled workers like myself have to go through the HR bullshit you-should-be-grateful-we're-interviewing-you nonsense
Who cares what those idiots think? If a company misses out on you because they have some incompetent HR staff then that is their loss. The job market for competent people is always great. I haven't had a bad experience with
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A degree from a state university is basically toilet paper as compared to, say, MIT or Harvard or any other prestigious college/university.
Prestige isn't worth that much. Sure, I occasionally see job ads for people with pretty degrees - especially in status driven fields like finance. But they don't pay that much of a premium for those people.
Employers like indebted fresh graduates, because they're 1) idealistic and enthusiastic, having not had their souls crushed yet, and 2) a $1000 student loan payment makes it harder to quit when they treat you like shit and make you do the work of 3 people.
While that is plausible, do you have any evidence of such a bias?
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It's an educated assumption. If you look at it from the employer's point of view.. what are they looking for? Cheap, not good. Easily abused, not possessing self-respect. Indebted, not independent. They want interchangeable cogs that will accept horrible treatment, because it's cheaper to treat employees like shit than it is to treat them like human beings.
Re:Bullshit. (Score:4, Insightful)
There's the other side of the coin, namely, that a employee who wracks up a lot of debt is more likely to making bad workplace decisions (since they've already demonstrated an inclination for doing so) or engage in theft and embezzlement (because they have huge financial incentive to do so).
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I have certainly never come across an employer who favours or actively seeks out indebted job seekers in order to have a tighter control over their workforce.
I have only once: it was an Indian who loved H1-Bs as he could abuse them all he wanted because they'd have a hard time leaving. I did a couple months of contract work there and I could tell that it didn't take long for him to grow to dislike me as I would stand up to him all of the time.
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Prestige isn't worth that much. Sure, I occasionally see job ads for people with pretty degrees - especially in status driven fields like finance. But they don't pay that much of a premium for those people.
The prestige is a very small part of an Ivy degree's worth. The true worth comes in the connections made. Do you want all of your friends from college to be average state school graduates or Stanford graduates? I only went to a state school because I slacked off so much in my younger years, but even then my best early job opportunities came from past classmates tracking me down when they were starting companies (one startup and one consulting company). I can only imagine how much better those job opportuni
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see my comment #46630079 at the under grad level most digress are very much the same.
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Fucking hell, even joe_dragon isn't that bad.
Re:Bullshit. (Score:5, Insightful)
The MIT or Harvard, for a degree in Computer Science doesn't offer you superior education, it just looks nice on your resume. This is all fine and good to try to get a job first job. However after time less and less is dependent on where you got your degree from, just that you got a degree.
Now we have some employers who get impressed by the fancy name, but those balance out by the ones who get turned off by it. Because they often create pretentious workers who think they know it all and are not willing to learn the real way of doing things, or listen to the experience from the guy who doesn't have such a fancy degree.
In general companies do not like their employees with a lot of debt, because they are under more stress, and stress causes more irrational behavior. Sell their car, sleep in the office, or just get snappy at customers.
A degree from a State University vs a prestigious college isn't toilet paper, especially if you are interested in going to the corporate world. Your education in a State School espectially for undergrad work is probably better then the big names. Why? They get more professors who want to teach undergrads, vs the big names where you have more professors involved in their own research projects and teaching undergrads is one of those useless chores they need to do. So you have undergrads getting better teaching, and more time understanding the content, and less time just being bullied by the professor who wants the class to fail out so he can use the rest of the semester on his research.
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You assume that anyone gives a shit about the quality of education once you're trying to get a job, they care about WHERE you went, not if you got a good education or not.
Yeah, bullshit. What color is the sky on your planet?
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The transcripts is mostly to verify that you have indeed got the degree that you stated that you had, and less about nitpicking over your GPA. Sometimes they may go into detail about the classes you have taken. Did you just do the Required classes to get you Degree or did you choose to take some other classes.
Most people who have went threw college knows that there is always that professor who grades on the curve either Up or down. So the medium grade is a 2.0, and not every student takes that professor.
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In deed there doe.
Re:Bullshit. (Score:5, Insightful)
Only if they are clueless.
They are assholes and you really don't want to be working for them. Run!
Anyone with a 4.0 from anywhere deserves a phone screen at a minimum, assuming they have relevant experience. As others have noted, as you get more experience, what you have done professionally becomes far more important than where you spent your undergrad days. Where you did your grad degree(s) is given more weight, but even then, it's what you did with your time there.
You have apparently had bad experiences in corporateland. I would suggest a few years in startups maybe.
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Startups are generally known for expecting ridiculously long hours, and then shafting employees when the company hits pay dirt. I don't know why you'd recommend him to go that route.
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Startups are generally known for expecting ridiculously long hours, and then shafting employees when the company hits pay dirt. I don't know why you'd recommend him to go that route.
Yes, decent point. Long hours are common, true, and I generally have had the experience of startups turning into wind-downs, so no experience hitting pay dirt, BUT:
In a start-up you are less a cog and more integral to the success/failure of the company. The last start-up (sorry, "wind-down") I was a part of put me in the lead as the only in-house developer in the company. While the $ is maybe not as good, I found working with a smaller team to be much more gratifying than working as "corporate cog". T
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What you say about "gratifying work" doesn't just apply to start-ups, it applies to any smaller organization. Generally, the smaller, the more opportunity you have to be integral to the success/failure of the company and have a say in things and do interesting work. You don't have to go for a start-up to get this, just focus on small-to-midsize companies. Not all small companies are start-ups.
So I agree, find a decent company. However, that's MUCH easier said than done. My experience has been that smal
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Count? Get out? Out of where?
You must have me confused with someone else. I'm an orc captain who was stomped on by a walking tree. I'm spending my afterlife debating various topics on the internet.
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Count? Get out? Out of where?
You must have me confused with someone else. I'm an orc captain who was stomped on by a walking tree. I'm spending my afterlife debating various topics on the internet.
Wow, so this is what hell is then?? They make you use beta?
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Your version of hell must be far, far worse than mine. I haven't been forced to use Beta, yet. That would indeed be a truly horrible afterlife.
Re:Bullshit. (Score:5, Interesting)
Having worked with bosses, and been part of the hiring process... Those big college names mean very little. Perhaps an equivalent of 2 more years of experience.
So we got Person A with 4 years experience and a State Degree and we got a Person with 2 years experience and a Ivy League Degree, then we will have a crap shoot. Just because of the difficulty of getting in the school means that this person has a good track record of working hard. But that is about it.
However the real value of a good education isn't getting the job, but keeping and advancing in the job. If you know your stuff then you will advance, if you just an arrogant prick unless you truly mastered the art of BS and Networking (not common with people with just a CS degree) then you will probably stay at your position while others work up.
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> The MIT or Harvard, for a degree in Computer Science doesn't offer you superior education, it just looks nice on your resume.
Computer Science is severely improving in many universities, but the top-tier univeristies for Computer Science really do provide a CS education that's a step above what's available in most places.
This isn't liberal arts where it's money and alumni politics. Berkeley, MIT, Stanford, Carnagie Mellon, and Harvard have *fantastic* undergraduate education for computing and engineeri
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No, the mit/harvard/stanford degree is the ticket to get into the startup club. Without that, you are not getting money, they will just go to the guy with a copy of your idea, who went to the correct school.
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You also often get internships in your local area.
Re:Bullshit. (Score:5, Informative)
Yes, brag about that Harvard CS degree. lol. [rankingsandreviews.com]
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...and there's my alma mater sitting tied for 11th :-)
The school that, I will most emphatically add, cost me less for the duration than Harvard costs per *semester these days!
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Gee, look at all of those state colleges on there.
Its almost like he had absolutely no clue what he was talking about.
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A degree from a state university is basically toilet paper as compared to, say, MIT
Maybe? Maybe not.
After your say second job do they look at where you graduated? Not usually unless they are some sort of school snob. I have not met many of those in my job hopping.
Employers like indebted fresh graduates
So you get a head start on work life balance too?
While you may be trying to justify that you have huge debt and went to some 'big' school. The majority of those working out there did not. You are worryin
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Aaaand we're done.
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Yeah, your post is pretty much bullshit. A CS degree from Harvard isn't worth anything more than any other college. They aren't known for their science or engineering program. One from MIT is worth more due to their reputation in the field, but no more so than a couple of other top schools like UC-Berkley or UIUC which are public (or Stanford which isn't)..
Basically there's 3 tiers of degrees. The elite CS schools (about the top 5-6) earn bonus points, but more is expected from you. Then there's a midd
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Please note that online degrees, MOOC certs, University of Phoenix type schools, fall under no degree at all.
Lols. No, it's really nice for your parents to tape these to the refrigerator! For some IT jobs I imagine the un-degrees can be OK.
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Bullshit, bullshit, bullshit. A degree from a state university is basically toilet paper as compared to, say, MIT
Clearly UVa, W&M, JMU, and GMU are all garbage schools. Or Berkeley. Or Texas A&M.
Have fun with your debt, hope your spin at the job lotto is worth it.
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Congrats, you've proved that the two aren't really significantly different.
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Congrats, you've proved that the two aren't really significantly different.
Oh yeah, one statement got us into a war that cost trillions of dollars and one statement made some people lose their crappy insurance plans. Even if you think both are bad, you cannot possibly think they are not significantly different.
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Yes, but it shows they're both bald-faced liars. The insurance thing, while relatively small, wasn't the only thing Obama lied about. The whole NSA scandal is a much bigger one, and who knows what else he's lied to us about.
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The bill for the Obamacare exchanges is still rising, and may yet reach trillions - give it time. And it really wasn't just "crappy" insurance plans that people lost. I know people who have been forced into major life changes as a result of this BS (admitted, people riding the financial edge to begin with, so an extra $5k a year simply can't be done, but there are many people like that today!). Meanwhile, almost all of the newly-covered come from the broadening of Medicaid, and the ability to cover your
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Is it a scam that you have to pay for your groceries? You sure can't live without food. We all have basic needs we should expect to pay for ourselves. That's why we get jobs and work and so on.
Some of us need charity to meet our needs. Charity is great - perhaps the most praiseworthy human act. But people who need charity to cover medical costs aren't any different that people who need charity to cover the cost of food, or shelter. We don't need a special system for each.