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The Almighty Buck Programming Stats IT

Developers, IT Still Racking Up (Mostly) High Salaries 198

Posted by timothy from the money-goes-further-if-you-live-in-omaha dept.
Nerval's Lobster (2598977) writes Software development and IT remain common jobs among those in the higher brackets, although not the topmost one, according to a new study (with graph) commissioned by NPR. Among those earning between $58,000 and $72,000, IT was the sixth-most-popular job, while software developers came in tenth place. In the next bracket up (earning between $72,000 and $103,000), IT rose to third, with software development just behind in fourth place. As incomes increased another level ($103,000 to $207,000), software developers did even better, coming in second behind managers, although IT dropped off the list entirely. In the top percentile ($207,000 and above), neither software developers nor IT staff managed to place; this is a segment chiefly occupied by physicians (in first place), managers, chief executives, lawyers, and salespeople who are really good at their jobs. In other words, it seems like a good time to be in IT, provided you have a particular skillset. If those high salaries are in Silicon Valley or New York, though, they might not seem as high as half the same rate would in Omaha, or Houston, or Raleigh.
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Developers, IT Still Racking Up (Mostly) High Salaries More

Developers, IT Still Racking Up (Mostly) High Salaries

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  • Hold on a minute (Score:5, Funny)

    by ranton ( 36917 ) on Monday October 20, 2014 @11:17AM (#48187073)

    How does this fit into my worldview where H1-B Visa holders are taking all of our jobs and lowering all of our wages? I'm just lucky I am easily able to ignore evidence that I don't like, or else this article would be troubling.

    • I find more amusing that some software developers are making $104,000, and there are more of them than managers making $200,000, therefor there are more software developers in the $103,000-$203,000 range than there are managers in said range.

      • Re: (Score:3)

        by mc6809e ( 214243 )

        And if the numbers for lawyers and physicians are any indication, the highest software developers are probably making their money in medical software or regulatory compliance software.

      • Re:Hold on a minute (Score:4, Insightful)

        by asliarun ( 636603 ) on Monday October 20, 2014 @11:44AM (#48187261)

        I find more amusing that some software developers are making $104,000, and there are more of them than managers making $200,000, therefor there are more software developers in the $103,000-$203,000 range than there are managers in said range.

        Software development, like (i guess) medicine, law, finance, etc., values expertise, skills, experience, and deep analytical ability. More so than many others where analytical ability is less valued. Besides, this leadership skills, client management skills, and project management skills are also valued, but they are equally valued in other industries as well.

        That is, IMHO, we see the pattern we see. Highly skilled software developers, like highly skilled financial analysts/traders - transcend traditional salary and "perceived value" bands, and can often make far more money than even very senior counterparts in their company. However, conversely, other counterparts - i.e. software development managers with well rounded analytical and managerial skills are also very well regarded and paid accordingly.

        There really is no reason why one has to feel snarky about either of these options. One can feel snobbish about individual skills (and being a non-manager), just as one can feel snooty about being high up in the corporate chain. And both positions are boorish, IMHO. Pride about individual skills is fine, and good, but do remember, there are very highly skilled craftsmen and blue collared workers and armed forces personnel by the thousands who get paid diddly squat compared to what software and financial guys get paid. We just got lucky and are enjoying the ride in the gravy train - and all because of the completely messed up way in which the market works (and assigns relative value to skills).

        • Re:Hold on a minute (Score:4, Insightful)

          by bluefoxlucid ( 723572 ) on Monday October 20, 2014 @12:43PM (#48187601) Homepage Journal
          I was more interested in the wide and volatile range chosen. $100k is considered a big line to cross; to cross it twice is an immense step. It is as if we compared people making $20,000-$60,000 and found that more McDonalds workers are in that range than small business accountants--with McDonalds workers making $22k on average, and accountants making $58k.

          • I was more interested in the wide and volatile range chosen. $100k is considered a big line to cross; to cross it twice is an immense step. It is as if we compared people making $20,000-$60,000 and found that more McDonalds workers are in that range than small business accountants--with McDonalds workers making $22k on average, and accountants making $58k.

            Got it. Sorry, I misunderstood the point you were trying to make. And you are correct, of course.

    • Re:Hold on a minute (Score:5, Interesting)

      by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 20, 2014 @11:30AM (#48187167)

      It fits just fine, the question now becomes, "What would the wages be without them there as a controlling factor to suppress them?"

      Nice attempt to sound smart while acting like a shill though. Unless you think companies like Infosys don't exist though, then enjoy living the dream.

      • What do you want exactly? It's a job that requires just a bachelor's degree, and sometimes not even that. And you already make 3-4 times what a teacher with an advanced degree does, or a nurse.

        • Re:Hold on a minute (Score:5, Insightful)

          by cyberchondriac ( 456626 ) on Monday October 20, 2014 @12:13PM (#48187377) Journal
          1) Why do teachers always rank as an all important metric? There are good teachers and bad teachers.. even lousy teachers, there's nothing that special about their profession compared to many others. They are not beneficent deities, shaping our future via our children, though the rhetoric would have you believe that. It's just another angle for the whole, "think of the children" routine.
          2) My sister-in-law is a teacher for a high school in NJ, and makes over $80k a year. And that's for 9 months out of the year. I just don't see public school teachers who belong to the NJEA doing all that badly. Private catholic school teachers maybe, but public teachers in a union have it pretty good around here.

          • Re:Hold on a minute (Score:4, Interesting)

            by cryptizard ( 2629853 ) on Monday October 20, 2014 @12:46PM (#48187627)
            I didn't say that were that important, just that being a teacher requires an advanced degree and they are paid a lot less than programmers. And they make a good example because no one can say that their jobs are pointless or don't contribute to society like they would if I had said, "what about the MFAs/liberal arts PhDs". In fact, what I was trying to say that there is nothing special about programmers. Why do they deserve to make 3-4 times what other professions that require similar hours, and equivalent or higher education, make? And your sister might make that, but the average salary for a teacher in the US (across all levels of experience) is close to $50k.

            • And your sister might make that, but the average salary for a teacher in the US (across all levels of experience) is close to $50k.

              Going to quote a bit selectively from various spots for a second here...

              My sister-in-law is a teacher for a high school in NJ, and makes over $80k a year.

              If those high salaries are in Silicon Valley or New York, though, they might not seem as high as half the same rate would in Omaha, or Houston, or Raleigh.

              Emphasis mine.

              If the highly paid programmers are skewed towards certain high cost of living markets, then it's fairer to compare salaries against other professions in those same markets, and not nationwide averages.

              • "If the highly paid programmers are skewed towards certain high cost of living markets, then it's fairer to compare salaries against other professions in those same markets, and not nationwide averages."

                This is what everybody repeated when I lived in a more rural and lower paying market. It's not really as true as I was led to believe. It's even less true as time goes on. Things cost about the same in Home Depot, Walmart, and when buying from Amazon. Cars cost about the same, gas costs about the same, educa

                • In rural Illinois you'd pay $500/month mortgage on a reasonable 3 bedroom home in a safe middle class neighborhood, in Dallas you'd pay maybe $700, in Albuquerque you'd pay $800, in Miami you'd pay $1200. So, the biggest gap there is $700/mo. That's $8,400 a year.

                  I paid around $1300 / month to rent a 2 bedroom apartment roughly 30 miles east of Manhattan. Was a decent but not great neighborhood. And this was 10 years ago. Mortgage + taxes for a decent sized house in NYC suburbs can easily run you over $3k / month. Now your biggest gap is $2500 / month, or over $30k a year. Other expenses add up as well. I've often joked that the nice thing about being a tourist from the NYC area is you barely notice how much you're getting gouged for food at tourist traps. It

                • It's even more broad than that... if you look at housing, even renting in/near LA, San Francisco, New York, etc... it can be much more than that to live there. Just the difference in rent between where I am in Phoenix, and the area in SF I was looking at is about 25-30k/year difference in rent alone. Let alone restaurants and the like. Sure, large chains will be very similar in pricing for common goods, but the cost of food and housing are a lions share of expenses, and can vary dramatically.

                • In rural Illinois you'd pay $500/month mortgage on a reasonable 3 bedroom home in a safe middle class neighborhood, in Dallas you'd pay maybe $700, in Albuquerque you'd pay $800, in Miami you'd pay $1200. So, the biggest gap there is $700/mo. That's $8,400 a year.

                  In suburban NJ you'd pay $2000. Plus another $1000 in taxes. In Silicon Valley you can double or triple that mortgage payment. You just haven't included the highest-priced markets.

            • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

              by Anonymous Coward

              There certainly is something special about programmers - market demand. Every business in the world is becoming more and more dependent on using computers in their never-ending quest for productivity gains. Who is it who knows how to make those computers do what businesses want them to do? Programmers. Should the people who know how to provide those productivity gains be compensated with a share of said gains? Absolutely. Or did you think that businesses have some special dispensation from God that should g

              • The whole point of my post was to counter the guy that said he would be making more money if not for H1Bs. Tell that guy that there is such a thing as the free market, and he should suck it up when programmers can be hired cheaper from other countries. You are either pro market economies, and you should shut up about immigrants who will do your job for less money, or you are not, in which case why do programmers deserve more money than other jobs which provide similar societal value.
            • "I didn't say that were that important, just that being a teacher requires an advanced degree and they are paid a lot less than programmers."

              The type of degree required for the job really isn't relevant. It's true, IT generally doesn't actually require a degree. But there are plenty of people working in IT with degrees, bachelors and masters degrees abound. The people who have them aren't generally any better at the job. If anything they generally have however much time they wasted on slow university learni

              • Anyone who got an A in the course in question is qualified to teach it.

                That's the kind of attitude that leads to terrible teachers. It really is not that easy. What do you think they do for two years in graduate school? Pedagogy is not a simple subject, and just because you know the material does not, in any way, mean that you can be an effective teacher. Also, if you think passing the course, or even excelling at the course, gives you the necessary content knowledge to effectively teach it, you are terribly mistaken. To be a really good teacher you need to have mastery o

                • "Pedagogy is not a simple subject, and just because you know the material does not, in any way, mean that you can be an effective teacher"

                  The vast majority of teachers do nothing more than follow along with a textbook. Some paraphrase the material, some simply assign it as reading. Then they'll assign the questions at the end of the chapter as homework. Perhaps they'll have some handout assignments from the teacher version of the text. ANYONE can do that provided they themselves understand the material.

                  "To

                  • The fact that you are "qualified" to teach literally any course with any masters degree regardless of the relevance of your major is proof of that.

                    Just to clarify, that is only the case for elementary education. In middle school and up you have to have a degree in the subject (or at least something specific like " education") and pass the subject Praxis in order to be qualified to teach it.

            • Part of what determines pay is
              1. how difficult is it to find qualified people
              2. does the position help you make more money, or is it an expense

              Software developers help companies make more money. It is the Add in Value-Add. They are the equivalent of the machines in a machine shop. Without them, what is the point in being in business. If you are a software company you pay what you need to pay, to recruit and retain the best developers you can.

              Teachers work for a government agency. It won't turn a pro

              • Re: (Score:2)

                by Gorobei ( 127755 )

                Software developers help companies make more money. It is the Add in Value-Add. They are the equivalent of the machines in a machine shop. Without them, what is the point in being in business. If you are a software company you pay what you need to pay, to recruit and retain the best developers you can.

                Most software developers are not in pure software development companies. They are in large companies doing something like fortune-500 stuff or selling ads (Google) or moving goods (Amazon.)

                Very few companies think "let's hire more developers, they add value!" Hiring a developer is a last resort when the tech you have doesn't do what you need. It's like needing to hire a lawyer - you don't want to do it, but it's the cheapest way to achieve your goal.

          • 1) Why do teachers always rank as an all important metric? There are good teachers and bad teachers.. even lousy teachers, there's nothing that special about their profession compared to many others. They are not beneficent deities, shaping our future via our children

            Yes. Yes, they are. I would argue that there are three groups of people who make the most difference in a child's future: their parents, their friends, and their teachers. If we spent more money on assuring only good teachers are in our scho

          • Re:Hold on a minute (Score:5, Insightful)

            by wrook ( 134116 ) on Monday October 20, 2014 @03:51PM (#48189507) Homepage

            There is a big difference between teachers and programmers. I know because I've done both jobs. Teaching is the more difficult one to do well. Good programming requires rare skills and an ability to concentrate more than most people can imagine. Good teaching does not need any unusual technical skill. The material you are teaching is really quite easy compared to what programmers have to contend with. The tricky bit is turning around lives that have been destroyed by circumstance and incompetent parents. Excellent programming requires a top notch mind and a devotion to learning. Excellent teaching requires a damn near miracle of people skills and good judgement.

            Here's the kicker. If you staff your programming team with poor performers, chances are (sooner or later) your business will die because of them. The complexity that bad programmers add to a problem when they are coding eventually becomes so heavy that you just can't move forward. If you staff your school with poor performers, the students still graduate. The schools still operate. In fact, you can cut the budget of a school just about as far as you want, driving out any teacher that cares about money. The students still graduate. The school suffers in that it becomes a center for incarcerating delinquents, but the students still graduate. You just keep lowering the standards and society pays the hidden price.

            A gifted programmer can name his price. A gifted teacher? Gets lost in the shuffle. His only reward is what he makes of it.

            • Re: (Score:2)

              by ediron2 ( 246908 )

              Well put. As long as we insist that the most viable metrics are economic, things won't improve. Quality can be shaved, paychecks can be squeezed, headcounts can be reduced, pollution can be diluted, teachers can be dissed... all introduce hidden costs.

              The only great teachers I had that stuck with their crappy paychecks were second incomes into households (a working spouse), retired military (so they also had a pension), and a couple of magnificent lunatics that knew they were getting screwed but cared too

          • Why do teachers always rank as an all important metric?

            Not that I think they're all important, but they have a significantly higher level of involvement in the local state of things than you appear to be giving them credit for. There are good and bad teachers, true, but the over all significance of their job is one of the most important in any society; certainly up there with police, fire fighters, city workers... (if you don't think that these jobs are more important than programing, then you're fooling yourself)

            I agree that the old "think of the children"

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by afidel ( 530433 )

          And you already make 3-4 times what a teacher with an advanced degree does, or a nurse.

          In what world? I make less than 150% of the average for a teacher with a masters or an RN in my part of Ohio and I'm pretty highly compensated (technical manager at a larger company) with over 15 years experience in the field. If someone in IT is making 300-400% of those positions then they're either a complete rockstar at a tech firm with tons of free cash or those positions are woefully underpaid in that part of the co

          • I'm just going by the numbers in the article, that salaries in the $100-200k range are common for programmers. And the average salary for a teacher in the US is about $50k. Even with conservative numbers, it is still at least 2x the salary on average, which is very substantial.

            • The chart didn't say that those kinds of wages were common for programmers.

              It said for people in the $100-200k salary range, programmers were common.

              there is a big difference. $100k+ jobs aren't "common".

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by geekoid ( 135745 )

          Degrees have never, and will never equate to salary for any industry.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by Rinikusu ( 28164 )

      Depends on where you live, maybe. I can see wage depression here in Los Angeles. I'm loathe to go to SFO simply because of the sheer amount of douchebaggery that's up there, but then again, we have Hollywood here. Might not be much different.

      • I'm loathe to go to SFO simply because of the sheer amount of douchebaggery

        SFO != Silicon Valley

        Forget SFO. Come to Silicon Valley. One recruiter told me that Silican Valley companies have to pay more in salary since all the young hipsters are heading for SFO.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by SurfsUp ( 11523 )

      How does this fit into my worldview where H1-B Visa holders are taking all of our jobs and lowering all of our wages?

      It depends on your definition of "our". Maybe try thinking "we geeks" instead of "me and my 319 million dear friends in the glorious US of A".

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by lgw ( 121541 )

        Brilliantly put - thanks! Software development is a world community, with people joining us from every nation in the world that has a credible CS program in any university. Far from being a race to the bottom, salaries remain high, and most devs these days live someplace where the money they spend in turn does wonders for the local economy (and local tax base).

        Maybe it's just from high school in the 80s, but I'll always think of my community as "us geeks, who stand together against the jock menace".

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by jedidiah ( 1196 )

      Wages have been stagnant for awhile now. They might be an improvement on a Wal-Mart greeter but they seem to have not improved much in some places in the last 10 or so years.

      Inflation is slowly eroding the apparent advantage.

      Plus SFO and NYC are crazy expensive places to live. You just need more there.

    • I'm just lucky I am easily able to ignore evidence that I don't like, or else this article would be troubling.

      That is lucky. Apparently, you're also very good at accepting straw man arguments, or else your own post would be troubling.

    • How does this fit into my worldview where H1-B Visa holders are taking all of our jobs and lowering all of our wages? I'm just lucky I am easily able to ignore evidence that I don't like, or else this article would be troubling.

      Simple. IT has proven to be highly cyclical based on past events. Good times today don't necessarily mean good times tomorrow. The H1-B program has no guarantees that the visa workers will go home if bad times hit.

      The H1-B program is not based on any objective measurement of "shortag

    • The H1-B Visa holders are the ones who are making those high wages now.

    • wages should be even higher. thats how.

  • How many really make $140k ? (Score:3)

    by Rigel47 ( 2991727 ) on Monday October 20, 2014 @11:23AM (#48187119)
    It seems like there are a slew of jobs for people making $80 - $120k with a small sprinkling of jobs between $120 and $140k for very senior and skilled people. But how many true "developers" make more than $140k?
    • That's not really the point though. $100k+ for an undergraduate degree (if that) is no pittance. In fact, it puts you in the top 3% in the United States. Not the vaunted 1%, for sure, but certainly no reason to complain.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by geekoid ( 135745 )

      Any that contract for 70 ot more an hour.

      • That's a bad metric.. $20k of that would immediately get eaten by health insurance and other things companies usually provide.

  • Where should I apply? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 20, 2014 @11:26AM (#48187145)

    $39,000 per year as a Computer Programmer/Analyst here. If you were ever thinking of going into local government just to "get your foot in the door", DON'T. You might not have a leg to stand on.

    • Depending on where you are employed, government jobs also give you a pension that would be worth around $1 million if you had to buy it as an annuity.

      I assumed a retirement age of 55 after working for 30 years to get your full pension. I assumed your salary would not increase over time and that the annuity would track cost-of-living. I assumed half-salary upon retirement, for life, with a spousal benefit upon your death. These assumptions are very conservative and probably seriously understate the real valu

    • " If you were ever thinking of going into local government just to "get your foot in the door", DON'T. You might not have a leg to stand on."

      I agree that state/local/federal government salaries are lower compared to the private sector. But one thing I've been thinking about after almost 20 years in private employment is the enviable job security. I now have 2 little kids, and it's a very different calculus when you're talking about a young single guy vs. someone who has all these responsibilities now. In th

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by Nexzus ( 673421 )

      I work at a regional government (analogous to county) in western Canada, not a programmer, but in IT. Our programmers start off at about $68,000 per year. The municipal governments are similar (a gentleman's agreement to avoid poaching/hopping ship)

    • if you have a few years under your belt you can take your skills into consulting and triple your wage.

  • One information I'd be most interested in is "What did the those managers do before managing, by salary range."

    To answer questions like:
      - Is it "better"* to become a manager after already having a high IT salary? Or to start from the bottom as a manager who's studied essentially management.

    *: "Better" in monetary terms, of course. Obviously being a manager after having been in IT makes one a better human being; morally and intellectually superior to other kinds of manager.

  • Uneven distribution of talent? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by ErichTheRed ( 39327 ) on Monday October 20, 2014 @11:43AM (#48187255)

    I'm in systems, not in dev, but the two groups have similar payscales. Dev tends to get paid a little more, especially in positions that require a high level of skill. However, I've seen huge variations in salaries, quality of work environment and skill level of employee that contribute to some of the trends in the data. Offshoring and visa programs also do really cut into the low end of IT and development...we're having trouble finding good junior sysadmins simply because ITIL and stuff has killed any real learning that can be done on a helpdesk job in a large company.

    I would think that the fact that devs are better represented in the higher bracket is due to a couple factors:
    - If you're some "rockstar developer" working in a niche specialty doing stuff that only a few people know, you're going to be paid well. We're talking stuff like embedded systems, fields with crazy business requirements that only a few people understand, etc., not necessarily the latest buzzwords and fads.
    - If you work in investment banking as a quant, you're going to be paid very well. Your life will most likely suck because you'll be working all the time.
    - Companies who have outsourced a lot of their basic devs are going to keep their most valuable ones in house, so average pay will go up for them.
    - Also, it's not popular to mention, but there is a HUGE market for consultants to parachute in and fix the messes that outsourcers and offshore dev teams have made. Those guys get paid very well indeed.

    My advice to anyone who wants to work in IT is this -- there will ALWAYS be downward pressure on salaries. People who live within their means and save aren't going to be as badly affected by the shifts we're seeing. In systems, we're seeing this in the form of cloud computing taking away routine admin jobs or making them less lucrative. The solution for those who can make the shift is to move into a systems engineering and architecture job where you can tell the developers what's not going to work with their cloud implementation. I don't know what the answer is for development, but in both "career tracks" the bottom rungs are getting hollowed out and it's not good for long term succession planning!

    Also, don't forget that those high salaries are offset by California and New York cost of living. I live outside of NYC, and my salary would be considered amazing in, say, upstate NY or the Midwest, but it's just comfortable here.

    • My advice to anyone who wants to work in IT is this -- there will ALWAYS be downward pressure on salaries.

      I think this is good for everyone, not just IT. I had a job on the side for 3 years that was paying buko bucks. I socked every dollar into stocks and launching a side business. Now all of my profits from my side business are gravy since I invested in myself and others. And long after that job is a distant memory I'll still be making money from those paychecks.

      I see a lot of people get a really sweet job and instead of treating it like a lottery winning, they treat it like a permanent source of incom

  • I had no idea nurses were so well compensated

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by lgw ( 121541 )

      There's been a real shortage of RNs for over a decade now (there are various skill levels in nursing, but an RN is as much work as a non-specialist doctor, really). Supply and demand.

  • Bad statistics (Score:5, Informative)

    by arielCo ( 995647 ) on Monday October 20, 2014 @11:46AM (#48187271)

    Telling me the composition by career of the top earners is as useful as telling me their composition by handedness - you're telling the story backwards.

    Career-wise, it would be useful to tell us the likelihood of making each earning bracket *by career*.

    • In related news, most people earning over $1M through the development of an iOS app have the profession: software developer.

    • Career-wise, it would be useful to tell us the likelihood of making each earning bracket *by career*.

      Of course, depending on how you break it down, that might not tell you what you think it will. Like "Most likely to make millions of dollars per year" might give you top careers like:

      * Heir to grandfather's fortune
      * NFL Quarterback
      * Billionaire philanthropist
      * Lottery winner

      Sure, with those careers, you're pretty much guaranteed to be rich. But what are the chances that you'll get one of those careers? If you wanted to try to plot your career path, it'd probably be better to look at the most common

  • Confirmed.. (Score:5, Funny)

    by modi123 ( 750470 ) on Monday October 20, 2014 @11:48AM (#48187287) Homepage Journal

    If those high salaries are in Silicon Valley or New York, though, they might not seem as high as half the same rate would in Omaha, or Houston, or Raleigh.

    Confirmed - as a Nebraskan $207,000 appears high and desirable.

  • Particular Skillset? (Score:5, Funny)

    by HideyoshiJP ( 1392619 ) on Monday October 20, 2014 @11:48AM (#48187291)
    "In other words, it seems like a good time to be in IT, provided you have a particular skillset."
    Oh, I have a very particular set of skills; skills I have acquired over a very long career...
  • I earn 72,000 as a regional truck truck driver and I have SO much less stress and NO on-call. I'm home on weekends and if my girlfriend's son has a school event, I can literally ask for one of my routes to take me by the school so I just park the truck and attend. If we want to do a family dinner during the week, I can also get routed to stop by the house. I think my girlfriend and her son like me more now that they see me less ;-) Leaving IT was one of the best life's decisions I've ever made. IT turned m

    • You have interesting labour laws in the US. I am (as a software engineer) officially not allowed to work more than 10 hours a day. If I do so, the company is obliged to pay for the taxi home. It's kind of a tough rule especially if you get caught in solving a tricky problem on a regular basis :-) Work on the Weekends and official holidays is not allowed as well: I can't even get into the building without a special permission by the management. And we are basically forced to take vacations, 30 days per year.

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