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On Firing Open Source Community Members 255

An anonymous reader writes: As open source started booming, more people joined. Opinionated people. People who listened to the "we welcome everyone!" message and felt that their opinion could be their primary contribution. For some, they felt showing up at the gig gave them the right to dictate what the band played. From a leadership perspective, this was a tough spot to be in. On one hand, you want to foster an open, welcoming, and empowered community. You want that diversity of skills, but you also want value and quality. Low-quality contributors don't bring much other than noise: they are a net drain on resources because other good contributors have to take time away to support them.

In addition to this, those entitled, special-snowflakes who felt they deserved to be listened to would invariably start whining on their blogs about what they considered to be poor decisions. This caused heat in a community, heat causes sweating, sweating causes irritability, and irritability causes more angry blog posts. Critical blog posts were not the problem; un-constructive, critical blog posts were the problem. So what's the best way to foster a welcoming environment while still being able to remove the destructive elements?
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On Firing Open Source Community Members

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  • by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 10, 2015 @06:36PM (#49229601)

    Would you rather take a bullet to the head or three to the gut. Fire them as quick as possible, then show them the door.

    • by MrBigInThePants ( 624986 ) on Tuesday March 10, 2015 @08:31PM (#49230373)
      Completely agree.
      Better yet introduce trial periods and reviews so that everyone understands that membership is not guaranteed and something to be respected/valued and help reduce feelings of self entitlement.
      And as much as they are not special snowflakes this problem is not either. I mean if you let in candidates unfiltered into your workplace what exactly do you think will happen?
      Be aware that many people are not very good at rating their own abilities or contributions and generally live in a self absorbed bubble which may have a highly variable relationship to the real world. (this can include the hirers/firers.)

      Be warned that introducing any system of "hiring and firing" is VERY hard to get right (research says most people are terrible at it) and can be abused.
      Also, just because someone is a great team member, it does not automatically follow that they will make great recruitment decisions.

      Its tough.

      This is just how the human race is. Deal with it or live in a cave, those are your choices.

      PS: The cave thing was a joke...they will come find you regardless.
      • by gnupun ( 752725 )

        Better yet introduce trial periods and reviews so that everyone understands that membership is not guaranteed and something to be respected/valued and help reduce feelings of self entitlement.

        What is this, some kind of corp? These open source developers have been paid exactly squat. How dare you simply take their work for free and then kick them out once they no longer serve your purpose. What a complete ripoff!

        I would be okay with the *firing* if the developers got paid in the first place. Otherwise, you h

  • by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 10, 2015 @06:38PM (#49229607)

    You're not fooling anyone, Lennart.

    • Re:Anonymous, eh? (Score:4, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 10, 2015 @07:08PM (#49229793)

      Why do these posts always get modded down? Where are these people who actually respect the work of Poettering? This topic is very very much about people like him.
      He causes damage, does nothing of quality or value... And then... and THEN, he has the gall to openly criticize the entire freaking OSS community because they don't want him working on their projects and he's all butthurt because the project maintainers speak their mind.
      It's unrealistic to simply accept everyone who wants to help. Some cannot be worked with in a positive way.

      • Re:Anonymous, eh? (Score:5, Insightful)

        by TheRaven64 ( 641858 ) on Wednesday March 11, 2015 @04:03AM (#49231899) Journal

        Where are these people who actually respect the work of Poettering?

        As a FreeBSD developer, I have a lot of respect for the work Poettering. Every time he releases a new piece of software, we gain a load more users and developers. I can't wait for his next project.

    • by dAzED1 ( 33635 )
      gosh darn you, stealing my comment before I knew the thread existed...but yeah. Solutions looking for problems, problems looking for elimination. Redhat got me to drop out of being a member of several FUGs, even as someone who had gone to several FUDCons. Then everyone else jumped in (fark you upstart). So yeah, now I'm FreeBSD, having gone Linux in 93. I'll take non-binary logs, being able to recover from a failing startup, and actually controlling my system...thanks. Gosh, I guess I lost 2 seconds (
  • Personal Anecdote (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 10, 2015 @06:43PM (#49229635)

    I was involved in a particular Open Source project for a long time (between five and ten years). I was an early developer on the project, and at least for a while, one of the leading contributors. Over time my contributions lessened as I had to also make a living, but I was still active in the project and its community.

    The leadership got taken over by one developer who was able to work full-time on the project. This developer was overbearing and a subscriber to the idea that being nasty to people made you "as smart as Linus." This developer also ignored input on direction for the project, as it was now "his."

    I served as a gadfly, trying to correct the technical issues, and trying to create a more friendly environment for new programmers to participate. Eventually, though, I was "fired" from the project because I was a "non-contributing whiner."

    It's disappointing to see how much of my work was trashed, and how the project went from being something interesting to one of the also-rans. Still, it primarily highlighted the biggest problem of software: people suck.

  • Maybe have a slashdot-like karma system, where bad comments on the forums are modded down, and you build up good karma.

    Seems like bad people would soon ensure the community would "fire" them.

    --PM

    • Maybe have a slashdot-like karma system, where bad comments on the forums are modded down, and you build up good karma.

      Then you have to worry about the down vote brigade. /.'s solution is many eyes and meta-moderation
      Reddit's solution is to complain to the moderators. /.'s system is more open to injustice by dedicated trolls
      Reddit's system, can have better outcomes, but requires manpower and trusted individuals.
      Wikipedia's system requires politics and the ability to grind down the opposition.

      There's no easy answer.

  • by bogaboga ( 793279 ) on Tuesday March 10, 2015 @06:54PM (#49229709)

    Many would think if this term referring to folk who write code. This is OK for me. My problem though, would be how to address technically competent people who make nonsensical decisions.

    I remember politely fighting GNOME folks over design decisions they took around the `Open File` dialog box, only to be slammed with what was referred to as "Won't Fix" because it is what they called a "Deliberate Design Decision." No wonder GNOME suffered soon after.

    • by Shados ( 741919 ) on Tuesday March 10, 2015 @07:12PM (#49229821)

      What makes things difficult, is that the people who are wrong don't know they're wrong.

      So you have 2 people who think differently and thinking the other is wrong. Which one is? Who knows! Its easy in hindsight of course.

      • by stephanruby ( 542433 ) on Tuesday March 10, 2015 @07:43PM (#49230029)

        What makes things difficult, is that the people who are wrong don't know they're wrong.

        No, that's not the difficult part. That's just a given.

        The difficult part is trying to control something you have no control over.

        Once you're willing to ignore that "destructive" blogger. And once you're willing to accept that you won't be able to change that person's mind, everything will be infinitely easier for you.

      • by nazsco ( 695026 )

        > So you have 2 people who think differently and thinking the other is wrong. Which one is? Who knows! Its easy in hindsight of course.

        don't appear to be easy in hindsight either because gnome 3 still stand by all the bad choices users complained back then....

        also I'm sure there were some hundreds of people saying that 4 were wrong...

      • So you have 2 people who think differently and thinking the other is wrong.

        When two theories are available and both are compatible with the facts, then there are no other criteria to prefer one over the other except the intuition of the researcher. So one can understand why intelligent scientists, cognizant both of theories and of facts, can still be passionate adherents of opposing theories.
        - Albert Einstein

        In short, one has to provide reasons why their way is better, and many are not interested in d

    • how to address technically competent people who make nonsensical decisions.

      for people who are completely hardened and unwilling to even consider the possibility that they are wrong, there is nothing you can do besides fork the code and go on. however, people may not be hardened like you think so in the case of UI choices, a usability study could be performed. it will require significant effort but it may change some minds. the question you must then contend with is if it's easier to fork or is it worth the effort to run a study. the windows 10 preview was effectively a study o

    • I remember politely fighting GNOME folks over design decisions they took around the `Open File` dialog box

      Ah yes: GNOME because Motif is just too darn good. It's like they're on this perverse quest to prove it's possible to have a worse UI than an ancient, no longer updated and long obsolete system which was arguably not that great in the first place.

      At some point along the way, they removed the ability to filter the contents of that box with wildcards. That's lovely and so if you need to pick out a file fr

  • by StandardCell ( 589682 ) on Tuesday March 10, 2015 @06:56PM (#49229723)
    I know that many folks in the FOSS community feel more comfortable behind a keyboard than they do in front of others, but none of us live in a vacuum away from others. As such, these are golden opportunities to assert the type of leadership and expand skills necessary for personal as well as professional growth.

    More fundamentally, every project needs to have clearly defined goals as to what they want to accomplish. The schedule of such projects, by the generally voluntary nature of FOSS contribution, may slip, but the cohesion required to achieve these project milestones is only possible in the presence of relatively strong leadership. Strong leadership should also recognize the skill inventory available to the project on a per-contributor basis and encourage those with particular strengths to be used in needed areas modulo personal goals (e.g. growth in coding skills, UI/UX, etc.). Leadership also needs to set down ground rules like mutual respect and positive communication style.

    Therefore, project leaders need to manage the relationships between contributors, recognize political and personal differences, and reconcile them reasonably but quickly for the betterment of the project. If that includes terminating the relationship of one or more contributors to said project, then it needs to be done. But before all that happens, project leadership has to set the base of the building correctly before building subsequent floors, as it were.

    There's an old saying that says "the fish rots from the head down" and it applies here too: if things are getting out of hand with a project, deal with it but make sure all of the rules were set and the relevant parameters understood prior to drastic action such as terminating a relationship.
  • Keep all of the idiots that want to work for a millionare for nothing. Fire the others.

    Anyone with sense has by now joined a non-profit project.

  • First, don't resort to name-calling. "Special Snowflakes" is name calling.

    Set up a leadership structure. Stick to it. If it involves elections, include a nominating committee that decides who can run for leadership roles.

    This is how it's done in grownup circles. The failure to do it doomed Occupy Wall Street from the get-go and has allowed many other movements to be hijacked over the years.

    • OWS was an experimental event anyway. Whatever "they" decide to do in the future, it will be based on what they've learned from the OWS experience.

  • by ShieldW0lf ( 601553 ) on Tuesday March 10, 2015 @07:10PM (#49229809) Journal

    If you want a welcoming, inclusive community, you don't get to decide certain elements don't belong and remove them.

    If you want to do that, you don't really want a welcoming, inclusive community, what you want is a community of elite according to a set of standards.

    So, decide what it is you're choice will be and focus in on it, then everything will become obvious.

    • by mysidia ( 191772 )

      If you want to do that, you don't really want a welcoming, inclusive community, what you want is a community of elite according to a set of standards.

      No... you by definition want a restricted community. Which may be welcoming and inclusive, with exceptions.

      Labelling "Community of elite" may well be one of those opinion / destructive element thingies.

      Sometimes communities want a meritocracy, not an elite.

      No, you're not entitled to your opinion. Or to be more precise, you are only entitled to contra

    • Look, ISIS certainly welcomes you to our community - have no doubt about that. And of course, we certainly want to you feel fully included. But this is a caliphate, and we have certain standards. So, it really isn't asking much that you do exactly what the Caliph has ordained...

    • by CAOgdin ( 984672 )
      This is the kind of binary thinking from programmers that erodes the nascent relationships among well-meaning human beings. Your ignorant approach is neither an "Uncomfortable Truth" or a useful concept. Often the most obstreperous person can be the most productive, but they must be carefully taught in social graces. Even elementary schools have learned that "Everyone work alone!" is not a useful model; the best schools now bring along the slower (or more socially inept) students through consistent and p
  • This is the same thing that has tone deaf twits showing up for American Idol, convinced by their moms that they could be stars.

    The phony self esteem syndrome starts very early these days, and is made monumentally worse by PC-infested public schools. It's become so unfashionable to simply tell people that they're not the geniuses they think they are, and so impossible to avoid parental wrath when a kid is correctly identified as merely average (or, unthinkably, less than average), that we're now manufactu
  • Don't let them in? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Mr. Freeman ( 933986 ) on Tuesday March 10, 2015 @07:21PM (#49229881)
    Why are you blaming people who responded to your invitation for anyone to join? You can't advertise an open bar and then be surprised when a few angry alcoholics show up.
  • by Swampash ( 1131503 ) on Tuesday March 10, 2015 @07:32PM (#49229967)

    Commits count.

    Turning up to a gig doesn't give you the right to dictate what the band plays. But if you turn up to the REHEARSALS for the gig armed with recordings and knowledge of the band's previous performances and sheet music containing instructions on how to correctly play something that the band had previously been fucking up without knowing it, then there's a chance that the squiggles and dots you've written might be performed at the next gig.

    If the band chooses to not perform your squiggles and dots then just leave and perform them yourself.

  • by dpidcoe ( 2606549 ) on Tuesday March 10, 2015 @07:46PM (#49230053)

    So what's the best way to foster a welcoming environment while still being able to remove the destructive elements?

    Benevolent Dictatorship.

    Make it clear from the start to everyone on the project that while you're going to remain hands off as much as possible and let everyone do their thing, you're still the ultimate authority and you won't hesitate to step in and start cracking heads if people start causing drama and/or forget how to be adults and let their disagreements get out of hand.

  • .... looking into the mirror...

  • We can look to the Starks and the Torvalds of this world for the solution to this problem.

    http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.version-control.git/57643/focus=57918 [gmane.org]

    In the sight of the newsgroup, in the name of software stability and maintainability, I Linus Torvalds, creator and maintainer of linux, creator of git, sentence you to die. You will speak no final word.
  • by pieterh ( 196118 ) on Tuesday March 10, 2015 @08:46PM (#49230445) Homepage

    The C4.1 contribution protocol I eventually wrote for ZeroMQ solved this problem. You have to develop rules that catch bad actors (yet not learners) and then educate project managers on how to fire people when needed.

    Our rules for instance ask that you solve one problem with one patch, that you never break existing stable APIs, that you respect style guidelines, and so on. When people break these rules we give them several chances to improve their behavior. If they persist in doing it wrong, we remove them.

    Turns out, when the rules are very explicit and teach people how to make good patches, then it's very rare we have to fire people.

    The rules are at http://rfc.zeromq.org/spec:22 [zeromq.org]

  • by dave562 ( 969951 ) on Tuesday March 10, 2015 @08:47PM (#49230447) Journal

    While this might not be the most subtle way of handling things, it could be quite effective to repeat the same question every time they are critical. "What have you contributed?"

    Just ignore their arguments and ask them what they have contributed. Over and over and over again.

    They will either go away, stop posting so much, contribute, or perhaps realize that the whole point of the movement is to contribute actual code and functionality.

    On the Internet, ignore them. In real life, talk about them every time they open their mouth and complain. "Oh there goes Joe again, whining and NOT CONTRIBUTING." Then return to your regularly scheduled activities of doing things.

  • by msobkow ( 48369 ) on Tuesday March 10, 2015 @09:14PM (#49230523) Homepage Journal

    When no one wants you to work for free, it's time to recognize that you have some serious personality and skillset defects.

    I've never worked on an open source project other than my own, but I've spent many a long hour with the "negative contributors" in the business world since around '87. Unfortunately, we never could get rid of those people on the project teams because they were always managers and "key business users" (i.e. The worst employee in a customer department that they wanted to shuffle off onto someone else, such as working on another department's project instead of in their own.)

    The thing is, sometimes those complaining users are a goldmine of information who just have a tough time explaining themselves. One of the shop floor managers at my second "permanent" job with Northern Telecom was a real hard case. He'd pin you with a barrage of questions, berate you for not meeting his needs, and was just generally a real asshole to most of the people he dealt with. But if you were able to answer his questions for a couple weeks and could take care of a couple of the backlogged items on his "need" list, he became an absolute joy to work with.

    You see, the man was just jaded by decades of working with "elite" programmers who wouldn't listen to him about how the shop floor should be running. For years and years and years, the engineers and programmers had done what they thought was right for systems design instead of listening to the people who would be using it. It turns out he had tremendous insight into the way his people were actually doing their work, and how the computer systems could fit into that workflow instead of being a hindrance.

    I've also dealt with people who were just cranky deadweight, contributing nothing of value to any of the projects they were on. Alas, they couldn't be fired without going through channels. Only once did I manage to get someone who was so negative terminated by a company. They reported to me, and were so poisonous to the department that productivity improved 20% after they left -- without hiring a replacement. It turns out they spent so much time complaining in meetings and during "cube visits" that they were slowing everybody in the department down, as well as stressing everyone out with their negativity.

    So, yes, there are people who should be fired -- even if they aren't getting paid in the first place. But before you write someone off as being a belligerent know-nothing, take the time to talk to them and learn if their concerns and issues are legitimate. You could be missing out on some valuable opportunities by writing off someone with poor communication skills as being "just an asshole."

  • Just reading the question, there is no possible way that the anonymous person asking the question is unbiased. The question is full of insults. As such there's not a good answer to give because the problem may lie with the leadership.

    Once someone starts insulting the coworkers it's really hard to be objective about their opinions. We're hearing only one side of the story and that side is already dysfunctional. I sense that there is a bigger problem than just one problem volunteer.

    Maybe that's an open so

  • Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering
    • by Chrisq ( 894406 )

      Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering

      In this case the suffering is giving up and just buying a Microsoft product.

  • by Cinnamon Beige ( 1952554 ) on Wednesday March 11, 2015 @12:37AM (#49231335)

    One of the things I learned early on as a tweenager within the FOSS was that if you have a good idea and can communicate well & civilly, nobody actually seems to care terribly much if you possibly are a dog that somehow learned how to type. You don't necessarily have to be good at coding, if what you bring to the table is a good ability to understand the basics and play a living 'rubber duck'--basic sanity checks, to see if what the coders are attempting to do makes sense to somebody who, if nothing else, has at least managed to sleep in the past week. (This isn't meant to be insulting: I've been on the coding side as well: Sometimes I will grab random lusers for the job, and I've learned everybody's happier sometimes when you have a volunteer handy. Less chasing people down in hallways, cornering them in bathrooms, and...I'd certainly have answered a few times the question "Did you sleep in the last week?" with "...Does passing out count?")

    I honestly don't really trust communities that say they're 'welcoming' to be so, in my experience, though. What I want is one which gives me nice, clear, well-defined rules: I can deal with being told that I need to contribute things to the group that they value in order to gain status, and live with the baseline rule that if somebody is kicked out, it will be for violating clearly-defined objective rules ("Fails to brownnose correct people" should never be on the list!) and we will all know this. I'm even okay with it if leniency can be earned: If you somehow can bash your head on a keyboard and still generate code that works perfectly, I can put up with a lot of crazy--and I know how to ignore somebody.

    Really, I think a basic rule of "The community decides the value of your contribution, not you" isn't unwelcoming, as long as it's clearly and openly stated from the start.

    • by DamonHD ( 794830 )

      Few of us are that driven by rules to the exclusion of social mores. And attempting to run a group that way will exclude those who aren't, I suggest, which may be a useful set of people for all sorts of contingent and correlated reasons (eg people with especially good empathy and outreach and comms skills).

      Rgds

      Damon

    • by Rich0 ( 548339 )

      One of the things I learned early on as a tweenager within the FOSS was that if you have a good idea and can communicate well & civilly, nobody actually seems to care terribly much if you possibly are a dog that somehow learned how to type.

      If somebody can communicate well and civilly, then they aren't a dog that somehow learned how to type. I think the whole point of the article is that some people don't communicate well and civilly.

  • by ArcadeMan ( 2766669 ) on Wednesday March 11, 2015 @08:48AM (#49232933)

    The way I see it, it's often the programmers who are the problem. They think they're the special snowflakes and their way of seeing things is the one and only way of doing things and everybody else got it wrong.

    The best example I can think of is GIMP. Every other pixel-based editor on the planet works similarly enough that there's almost no learning curve. If you know one, you can work in the others. But GIMP? Of course not, GIMP is a special snowflake and the users are the problem.

  • There's a guy I know. Call him Charlie. Not his real name. In fact, it's more than one guy. I'm sure you know many Charlies, too.

    Charlie is a core contributor to half a dozen high profile open source projects. Not that he actually, contributes anything useful. But he hangs out on the irc channel and did just enough (which probably involved closing tickets as "will not fix") to get invited as a core team member. Based on his name, other projects invite him as a core contributor.

    I run an open source

  • by CAOgdin ( 984672 ) on Wednesday March 11, 2015 @10:31AM (#49233831)
    This thread is evidence of the problem: Many commenters here post one-sided, one-size-fits-all solutions in which they believe. But, flexibility is the hallmark of successful people. Your ability to see each contributors' strengths and weaknesses, and help them contribute from strength and evolve from their weaknesses is what successful managers and executives do. The rest are just "wannabes."
  • In Team management, a team is more productive with a devils advocate that challenges and pushes others. Linus holds the devils advocate position for Linux as he constantly challenges and even causes issues with others.

    The problem of being a Devil's Advocate is that they are seen as "Obstructionists, nay Sayers, anti-anything, slowdown members, etc" and when given a choice are the first voted out of a team. When the Devil's Advocate (or Angel member as we try and name them) are gone, the team starts to los

  • by Douglas Goodall ( 992917 ) on Wednesday March 11, 2015 @12:41PM (#49235181) Homepage
    Coming from the world of proprietary software, I was slow to accept open source. Given time though I became a fan of the GNU universe. From the start though I found Richard hard to take. In time Linux became strong enough to compete with OpenBSD and there the contest was between the egos of those two. This free enterprise-like competitive environment, both in systems and applications has resulted in a very rich choice of software available for us to use, free or otherwise. As far as the dynamics within development organizations, this is similar to the climate in early silicon valley where people with a better idea (or so they thought) would strike out on their own (we would call it forking a project). Some people lack social skills, or the balance between computing skills and social skills. Just because someone had a great idea and the computing skills to create a widely used program, doesn't mean they can exercise shared dominion over the project when it grows up. John draper is a good example of this. Surely a man with moments of genius, but in my opinion, no-one who should ever be managing others. Two factors seem important to me in the growth of open source projects. One is the emotional chemistry that bonds people together such that they are happy to donate time towards the project's goals. The other is the financial aspect, because some projects have financial needs to support healthy growth, and people with money have to relate to the project leaders if money can be expected to flow. There are people that wear suits and have technical skills, and they are very valuable to open source projects as well.

Keep up the good work! But please don't ask me to help.

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