Recruiters Use 'Digital Native' As Code For 'No Old Folks' 553
bizwriter writes: Companies are trying to get around Equal Employment Opportunity Commission restrictions on age-discriminatory language (like "recent college graduate") by saying that they want "digital natives." So far, no one has complained to the EEOC, but that could change. "Since the 1990s dotcom boom, many employers have openly sought to hire young, tech savvy talent, believing that was necessary to succeed in the new digital economy. At the same time, age discrimination complaints have spiraled upward, according to the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, with 15,785 claims filed in 1997 compared to 20,588 filed in 2014.
Out of the 121 charges filed last year by the EEOC for alleged discriminatory advertising, 111 of them claimed the job postings discriminated against older applicants. The EEOC has said that using phrases like 'college student,' 'recent college graduate,' or 'young blood' violate the Age Discrimination in Employment Act of 1966. That federal law protects individuals who are 40 years of age or older from employment discrimination based on age."
Out of the 121 charges filed last year by the EEOC for alleged discriminatory advertising, 111 of them claimed the job postings discriminated against older applicants. The EEOC has said that using phrases like 'college student,' 'recent college graduate,' or 'young blood' violate the Age Discrimination in Employment Act of 1966. That federal law protects individuals who are 40 years of age or older from employment discrimination based on age."
The 30 and 40-somethings wrote the code... (Score:5, Informative)
What I find ironic is that the people who wrote the basic items that are taken for granted, be it the Linux kernel, apache, the HTTP protocol, the IP protocol, Mosaic and its derivatives... are all people likely over 40+.
Demanding someone be a "digital native" means you will get someone who knows how to flip through cat pictures, re-list their stuff on WoW's Armory, talk about how bad their work environment is on Yik Yak while trying to hand out their kik ID for a score. You won't get someone who actually knows the foundation that those apps are built on.
Re:The 30 and 40-somethings wrote the code... (Score:5, Interesting)
I was born in the 70s and consider myself a "digital native". All computers I have used have been binary based, for example. All in fact based on transistors. I showed my son a picture of me at his age sitting in front of a TRS-80 and my much beloved Commodore 64 and you know what he said? He said "Wow Dad, you had computers!". Indeed, not only did I have them, but he recognized them as such.
I guess my point is that I'm not sure the term "digital native" has any actual meaning, or at least such meaning will have to be proven in court. Was I turned down because I wasn't "digital native" enough? Or was I turned down because I was too old?
Re:The 30 and 40-somethings wrote the code... (Score:5, Interesting)
I was born in the 50's, bought a TRS-80 in '78 or so and have been programming ever since. Mostly device drivers, BSPs, etc.
I know more about computers than most digital natives, yet it's hard for me to get a job because I'm old, don't use FB, don't twit, don't insta, don't have a phone full of selfies, etc.
Re:The 30 and 40-somethings wrote the code... (Score:4, Interesting)
"Digital Native" means you're obsessed with Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Opentable, selfies, etc.
Weird, I'm a 90's kid and:
I haven't touched my Facebook account in years
My Twitter is mostly subscriptions, generally to things that are actually interesting (eg. @RealTimeWWII not @kanye)
I have no Instagram
I've never actually heard of Opentable
I've taken one selfie in my life, and it was a joke at my sister's wedding
I also used MS-DOS (via Windows 95, sure, but it still counts), think Perl is a more useful language than Ruby or any other fad-language-of-the-week, and I can read assembler if given enough time and a table of opcodes.
Do I still qualify as a Digital Native?
Re: (Score:3)
Inherently, all humans are analog.... But we invented digital. The only true Digital Native would be an AI. Most of them are complete morons and can barely hold a conversation while staying on topic for more than 180 seconds. Even the best AI that I can think of is IBM's Watson, and so far, all he can do is answer trivia questions on Jeopardy.
Re:The 30 and 40-somethings wrote the code... (Score:4, Insightful)
So you are in your 30s now? Then you are too old. They want graduates who will work 50+ hour weeks for low pay. Around age 28 a little red light starts flashing on their hands and they are replaced before they start wanting s career or work-life balance.
Actually you are kinda showing your age in your post. The kids abandoned facebook, there are too many old people on there. To be honest I've lost track myself... Do they still use Snapchat?
Re:The 30 and 40-somethings wrote the code... (Score:4, Interesting)
Ugh. I remember my pre-computer days when I had to write reports. Horrible handwriting (my mother joked that I was destined to be a doctor based solely on my handwriting) + lefty (pen smears on your hand as you write) + having to rewrite entire pages because you JUST figured out a better way of phrasing something = I hated writing assignments and writing in general. Despised them.
Then, I got to use a computer for the first time.
Suddenly, my "writing" was recognizable, I had no pen smears on my hands, and most importantly, it was easy to copy/paste entire sections of my writing. Even in those early, keyboard-only, hunt-and-peck-bad-typist days, I could churn out a better essay quicker than I could if I handwrote it. From that point on, I found out that I LOVED writing.
Re:The 30 and 40-somethings wrote the code... (Score:5, Interesting)
I know more about computers than most digital natives, yet it's hard for me to get a job because I'm old, don't use FB, don't twit, don't insta, don't have a phone full of selfies, etc.
I understand your background, but honestly don't think you are qualified based solely on that. Application programming is a whole other world, with different tools, different practices and different objectives. I do not think I'd be qualified to apply to such a job right this instant.
I certainly could learn, easily. I know how their stuff works, I was there before it all came around. But before I applied to the position I'd have to learn it all, and walk in ready to talk about it, and find a way to get some of the relevant technology on my resume. I don't think these guys will necessarily know what a BSP is, I wonder if they have considered hardware that is not a PC or mobile phone? I suspect they have not ever brought an OS up on custom hardware, nor do they plan it it. I think I'd read your resume and think you're well qualified to work at a hardware company, but I'm not sure I'd want you in a google or a facebook.
Now it's an entry level job, no experience necessary, but you come in proving you what an AJAX is, and you can JQuery if you must but would rather (whatever the latest hotness is). You understand how to use Facebook and what API exists, and know what Twitter is useful for. You know their acronyms and their tools, If they turned you down then I'd cry discrimination, a true college fresh out with no industry experience really would be less qualified than you in that event, especially if you'll work for his wages.
Re: (Score:3)
Twitter does something useful?
Re: (Score:3)
> "Digital Native" means you're obsessed with Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Opentable, selfies, etc.
Nice summary!
FTFY, Digital Native, noun: A person who cares more about consuming content and other stupid vanity shit then actually learning how to _write_ apps in the first place.
> yet it's hard for me to get a job because I'm old, don't use FB, don't twit, don't insta, don't have a phone full of selfies, etc.
That's sad that companies value people who are more focused on _looking_ good, then actually _
Re:The 30 and 40-somethings wrote the code... (Score:4, Funny)
Yeah, motherfucker, I had the 80 column text card in my Apple IIe and a 1200 baud modem. I was dying of cholera and retrieving lost oxen before these kids were born.
Re: (Score:3)
Papyrus actually, we invented it shortly after the first novel was written, as we couldn't come up with an easy way of copying and transporting a 3,000 'page' clay tablet. (although it was better than the stone we used before, and more permanent than smoke signals...)
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:3)
He said "Wow Dad, you had computers!".
Well duh! How else would were you going to let them know you wanted extra stegosaurus meat on your pizza delivery, or email your friends when you wanted to get together to play stickball? Seriously, kids nowadays.
Re:The 30 and 40-somethings wrote the code... (Score:5, Insightful)
"Digital Native" is great if you want someone that can do the job when at least some functionality remains, but if things are really broken and one can't reach the Internet, I don't see the Googlers of the world being able to prop the technology back up when it fails.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Agreed--sounds to me as if "digital native" means someone that expects technology to "just work". We grew up surprised when things "just worked"--expecting to have to tinker (and indeed *enjoying* getting to tinker) to make machines do our bidding.
Re:The 30 and 40-somethings wrote the code... (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm not expecting this exact piece of knowledge to be known by everyone, but given that the OS (DOS at the time) was really of no help to actually figuring out what the problem was, understanding how the technology works top-to-bottom is essential in being versatile in all situations. This particular problem was so abstract that not only was no dialogue box to use to figure it out, but there were no logs and only a few vague error messages. Even categorizing the nature of the error required learning how the processor worked, much lower level than most people are willing to go.
Re: (Score:3)
When I was a kid, the job I wanted when I grew up was to be the TV repairman. Everyone knew things did not "just work", so there were repair people. And they were NOT the same as the Apple "geniuses" or the Best Buy people trying to sell you stuff.
Re:The 30 and 40-somethings wrote the code... (Score:5, Funny)
Surely, I must qualify as digital native in spite of being born in '66. I learned Fortran V ('77 wasn't out yet) on the school system's mainframe over a 300 baud modem. When I finally got a computer and modem of my own, I had to write a simple terminal program with Xmodem so I could download a real terminal program from a BBS.
My wife informs me that she is 1/Commodore 64th digital on her father's side.
Re: The 30 and 40-somethings wrote the code... (Score:3)
Who remembers figuring out Procomm Plus for the first time? Usenet? Trumpet Winsock?
Re: (Score:3)
We're probably going to upgrade our phones in the next couple of months. Our carrier has acquired more spectrum that will give us better connectivity so we can get calls deeper
Up-to-date education (Score:3)
If employers lose lawsuits over this, they'll probably change it to "up-to-date education" and "3 years of active use of a major social network, iOS or Android operating system, and electronic bill payment". This allows older people to technically qualify by having taken a relevant class at a local college and joining Facebook.
Nothign new here (Score:5, Insightful)
Comcast online application has the question "Are you older than 49 or younger".
When I went back to school to finish up, I applied for several low level IT jobs and was asked "aren't you a little old for this job?".
Watch the look on the temp service persons face when they meet you the first time,ageism is fairly rampant I would say.
Re:Nothign new here (Score:4, Insightful)
"Are you older than 49 or younger".
There really is no wrong answer here...
Re: (Score:2)
"Are you older than 49 or younger".
There really is no wrong answer here...
Unless the question is multiple choice, the form offers no "yes" option [orain.org], and the "older" option is believed to send your application to the circular file.
Re: (Score:3)
I want to answer "No" there and see if they have a bias for or against applicants who are exactly 49 years old.
Re:Nothign new here (Score:5, Funny)
"Are you older than 49 or younger".
There really is no wrong answer here...
It's blatant discrimination against those who are exactly 49.
Re: (Score:3)
Comcast online application has the question "Are you older than 49 or younger".
The 100% correct answer regardless of age is "YES".
Please choose an option from the list. (Score:2)
The 100% correct answer regardless of age is "YES".
The form's answer to your answer is "Please choose an option from the list. ( ) Older ( ) Younger or same"
Re: (Score:3)
Unless you happen to be 49 years old...
Re:Nothign new here (Score:5, Funny)
Unless you happen to be 49 years old...
At which point you wait for a second, then answer "older". Besides, don't you have anything better to do on your birthday?
Re: (Score:3)
No, the correct answer is to walk out of the interview and call a lawyer.
You mean "app appers"! (Score:5, Funny)
Apps!
Re: (Score:2)
I think "app appers" applies more appropriately to Apple appreciators.
Tech Savvy (Score:5, Insightful)
Fad Savvy more likely. Most of the "Tech Savvy" people I know are Google experts, meaning they know how to Google for an answer, and they think that makes them an expert. Take away their computer, and they can't have a Tech conversation with anyone.
They have no idea what it takes to get them their "Google". They aren't tech savvy, they are digital savvy illiterates.
Re:Tech Savvy (Score:5, Interesting)
Disclaimer: I'm nearing 40.
I don't think you're right. Using Google taught me a lot of things I otherwise wouldn't have known. Gone are the days when you could master an IT area without looking up documentation on a daily basis. Before, you had brick-width books which weighted up to 10+ pounds. Now, you have Google AND some books. There is no "better" between the two. I use both.
Self-taught is self-taught, be it through books or online lookup. Memory could only take you so far, and many strains of formal education throughout the world are still following the classic way (learn it by heart or else!) which, let's be honest, is becoming obsolete. But I digress.
Companies are looking to hire young people because:
- they take most shit and are happy eating it. I was there, I've done that.
- they likely don't have a family (so they're more likely to use their free time working)
- they're eager to please (I call it "dog loyalty"). It's not an offensive term, it's just younger people are yet to be screwed over and so they're fully loyal even to a vicious master.
- they're cheaper because employers play on their "lack of experience".
And many other reasons which I'm too lazy to enumerate, most of them being unrelated to technical skills.
We need to learn hipster BS [Re:Tech Savvy] (Score:5, Interesting)
Their bullshit may be more modern. Perhaps us ol' fogies should attend "Bullshit like a young buck" courses.
When you are interviewing with a PHB, talking the talk matters. Let's face it, the work world is largely a bullshitting game, for good or bad. It would be nice if it were about logic and planning, but humans got into the mix and mucked up that ideal.
I remember during one interview the PHB asked me if I liked to download stuff to my PC to experiment with new gizmos. I replied that I did, but that I prefer to have one "production" PC to get regular work done and a separate "experimental" PC that can be rebaselined if the experiments mess it up and/or to not cross-mix experiments. (Active-X was the "big thing" at the time, which should be enough to explain my caution.)
Anybody with experience will agree this is the rational way to do it. However, this was a start-up and they had no money for double PC's. (Maybe I should have offered to buy my own spare.) My "kind" wasn't welcome. The details of reality bothered them: they wanted to be sold cheap pie in the sky. That is, naive pioneers who don't know about the arrows yet.
That's not me. I value my experience and all the caveats I've learned over the years. I don't intend to sound grumpy or a like parade-rainer, but rather I'm just giving potential risks and estimated probabilities in a direct factual way. If you want to plow thru the asteroid field without being told the odds, then hang out with Jedi's fresh off the dust-farm and contraband runners. And off my swamp, get!
Re: (Score:3)
I know plenty of people who know how to Google something, spew it forth as if it is some universal truth, only to be 100% wrong, because they don't know anything about anything. These are the people who know how to Google, but don't know enough to be able to tell the good vs the bad.
There are three kinds of people
1) People who don't know Google or how to use it
2) People who think they know something because they Googled it
3) People who actually know something, and use Google to enhance their information.
#3
Comment removed (Score:5, Funny)
Re:We old ones have a word for digital natives. (Score:5, Informative)
We also have a word for those who use the phase "digital native" without irony: wankers.
Re: (Score:2)
Well, yeah, because it's largely a marketing term latched onto by the press.
It's not used by people in the tech industry.
EEO bullshit (Score:5, Insightful)
Let's say I don't want to hire you because you're old. EEO laws simply mean that I can't say it in your face that you're old. Instead, i send you the standard HR rejection e-mail and we're all good.
Sight, I hate seeing my tax $$ going to waste drafting these stupid laws.
Follow up a rejection letter (Score:2)
Would it be a bad idea to follow up a rejection letter with "Is there anything I could do to improve my skills to make myself a better fit for your company?"
Re: (Score:2, Informative)
Re:EEO bullshit (Score:4, Insightful)
2015:
This is one of the biggest bullshit laws I've ever seen. Let's say I don't want to hire you because you're old. EEO laws simply mean that I can't say it in your face that you're old. Instead, i send you the standard HR rejection e-mail and we're all good. Sight, I hate seeing my tax $$ going to waste drafting these stupid laws.
1965:
This is one of the biggest bullshit laws I've ever seen. Let's say I don't want to hire you because you're [black]. EEO laws simply mean that I can't say it in your face that you're [black]. Instead, i send you the standard HR rejection e-mail and we're all good. Sight, I hate seeing my tax $$ going to waste drafting these stupid laws.
You're right, certain bits hasn't changed much...
Re: (Score:3)
The "anti-discrimination" laws are also immoral — they seek to punish thought-crimes and force employers into hiring those, whom they do not wish to hire, for whatever reason.
Sorry, son, but society (and the Supreme Court) voted and you're wrong.
Re: (Score:3)
Your response is an example of Appeal to Authority
Actually, the one you're trying to reach for is Appeal to Popularity (Argumentum ad Populum) not Appeal to Authority.
However, you started by talking about "immorality", so you've already fallen victim to dogmatism (by Excluding the Middle). While likening the "Pi equals 3" law or creationism to anti-discrimination laws is an Argument by False Analogy, since Pi=3 and creationism are factually wrong, not morally, and are therefore unrelated to the argument you are trying to make.
Re: (Score:3)
I cut my teeth on the ARPANET. (Score:5, Insightful)
How much more "native" could I be?
Re: (Score:2)
Re:I cut my teeth on the ARPANET. (Score:5, Funny)
The bell bottoms and sideburns are a dead giveaway.
Re: (Score:3)
You just gave me an awesome business idea. I'm going to open up a shop in Williamsburg selling stuff like bulk coax and ethernet taps so the kids can cable their apartments retro-style.
Re: (Score:2)
Re:I cut my teeth on the ARPANET. (Score:4, Funny)
How much more "native" could I be?
Anyone who has never sent an email using bang path routing, is a "digital immigrant". Now get off my lawn...
Pay, not talent (Score:5, Insightful)
Companies want recent college grads because they know they're willing to work for less, not because they believe them to be more talented. Do you want to pay a landscaper $100 to mow your lawn, or the kid across the street $20? Same concept. If it's important, you'll pay the experienced professional, but a lot of development work is doable by amateurs. It might not look as good, but it's good enough.
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
Bull.
Companies do not have problems with people unwilling to work for their salary because of AGE. They have problems with people unwilling to work for their salaries because other people are paying more for the same work.
Lots of older people are willing to work for the same salary as younger people.
What's going on is instead a desire to have a young person:
1) Not ask for things like overtime that they are legally entitled to.
2) Not get sick
3) Stay there forever.
Older people are less likely to do those th
Re:Pay, not talent (Score:5, Insightful)
Companies want recent college grads because they know they're willing to work for less, not because they believe them to be more talented.
I think it's more than just accepting lower salary, but also accepting more abuse. A 23-year-old is less likely to have other major commitments (in particular, a family). It's a lot more difficult to force someone to work 60+ hours per week when they have to be home to help take care of the kids.
Re:Pay, not talent (Score:5, Insightful)
Right here is the solid fact.
it's not about skill, It's about how cheap can we get the whores for, and how hard can we abuse them.
20 somethings tend to be too stupid to stand up for themselves and accept a 60 hour workweek as normal. They also buy the bullshit of "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger" and keep accepting more and more workload.
I'm an old guy... (Score:4, Insightful)
That being said, let companies hire who they want. I don't really understand the forced-melting-pot concept of hiring. If a company wants young people, who am I to force them to take me?
Prevent long-term unemployment (Score:3)
I don't really understand the forced-melting-pot concept of hiring. If a company wants young people, who am I to force them to take me?
Anti-discrimination laws keep older people from becoming long-term unemployed before they are old enough to qualify for social security. Long-term unemployment is associated with increased costs to the government to control crime.
Pull the other one (Score:5, Insightful)
HR drones everywhere are rolling on the carpet laughing. Ever tried to get HR to pass your resume along if they spot any clue that you are 50+?
Experience should cause differentiation (Score:5, Insightful)
"That federal law protects individuals who are 40 years of age or older from employment discrimination based on age." HR drones everywhere are rolling on the carpet laughing. Ever tried to get HR to pass your resume along if they spot any clue that you are 50+?
As we get older, That we should accrue several skills that are hard to commoditize (sp?), such as:
All of that crap translates to the following: By the time we hit 40's we shouldn't not be directly competing for the same type of jobs with right-out-of-school kids. Or in more general terms, we should allow ourselves to fall into a situation of having to compete with people 15-20 years our junior.
If we are, then we didn't pay attention to our career development. I saw this in earnest because I spent (wasted) a good chunk of my mid-career years being happy as a "code warrior", disdainfully avoiding any opportunities to take greater responsibilities or broadening my professional and technical horizons. I wasn't being lazy as I would happily clock 60/70 hours "just coding". I was just being ignorant (and ignorance is bliss, right?)
It wasn't until I had people depending on me that I realize how stupid and dangerous that is. We do not get any younger, and we must have something to show from all those years of experience (show something other than coding abilities.)
I oppose age discrimination on principle (and any kind of discrimination unrelated to reasonable work requirements - working more for less is not a reasonable working requirement.)
But I see too many people resting on their laurels expecting to retire doing the same shit they have been doing for the last 20-30 years. That *dream* started to get shattered when the Japanese started beating the crap of American manufacturing 30-40 years ago.
Some people really hadn't gotten the memo yet.
"culturally incompatible" (Score:5, Insightful)
I've been called "culturally incompatible", which I know means "too old."
Yes, posting as AC, because my lawyers told me to.
It's been said before, the over-30s with a family don't care about the in-office perks, they just want to go home and spend time with their kids.
These companies are missing the flip side of the coin, that the over-50s are highly motivated (saving for retirement!,) often highly skilled, and generally have done that before, several times. Though they do command the big salaries.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
And we get the job done where those young whippersnappers just give up and throw their toys out of the pram.
My current boss has been trying to hire my replacement (so I can retire) for almost two years.
So far no takers. There are people who are competent in a couple of the technologies we use but ask them something in the interview that is outside their core? They really have no clue and a good few don't seem to want to learn.
I blame the Universities. They just don't seem to teach hoe to view a system from
Re: (Score:3)
The hypocrisy... (Score:5, Insightful)
"That federal law protects individuals who are 40 years of age or older from employment discrimination based on age."
I don't think I ever realized how ironic that was before now. A threshold requirement for an age discrimination claim is that you not be certain ages...
Re: (Score:3)
Not hypocrisy. The law also protects against youth discrimination, but because that is so much rarer, the law goes into much greater detail on what constitutes discrimination against elders. Basically, the law bans all age discrimination in employment -- judge on merit and ability, not on age -- but spells out in detail all the questions you cannot ask during an interview in an effort to try to ferret out someone's age.
Native? (Score:2)
Native? As in the ones who were here first or showed up later? The older folks who actually created the systems and infrastructure everyone uses and now takes for granted, or the youngsters who just use those systems and infrastructure, but have little/no idea how anything actually works? I'm not sure who to thank most, the people who created Ethernet or Angry Birds.
Can't wait to see what the next 40 years brings (Score:5, Interesting)
I am just about to hit that milestone 40th birthday this year. If things are as bad as they seem, I'm probably in for a rough couple of decades.
One thing that does bother me is that "digital natives" are no more or less capable of doing a good job in a technology job than older people. The skills are the same -- creative problem solving, troubleshooting, logical thinking and awesome communications skills. Older people do have different qualities in my opinion:
- We've been around the block and seen technology fads appear, disappear and come back later on with better underpinnings. We've also seen how stuff like virtualization and application containers aren't actually new concepts...just way better now than they were.
- Many/most of us have obligations outside of work and greater responsibilities. A 40 year old with two little kids [raises hand] has a little less flexibility than a recent grad who will move anywhere in the country in a week, doesn't mind sharing a 2-bedroom apartment with roommates and will willingly work 14-hour days for no extra pay.
- Many/most of us have also figured out the game of working for a company, and prefer a healthier work/life balance to throwing all your energy into projects that can sometimes get trashed for no reason.
- One advantage we do have is growing up with computers in a much more primitive state, where more about the actual machine was exposed to you. "Digital natives" grow up with packaged platforms and a lot of the underpinnings are permanently abstracted away unless you are sufficiently motivated to dig further.
For these reasons, among others, companies prefer younger workers because they're easier to control. I'm not saying that all of us oldsters are perfect -- I've worked with a lot of burnt out folks who do the bare minimum to keep their job. But, in my opinion it's not fair to paint everyone with the same brush. I won't kill myself for deadlines the way a 22-year-old working for EA might, but I have cranked out consistent good work over my career, and really want to continue doing so until I don't feel I can contribute anymore.
My Grandpa would count (he's been dead since 2002) (Score:5, Insightful)
My Grandpa would count. He's been dead since 2002 and he was in his 90ies. Given, he worked with Grumman Aircraft on the Lunar Lander back in the 60ies as an electronics engineer (hearing the proud grandson? ;-) ). Basically high-end avantgrade technology back then, but he was a digital native none-the-less.
So is just about any computer kid of the eighties approaching 50 years of age today. We grew along in lock-step with the hardware, its capabilites and our capabilites to understand it. I'd argue that nobody will be more digitally native than our generation of nerds.
I'd also argue that I am way more a digital native than my daughter, since I not only can operate a computer or smartphone, but actually know how it works.
In short, I can't see how this is supposed to be an age-filter. Perhaps a fiter for non-tech-savy, ok. The age-filters I've come across are more like "willing to travel" (go forth and act as a fall-guy for that remote project heading towards a solid brick wall), "resilient" (german: "belastbar") ... meaning "young and stupid enough to work extra hours under shitty gouvernance for no extra pay and a fake career outlook" ... and similar telling lines in the confidentials.
On top of that, how hilarious is an HR person asking for "digital natives"? We all know the bizar truth behind this.
Most of those people couldn't distinguish Google from the Web in general if their life depended on it. It's idiots like these who know less than nothing and actually think they can judge tech and its requirements. Admitted, quite a few if not most of those actually *are* above 40, but they shouldn't get to call out for digital natives. They'd mistake a resus monkey for one.
Not a big increase in complaints (Score:3)
At the same time, age discrimination complaints have spiraled upward, according to the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, with 15,785 claims filed in 1997 compared to 20,588 filed in 2014.
In 17 years the number of complaints went up by 30%. However according to the Census Bureau, the number of "Mathematical and Computer Science" workers increased by 150% between 1997 and 2012 (from 1.3 Million to 3.3 Million). The number of job postings likely scaled similarly, so the complaints per posting actually went down.
Source:
http://www.census.gov/prod/3/9... [census.gov]
http://www.census.gov/compendi... [census.gov]
digital native (Score:5, Funny)
I'm a digital native.
I learned to program on a DEC-20, PDP-8, PDP-11, and later worked on VAX-11 and Alpha, for Digital. How much more Digital (tm) do you want?
Re: (Score:3)
I had a similar thought reading the headline. I'm at work in an old DEC facility. All the old farts here are "natives" in that they worked here for DEC and whatever companies happened to call this home ever since.
I guess "digital native" is the positive version of "gen cupcake".
I would point out the obvious (Score:5, Insightful)
that natives were there first. But this seems lost on young recruiters.
Comment removed (Score:4, Insightful)
Meh, it's an overated issue (Score:3)
Most of the time when those tech companies are targeting the young people it's naiveté that they are really looking for.
They want someone who will work all their waking hours on salary and not bitch about it because they think they are "a part of something". They think they are working on the next Facebook and they are going to get rich because they are among the early employees.
In actuality they are just looking to pump as much cheap labor as they possibly can until either the kids are all burnt out and they dump them for fresh ones or they can find someone to sell the company to, likely laying everyone off but getting the owner a nice check out of the deal.
Most older people should know better by now anyway and realize they aren't missing much.
Where did this bizarre idea come from? (Score:3)
I have worked in IT since 1979.
Where do people get this idea that IT workers work with old technologies? The idea is not true, and makes no sense.
Do older car mechanics only know how to work on older cars? How about older doctors, lawyers, scientists?
Do you think an installation has new technologies for younger workers, and older technologies for older workers?
I work with latest released technologies all the time.
Re:Sort of dumb. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Sort of dumb. (Score:5, Interesting)
Plus, of course, it's still not that rare for people elsewhere in "IT" to switch over to software development at some point. They may actually be willing to take a salary cut and work for entry-level pay if that's what it takes to make the switch.
There are many reasons why pay alone doesn't "keep the old guys away", and some companies really do only want young workers. They tend to be very exploitative companies, however, banking on someone in their first job not recognizing how badly they're being used. Age discrimination may well be low on the list of sins for some of these companies.
Re:Sort of dumb. (Score:4, Insightful)
Plus, of course, it's still not that rare for people elsewhere in "IT" to switch over to software development at some point. They may actually be willing to take a salary cut and work for entry-level pay if that's what it takes to make the switch.
There are many reasons why pay alone doesn't "keep the old guys away", and some companies really do only want young workers. They tend to be very exploitative companies, however, banking on someone in their first job not recognizing how badly they're being used. Age discrimination may well be low on the list of sins for some of these companies.
This pretty much says it all right here.
They might as well advertise for "Naive, spinless young suckers who'll do anything for a buck."
Re: (Score:3)
They might as well advertise for "Naive, spinless young suckers who'll do anything for a buck."
That's how they should advertise the job so that more experienced people don't waste their time. It's the same old story once you get there and it takes a lot of social skills and energy to walk away amicably. Most of the time it isn't a happy ending for anyone.
Re: (Score:3)
There's a large employer in my area that basically staffs entirely with college grads. I've seen the compensation packages they're offered and they're not awful, but given the hours they generally work and the demands placed upon them they're not really fair. Part of the company's repeated excuse for not hiring more experienced devs is "it takes us too long to break them of the habits they picked up elsewhere." Which doesn't speak well of their development practices, frankly - if all you get from experie
Re:Sort of dumb. (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Sort of dumb. (Score:5, Interesting)
Of course, the reason is quite possibly because the 25 year old supervisor is inexperienced and doesn't take kindly to that being pointed out.
Posting anon because I'm about to talk about a former client I did some consulting for. It's a Valley startup. All a bunch of young guys, mostly with one job behind them. One guy did actually have a family, though. Anyway, at one point we were discussing interviewing and hiring. They didn't seem to think there was anything unusual about asking an interview candidate to spend an entire day doing pair programming with them on their own codebase. I pointed out that this would be fine for college students who could bunk off lectures and spend all day watching the interviewer tap out Go, but more experienced/older guys would probably find this a bit problematic, especially if they already have a job. Google can get away with 8 interviews and all day assessments and still hire very senior people because it has the reputation as a great place to work and with great pay, so people put up with the long process. Not every company can do this.
Their response: "well, maybe we don't want to hire senior guys".
I don't think they'd consider themselves explicitly agist. But they very much wanted to hire people just like themselves, and that almost by definition excluded "old" people (anyone 40 or over). This didn't extend to sexism by the way: they were very keen on hiring female interns and recent college grads to write code for them. But they didn't want some guy in his 40's or 50's turning up and pointing out that maybe some of the modern dev fashions they were following had already come and gone in the 1990's, and perhaps using uncool but tried and tested technology would have some real benefits.
Re: (Score:3)
Re:Sort of dumb. (Score:5, Insightful)
People over 40 can be good with technology too. Most of the younger people never learned how a CPU works, how to work with limited RAM, etc. Stop giving cutting-edge technology to your people in IT because most of the rest of the company (or the world, if you work with the Web) never has cutting-edge hardware either. Your bloated code may run "fine" on your maxed-out 2015 workstation but it's painfully slow to use on the mid-to-low-range, five-years-old hardware that other people use.
Web example: if you have people who can't even correctly choose between PNG and JPEG for the graphic format of an image (logo/chart vs photo), they're not using technology correctly, no matter what their age is. If you work in IT, age shouldn't have anything to do with it. The only difference is that most veterans won't be jumping to the flavour-of-the-week languages and just keep using what works best for the job.
Re:Sort of dumb. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Sort of dumb. (Score:4, Insightful)
Exactly right. I'm a year younger than you and I've been a "digital native" since I was playing around with my TI-99/4a and converting programs in Byte magazine to TI-basic in 1981. Far too many of these millennial "digital natives" are about as deep as a kiddy pool. They've used one or two technologies that work for them and that's it. Hammer-nail syndrome.
Re: Sort of dumb. (Score:4, Insightful)
I'm 61, my first useful PC was an XT clone. I transitioned from office machines to PC service, then networking, helped run a dialup ISP, spent a decade connecting my clients to that Internet thing.
My clients were using email, intranet and extended web sites to share work, and working remotely before there was Google or Facebook.
I've been digital since there was digital. I was even playing MMOG before there was Internet.
I should go to college just to annoy the kids. I already work with teams where the 25- year-olds are in charge, and we do fine. After our team proves them somewhat misled, they listen to us.
Re:Sort of dumb. (Score:4, Interesting)
"The hardware knowledge argument has become virtually irrelevant in the EC2-world where you can spawn VM pretty much transparently."
But not cost free.
The every cent spent of VM comes right out of the bottom line. Take a look at the all the hard work Facebook does at optimizing.
Re:Sort of dumb. (Score:4, Informative)
Who do you think creates and enhances that VM technology? Who configures the servers, comes up with the load balancing strategies, and keeps our security tight? I can assure you it is the middle aged smart guys at my company... The kids we hire right out of college are almost worthless the first 3 years. Good thing we are willing to mentor you young snots!
Re: (Score:3)
Right, we forgot, Amazon VMs are magical devices powered by hopes and dreams, rather than CPU cycles like old fashioned "computers" are.
Back here in reality cloud virtual machines are just a shitty containment mechanism that's sort of like an operating system process, only dramatically less efficient. Did you know that Google, not a company exactly famous for lacking clue, doesn'
Re:Sort of dumb. (Score:5, Insightful)
Riiiiight. Because of us old folks didn't do digital before you were a glean in your daddy's eye. You think you know digital? We gave it life.
Health Insurance (Score:4, Insightful)
The real issue behind the "young movement" and a way to stop it cold is to deal with health insurance. Disallow health insurance to use age as a pricing factor, and watch how quickly the job market changes. I had a buddy that just went to an interview, and was flat out told that they have too many "old" people in the company and require some 20-somethings. Their insurance rates were too high.
In fact, I'd go so far as to state that basic health insurance (wellness visits, accident coverage, and basic illness diagnosis) should be 1 price for everyone, with no disqualifications allowed, with some base high deductible capped coverage for general illnesses. This would be relatively cheap as it stands today. Then additional coverage for whatever as we have today could be purchased on top.
Re: (Score:3)
An even better way would be to not force people to hand over their money to private companies. Let the people decide what is best for them rather than being told what to do.
I know, personal responsibility. It's an evil concept.
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:3)
Here in Australia, private health insurance premiums are allowed to increase according to the age at which the person joined the fund, penalising people who only join (to supplement the universal back-up) in old age when 90% of health spending occurs. It seems fair.
The difference with the US is that health insurance isn't associated with employers — you buy your own. This is why you get the age discrimination you mention.
Re:Who invented the digital world, anyway? (Score:5, Insightful)
Older folks make better money, tend to laugh when their 35 year old boss tries to intimidate them, and are wise to corporate dirty tricks that zip right over a youngsters head without so much as ruffling that thick hair.
Re: (Score:3)
Pretty much exactly so.
What you didn't mention is that's a perfectly valid business reason. On more than a few levels what management says may be complete BS but at the end of the day if the goals aren't met there isn't a job at that company for anyone. Having a workforce you can wring that maximum effort out of helps immensely. It's also easier to build company loyalty with younger people.
Re:Entry level... (Score:4, Funny)
Entry level implies no experience. If I applied for a position in brain surgery, I would apply for an entry-level position. I've never done that before, but how hard can it be?