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Microsoft Programming

Is Microsoft's .NET Ecosystem On the Decline? 250

Nerval's Lobster writes: In a posting that recently attracted some buzz online, .NET developer Justin Angel (a former program manager for Silverlight) argued that the .NET ecosystem is headed for collapse—and that could take interest in C# along with it. "Sure, you'll always be able to find a job working in C# (like you would with COBOL), but you'll miss out on customer reach and risk falling behind the technology curve," he wrote. But is C# really on the decline? According to Dice's data, the popularity of C# has risen over the past several years; it ranks No. 26 on Dice's ranking of most-searched terms. But Angel claims he pulled data from Indeed.com that shows job trends for C# on the decline. Data from the TIOBE developer interest index mirrors that trend, he said, with "C# developer interest down approximately 60% down back to 2006-2008 levels." Is the .NET ecosystem really headed for long-term implosion, thanks in large part to developers devoting their energies to other platforms such as iOS and Android?
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Is Microsoft's .NET Ecosystem On the Decline?

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  • Non-story (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 18, 2015 @02:12PM (#49938835)

    Submitted by Nerval's Lobster? Check
    Shilling for Dice? Check

    • Submitted by Nerval's Lobster? Check
      Shilling for Dice? Check

      I love that everyone hates the cross-promotional crap they try to do.

    • But isn't it kinda cute that Dice thinks anyone *anywhere*, (never mind here on /.), takes their pontifications seriously enough to give a crap?
  • Dice? LOL (Score:5, Funny)

    by Lunix Nutcase ( 1092239 ) on Thursday June 18, 2015 @02:13PM (#49938845)

    According to Dice's data,

    Did they read tea leaves or chicken bones?

  • hogwash (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 18, 2015 @02:18PM (#49938879)

    hogwash

  • Slashdot layout (Score:5, Informative)

    by iONiUM ( 530420 ) on Thursday June 18, 2015 @02:18PM (#49938881) Journal

    My Slashdot layout just changed, there's no more 'read more' button. Just 'share'. You have to find the small annotation in the top right for the comments? What the hell.

    • Re:Slashdot layout (Score:5, Informative)

      by Lunix Nutcase ( 1092239 ) on Thursday June 18, 2015 @02:22PM (#49938919)

      Yeah they're dicking with shit again. Luckily that button is easily blocked by ABP. They've also broken the layout a few times in the last couple of minutes when I've refreshed.

      • by Thud457 ( 234763 ) on Thursday June 18, 2015 @02:34PM (#49939019) Homepage Journal
        FUCK IT! I'll do it live and test it in production!
      • Re:Slashdot layout (Score:5, Insightful)

        by vivaoporto ( 1064484 ) on Thursday June 18, 2015 @03:58PM (#49939267)
        Fellow slashdot webdevs, please don't test in production. Below is how it looks like on Safari for Mac.

        http://s7.postimg.org/5rhru2q6z/image.png [postimg.org]
        http://s7.postimg.org/qacnz544b/image.png [postimg.org]

        Not to spoil but the main problems are:

        1. People that remained on classic Slashdot theme expects just that: the classic theme. Please don't change it. Considering that the main elements of the articles didn't change much (title, summary, number of comments, submitter, link, etc), the same going for the comments (title, score, commenter, date, etc) it shouldn't be hard to make a separate theme for this (admittedly stubborn) users and leave it alone.

        2. The new "cartoon balloon" showing the number of comments is overlapping when the article is collapsed (see first screenshot above)

        3. Seems like the old way to show the number of comments was forgotten below the cartoon balloon (see first screenshot above)

        4. In the sidebar, seems like "This day on Slashdot" was completely forgotten in the new style (see second screenshot above)

        5. It's really acceptable after being bought by Dice to show "Latest Tech Jobs" prominently in the sidebar, we understand that's one of the perks of being the owner. But at least put back the Poll above the fold and push Slashdot Deals and Featured Videos below the fold. 6. It may not have been the intention but it feels really underhanded to replace the (probable) most clicked link in the homepage (Read More) and replace it with the "Share" button. That will more likely to be the main complain, will cost Slashdot a lot of old timers and probably will be as loudly rejected as Beta.

        Please put Read More back where it was, I'm sure you guys already realised we are not much a sharing bunch, privacy concerns and all that.
        • I'm just UXing here, but point #6 was terribly confusing as it seemed to be part of point #5.

          Otherwise spot on. Slashdot should have the community comment/vote on changes and then have a true "beta" (not the shit we had before of course) that people could comment on.

          Actually, they should just leave it all alone. There's enough change in the real world, can I have a consistent, expected Slashdot experience?

    • by afidel ( 530433 )

      They even changed it for classic.slashdot.org, wrtf?

    • Or you could just click the article name. Still, kinda messed up. but whatever. I figure the more people who ditch this site, the better chance I have for first posts.
    • Does anyone ever click those share buttons anyways, other than perhaps accidentally?

      I don't use much social media so I have no idea if they show up frequently, if at all. The only time I can ever recall seeing one was in an image capture of someone who had (perhaps accidentally) shared a porn video, which for whatever damned reason had Facebook integration.

      One would think that people come here to get away from the Facebook crowd and that the Facebook crowd has little interest in what's posted here, so
      • Does anyone ever click those share buttons anyways, other than perhaps accidentally?

        I click the one on Youtube that sends stuff to G+ sometimes, I figure that actually makes sense. But yeah, it's conceivable that I would use that button myself... again, to send stuff to G+. It's more often I see stuff there that I post here (my last accepted submission, for example) but I do get some good results resharing slashdot stories to G+ on occasion.

      • I'm old-fashioned. If I want to share, I copy/paste the URL in the social network of choice.

    • by antdude ( 79039 )

      I got a 503 error earlier and not logged in. :/

    • by OhPlz ( 168413 )

      No doubt the work of another fine "UX Engineer".

    • by dmomo ( 256005 )

      Yeah, It's annoying. The new corporate overlords are trying to force us to be "social". They do realize that if we DID want to share, we're savvy enough to share the original link, not a link to slashdot, right? No.. let's not give them that credit.

    • you can also click on the title.
    • Fellow slashdot webdevs, please don't test in production. Below is how it looks like on Safari for Mac.

      http://s7.postimg.org/5rhru2q6z/image.png [postimg.org]
      http://s7.postimg.org/qacnz544b/image.png [postimg.org]

      Not to spoil but the main problems are:

      1. People that remained on classic Slashdot theme expects just that: the classic theme. Please don't change it. Considering that the main elements of the articles didn't change much (title, summary, number of comments, submitter, link, etc), the same going for the comments
  • Next question, please.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 18, 2015 @02:20PM (#49938905)

    Fucking Slashdot is on the decline.

    WTF do you think we want ot share Shashdot to Facebook and other shit for?

    Fuck you guys suck at maintaining a fucking website. Stop changing everything. Stop trying to be all fucking social media. Just fucking stop.

    Fuck you dice, and fuck you Nerval's Lobster -- your apparent function is to write fucking shill articles which point to fucking dice.

  • Too soon to tell? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Squatting_Dog ( 96576 ) on Thursday June 18, 2015 @02:26PM (#49938969)

    With the .NET platform now being available for cross platform development I can't see how there could be a decline in C#. It's only been about 6 months since MS offered .NET for other platforms I don't think that's enough time for any valid conclusions to be made. Wait another 6 months to a year and then take another look. I think we will see an increase in C#/.NET reflected in those numbers.

     

    • I see cross-platform development as a non-issue to the .NET world. The people who were really excited about it were already invested in the Microsoft ecosystem, and the ones who wanted to do .NET on Linux were already doing it with Mono (which was actually fine).

      I think it's great that Microsoft is open-sourcing parts, but it isn't going to make a huge impact.
    • Yeah but Linux developers will use C++. It wouldn't be very friendly to the Linux Dev community if the framework wasn't C++ compatible especially since it's the most used language for app dev on Linux.

    • Re: (Score:2, Flamebait)

      by Dadoo ( 899435 )

      With the .NET platform now being available for cross platform development I can't see how there could be a decline in C#.

      You'd have to be an idiot to use .NET for cross-platform development. In five or so years, Microsoft will discontinue cross-platform support, giving some BS excuse, like "no one was using it." What will the cross-platform developers do then, rewrite their code in a language that's really cross-platform? Doubt it.

      As I've said here, before, this is just more Embrace, Extend, Extinguish.

    • Let's assume the data is valid. What can we deduce? .NET/C# is the language of the desktop/server. Did they bother to normalize the data accordingly? I doubt it. What I see is considerable buzz within the web/mobile space and the jobs resultant from that. For the most part I don't think they represent replacement jobs, they represent new demand.
  • by sudden.zero ( 981475 ) <sudden.zero@[ ]il.com ['gma' in gap]> on Thursday June 18, 2015 @02:27PM (#49938973)
    ...that no one cares about posted by some jackhole dice moderator. I wish some rich Slashdot reader would buy dice to acquire Slashdot, and then fire all Dice employees, and shut dice down. FU DICE! Stop ruining Slashdot!
  • by vux984 ( 928602 ) on Thursday June 18, 2015 @02:27PM (#49938977)

    This seems more like an acknowledgement that ios and android are where the majority of new development jobs are right now than anything else.

    Does that mean C# or .NET is on "the decline"? I suppose, strictly speaking yes. But it doesn't remotely mean its on the way to becoming like COBOL where its only used by legacy products. Windows destkop and servers are still being deployed in the millions, and .NET is an excellent platform for new development if you are targeting that market.

    • by ilguido ( 1704434 ) on Thursday June 18, 2015 @04:01PM (#49939285)
      Justin Angel's post is quite insightful on the matter. He is simply reckoning that .net is probably past its prime: there are much less jobs for .net than for Java/Swift/HTML5+JS, open source developers are leaving .net, the ecosystem as whole is shrinking and fragmenting. He lists a number of reasons for this decline, but he doesn't say in a year there will be no more .net, just that it is going down.
    • by Dutch Gun ( 899105 ) on Thursday June 18, 2015 @04:50PM (#49939861)

      It's the same analysis that lead people to conclude that because mobile gaming was on the rise, console gaming was therefore going to disappear. And the same logic let pundits to conclude that we're now in a "post-PC" world. The ascendance of one market does cause a shift in proportions of other parts of the market, but doesn't necessarily lead to a complete collapse. Even if .NET is in overall decline, I think that speaks to the larger decline, proportionally speaking, of the desktop PC market. However, Windows still *completely* dominates that market, so .NET/C# will likely remain strong there.

      So, I'd say if we're talking about a "decline", that makes sense to me. If we're talking about a "collapse", that's absurd. Even if no one except Windows developers were using it, it would still not go away completely, because that's why the .NET platform and C# language were invented in the first place... to simplify Windows development.

    • by ADRA ( 37398 )

      Separating desktops and servers (which in this case is quite relevant):

      Servers can be Windows / Linux / etc. and it doesn't really matter. if I wanted windows, I'd spoool up a windows VM. If I wanted a Linux server, i'd spool up a Linux server instance in a VM. I ONLY WANT Windows/Linux because of the applications that run on them. Server dev environment choice in that respect don't really matter unless you're deeply entrenched in a given vendor's server API stack. I've personally never seen companies do an

      • by vux984 ( 928602 )

        I don't disagree with you. But one role of Windows servers you sort of glossed over is simply: "managing windows desktops" (active directory, group policy, etc, etc). If you are running more than a handful of windows desktops you've probably got a windows server.

        And if you've already got a bunch of windows desktops plus a windows server, it doesn't really make sense to spin up one *nix box in that environment unless you really need something that only *nix can do. It generally makes more sense to either use

  • by cdrudge ( 68377 ) on Thursday June 18, 2015 @02:28PM (#49938983) Homepage

    Any headline that ends in a question mark can be answered by the word no.

    EOM

  • by nimbius ( 983462 ) on Thursday June 18, 2015 @02:47PM (#49939037) Homepage
    .net was microsofts misguided attempt to staunch bleeding from open source competitors and recover from the increasingly drunken shit show that was ActiveX. The idea being that while most of the technology existed under Apache 2.0 license, the core redistributed package was proprietary. In typical day-late-dollar-short microsoft fashion the whole thing was hinged on a JIT compiler (because Java in 2002 was a godsend of speed and stability) and came with C++ support in 2005 (more than 20 years after the language was written...nice) via visual studio. Redmond still had a problem though, and that was without a proprietary language, the framework was pointless because C and company were all well known and reasonably portable languages that didnt net any extra cash to Microsoft. So borne of a committee C# came to be, and for many moons C# was wedged into most code shops the same way any other microsoft technology gets there: License bundles. You see programmers were writing plenty of windows software on windows machines, and compiling in windows, but discounts to licenses for the desktop OS the greybeards use was hinged upon accepting free licenses for .NET and the new C# visual studio compiler. Management, ever needful to maximize value, prevented their bosses from yelling at them and in turn started most projects down the intractable cobblestone back alley we know today as .net.

    What made matters worse for everyone was now microsoft had an underhanded way to slash the tires of its competitors. If your software beat the pants off Microsoft they might buy it, but if you didnt sell and they knew you wrote C# they used the proprietary compiler against you and simply reimplemented your software with undocumented methods and subroutines that ran faster than yours. Theyd sit out your litigation until you folded, buy up your shop for cheap, and with a few modifications rebrand your application as a microsoft component.
    • if you didnt sell and they knew you wrote C# they used the proprietary compiler against you and simply reimplemented your software with undocumented methods and subroutines that ran faster than yours. Theyd sit out your litigation until you folded, buy up your shop for cheap, and with a few modifications rebrand your application as a microsoft component.

      Has that ever happened?

    • Short and sweet, .NET was a response to Java.

  • This social media S--T they keep pushing.
    These DICE links and plugs that we keep getting from Nerval's Lobster?

    C# isn't declining in popularity from where I sit - Slashdot is.
    Why do I come here?

  • I sometimes wonder if programming in general is in decline. Of course, there are hot spot areas, such as phone apps at the moment. Based on my own anecdotal observations, there seems to be more demand for System Architects than Programmers. It's a "Software as a service" world now, and companies want people who can choose the correct puzzle pieces to put together into a practical system. With the advent of "cloud" services, where services are not just shared within an organization, but across the entire
    • by jbolden ( 176878 )

      Just as you need glue code to tie together libraries to make an application you need glue code to tie together SaaS services to make a unified service. The libraries now are just SaaS APIs.

  • Microsoft is pushing .net in directions no one thought it would five years ago in terms of being an open development platform. I think this will help boost c# popularity if anything. C# is a nice language to work with, and Visual Studio is a nice IDE to work with for the most part (it's virtual filesystem has got to go, and needs better RCS integration a la Eclipse).

  • Terrible Analysis (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Zalbik ( 308903 ) on Thursday June 18, 2015 @03:39PM (#49939135)

    Stick with program managing, Justin. Actually, given you were responsible for Silverlight, find some other career entirely.

    If you check Perl [indeed.com], Java [indeed.com], PHP [indeed.com] or C++ [indeed.com] on Indeed.com, you will see exactly the same trends.

    If you perform his same terrible analysis of the TIOBE index [tiobe.com], PHP, C++, VB.NET, Objective-C are all going to collapse. Apparently Java has been "heading for collapse" since 2004.

    People who can't do statistics shouldn't report on them.

    The problem does not appear to be that C# is becoming less popular (than other languages), it's appears that custom application development as a whole is becoming less popular than it was a few years ago.

    This may be due to the economy, outsourcing, mobile platforms or whatever. You can't suddenly pull reasons out of your ass like this being due to "Microsoft’s ever revolving door of new technologies", despite how pissed off you are at them for shit-canning your pet project.

    When doing stats on whether something is less popular, it's helpful to ask "less popular than what". Sure, it may be less popular than it used to be, but so are the competing languages. This does not indicate that the C# ecosystem is going to collapse.

  • You're more likely to find a job using Indeed, especially if you poll the website frequently and jump on a job post when it becomes available. If you respond within 15 minutes, you're likely to get an interview. I've gotten many interviews through Indeed. DICE, meh.
  • Let me guess, fewer people are using /. so the bright idea is to post flaimbait stories to try and drive people back to the site?

    Fail.

  • According to Dice's data, the popularity of C# has risen over the past several years; it ranks No. 26 on Dice's ranking of most-searched terms. But Angel claims he pulled data from Indeed.com that shows job trends for C# on the decline.

    In other words,

    "We cannot figure out what is going on in the IT marketplace, but we are supposed to be a resource for the IT marketplace. Please, help us analyze these trends because we cannot reconcile the differences ourselves!"

  • Like any statistic, it must be compared to something. In this case C# is being compared with other languages that have been riding the mobile device market. With MS's mobile market share being what it is it's not surprising that C# is appearing to have weaker growth compared to say C++,Java...

    At the end of the day C# is just another way to write code. If you are good at reading/writing code it doesn't matter what language it's in. My strongest language is C# because it's what I've done for the last 8 years

  • by TangoCharlie ( 113383 ) on Thursday June 18, 2015 @04:00PM (#49939275) Homepage Journal

    Microsoft sealed the fate of .Net by not choosing it as the basis for Windows 8.x and the metro UI. That indicated that Microsoft no longer sees .Net as the next gen framework for Windows, .Net has, of course, done its job. Which was to kill Java. Which, for desktop applications, it has.

    As a Windows developer, it leaves me with somewhat of a dilemma. Which framework is the way forward on the Windows platform? It's not MFC, nor Silverlight. Is it .Net? Is it Metro?

    • by Twinbee ( 767046 )
      If you apply that logic generally, you could say Microsoft tried to kill Windows by trying to force Metro upon everyone. .Net is the good part; Metro however can dive off a cliff.
    • MS didn't kill Java - Oracle did. ...
      And on a sidenote:
      You might want to consider abandoning Windows as a plattform.

      If you're looking for something stable with a brand and a future, perhaps you should try the Google ecosystem. With either web or android. I see Windows on the downslope. It only takes a critical mass to see Exchange as a dated groupware model and moving to Google and to see a subscription to office software for the bizar contraption it is and moving that to Googles free version aswell. Once t

  • Just about every .NET implementation I see has all sorts of crap in there, completely black-box.
    And when it breaks, usually because the programmers assume some bog-standard "clean" environment, there's no actual "troubleshooting" recourse.

  • Most C# developer I've met over the years search without the C# tag like I do. I'll do something like this: ".NET copy filestream to memorystream".

  • No. Its not an the decline. It's a rock solid language and in a few cases i had to bind complex functionality on windows systems in a controlled way, and used C# and it was a very good experience. I donâ(TM)t see any reason that the language will decline soon. maybe it wont have explosive growth, but Java did neither grow from one day to the next.

  • There's three basic things that Microsoft is doing right these days and it applies to .NET as well as many of their other technologies / products.

    1. They steadily iterate. .NET had the advantage of avoiding a lot of the bad old parts of Java because it came afterward and the designers had a good handle on what wasn't working. When something is missing or isn't working well, they address it in the next release. Microsoft has had a fairly consistent 7 major releases in 12 years. The longest gap was 2.5 yea

    • How much did that low UID cost Microsoft?

    • #3 is pure shill. MSDN documentation is crap for 90% of what you search for compared to how it was back in 2000.

      The big problem with MSDN is that they change URL schemes every 2-3 years, breaking every reference URL that you might have saved. Then there's the almost, but not quite, completely useless form of the documentation which tells you everything you already know without making the water less murky.
    • I still love languages like Scala and Python and I still want Linux for most of my web servers, but the gaps are closing and the game is getting really interesting. If you are ignoring Microsoft, you may get caught by surprise.

      The funny part is, MS is no longer trying to pretend that the world ends at its bubble - .NET is nice, but not all people like it, and it's not perfect for everything; and that's okay. So, for example, you can do Python using Microsoft tools [visualstudio.com] and on Microsoft [microsoft.com] platforms [github.io] (and yes, it is all open [github.com] source [github.com] under sane licenses like AL 2.0). At the same time, a Microsoft employee [pycon.org] is one of the core CPython maintainers, and is basically responsible for the official Win32 releases. Expect more of that kind of thing in

  • When PHBs think of development, they think of one of two things: either an MS Access database with code-behind in VBA, or they think of Visual Studio. Naturally, nearly all of the most useful features of Visual Studio hook into at least some kind of .NET language or runtime.

    As long as PHBs continue to consider Microsoft stuff as the "name brand" for software development, like Kleenex for tissues, we won't see .NET going anywhere. After all, if they're willing to bankroll $1M in license fees for a couple hun

  • It takes longer to run the .net updates than it takes for the whole rest of a reinstall.
    What crap!

  • With MS now opensourcing their .NET framework, and more and more crossplatform development enviroments using it, I don't see it happening that it will really go into decline.. Let's not forget C# is a language which is not specifically coupled with .NET..

    But what would be the next 'hip' language to do your work in?

  • Because the world can never have enough calculator utilities. But mostly because .Net is the perfect zombie code.

  • .Net, from day one, was a vehicle for clueless middle-managers to justify sitting around blabbering web-economy bullshit [dack.com] and spending ginormous amounts of money for their consulting buddys to scoop up because they have a few devs at hand that are willing to play along and develop under-performing, non-future-safe, overpriced superfluos crappy MS-lockin middleware and shoddy MS SharePain intranets.

    I said it when .Net came out, and it holds true to this very day: With Java and other toolsets being FOSS, there

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