Chinese Tech Companies Hire 'Cheerleaders' To Motivate Programmers 371
HughPickens.com writes: Lauren O'Neil writes at CBC News that internet companies "across China" are hiring "pretty, talented girls that help create a fun work environment." Dubbed "programming cheerleaders," these young women serve to chit-chat, play Ping-Pong with employees as part of their role, and sometimes smile and clap for male employees who play guitar in the office, as indicated by photos posted to the news service's verified "Trending in China" Facebook page. "According to the HR manager of an Internet company that hired three such cheerleaders, its programmers are mostly male and terrible at socializing," reads China.org.cn's Facebook post. "The presence of these girls have greatly improved their job efficiency and motivation."
However people from all over the world have weighed in to decry the reported role. "This is degrading — both to the 'cheerleaders' and the programmers," wrote one commenter on the original post. "Look at the face of the poor woman programmer in the second picture. Stereotypical 'bro' culture only now with Chinese subtitles." Others suggest that the company pictured should simply hire more female programmers. "What a ridiculous job, why reduce women to only be valued by their looks and to assist males. Let them have a job at the desk using their minds!" wrote one woman.
However people from all over the world have weighed in to decry the reported role. "This is degrading — both to the 'cheerleaders' and the programmers," wrote one commenter on the original post. "Look at the face of the poor woman programmer in the second picture. Stereotypical 'bro' culture only now with Chinese subtitles." Others suggest that the company pictured should simply hire more female programmers. "What a ridiculous job, why reduce women to only be valued by their looks and to assist males. Let them have a job at the desk using their minds!" wrote one woman.
I knew I shoulda learned to speak Mandarin... (Score:5, Insightful)
In all seriousness though, how does such a massive distraction *not* interfere with a job where you have to, you know, focus?
(...not that I'd complain or anything, but seriously...)
Re:I knew I shoulda learned to speak Mandarin... (Score:4, Interesting)
I think it's a cultural thing, but I'm largely talking out of my ass.
In Asian cultures (from my limited exposure from TV and the like) there seems to be a much higher prevalence of this "curated enthusiasm" as well as the accompanying "hostess" type things where the perky young girls are there to keep the enthusiasm up.
From the Japanese tendency to have that morning "let's all go" thing, to the hostesses in Karaoke bars it's there but I've never grokked it.
This would seriously annoy the hell out of me, but my threshold for perky and enthusiastic is pretty much nil.
Re:I knew I shoulda learned to speak Mandarin... (Score:5, Informative)
In Japan the above coupled with the importance of one's company (the loyalty owed) means a non-workplace is needed to hash out personal problems. You can't ever show you're unhappy at work, but you need a place to bring up real problems so you have to go. After all someone else may have a bone to pick with you. So you all go to the karaoke bar, drink a little, and whatever comes out there doesn't have to interfere with work. Steam gets released and you can return to work with a better mutual understanding and hopefully less stress.
In the Philippines and Indonesia (and Italy?) laughing is often used to show displeasure. The root of humor is a disconnect between what one is supposed to perceive and what one does perceive. They laugh to say "I'm supposed to be feeling good about you but that's different from what I feel". But you always smile and laugh together because it means you're still socially connected. To stop laughing is to declare you're refusing future discourse: diplomacy has failed.
So in a lot of places a lot of laughing means something completely different from, "ha ha that was funny" and a smile means something different from "I'm happy". To bring in a cheerleader is to support employees by helping them pretend and break up the tension behind the smiles.
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That's Confucianism in a nutshell. The welfare of your group (be it fa
Re:I knew I shoulda learned to speak Mandarin... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:I knew I shoulda learned to speak Mandarin... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:I knew I shoulda learned to speak Mandarin... (Score:5, Insightful)
Given the historical amounts of epic stupidity committed in the name of men showing off for women ... you really don't want this as part of your corporate culture.
No, pretty much the point at which this can happen is why this was a failure from the get to.
If the guys are showing off, and honestly believe they're going to have some sexual contact as part of this ... you're really only going to get the worst forms of stupidity and harassment.
This just screams "huge problems waiting to happen".
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Yeah, but the Chinese policy of "Pay for your own bullet" kinda keeps things in check.
Re:I knew I shoulda learned to speak Mandarin... (Score:4, Insightful)
> Given the historical amounts of epic stupidity committed in the name of men showing off for women
Did you misspell "society"? Or are you just trashing macho guys because it's safe? Men's motivation to impress women has been responsible for far many great things than derp moments. In fact, you'd be cherry picking to find cases where men trying to impress women has ended badly. You'd be cherry picking so hard you didn't include a single example, that's how hard them cherries are to find.
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In all seriousness though, how does such a massive distraction *not* interfere with a job where you have to, you know, focus?
I'm guessing that the amount of attention and cozy attitude you get is highly related to your job performance. I think roughly 99% of all clothes store selling clothes to men employ attractive women, if they tell you it looks great on you we're affected even though they probably say that about everything to everybody some part of your brain wants to think "a hot girl thinks I'm sexy in this". If they can make that a (sub-?)conscious competition you know that males will go to great lengths to impress a girl.
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It does interfere. Otherwise they wouldn't hire the girls.
It's quite well founded in science that work performance increases in these kind of situations. And goes way down with porn filters etc.
Workplaces without distractions does not perform well. This has been known for thousands of years. I don't understand how the misconception that bored people someway works harder still prevails.
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Plus most programmers in the US could use practice in chatting socially with pretty young women.
Re:I knew I shoulda learned to speak Mandarin... (Score:4, Interesting)
It might work if the girls are there to provide "stress relief". It's kind of like some companies where they bring in some massage therapists to give free massages to employees who want one. That's about the only way I can see this "programmer cheerleader" concept working.
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No wonder they're kicking our ass here in the US.
Maybe try loosening the dress code? (Score:2)
Camaraderie and a relaxed atmosphere are a perfect fit for tech, which can be especially stressful around crunch-time, what with long hours and whatnot. This, however, strikes me as contrived.
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Move to Colorado. T-shirts, shorts and flip-flops are pretty much standard wear for programmers from Colorado Springs to Denver to Boulder to Fort Collins.
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You know what? Learn to dress like an adult anyway.
Sooner or later the ability to wear grown up clothes, possibly including a tie, and not fidget like some damned 4 year old is an important life skill.
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I'm almost 30. I know how to dress like an adult. I own several ties, even a couple bow ties. And you know what? Dressing like an adult sucks. Not having to dress like I'm attending a fucking funeral every day is a pretty great perk.
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You know, do it a little more often and it's not so bad as long as you're buying shirts that actually fit.
On occasion, I've had to wear a shirt and tie for a whole day or even most days.
It's not my first choice, but it comes in handy to have the ability to do it comfortably. That way if you ever have to be in a wedding (or attend a funeral) you won't look like the idiot who is always yanking at his tie.
Besides, there are times when even a geek needs to scrub up all purty like to impress. Women like men wh
Re: Maybe try loosening the dress code? (Score:2)
I dont know, I spent close to a decade first at a startup in Denver that got bought by McAfee which got bought by reply Intel, got laid off about 2 years ago and I'm not working at a "mature" startup in downtown Denver that runs in the black. Has kegs a microbrew culture and is generally all around awesome. I'm making more and have never been happiest.
Ping-Pong diplomacy (Score:3)
Re:Ping-Pong diplomacy (Score:5, Funny)
the cheerleader playing ping-pong in those high heels is asking for a broken ankle.
Dude, the idea is that in heels she will miss every shot... thus having to walk slowly over to the ball, then bend over to carefully pick up said ball.
Clearly you did not think this all the way through. Bro card suspension: One Week.
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The female programmer mentioned in the summary doesn't seem upset at all, just focusing on her work. But the cheerleader playing ping-pong in those high heels is asking for a broken ankle.
Shouldn't the female programmer get male cheerleaders, or someone who arouses her so that she's more inspired to go to work every day?
Re:Ping-Pong diplomacy (Score:5, Funny)
No, she's the one who suggested hiring the female cheerleaders. With them around her male coworkers aren't doing as much so she has fewer of their mistakes to fix.
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That and there are fewer of them trying to hump her leg at staff parties....
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
China recognizes neither same-sex marriage nor civil unions.
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On average, sex is probably a bigger motivator for males than it is for females, but that doesn't mean it can't also work for women or that there isn't some analog that is equally effective.
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But the cheerleader playing ping-pong in those high heels is asking for a broken ankle.
Forget synchronized swimming in the next Olympics . . . I'll be watching the women's Strip Ping-Pong!
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Possibly not. The Chinese know their table tennis.
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I actually like the idea... (Score:5, Interesting)
... just not the execution of it.
Having a dedicated staff to driving the culture of your company can have a huge impact and pay massive dividends in retention, employee satisfaction, and willingness to go the extra mile.
One of my previous employers had an employee that started out as a receptionist. She always decorated for the holidays, and she was super social, so she organized extra circular activities. Bowling leagues, wine tastings, etc... She was also tasked with organizing our holiday party, summer picnic, office Olympics, city scour scavenger hunt, and tons of other ideas she helped build in the company.
Eventually, it became clear that these tasks took too much time for her to also be the receptionist, so the CEO created a new position for her to focus on the corporate culture, events, and social media.
Best decision he made. She wasn't a cheer leader running around in a short skirt, but her efforts to make the company a fun place to work were way more impactful than any executive direction.
-Rick
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I think it's brilliant. And if "both sides are degraded", what is the problem? Both sides may enjoy it very much. I'd switch jobs if such perks were given.
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Meh, your anecdote smacks of US executives observing Japanese team bonding exercises and assuming those were why Japanese corproations were so successful, instead of their permanent jobs with good salaries and conditions, leading to an endless circus of cargo cult morale building which mostly annoyed people.and generated zero company loyalty.
This story doesn't really denigrate the women despite the rainbow dyed legbeard brigade's shrieks of outrage, they're getting paid and I would assume fairly well for wa
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Meh, your anecdote smacks of US executives observing Japanese team bonding exercises and assuming those were why Japanese corproations were so successful, instead of their permanent jobs with good salaries and conditions, leading to an endless circus of cargo cult morale building which mostly annoyed people.and generated zero company loyalty.
Speaking of "cargo cult", how does the act of paying people for this particular wage/job profile lead to successful corporations? Isn't there usually something asked in return which the worker happens to be capable of delivering on? Isn't the fact that the company can pay someone on a permanent basis an indication that the company started out successful? And couldn't we just go to some place cheap, like Somalia, and buy lots of people for those permanent jobs?
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Meh, your anecdote smacks of US executives observing Japanese team bonding exercises and assuming those were why Japanese corproations were so successful, instead of their permanent jobs with good salaries and conditions.
Japanese culture is why the Japanese method works. You can't get large numbers of Western workers to put up with large patches of unpaid overtime every week (not to mention the fact there is no reciprocal loyalty between the employer and employee).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_work_environment#Working_conditions [wikipedia.org]
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Hah, yeah, there was some of that too.
Like moving from offices to an open floor plan. But the CEO didn't like the part about parting with /his/ office for a cubical in the middle of the floor.
But the corporate culture and fun loving atmosphere were a huge boon to working there. Nerf gun wars, Segway races, RC vehicle battles, M:tG lunches, board game nights, LAN parties, etc... were regular occurrences. Things like the City Scour (a company wide off-site team based scavenger hunt) which took months of plann
Re: I actually like the idea... (Score:2)
In the military they would call her the "morale officer". It is a vital position.
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1) In part, average age was probably split evenly across gen X/Y and Millennials.
2) Nope, .Net through and through (and some Obj-C for the iPad client). Shrink wrapped software and SaaS for the building materials industry. If you buy a window or door you are almost guaranteed to have it go through this company's software.
-Rick
The Fine Article is incomplete (Score:4, Funny)
The reporter omitted the rest of the quote, which might have provided some balance by explaining how there's also some kind of downside.
Re:The Fine Article is incomplete (Score:5, Interesting)
Don't diss Hooters: A few years back, I had Hooters as a client, and I can assure you that their senior management is a) mostly former Hooters girls, and b) not at all afraid to show a LOT of cleavage (or even crack off-color jokes). It was actually a bit distracting at times, but you get used to it. (And I'm definitely not complaining.)
I visited the offices of the largest Hooters franchise several times, and the women (almost all former Hooters girls) there outnumbered the men by 2 or 3 to 1. That said, they have fun, but it is an impressively professionally-run organization - of the restaurant chains I worked with only two were more professional, and they were tops in the industry.
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Don't diss Hooters: A few years back, I had Hooters as a client, and ... they were tops in the industry.
I see what you did there.
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Chairwoman Ayn Rand has long replaced the fatso when it comes to teachings from books.
Yeah employment! (Score:4, Insightful)
Let them have a job at the desk using their minds!" wrote one woman.
Perhaps because those people aren't qualified for a desk job using their minds? Not all people are cut out for that kind of work.
If an employer hires somebody and discovers that they'll contribute more to the company by transitioning to a desk, the employer will make the transfer.
Meh - I don't see a problem (Score:2, Insightful)
A brilliant but strong male who can't find work in any other industry may take a job at a construction site to make money (and many other strong but not so brilliant ones may do the same). People can jobs based on their talents. Its all about improving efficiency.
If hiring attractive females to basically make the workplace more exciting serves to increase productivity, then so be it. It's a lot less degrading to everyone than just saying "Work harder or you're fired.".
People are just too quick to be offe
Re:Meh - I don't see a problem (Score:4, Insightful)
We're supposed to be the most "tolerant" society ever in modern times yet you can't turn a corner without offending someone
Tolerant means we strive to not offend anyone. Offense is intolerance and therefore must be removed. The problem is, once your remove all offenses, you're left with boring flat meaningless monotony; the drudgery of life. The reason is, when you add something more exciting, it will necessarily offend someone somewhere.
Hell, I bet this post offends someone, who doesn't like when people point out the ultimate silliness of Political Correctness.
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Rewriting Karl Popper 44 year later does not make you insightful, just poorly read.
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Tolerant does not mean "strive to not offend". Tolerant means "don't tell people how to behave or think", with the axiomatic underpinning being "as long as those people don't try to actively harm you".
The fact that you don't understand the meaning of a simple word like "tolerant" makes your entire post rather superfluous.
Not all coders male apparently... (Score:2)
Picture from the article: https://www.facebook.com/trend... [facebook.com]
Wonder what she thinks of this.
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The way to motivate programmers (Score:5, Insightful)
Treat them like humans and give them interesting work to do.
Effects of Sex Ratio (Score:3)
Long hours and the average computer type skewing towards being introverted or social awkward probably don't help either, but if the sex balance of the local population is disproportionately male, it likely exacerbates the problem even more.
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Except rural to urban migration in China at the moment is massive. That cultural attitude is going to have a long and harmful and impact.
Distraction? (Score:3)
Putting all gender equality issues aside for a moment, I can't see how this would be anything but a distraction and counter-productive.
The last thing I would want in my office to aid productivity would be a ton of attractive females who have no job but to fawn over the males who are supposed to be working.... its total nonsense.
Sure, it might help them attract employees, but they will have to hire 2x to 3x the number of them to counteract the productivity hit.
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How are you arriving at that conclusion..
You must be a manager that believes every second a person is not at their desk hacking a away a problem is "lost productivity"... rather than accepting the notion that sometimes, stepping away from a problem SOLVES the problem..
#1: These women are not just randomly walking around interrupting everyone's day.. they are in the breakrooms and company sponsored events.. (no different than most other companies, other than the fact that, THAT is their job)
#2: It offers t
Re:Distraction? (Score:5, Interesting)
you said
I can't see how this would be anything but a distraction and counter-productive.
TFA said
"The presence of these girls have greatly improved their job efficiency and motivation."
Personally, I find that when I'm happy I'm far more productive than when I'm unhappy.
"Wasting" time improving my mood could easily result in more useful work being done overall.
The same as any sport (Score:5, Insightful)
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Perhaps "right idea, wrong implementation"? (Score:3)
Admittedly, I'm neither 1.) a programmer, nor 2.) well-versed in Chinese culture, so those factors may raise issues with my thinking in this regard.
Having said that, I'm wondering if the abstract concept has merit. Programming (and, in my case, IT/Sysadmin work) is generally thankless, generally involves odd hours, and can very easily become a high-stress situation. While hiring beautiful women to galavant around the office seems contrived and a bit degrading, I'd argue that perhaps what could be a positive thing is the concept of "having humans on staff to give the programming folk another human with whom to interact from time to time".
I remember reading around here somewhere that a number of programmers have some inanimate object to which they describe the situation that they're in, and that the process of explaining the problem frequently yields a solution. I've got friends to whom I do my best to explain technical things in less-technical terms, and who have a propensity toward asking for further explanation. I find this helpful, and it's entirely possible that such an environment at work could assist in the same manner. An approachable person could help distill technical things so that a situation could be more quickly and effectively explained to management/marketing. Someone who genuinely feels listened to is more effective as a worker. It is in this capacity that I think having a "Counselor Troi" on staff could be advantageous to both prouctivity and morale.
Hiring hotties to play ping-pong with programmers sounds like an HR nightmare waiting to happen. Even if we put aside the "socially unskilled" stereotype, allowing "person X" to speak in confidence to "paid listener Y" is going to, at some point, yield a situation where a misunderstanding is going to escalate quickly. The general solutions to this would heavily favor one side or the other - "programmer says something wrong, assume it's a misunderstanding" becomes "programmer intentionally says something unacceptable, cries 'misunderstanding' when they get to HR". Alternatively, "Cheerleader hears something she doesn't like, we want her to keep her job, so there's no such thing as a misunderstanding that will be hand-waved away" becomes "programmer says something genuinely intended to be innocent, is misunderstood, ends up getting reprimanded", leaving us with "your call may be recorded for quality purposes", thus making it an environment where everything is being recorded, removing the possibility of truly free expression of thought...And this is why we can't have nice things.
Thus, I stand by my logic - there is merit in the abstract concept, and although I don't know if "programmer cheerleaders" is the correct implementation, I do think that "treating programmers like people, rather than caffeine-to-code conversion organisms" is something positive for the industry.
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Having said that, I'm wondering if the abstract concept has merit. Programming (and, in my case, IT/Sysadmin work) is generally thankless, generally involves odd hours, and can very easily become a high-stress situation.
I think you've hit on the problem.
Taking people for granted, or worse, treating them badly, is the real problem.
Making a point of personally thanking employees and acknowledging their hard work and sacrifices goes a long way. You don't have to overdo it or encourage narcissism, either -- a
Re:Perhaps "right idea, wrong implementation"? (Score:4, Insightful)
In your culture the girls would be just waiting for an opportunity to lodge a sexual harassment suit against the company and walk away with $bigbucks - $lawyerfees
Not all cultures are like that.
Amusing reactions (Score:2)
I like how people are outraged by this idea, but somehow it's perfectly okay for cheerleaders on other places like football teams. When put into the "nerdy guys place" suddenly there is a whole sexual air to it, I see comments like: "they are like hookers", "poor girls how they suffer surrounded by nerds", "this is sexual abuse".
I think is valid to question western society (specially in the US) why it's acceptable to have "cheerleaders" showing their asses on public television before a football/basketball m
Why? because..... (Score:3)
coding with a boner is always more fun.
Re:Why? because..... (Score:4, Funny)
coding with a boner is always more fun.
It's a requirement if you want to hit the more complex emacs commands.
Miss 2 Bits? (Score:2)
Two Bits!
Four Bits!
Six Bits!
A byte!
All for the coders, stand up and unite!
with great apologies to Mr Two Bits - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
Look, people are animals. (Score:3)
Recognizing that is not necessarily degrading. What's degrading is treating someone as less than a total human being, which includes both the animal behavior and the advanced cognitive stuff.
Most people recognize of course that reducing someone to nothing more than an object of animal behaviors is degrading. But there is something degrading in a lot of high pressure employment too, which is reducing someone to their intellectual capacity to transform information inputs to into product outputs. But we're also animals who evolved to live in medium-sized social groups, and need family and social interactions centered around feeding, grooming and (yes) reproduction to be healthy. We need family, friends, and social novelty. We need to have a personal story that extends beyond our economic outputs.
Now as to whether this particular corporate arrangement is degrading, it could well be. However I doubt that in the current Chinese context that it is. There's a lot to this situation that doesn't necessarily fit into Western assumptions, and one of the biggest factors is the unexpected ways China's one-child policy has altered the status of women. As you'd obviously expect given the Chinese cultural value of extending the male bloodline this has skewed Chinese population male -- 1.18 :: 1 at birth. And paradoxically this has actually raised the status of Chinese girls [telegraph.co.uk] as individuals, upending thousands of years of cultural tradition.
Young, attractive, talented women have immense opportunities in modern China; they don't have to accept any treatment they find degrading. This is a good thing, but the fact that it is ultimately rooted in the messy biological imperative to propagate the species is something that many people will be deeply ambivalent about. I think we'd be a lot better off if we just accepted our animal nature and use it to make everyone's lives better; or at least developed the ability to have a good laugh at ourselves. The kind of earnest, priggish, knee-jerk reaction something like this immediately evokes is rooted in deep discomfort with human nature, as well as cultural parochialism.
Sheesh.. get a grip (Score:4, Insightful)
The issue here is not tolerant meaning not trying to offend anyone, because that is an impossible task. (ex: I wear a red tie today, and the women in the elevator says the red tie OFFENDS her.. (its a freaking colour).. but rather trying to be more understanding of the other side that is expressing their individuality (ex: rather than taking offense at again, my colour tie, especially where no offense was given, or even implied, instead choosing to recognize it is in fact, just a TIE, part of any normal apparel by any human, and not look for offense where none in given. If I personally knew the person, or red was culturally insensitive (again, known) then perhaps a slight offense could be claimed.
The issue with this situation is people are getting offended by a cultural difference that does not subject these people to any degradation or offense. (other than what we, the outsiders) want to attach. I think many people said it here already, in most work places (even those outside of china), the mindset is "I don't care about your life, I wand productivity.. work harder or you are fired".. but what some people fail to recognize is programming is an art, and you can write junk code (functional but non elegant which requires more work down the line (QA, bug fixes, etc..) or elegant code.. and yes.. mood and life does enter into it by being inspired).
Simply (as some have suggested).. hire more females to program doesn't turn anyone instantly from shy to outgoing, especially if there is no assistance on HOW to interact. (and the same is true for females as well).. I've worked in programming shops in Japan (some where the ratios have been 60/40 (yes, still higher men than women).. but in ALL cases, both groups were afraid to talk with each other for fear of one, making an faux pas, or worse, an embarrassing mistake which might cost them their job.
The purpose of these "cheerleaders" is to one, break the cycle of monotony.. (yes, it can get dull hacking out code, especially if you are a grunt), two, allow these people (some of who spend 80 - 90% of their lives at work) a chance at a break, and allow them to incorporate some social norms back into their lives without fear of retribution and education. Or to put it another way.. the socially awkward geek(s) gets connected with the socially adept socialite in order to learn how to be cool (ie: almost every teen flick in the past 30 years). Virtually EVERY study indicates a happy employee is a productive employee. (why do you think Google, or Microsoft, etc... all spend so much on employee perks (food, social gatherings, etc..) these are all to bring some normality back into their lives, to forge better team bonding, and for those that are shy a chance to interact in a socially prescribed way that does not require them to use skills they may not have or suck at.
And for those that are arguing these women are being hired SOLELY on their looks, that is not always the case.. yes, their looks are part of the equation.. but their ability to help these folks out of their shells, and in effect become a "Cheerleader" is also a factor.. (not every "hot girl" off the street is going to qualify because they lack the temperament and skills to help others.
Hey, my office has one of those (Score:2)
Of course, I'm married to her. But, yeah, helps keep morale up at the cost of a little distraction here and there.
Only for straight males? (Score:2)
Are they only hiring female cheerleaders, and only to help straight male programmers, and by "cheering" they mean flaunting their body? I guess China doesn't have any laws that deal with sexuality or discrimination in the workplace...
OK then (Score:2)
Oh, the horror for the SJW crew! (Score:2)
Baubles instead of a decent country to live in (Score:2)
Bros Before Code (Score:2)
The best part of this story is a room full of socially awkward nerds being described as "stereotypical 'bro' culture."
Won't work long term (Score:2)
That sucks. (Score:3)
Finally, I'd be pissed at myself. Id suffer from cognitive dissonance knowing it was a cheap trick, but feeling giddy excitement with some pretty girl hanging around at my desk.
Submission/Firehose glitch or what? (Score:3)
Anyone have an idea of why submitting the same story yesterday morning (http://slashdot.org/submission/4917489/chinese-tech-startups-hiring-cheerleaders-for-programmers [slashdot.org]) doesn't seem to show even in the firehose and shows as still pending to me, but "HughPickens.com" (nothing promotional there...) with the same primary link and who seems to submit stories daily has already been included and posted?
Granted, you can certainly make an argument that he quoted more from the article in his post and say that's superior... I'm mostly trying to figure out why the story submission I made never even seemed to appear on the firehose and is still pending, while this duplicate of it seems to have passed it by. Is there a submission process glitch?
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Re:This is so wrong (Score:4, Informative)
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In that women-targeted porn known as soap operas and romance novels, yes. yes they are.
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Neither the original article is about porn nor was it my post. the original article is about women, who have to play a certain role in a company, which place them in the role of objects. It is of course also not a good idea to place other humans (like men) in a similar position. Or is your argument, because male get mistreated and objectified in porn, it is acceptable to do the same to women? This is strange logic. The correct resolution would be to conclude that objectifying humans is not a good idea and s
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Lots worse things have reduced women to being toys to men. Porn is a fantastic example, but there will be hell to pay should anyone suggest that women be offended at porn.
The rest of your rant is simply proof that we've got to the place of not being able to have any nice things because someone somewhere will be offended at anything other than bland monotony. That is, unless they are part of the "protected classes", which are allowed to offend everyone and anyone without any consequences.
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I was not taking about anyone being offended by something. I find it not helpful to let women play in a workplace context the implied role (as stated in the article). In addition, I find it problematic to put men in such context, as this is not a healthy relationship. It also says a lot about the management that they think that this measure results in a workplace improvement.
What I did not say is, that people have to live in monogamy relationships. That is totally up to them. However, reality tells me that
this is so natural (Score:2)
yes, real human societies are sexist. in general and as 90%+ true statement, men are different than women, and need different motivation than women. in asia they don't BS themselves about this. but you can imagine whatever you want, your society is losing to asia, and once it sinks low enough the BS known as feminism evaporates into thin air, and women will be FAR worse off here than if they were in asia where they could have a career
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The next one who did not understand my post. Very interesting.
Put yourself in the position of such programmer: The management employs some sexy girls to cheer you up. However, in reality you are only allowed to look at them. At one point the becomes frustrating. And it also tells you that you are inadequate to get a women on the "free market". This is not helping. It is like going to a hooker, in short it might help, but essentially you will feel empty afterwards.
On a side note: Asia is not in anyway overta
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>> I'm surprised we haven't seen this in America yet.
Why do you think your marketing department is the size it is? Not everyone there is "customer facing" ...
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Because you're basically saying that in order for the environment to be pleasurable and fun (who knows, maybe the environment as described isn't even working), everyone needs to be doing the same thing. And if they're not doing the same thing...whoa, inequality!
Now, I don't know if this is a social experiment, but it's interesting. It may go so far as intended to be removing work-based relationship taboos: it's socially acceptable to get your jollies from women who are there precisely to be the ones with
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you're confused, in asia they have women programmers. in asia they don't BS themselves about what motivates on gender vs. another though.
Here we do, but's its just a sham
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*sigh*
This is going to be an anecdote, so feel free to disregard as you will.
I'm a huge introvert, and have a pretty badly stunted ability to form relationships with people. Like, literally, "years of therapy, will never be the thing that most people call 'normal'" stunted.
Last year, I went to a church camp, where everyone was friendly and nice, and I knew absolutely no one. But if you were identified as "new", you got all the hugs you could have possibly wanted (no one did this without your permission).
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I've had the same experiences (though not church camp). Warmth and openness to conversation can very much bring me out of the introvert shell.
Also, it might be worth noting that certain keywords, like "commodify a person", "rape culture", or "patriarchy", generally indicate a strong resistance to logic and reasoning. Arguing with such a person is rarely a fruitful endeavour.
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I also noticed that there was a single "cheerleader" for a group of 5 or 6 programmers.
That's where the motivation is coming from. The males are all now in extreme competition with each other to impress her. They all know that it's just her job, but they all also know that they're all just human. Who's to say she might not just develop a special relationship with the best worker in the group?
In order to get the job at all she'd have to be fairly good looking, and almost certainly single and China already has a big gender gap.
This has nothing to do with sexism. It's a cold, calculated, mo