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Java Oracle Open Source Programming

Why Oracle Should Cede Control of Java SE (infoworld.com) 110

An anonymous reader quotes InfoWorld: Now that Oracle wants to turn over leadership of enterprise Java's (Java EE's) development to a still-unnamed open source foundation, might the same thing happen with the standard edition of Java (Java SE) that Oracle also controls? Such a move could produce substantial benefits... Oracle said it has no plans to make such a move. But the potential fruits of a such a move are undeniable.

For one, a loosening of Oracle's control could entice other contributors to Java to participate more... [W]ith the current Oracle-dominated setup, other companies and individuals could be reluctant to contribute a lot if they see it as benefiting a major software industry provider -- and possible rival -- like Oracle... Indeed, the 22-year-old language and platform could be given a whole new lease on life, if the open source community rises to the occasion and boosts participation...

Despite the potential to grow Java SE by ceding control, Oracle seems content to hold on to its place as the steward of JDK development. But that could change given the tempestuous relationship Oracle has with parts of the Java community. Oracle has been at loggerheads with the community over both Java SE and Java EE... Oracle may at some point decide it is easier to just cede control rather than having to keep soothing the ruffled feathers that keep occurring among its Java partners.

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Why Oracle Should Cede Control of Java SE

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  • by GodfatherofSoul ( 174979 ) on Saturday September 02, 2017 @08:16PM (#55130603)

    I think they acquired Sun (and Java as a result) as a dick move towards Google. If they had any inclination to do so, way back then would have been the opportune time. Doing so now would be seen as admitting defeat (as if the court loss wasn't a big enough statement).

    • I think they acquired Sun (and Java as a result) as a dick move towards Google.

      I think they acquired Sun because Oracle was the only thing that people used SPARC and Solaris for at the time.

      • by gtall ( 79522 )

        I'd second that. The conversation with Java probably went along the lines of:

        Oracle Lawyer: So this Java, what's it do?

        Sun Lawyer: It's great, you can write code once and run it on anything.

        OL: Why would I want to do that?

        SL: Because then all the software will be essentially controlled by you.

        OL: Oh....does it have any profit potential?

        SL: (looks at other Sun Lawyer and gives sneaky wink) Big Pontential, oh yes!!

  • decides to include the new open-source Java as a part of it's .NET platform just to piss in Oracle's face.
    • Re: (Score:2, Interesting)

      by sproketboy ( 608031 )

      They can't cause they are too shit for that. Java > .NET in every conceivable way. If you don't understand that then go home.

      • Re: (Score:2, Interesting)

        by Anonymous Coward

        Java > .NET in every conceivable way.

        Oh really? Take a look at the feature by feature comparison of C# and Java. C# supports both more and better features than Java and the .NET class library is richer in both breadth and depth. And where is Oracle in the cloud these days? The two biggest players right now are Amazon Web Services and Microsoft Azure. Google and Apple are both working on their cloud offerings, but they're still behind AWS and Azure. Oracle isn't even in the race. Oracle views the cloud as "pay us to run our software products fo

        • by DarkOx ( 621550 )

          Say what you want about Microsoft, but they never sued anybody for making compatible or interoperable implementations of .NET languages or class libraries

          I think that has more to do with Mono never becoming much more than a toy for most and possibly useful to a very narrow set of special cases by a handful of enterprises who were unlikely to pick a Microsoft technology if they had to pony up.

        • Oracle views the cloud as "pay us to run our software products for you on our servers"

          I think you give them too much credit to assume they view it as anything. Every single group I've ever come across using Oracle software was an NPO or a government agency who knew some really shady contractors. They get in the door to large corporations through handshake deals then corrupt every non-Oracle thing they touch into being incompatible with everything else, they're basically Microsoft for hipsters.

  • by Node.js and Angular for anything besides the odd query to a database here and there?
    • by Node.js and Angular for anything besides the odd query to a database here and there?

      Awwwwwww, the graphic designer has a technical opinion. Keep up the good work! Have an encouragement ribbon.

  • Paul Krill is a joke. Just look at his history.

  • Larry Ellison didn't get to where he is (one of the richest in the world) by giving shit away. Is there a tax deduction involved? Hidden agenda?
  • potential fruits? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Gravis Zero ( 934156 ) on Saturday September 02, 2017 @10:24PM (#55130829)

    But the potential fruits of a such a move are undeniable.

    How are these "potential fruits" going to help Oracle? I ask because that's the only thing Oracle actually cares about.

  • by gavron ( 1300111 ) on Saturday September 02, 2017 @10:26PM (#55130835)

    Public corporations tend to do things to benefit themselves. Oracle fought to get APIs covered by copyright -- and won. That's a step backward in the US software world in an amazing amount. Yes, the court didn't make Google pay because fair-use, but fair-user is judged on a case-by-case basis _at trial_. So going forward, because of Oracle's greed and unbending desire to control all of Java everything (and Android) all software developers in the US have this API pitfall to watch out for.

    Second, even if there is no direct benefit, there's no indirect benefit to Oracle to open-source Java (or anything). So long as they can extract complex licensing and other fees from everyone wanting to use Java (EE) or the JDK or the API... that's exactly how they work.

    Oracle wants to dominate The Market, All Markets, and Larry Ellison has an ego to rival anyone. Unfortunately people with large egos are unable to make decisions that benefit anyone other than themselves.

    E

    • APIs are creative products in a lasting form, and hence are copyrightable by pretty much all copyright law.

      Not even Larry Ellison argued that there are any restrictions to using a published API to write software that interfaces with the API. The Java APIs can be used to write implementations of the APIs or to be called by other software. At least US copyright law is very clear on this: copyright can't be used to stop people from doing something. Everyone in the case where Oracle sued Google agrees o

  • Leave it for dead (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Billly Gates ( 198444 ) on Sunday September 03, 2017 @01:03AM (#55131075) Journal

    Let it go. Java had it's day in the sun during the .com era (no pun intended). It failed after Sun struck out bigtime on what could have been and the biggest thing in quite some time. .NET is taking over large scale stuff, and newer node.js, angular, and even Python for the small to medium projects. Java is outdated and Sun and then Oracle left it out to rot by not making native compilers and obsessing over making it work with Solaris and forcing developers not to do win32 only. Meanwhile Python for some reason doesn't have this problem.

    It is legacy and a security risk and will never have a native look and feel and compiler. c# is what Java could have been and keeps getting innovations like Linq and generics (I might be outdated as I haven't touched Java in 10 years on generics). Let it die we have other newer things now.

    • by Anonymous Coward on Sunday September 03, 2017 @02:31AM (#55131159)

      Native look and feel? Java's place is on the server. It's fucking huge there and going nowhere. This is where real software runs and where 'newer' things are not valued unless they're so much better than what they're replacing that it's worth the effort, which it hardly ever is. Java replaced COBOL here. Nothing else is even on the horizon right now.

      • by Anonymous Coward

        Ssshhh, let them think it's dead. That way I can keep my prices up. They probably don't release the android apps they use everyday or the services they access are written in Java.

    • There is no alternative to Java.
      Native compilation is completely irrelevant as VMs have jit compilers.
      It wil probabaly be a decade or more than C++ has the tools and libraries Java has, based on LLVM.

      As most Java code is enterprise Java running oa backend, native lok and feel is irrlevant.
      It is overrated anyway, which you would know if you looked at a typical windows PC. Java running on it mostly looks native, and better than a legacy native app from one or two windows versions before. The ugliest applicati

      • It wil probabaly be a decade or more than C++ has the tools and libraries Java has, based on LLVM.

        Nobody seriously thinks that Java and C++ are competitors.

        • As soon as we have byte code morphing, augmentation, aspect oriented programming on LLVM based environments, they will be again.
          And I happy jump back to C++ when it has that, e.g. reflection, serialization etc.

          • Maybe in niche environments. For most software for which C++ is the language of choice, Java isn't a realistic option.

            This is a strict subset of all software, of course. My point is that Java and C++ don't play in the same spaces for the most part. Desktop apps are probably the only area of significant overlap.

            • Right now as the world is going, that is right.
              But there is nothing fundamentally wrong with using Java in *some* embedded environments, as car entertainment/radio, or use C++ in internet backends.
              C++ basically only lacks frameworks and because Java already has them, no one has the intention to build some.

              • C++ is like a straightedge razor, while Java is like scissors with rounded ends. C++ requires experienced people and Java really doesn't.

                • Both require experienced people.
                  In Java simple things are simpler than in C++, however as soon as you make software for a living there is lots of stuff to learn and know on the Java side as well, e.g. annotation based frameworks, dependency injection, aspect oriented programming etc. p.p.
                  I don't think that C++ is particular more complicated with modern language features (STL/boost etc.)

    • by tomhath ( 637240 )
      Other than the part about .Net I agree with what you said. But Java has a lot of momentum with companies like Oracle and IBM behind it, so it'll be around for a while as it becomes less and less relevant.
      • Other than the part about .Net I agree with what you said. But Java has a lot of momentum with companies like Oracle and IBM behind it, so it'll be around for a while as it becomes less and less relevant.

        Yeah for legacy. No new projects use it. COBOL is still big too and will never die. But my point is lets make it legacy as both COBOL and Java did not keep up and earned their spots

        • I have no idea what you mean by "no new projects". Java is massive in the enterprise world, and I've seen no indication that it is merely in maintenance mode. Being a decent Java programmer will keep you employed for many years to come. I realize it's very faddish to declare Java dead, or at least rotting, but it is an absurd claim not backed up by any actual evidence at all.

        • by tomhath ( 637240 )
          New projects continue use it if they're outsourced to big contractors like the ones I already mentioned (IBM, Accenture, Oracle, etc.) because they have legions of programmers who don't know anything else and massive investments in server side tools they charge absurd license fees on.
    • You're kidding right? .NET is a Windows ecosystem that marginally runs on Linux of late. There's a massive ecosystem of enterprise Java systems out there that Microsoft could only wish it would touch. And that's not counting Android.

      You're living in a fantasy if you think C# is actually competing with Java where Java is dominant.

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