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Programming IT

Does Switching Jobs Make You a Worse Programmer? (forrestbrazeal.com) 227

Slashdot reader theodp shares some thoughts from Virginia-based cloud architect Forrest Brazeal, who believes that switching jobs or teams makes you -- at least temporarily -- a worse programmer: "When you do take a new job," Brazeal writes, "everybody else will know things you don't know. You'll expend an enormous amount of time and mental energy just trying to keep up. This is usually called 'the learning curve'. The unstated assumption is that you must add new knowledge on top of the existing base of knowledge you brought from your previous job in order to succeed in the new environment.

"But that's not really what's happening. After all, some of your new coworkers have never worked at any other company. You have way more experience than they do. Why are they more effective than you right now? Because, for the moment, your old experience doesn't matter. You don't just need to add knowledge; you need to replace a wide body of experiences that became irrelevant when you turned in your notice at the old job. To put it another way: if you visualize your entire career arc as one giant learning curve, the places where you change jobs are marked by switchbacks."

He concludes, "I'm not saying you shouldn't switch jobs. Just remember that you can't expect to be the same person in the new cubicle. Your value is only partly based on your own knowledge and ingenuity. It's also wrapped up in the connections you've made inside your team: your ability to help others, their shared understanding of your strengths and weaknesses, and who knows what else. You will have to figure out new paths of communication in the new organization, build new backlogs of code references pertaining to your new projects, and find new mentors who can help you continue to grow. You will have to become a different programmer.

"There is no guarantee you will be a better one."

This seems counter-intuitive to me -- but what do Slashdot's readers think? Does switching jobs make you a worse programmer?
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Does Switching Jobs Make You a Worse Programmer?

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  • Struggle is growth (Score:5, Insightful)

    by SuperKendall ( 25149 ) on Sunday November 25, 2018 @06:53PM (#57698538)

    The view he gives is nuanced, and it's not a bad idea to stick with jobs for a least a few years before switching...

    But he also lays out the part where you don't know as much as the people in the company even though you have experience, and labels that as slowing down or a switchback.

    I think those are some of the most valuable times for true growth. You are learning how other companies work. You are learning how other people approach code. Maybe you agree with some of that, maybe you do not, but in any case that kind of temporary struggle is tremendously valuable over time as the more experience you gain with different environments means in the future a new place or system may look something like what you have seen before, or you may be able to draw on what several companies did in a combination that leads to a new and better approach than any one of the companies...

    So while you may not want to switch jobs too often, keep in mind the flip side of that advice - don't get stuck in just one company too long, especially early in a career!

    • by Hognoxious ( 631665 ) on Sunday November 25, 2018 @07:01PM (#57698570) Homepage Journal

      I've heard it said that 10 years in one company is more like two years of experience repeated five times over. It's similar to diminishing returns.

      And what one place does well another is utterly shite at, and vice versa.

      Finally, what the fucking hell is a cloud architect when it's at home, which I suspect it usually is?

      • by SuperKendall ( 25149 ) on Sunday November 25, 2018 @07:08PM (#57698588)

        I've heard it said that 10 years in one company is more like two years of experience repeated five times over.

        That is a great way to put it.

        My preferred length of time is three years - two years of learning to really understanding the domain and the related systems, then a year of great productivity as you really hum because you are no longer dealing with much internal overhead in getting work done.

        Much longer than that and you start to grow tired of repetition, or the little things that were always problems start to annoy you more and more. For whatever reason, productivity drops again...

        That's probably the thing to really look out for, be self aware of how you feel you are doing in your job. That can be the signal as to when you might want to start looking for something new, if you notice that your own performance starting to decline for any reason.

        • by Anonymous Coward

          Believe it or not, some people actually enjoy repetition and monotony, doing the same thing over and over again, and find the novel makes them anxious.

        • by vux984 ( 928602 ) on Sunday November 25, 2018 @10:27PM (#57699358)

          And to me this is just sad.

          " two years of learning to really understanding the domain and the related systems, then a year of great productivity as you really hum because you are no longer dealing with much internal overhead in getting work done."

          So as the employer, that's a pretty shitty deal. I'd really like to hang onto a team who are really humming for longer than that. Who know how things work, who know where everything in the code is and how its organized, who've mastered processes, who actually understand the knowledge domain we're developing software to solve so the friction between requirements and implementation is much lower...

          "Much longer than that and you start to grow tired of repetition, or the little things that were always problems start to annoy you more and more."

          I think this is where we diverge. You want out to get away from this... I want to know why we can't fix this.

          FWIW I've never worked anywhere really big; i prefer smaller companies; because I like them more. They aren't as rigid, the work is really varied, everyone is wearing 2 or 3 hats.

          "That's probably the thing to really look out for, be self aware of how you feel you are doing in your job. That can be the signal as to when you might want to start looking for something new, if you notice that your own performance starting to decline for any reason."

          I agree with you here, but looking at it from the other side, as the employer -- they should be looking to figure out how to resolve these 'problems'. Because losing good people after a few years in an industry where it takes a couple years to hit their stride is a huge waste.

          "I've heard it said that 10 years in one company is more like two years of experience repeated five times over."

          I think it can be. I don't think it has to be. It'll depend on the company and your role(s) in it.

          • Well, it varies based on if you're talking about some web blah with a narrow niche where they're only ever going to have one job for you to do, except for the one person who gets promoted to boss.

            Like in the song "The New Media Caste System" from the soundtrack to the book NetSlaves.

            But not all companies are like that.

          • So as the employer, that's a pretty shitty deal. I'd really like to hang onto a team who are really humming for longer than that.

            Yes, anyone would!

            But as I said, you cannot. Over time, performance starts to degrade. Maybe you can have a great team for four, five years. But somewhere in there the greatness fades and you just have an average team eventually. You said you want to fix it, but the fundamental thing you cannot fix is that people are people.

            I have been in great teams before, that worked so well

          • I'd really like to hang onto a team who are really humming for longer than that. Who know how things work, who know where everything in the code is and how its organized, who've mastered processes, who actually understand the knowledge domain we're developing software to solve so the friction between requirements and implementation is much lower...

            The good news is that you as the employer absolutely can do that.

            You need to figure out why people leave jobs, or more specifically, why those people you want to keep would leave their current job, and make sure those needs are satisfied. Look at the common reasons:

            • * People change jobs for promotions, since each level up the hierarchy has fewer openings, so make sure that people in a high-performing team all get promoted, even if that means promoting all of them as a unit.
            • * People change jobs for money
          • I've worked in a lot of big places. Politics and god complexes have been the two biggest problems, stagnation third.

            The underlying problem is the Peter Principle, followed by the notion of the MBA, followed by the messy psychology of geeks.

            • by laird ( 2705 )

              It depends on the culture. My current employer is fairly large and successful, but very much has a startup mentality in that they keep resources lean and focused on delivering value to customers. And they've got a very low turnover rate - lots of 10-15 year employees in the mix, so there's strong institutional knowledge.

              I've certainly been other places that weren't that way, of course, so I don't disagree with your generalization about big companies. But it doesn't always have to be that way. Some companies

          • by danlip ( 737336 )

            So as the employer, that's a pretty shitty deal.

            I agree, 3 years may be the best from the employee standpoint, but a bad deal from the employer. I'd be reluctant to hire someone who I see is changing jobs every 3 years. And I think about how it looks on my resume if I am changing jobs too often - that won't keep me in a really shitty job, but it does affect my actions in other circumstances. 5 years is a better average. Employers can keep me for even longer, especially if I am still learning a lot on the job and/or the money is great and the work environ

        • It should be maximum 6 months of learning curve followed by 2.5+ years of knocking it out of the park.
          • If code is designed correctly, there would be no learning curve at all. A given module would be covered by a specification and a comprehensive test system.

            But it isn't. The learning curve exists because you have to dig for answers.

          • by Malc ( 1751 )

            Depends on the domain. We develop SDKs based on hundreds of specs for thousands of customers in almost as many different domains, and we have to be compatible with third party implementations that aren't spec compliant. I'm still learning stuff every day after six years. There's so much I've forgotten even from the decade preceeding that at other companies in related fields, and then had to relearn to teach the current developers who never had any exposure to specific issues. Sometimes I toy with the id

      • Finally, what the fucking hell is a cloud architect when it's at home, which I suspect it usually is?

        A fisherman. Sometimes I even wear a floppy fishing hat while I type the client's name and project into the code generator.

        • My first thought was that it was some hipster fuckwad who's read ( or at least flipped through) Docker for Dummies.

          Your idea has merit, though.

      • Comment removed based on user account deletion
    • Does Switching Jobs Make You a Worse Programmer?

      No . . . it makes y'all better programmers!

      Your title: Struggle is growth . . . alt title:

      “What doesn't kill you makes y'all stronger” -- Friedrich Nietzsche

      Getting fresh blood and ideas in a project . . . or being the fresh blood . . . enables everyone to share, um, err, steal . . . ideas that work.

      Hey, programmers are the poster children of evolution . . . we'll gladly adopt and accept anything that makes our lives easier.

      Think of it like plantation slaves in the Old South of the USA . .

  • by Anonymous Coward on Sunday November 25, 2018 @06:55PM (#57698546)

    A person is not their job. Stop promoting that.

  • by 93 Escort Wagon ( 326346 ) on Sunday November 25, 2018 @06:57PM (#57698556)

    Does switching jobs make you a worse programmer? No.

    It’s true there are things existing team members know but you don’t, at least at first. But you are indeed adding experience and knowledge the other team doesn’t currently possess, regardless of this person’s premise. The author claims “that’s not really happening”, but provides no evidence to support his claim. I, on the other hand, have seen this infusion of new knowledge and ideas occur, first-hand, when we’ve added a new team member.

    • I was that new team member once.

      The knowledge I added was "subroutines" and a concept that I don't know the name of but it's along the lines of "if you have five programs that are 99% the same try having one with an IF/CASE statement in it somewhere".

      • by mandolin ( 7248 )

        Those both sound like specific instances of DRY [wikipedia.org]?

      • by Rande ( 255599 )

        Reminds of the time when I had to introduce the concept of 'iteration' instead of 5 pages of X1=0; X2=0; X3=0...

      • At a large corp - sounds like Seemens - I did a code review for a "senior dev" who did something like that. It was the same block of 8-to-10 lines copied five times with just the name of the target file changed in each block. I couldn't believe a "senior" developer could do something that brain-dead. Since he was a senior guy and I was just a contractor - he had a say in whether I stayed or not - I had to look past the shitty code and sign off on it. It wasn't ideal, but it wasn't "wrong" either. Techn
    • by rtb61 ( 674572 ) on Sunday November 25, 2018 @07:25PM (#57698660) Homepage

      Switching jobs, really insufficient information given ie switching projects, switching teams, switching employment, switching languages, switching programming styles and switching programming structures. So it depends upon how much is changing, the more change the more loss of productivity but it depends on the new working environment compared to the old one, how much change and how productive the old environment was and new project or existing project.

      The real question is whether a stable development team is more productive than a continually ad hoc team ie whether you keep staff together over the longer term with period of non-project productivity, they can do total quality management https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org] projects during that time (redoing programming structures, variable choices, code library maintenance and refinement, basically internal projects to improve coding outcomes) versus hiring and firing staff straight in line with project demands.

      This being the balance between higher productivity expected from a well oiled machined versus lower productivity from ad hoc team (constantly being dismantled and rebuilt dependent upon project demands) and how you balance between the two. For developing, maintaining and refining the coding library is very productive but somewhat intermittent upon demand and works well with retaining staff with low project load, as is reviewing coding structures, variable use, documentation, basically maintaining the coding environment.

    • by Jahta ( 1141213 )

      Does switching jobs make you a worse programmer? No.

      It’s true there are things existing team members know but you don’t, at least at first. But you are indeed adding experience and knowledge the other team doesn’t currently possess, regardless of this person’s premise. The author claims “that’s not really happening”, but provides no evidence to support his claim. I, on the other hand, have seen this infusion of new knowledge and ideas occur, first-hand, when we’ve added a new team member.

      In my experience, it really depends on the individual. I've seen a lot of contractors over the years who are simply "coders for hire" and seem to have no interest in broadening their skill sets to become well-rounded developers. They are happy to collect a decent daily rate for a few months and move on when (or before) their limitations become apparent.

      On the other hand I've known guys who have chosen various different jobs specifically to grow their skills in different areas, and become better professional

    • Comment removed based on user account deletion
    • It seems counterintuitive only if you misunderstood the idea. It makes you temporarily worse on the basis of speed. By any other metric, you get better.

      I'm registering my disdain for ignorant horseshit like this. We should not be reading headlines that are not supported by the article content, and we should not be reading garbage that misrepresents reality.

  • Switching jobs actually makes you a better programmer. You'll work with different tech (or at least a different approach). Yes, you'll be learning things but it's not about being the best-of-the-best at your new company day 1. If you're new job has a good culture, they'll facilitate you committing to code very early on. Institutional knowledge isn't the same as industry knowledge. It may feel like you don't know squat but trust me, you'll be better off for it. The trick is to know when to leave... If y
  • No
    When you decide to change jobs it is on you to ramp up and be of value to your new employer. Over all it should make you better at what you do. If you are the type that handles change well and to your advantage.
    My son-in-law (in IT like me) changed jobs every 1-2 years after graduation. Then he found the right spot and has stayed there. BTW I stayed out of his choices.

    Just my 2 cents ;)
  • by quietwalker ( 969769 ) <pdughi@gmail.com> on Sunday November 25, 2018 @07:19PM (#57698640)

    Domain knowledge is knowledge that you would only have by working at that job or at that company. You can't train for it, you can't 'know it', you can only gain it over time.

    Now, you might be able to trace code a bit faster (except that bit where they muck with the class loader and the config is in a database) or fix a build (except they're using a homebrew system), or maybe even optimize a SQL request (except they require that you go through sprocs and have an actual DBA sign off on it), but you're going to be going slow at first, even if you could technically do everyone else's job at the same time.

    That's just how it is. That's also why you should pretty much apply for anything: there's a good chance you could do it - and what's on your resume or their job request is really only 20% of what the job really is.

    • by jrumney ( 197329 )

      or maybe even optimize a SQL request (except they require that you go through sprocs and have an actual DBA sign off on it)

      Actually that highlights one of the areas where I've found being new at a company improves productivity. Ignorance of the productivity-killing procedures like this can make you shine in front of your boss, until they are alerted about the procedure bypasses and send you for corrective training on internal procedures.

      • The problem with bypassing procedures like that is that you also have a higher risk of your change causing an issue, a disruption, or an outright problem. And if you work in a safety critical environment (say a power plant) or an environment subject to severe regulatory requirements (like a pharma plant) that would be bad.

        I've worked in the space industry on ground station equipment, I've worked for a nuclear fuel processing plant, and currently work in a pharma plant. Other places were much looser, as you

  • by NotSoHeavyD3 ( 1400425 ) on Sunday November 25, 2018 @07:21PM (#57698650) Journal
    Is find what the "in" group is and make sure you're part of it. If in your first 6 months you realize you're not part of the in group for any reason you might as well leave because it's actually easier to get into the in group as an outside hire than as a member of the company who is currently in the out group.(You're now typecast.) For those that do know the in group gets listened to, gets the good things to work on, and if they ask for something they'll actually get it.
    • by phantomfive ( 622387 ) on Sunday November 25, 2018 @08:11PM (#57698834) Journal

      For those that do know the in group gets listened to,

      I try to avoid companies like this. I prefer it when people get listened to based on the quality of their arguments. And don't tell me that doesn't happen because I know it does.

      • by Tablizer ( 95088 )

        I prefer it when people get listened to based on the quality of their arguments.

        Unfortunately, office politics often overpowers this. One example among many:

        Me: "We don't need microservices for the vast majority of our applications because the command structure of this organization is very hierarchical and don't prefer sharing services across groups over the longer term. If you tie them to another group, they'll get angry over dependencies that otherwise wouldn't be there. [Examples given relevant to the o

  • sometimes teams and organizations get stale. The new individual if they are sharp and the environment is open can reinvigorate and re focus a team. Or everyone can hate on the new individual and torpedo things. I that case the smart will jump ship.
  • by jythie ( 914043 ) on Sunday November 25, 2018 @07:32PM (#57698682)
    Well, no. All the person seems to be describing is the ramping up process, which anyone who has switched jobs or had new coworkers will recognize. It does not say anything about how good or bad of a programmer they are, only that you can expect them to take time to get up to speed as they learn the new system/team/norms/whatever.

    Any team or position that you can hit the ground running and immediately be up to your full capacity is probably a job to be avoided since the needs of it are probably quite modest and mind numbing.

    And this doesn't just apply to programming. Pretty much any skilled work, esp work with an existing body of knowledge specific to the institution is going to have this, down from the lowliest intern or janitor to the c suite executives.
  • No (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Greyfox ( 87712 ) on Sunday November 25, 2018 @07:42PM (#57698730) Homepage Journal
    It does impact your productivity as you learn your way around a new code base, but it doesn't make you a worse programmer. Your employer expects there to be a ramp-up period, so that's not a problem. If you switch positions because you think there's some cool stuff to learn in the new position, it'll generally make you a better programmer over time. Plus, it's really the only way to get a decent raise in the industry.
  • After an expected ramp-up period of a week or two (which he seems to be treating as some sort of super big deal crisis), you will be a better programmer by virtue of knowing all the good things from your last jobs and the good things from your new job. I've stepped up my game with ever job change I've had, usually because I have to learn a bunch of completely new skills and concepts.

    Unless you're plain incompetent or you've accepted a job someplace that's completely broken or an enterprisey graveyard you c

  • Of course whenever you go into something new there will be a learning curve. While the "worse programmer" aspect makes for a nice click-bait headline, that is only a small part of the learning curve. TFA borders upon absurdity.
  • Comment removed (Score:5, Interesting)

    by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Sunday November 25, 2018 @08:21PM (#57698872)
    Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • by Vrallis ( 33290 ) on Sunday November 25, 2018 @08:21PM (#57698874) Homepage

    Coming from a complex environment where it takes a year or more to just begin to understand the product (service with massive amounts of customizations for many high-profile customers), this definitely makes you less employable. It definitely feels to me like we're going to start seeing a backlash soon against all of the millenials who flip jobs every year. As more products get more complex it takes longer for a new employee to truly become competent at their job. Turnover is extremely disruptive. And this is in an environment with good wages and benefits.

    Personally if I had two equally experienced candidates, one with ten positions in ten years, and one with two in ten years I'd take the latter. I want someone who will stick around long enough to become effective and pay off all of the time it took to reach that point.

    (And finding a support person? That's even harder. We need 2-3 years minimum to get a support person to competency, and that's if we poach someone from an employer who already knows our products some from a user perspective.)

  • If the software developers in the new job are working like they're on a production line, then there's probably some truth to those claims. However, such jobs are easily sent overseas where labour is cheaper. There's real tangible value to new team members who have experience from elsewhere, i.e. different strategies, perspectives, & knowledge, that can get whole teams to be more productive in both the shorter & longer term. Citation? Yeah, way back from 1973: Granovetter, M. S. (1973). The Strength
  • by Average ( 648 ) on Sunday November 25, 2018 @10:21PM (#57699330)

    On the flip side, a stable of long-term plodding programmers can sure make for stale code. I can think of several examples still today. Software that is the standard thing in some low-revenue boring niche field. Developed and sold by some little five-person family-run shop in some suburb. Software that is just patch upon patch upon patch on some 1996-era Turbo Pascal or MFC C++. With some client-server bit bodged in here. With some 'export to HTML' kludge over here as a "web publishing platform". Software that desperately calls out for getting replaced by something newer, but the install base, data lock-in, and niche market combine to keep things just getting more and more outdated.

    You could be a software developer with twenty years in one of those shops. With twenty years of writing 1996 code. And you'd be basically dogshiat on the job market.

  • ... I think this can be generalized to say that you'll be a worse <fill-in-the-blank> for a time when you switch jobs, for the same reasons described in the intro.

  • by FrozenGeek ( 1219968 ) on Sunday November 25, 2018 @11:43PM (#57699554)
    In my 30, or so, years working as a programmer, I have changed jobs several times. And when I say changed jobs, I mean different employers in different industries using a different tech stack, so really changed. Switching jobs makes you worse in the sense that your corporate knowledge - local source code, local program design, local tools, contacts, etc - is now worthless and you need to replace it. That takes time to learn, and learning it will slow down your productivity. Switching jobs makes you better in that you learn a new tech stack, new techniques, new concepts (design, how to work with clients, how to think about problems), etc. Whether you switch jobs is somewhat irrelevant. In our industry, you need to be learning new stuff. If you cannot sit down at the end of a year and list a couple of significant things you learned over the past year, you've got problems. The industry is ALWAYS changing. You cannot keep up with everything, but if you don't grow, you will become obsolete. the good news is that it's never been easier to learn new stuff.
    • by Luthair ( 847766 )

      I think you're over estimating it the amount of change that really happens. Sure, if you're working with an emerging language (e.g. javascript today, ruby 10-years ago) then there is a lot of flux in libraries and tools, however if you're working with a mature language (Java, C++, etc) then the world is pretty stable.

  • Your salary will go up with each change
    You will meet new people and expand your professional network
    You will see new ways of doing things
    You will see a lot of broken stuff too
    You will take on new challenges
    You will learn new technologies

    Or stay put and become an underpaid fossil in no time, afraid to change jobs for fear of looking incompetent or of having your incompetence discovered.
    And then when your company goes under you or lays you off will have no network to reach out to and no experience at intervie

    • by Torvac ( 691504 )
      pretty much this.
      NEVER stay just because you are loyal to a company/team.
      also if you changed jobs and still feel like a nubie after 1 year because the project is shit or undocumented or a complicated mess of historically made errors, consider leaving.
  • You may be temporarily less productive than you might have been at your last job, but no more so than anyone else would be that is starting a new job in a new place with different people.

    But that doesn't make you a worse programmer, it makes you better. You certainly don't become any *less* competent at what you can do, but even being great at your last job doesn't automatically mean you will instantly know everything there is to know about someplace completely new. Learning new things takes time, and

  • To get really good at something, you need 10.000 hours practice.

  • by jd ( 1658 )

    You interface with the outside world. That interface conveys many things, but unless you suffer brain damage, it cannot convey negative ability.

    If what is meant is lower efficacy, that's different. Efficacy is always reduced with context switches.

  • Its a job market, if you're not swapping jobs, you aren't using the market and you're getting underpaid.
    It's not about productivity, it not about scratching the itch its about maximising your return.
    I like to solve problems and build things. There are lots of organisations which value my skills and that keeps me happy. While I've found that I enjoy working in research organisations more than accounting firms they've both paid me well in the time that I was there.
    Your bosses will try to pay you as little as

  • isn't this about true for any type of job switching?
    there is always some work-in time required before you're performing at maximum capacity.

  • ... that you learn something new.

    I am in a constant state of having to learn something new in my current job. Chef, docker, new versions of Java, Angular ... constant change. Or new tools are constantly added by people who 'we used this over at my last company and it solved all of our problems. Even our farts smelled like licorice'. Even our own staff are constantly creating new 'standards' because some tool we use doesn't make their farts smell like licorice and they are too lazy or not creative enough to

  • Many other comments make the case that more diverse experience will make you better. And they are damn right.

    However, what will really make you better a better programmer is having to fix your own code 15 years after you made it while having to keep it backwards compatible. The best programmers have that experience and write code knowing that they probably will be held responsible for it years in the future.

    That's in sharp contrast with what some others here say; they have obtained a lot of experience by sw

  • Learning new things doesn't make you a worse programmer. If they relate to programming, it makes you a better programmer.

    If after a job switch, it becomes necessary to learn new things, because your new employer does things differently, then you may be less effective for a while, but you're not a worse programmer. You're in the process of getting even better.

  • Programming is a whole life encompassing art. Not a cog in the machine productivity defined labor.

  • Stupid, shallow question.
  • In a sense. The first year or two at a new gig is mostly learning how things work at THIS company/role/department/etc. It's learning how the last set of people did it. This isn't just for programmers, it is for all tech jobs and likely all jobs. Yeah, it's a learning curve alright, how to fill out your timecard, who to talk to in order to get a vm, crap that in absolutely no way makes you better at anything other than being able to function.

    Given the way companies think right now you don't really have much

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