VW Says China To Become Global Software Development Hub For Autonomous Tech (reuters.com) 186
Volkswagen will use Chinese software developers to help design a global autonomous vehicle architecture thanks to the prevalence of qualified programmers which carmakers are struggling to hire elsewhere, senior executives said on Monday. Reuters reports: As carmakers scramble to develop advanced driver assistance systems and autonomous driving functions, carmakers are struggling to find qualified engineers to build the software algorithms needed to teach cars the right reflexes. Volkswagen has 4,000 engineers in China, with an average age of 29, spread over five research and development sites and a rapidly growing number of software engineers. "In a short period from now they will be able to do 15 to 20 million lines of programming code on an annual basis," Volkswagen China's passenger cars chief Stephan Woellenstein said in Shanghai on Monday.
The prevalence of software engineers, combined with the country's willingness to roll out the infrastructure for connected and self-driving cars, will make China one of the first markets in which autonomous cars gain widespread acceptance, VW managers said. As a result, Chinese suppliers will help Volkswagen Group to design a global autonomous vehicle architecture, he said.
The prevalence of software engineers, combined with the country's willingness to roll out the infrastructure for connected and self-driving cars, will make China one of the first markets in which autonomous cars gain widespread acceptance, VW managers said. As a result, Chinese suppliers will help Volkswagen Group to design a global autonomous vehicle architecture, he said.
Don't think I'd trust the software (Score:4, Insightful)
Don't think I'd trust the software developed under a sweatshop-like 12 hours a day 6 days a week regime, sorry VW. Software made in the us by foremost experts in the field is bad enough to run into firetrucks as it is, this shit will explode when you press the engine start button.
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" thanks to the prevalence of qualified programmers which carmakers are struggling to hire elsewhere" is the key phrase.
Re:Don't think I'd trust the software (Score:5, Insightful)
" thanks to the prevalence of qualified programmers which carmakers are struggling to hire elsewhere" is the key phrase.
This shortage is thanks to a long sequence of governments in the US and Europe who have put in tireless work over several decades to disassemble their education systems and stultify their populations so that they'll cheer when the money previously spent on educating them is spent to tax breaks to finance stock buybacks and CEO bonuses. You get what you vote for, especially if you allow yourself to be distracted from what really matters by non issues like immigrant caravans/flotillas supposedly coming to destroy your christian conservative civilisation. Meanwhile the Chinese put tons of money into universities and incentives for young people to go there. Is anybody surprised that their method worked better than the asinine political circus we are currently obsessing over at the expense of everything else except tax breaks for the fabulously rich?
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While I agree with what you said, I do not have a high opinion of the Chinese education system. My experience is that the product that system produces is big on replication, not education. I wouldn't trust software produced by that lot.
Re:Don't think I'd trust the software (Score:4, Informative)
I work at a chinese owned car company, a big one, but we don't yet have a sales presence in the US.
we have thousands in china and a few hundred in the bay area.
I often can see the difference in approach and code quality between east and west.
all I will say is: code and design from china mostly sucks. they are STILL windows-based (in thoughts and machinery) and while e-cars are all going qnx and linux (and android), the windows people still are the majority of the so-called programmers over there.
they can throw 10x as many people at a project and it will still suck.
there is a REASON software is done here in the US, for complex projects. china simply cannot do it; if they could, they would not ALL have local bay area offices where the real design is done.
the bay area engineers are more skilled and experienced, but being a chinese owned company, we are a little too, uhm, 'thrifty' and this is going to hurt us, long-term.
we also don't pay for performance and we don't reward top performers. the china way is: burn people out and hope they leave on their own, soon.
this is NO WAY to do business. but sadly, its how it is, right now.
(perhaps hold off buying chinese-made cars for a while, is my advice)
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While I agree with what you said, I do not have a high opinion of the Chinese education system. My experience is that the product that system produces is big on replication, not education. I wouldn't trust software produced by that lot.
It is just a different (extreme) way of teaching education. In western countries, schools tend to teach kids to be more expressive of what they think. These kids will try to broad their knowledge but at the same time rarely want to dig very deep in a certain area. Furthermore, teachers are more like friends to them due to the laws and their parents' involvements, so some kids have no respect to their teachers at all.
On the other hand, Asian countries (not only China) tend to teach their kids to dig deep int
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from what I've read, S Korea is the exception. They are starting to get a large problem of teens/young adults that are so addicted to their online lives they forget to do things like -- feed their baby for 6 days. Sadly I am starting to see some of those coming out of highschool going down this path as well. Throwing their lives away just to jack into the matrix.
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Oh please. China has a higher population than North America and Europe combined.
When you're looking for cheap programmers it's hardly a fucking surprise that you'll find some there.
Chinese put tons of money into universities and incentives for young people to go there
..and yet despite the higher population China has less than 4/5 the number of students at university that America and the EU have, even without counting the rest of North America and Europe.
Is anybody surprised that their method worked better than the asinine political circus we are currently obsessing over at the expense of everything else except tax breaks for the fabulously rich?
Yes, I'm completely fucking amazed you claim their method worked better.
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Oh please. China has a higher population than North America and Europe combined.
When you're looking for cheap programmers it's hardly a fucking surprise that you'll find some there.
Chinese put tons of money into universities and incentives for young people to go there
..and yet despite the higher population China has less than 4/5 the number of students at university that America and the EU have, even without counting the rest of North America and Europe.
Is anybody surprised that their method worked better than the asinine political circus we are currently obsessing over at the expense of everything else except tax breaks for the fabulously rich?
Yes, I'm completely fucking amazed you claim their method worked better.
They have an adequate supply of qualified developers and engineers, the EU and US in particular don't. That speaks louder than any words and has so far resulted in Huawei managing to research their way to owning 1529 "standard-essential" 5G patents, the most of any company, and Xiaomi, Huawei, Oppo, and VIVO lead the list after Samsung and Apple on the list over the biggest smartphone manufacturers. Underestimating your opponent is the mother of all defeats.
P.S. Inserting a colloquial term for sexual in
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They have an adequate supply of qualified developers and engineers, the EU and US in particular don't
That's got fuck all to do with investment in education and far more to do with Europe and the US outsourcing much of their IT to low cost locations.
Like China.
Underestimating your opponent is the mother of all defeats.
Being pragmatic and realistic about China's position in the world doesn't require underestimating them. It's actually possible to acknowledge their progress without attacking the education system in other countries.
You should try it.
PS: There's nowt wrong w' fucking
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They have an adequate supply of qualified developers and engineers, the EU and US in particular don't
That's got fuck all to do with investment in education and far more to do with Europe and the US outsourcing much of their IT to low cost locations.
Like China.
Underestimating your opponent is the mother of all defeats.
Being pragmatic and realistic about China's position in the world doesn't require underestimating them. It's actually possible to acknowledge their progress without attacking the education system in other countries.
You should try it.
PS: There's nowt wrong w' fucking
Automation has killed way more jobs than outsourcing has. In a world where automation is everywhere you need a high level of education in your workforce. The cleaning lady of the future is probably going to be a women running a fleet of cleaning robots with an tablet computer. You don't get there with a workforce trained in schools where the teachers are massively underpaid and there isn't even enough money to buy textbooks or put doors on the toilets. People were 'pragmatic' and 'realistic' about China (r
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Give the Chinese another 20 years of reform and a sensible education policy and they'll surpass the US on every level.
China basically already has surpassed the US on every level. They only lack carriers.
I don't agree with the argument that their education system is not good. But I have no deep insights. China sends many students to study in Europe. My town Karlsruhe is full with Chinese students.
Yes full! You are in the queue for the cashier in a supermarket and you always see one or ore in your queue.
P.S.
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Holy Jesus' butt-plug you're a cock.
Not good enough, now go to the 1st reformed church of the AR-15 and repeat that sentence.
1 - automation creates jobs as well as replacing them
Yes, but those jobs also require a higher level of worker education so your case that defunding education has no effect has now acquired yet another dent.
2 - outsourcing to low cost countries has replaced jobs irrespective of automation
Quoting the financial Times (yuk, I feel dirty): https://www.ft.com/content/dec... [ft.com] The US did indeed lose about 5.6m manufacturing jobs between 2000 and 2010. But according to a study by the Center for Business and Economic Research at Ball State University, 85 per cen
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so your case that defunding education has no effect
I'm arguing against your unhinged foaming about stock buybacks and politics you disagree with. I've made no comments about defunding education.
But since you do want to go there: The US spend more per child on education than any other country on the planet.
Total US spending on education is down a little from its peak but so were birth rates 15 years ago. I'll help you out here: Fewer children means less total cost.
The lesson here is that if you want to be a player in the automated economy you better have a well educated workforce.
The IT industry (which is the one we're discussing here) is the educated workforce that's actua
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so your case that defunding education has no effect
I'm arguing against your unhinged foaming about stock buybacks and politics you disagree with. I've made no comments about defunding education.
But since you do want to go there: The US spend more per child on education than any other country on the planet.
Total US spending on education is down a little from its peak but so were birth rates 15 years ago. I'll help you out here: Fewer children means less total cost.
Actually the US is behind Luxembourg in that comparison so you are wrong. Also, spending per student varies wildly by state in the US so depending on where you are you get either good or completely shitty education. If you are in New York and ruled by a bunch of hippies socialists you get a pretty good education, if you are in Kansas and ruled by a bunch of Republicans you get a shitty education because they de-funded the school system. Amazingly Kansas isn't even at the bottom of the list of states that sp
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Ok, looks like there's conflicting data. In 2014 Switzerland and Luxembourg had higher per-student spend than the US.
I can't be arsed tracking down whether the US is 1st or 4th on the list for 2018, so instead lets compare China and the US.
China's total spend is less than the US total spend, despite having many more students. China spends less on education than the US.
Chinese numbers: http://en.moe.gov.cn/News/Top_... [moe.gov.cn]
US numbers: https://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/... [ed.gov]
Oh look, I can provide references. You're stil
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Ok, looks like there's conflicting data. In 2014 Switzerland and Luxembourg had higher per-student spend than the US.
I can't be arsed tracking down whether the US is 1st or 4th on the list for 2018, so instead lets compare China and the US.
China's total spend is less than the US total spend, despite having many more students. China spends less on education than the US.
Chinese numbers: http://en.moe.gov.cn/News/Top_... [moe.gov.cn] US numbers: https://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/... [ed.gov]
Oh look, I can provide references. You're still talking shit. Now fuck off.
Well if you are using your arse to do your research small wonder you can't get your facts right. China contains way more people than the US and the US has for-profit schools so I'm not exactly surprised that the Chinese get more quality graduates out of each dollar they spend. And, no, I am disinclined to acquiesce to our request that I sexual intercourse off you arrogant arse buggering bloody cunt of a toilet-mouthed muppet (that was just for you since you don't seem to understand sentences that do not c
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o I'm not exactly surprised that the Chinese get more quality graduates out of each dollar they spend
Ok, I'm out. That's just blatant trolling.
I am disinclined to acquiesce to our request
Here's how many fucks I give: 0
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o I'm not exactly surprised that the Chinese get more quality graduates out of each dollar they spend
Ok, I'm out. That's just blatant trolling.
Ditto and you are a rather poor troll, probably because you do lots for research with your arse.
I am disinclined to acquiesce to our request
Here's how many fucks I give: 0
Poor you, I get laid all the time.
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But since you do want to go there: The US spend more per child on education than any other country on the planet.
I doubt that is true. Even if it is, why are there schools that have no working equipment, overworked teachers with oversized classes?
Obviously the amount of money spent is no indication of quality of education.
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China's total spend is less than the US total spend, despite having many more students. China spends less on education than the US. ... which is pretty stupid :P
Only if you count it in dollars
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The fool was bitching about inadequate investment, so I merely highlighted that the US invests heavily in education.
How wisely that money is spent is a more complex question. I do recall teachers bitching throughout my entire life, so it's hard to give the current crop much credence. Easier to upset them by pointing out how much time they get off each summer.
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Oh please. China has a higher population than North America and Europe combined.
When you're looking for cheap programmers it's hardly a fucking surprise that you'll find some there.
...
Nor has China destroyed their education system by replacing achievement with "progressive" intersectional indoctrination.
Next time you see jobs you could do go to China, remember to place a lot of the blame on those "progressive" Feelz Studies Departments that replaced useful degree fields and destroyed the value of your education.
We'll have to agree to disagree then. I blame for profit schools, the expense of education, truing student loans into a debt slavery scheme and a right wing political culture that glorifies ignorance.
Schools are not the problem (Score:1)
US schools have long been a destination for international students. Those students don't come here because our universities stink.
I have a CS degree and have been involved in IT/Technology for over 20 years. During that 20 years, IT jobs have become far less desirable than they used to be. Long hours and the fear of being replaced by foreign labor has made a new generation of kids look elsewhere for career paths.
During my time in school, anyone with a brain went into STEM. Now that I have kids, I see th
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You forgot to add political correctness in education. We don’t wanna hurt any feelings so we strive for mediocrity that way people don’t feel bad when somebody else does exemplary. Everybody gets a fucking metal for merely showing up. We no longer have contest to decide a winner, unless it’s sports. Some schools are even giving out the perfect attendance award even if the kid missed a day or two for a medical appointment or something along those lines. When you water down your reward s
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This shortage is thanks to a long sequence of governments in the US and Europe who have put in tireless work over several decades to disassemble their education systems
Not in the UK.
During the last Labour government a lot of money was put into education, and results improved quite a lot. The problem is that tech is very broad and while there are plenty of Javascript developers there are not many with more specialist skills, and companies are unwilling to train them.
If you have those skills you can see that there definitely is a shortage - high salaries, recruiting overseas, all the usual signs... Except for training. Companies aren't willing to take someone and invest in
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Not many True Americans left after close to 500 years of immigrants doing genocide on them.
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Yet the actual data says the number of computer science graduates in the US is higher than its ever been. (Though it did dip for a decade following the dot-com bubble).
https://docs.google.com/spread... [google.com]
Source: NCES
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I should caution that throwing money at the problem doesn't solve it. Yes spending is needed, but spending wisely is needed more. I got really tired of reading /. articles about decade ago where high schools in california were installing $5k cappuccino machines for the spoiled little snowflakes. Buying a $5k cappuccino machine is not a wise expense. China has a cultural problem they are struggling to overcome. On my last cruise I met, at one of those veteran meet-and-greets, a couple that became professors
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Buying a $5k cappuccino machine is not a wise expense.
So you would rather buy every 2 years one for $500?
Your interesting calculation of teachers pay clearly shows: they are under paid. No idea why you disagree.
6h teaching per day is still an +8h day, or do you think they do classes "unprepared", never correct tests etc.?
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their salary for only working 187 days per year is significantly higher than average for my area. Thats why I gave a comparison. To pay a teacher with only 10yrs experience $59k, only work 187 days (ok add at MOST 15 more days) instead of the 250 work days out of the year the average person works. The University here puts out want ads for jobs. They want someone with a Masters degree in Mechanical Engineering and they are only willing to pay $58k a year; and that job expects, at a minimum, a 60hr week commi
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Your salary is probably not ok, too.
But hacking on teachers, is probably the worst thing to do.
60h per week are illegal in Europe, illegal as in jail time for the boss. Especially if a worker has an accident to or from work. The boss is basically already in jail in such a case.
Less than 28 (depending of country) paid holiday are illegal, too.
You are not fixing your society by letting teachers work more in your eyes. In most eyes they are overworked, regardless how you see it.
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here in the US there have been nurses who have been sued for malpractice and thrown under the bus by the hospital for making a mistake after being made to work back-to-back 12hr shifts. Another thing about vacation time here, is something called PTO (paid time off) and they give you a bank of days (sometimes 16) where both vacation and sick time is deducted from. If your sick more than 5 or 6 days in a year that can really trash your vacation time.
They just recently passed a law for overime compensation fo
Re: Don't think I'd trust the software (Score:2)
especially if you allow yourself to be distracted from what really matters by non issues like immigrant caravans/flotillas supposedly coming to destroy your christian conservative civilisation.
I like your projection: totally original; not at all derived from echo-chamber talking points...
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Tax breaks? In Europe? Please.
Re:Don't think I'd trust the software (Score:5, Interesting)
Very well said.
The whole entire anti-education agenda of these right wing populists just pisses me off. My great great grandfather was a serf, a cottager. He made sure his son got educated as a carpenter. My great grandfather decided that the way to an even better life was to educate his sons and daughters so he taught them to read by himself. My grandfather became a sailor, his sisters all got good positions that allowed them to live a better life. My grandparents also educated all of their kids to the best of their financial ability. That is why I could go to University and get a CS degree. I recommend people watch the below clip because this is where we have ended up:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]
This is not just an American story, it's just worse there than it is in many other places. Every singe one of those people are going somewhere else to work where they'll be better paid and have an actual budget to get their job done. If you can move to China and get paid 3 times a US teacher's wage teaching Chinese high school students English in preparation for their university studies and a career as a highly skilled worker something is seriously wrong. Meanwhile the US is still busy arguing over asinine crap like whether the 'Kansas experiment', where they completely de-funded all of their schools in a quest for small government, was actually a good idea that was not given long enough to work out. Just watching that debate you begin to understand what the problem is. Being uneducated is nothing to be ashamed of, it is something you should strive to fix, not celebrate.
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My great great grandfather was a serf, a cottager.
Perhaps alternate phrasing next time?
https://www.urbandictionary.co... [urbandictionary.com]
Re:Don't think I'd trust the software (Score:5, Funny)
My great great grandfather was a serf, a cottager.
Perhaps alternate phrasing next time? https://www.urbandictionary.co... [urbandictionary.com]
Cottager is one of the levels of serfdom in feudal societies, I can't help it that your mind is a sewer.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
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It sounds like a grade of cheese to me. Between cottage and cottagest.
That is because cottage cheese is literally what it says on the tin. Cottage cheese is cheese curds and whey. It was eaten by poor people for the most part. In really hard times they'd strain out the whey, dissolve bones in the whey and eat it like a soup. I tasted that dish once and never felt any desire to do so again.
Re:Don't think I'd trust the software (Score:4, Funny)
Your great great grandfather was a faggot!
I doubt it, at the time people were executed for homosexuality and it was a small community, he lived to be a very old man.
Incidentally, back then people were also heavily fined (or flogged if they could not pay) for begin a potty mouth like you.
Re:Don't think I'd trust the software (Score:5, Insightful)
You are delusional if you think this is a right wing problem. The vast majority of the kids I see going to private schools come from right wing families. I’m not even talking about super rich elite private schools. I am sure that they could find better ways to spend that $15,000 per year on tuition if they thought they had a choice. They are doing it so that their children have a decent shot at succeeding later in life. Three of the four largest and most successful private schools in my city (not even tier 3 in size) are religious in some sort of charter. Lexington Catholic, Lexington Christian Academy, Christ the King, etc. their academic program is far from substandard. They have the highest percentage of high school graduates qualifying for and in rolling into college.
So I do not think they are anti-education. Some do not like the anti-religious aspect of school, but a vast majority are doing it because of the substandard education that’s being offered up in public school that’s now deemed “good enough“. My daughter goes to public school. She’s finishing up her sophomore year. For the last four years I have been telling her that her writing skills are shit. I am constantly complaining about the quality of homework she hands him. Sometime she answers questions and doesn’t even use a complete sentence. Of course, she would argue back that the teacher said she doesn’t have to. Thinking I’m being lied to I reach out and ask the teachers. Guess what? She didn’t fucking have to! I am far from religious, but I’m starting to develop an anti-public education attitude based on these shitty reduced standards. In the early 80s, when I was in junior high, they didn’t call it middle school back then, you are not allowed to turn in any work that did not contain complete sentences. I do believe that the damn Scan-tron Machines that instantly graded those fill in the circle multiple choice test were the beginning of the stupidity. Sure it made it easy for the teachers, but recognizing the correct answer when told is not the same thing is actually knowing the correct answer.
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You are delusional if you think this is a right wing problem. The vast majority of the kids I see going to private schools come from right wing families. I’m not even talking about super rich elite private schools. I am sure that they could find better ways to spend that $15,000 per year on tuition if they thought they had a choice. They are doing it so that their children have a decent shot at succeeding later in life. Three of the four largest and most successful private schools in my city (not even tier 3 in size) are religious in some sort of charter. Lexington Catholic, Lexington Christian Academy, Christ the King, etc. their academic program is far from substandard. They have the highest percentage of high school graduates qualifying for and in rolling into college.
So I do not think they are anti-education. Some do not like the anti-religious aspect of school, but a vast majority are doing it because of the substandard education that’s being offered up in public school that’s now deemed “good enough“. My daughter goes to public school. She’s finishing up her sophomore year. For the last four years I have been telling her that her writing skills are shit. I am constantly complaining about the quality of homework she hands him. Sometime she answers questions and doesn’t even use a complete sentence. Of course, she would argue back that the teacher said she doesn’t have to. Thinking I’m being lied to I reach out and ask the teachers. Guess what? She didn’t fucking have to! I am far from religious, but I’m starting to develop an anti-public education attitude based on these shitty reduced standards. In the early 80s, when I was in junior high, they didn’t call it middle school back then, you are not allowed to turn in any work that did not contain complete sentences. I do believe that the damn Scan-tron Machines that instantly graded those fill in the circle multiple choice test were the beginning of the stupidity. Sure it made it easy for the teachers, but recognizing the correct answer when told is not the same thing is actually knowing the correct answer.
The right-wing elite is not completely anti-education, they just encourage it in their political followers. It is the right-wing that energetically courts the evangelical movement that agitates against provable scientific facts like evolution. I have never seen a modern mainstream left wing movement in the US or EU declare a multi front war on science. The most impressive thing that the right wing has accomplished in the last 30 years is to convince about a third of America's working poor that their best fr
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I think we are engaged on a couple of threads here now btw. Im pretty anti-religion, so I can see how the evolution topic can seem like a war on science. It is, and it isnt. It goes back to Neitzsche's remark about convictions and ignoring a truth that conflicts with a conviction. Nothing about evolution is contradictory to anything in the bible. Evolution does not, by itself, disprove god. The only thing it does is imply that the world did not get made in just 6 earth days, and organisms did not manifest o
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Just finishing Karen Armstrong's The History of G-d. Your argument about G-d being forced to follow the physical laws will get shot full of bullet holes by any competent theologian. G-d is, to put it bluntly, necessarily outside of time and space lest S/He become just another Being. Mind you, I think most of the theologians' "theories" (if you could call them that) are merely existential gas, but so is your argument.
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i guess that depends on if god lives inside or outside this universe, or if he is the universe itself. If he lives outside the universe then sure. But if he lives inside it, or is the universe, then he is bound to live by the rules he created. Only an imperfect person born into sin would see it as a right to get to break your own laws. A perfect being is simply incapable. The term sin literally means to miss the mark, ie imperfect. For if god were to break his own rules, he would be guilty of sin, something
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After all, they did ex-communicate Galileo for suggesting the earth revolved around the sun. Burned him alive in fact. .
Galileo died in Arcetri, near Florence, Italy, on January 8, 1642, after suffering from a fever and heart palpitations. I don't believe he was excommunicated, though he was placed under house arrest.
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https://www.nytimes.com/1992/1... [nytimes.com]
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https://www.nytimes.com/1992/1... [nytimes.com]
Yeah, sure. I was aware. I was pointing out that he was not "burned alive", and like Hitler, was not excommunicated. The NYTimes article does imply that being burned at the stake was one possible outcome, but does not mention excommunication at all.
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umm did you read the whole article? it said had he not recanted he would have been burned alive. I think it would be interesting, if we ever get time travel, to go back and see these events first hand. I am thinking it got a lot closer than current history wants to admit. Like maybe stuck on a pile of wood and doused with oil, with the guy with the torch coming, kind of close. At one time it was taught he did get burned. So is it revisionist history or was the first version false? I cant say. I certainly ca
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However, to refute your statement that you have never seen a multi-front war on science from the left is disingenuous. There have been /. articles about that very topic. Perhaps your definition of science and mine differ. To me the scientific process, peer review, the challenges that arise from your conclusion, are all science. Without that, its not science, its simply statements. There was a time, and in some parts it still exists, a broad left-wing cultural belief that it is OK to use money, power, and influence to push one scientific viewpoint over another. I am speaking of climate debate....
Climatology was a soft science to begin with because there were too many moving parts that people barely understood in isolation let alone as part of a giant ecosystem. It stopped being science entirely when people who are not scientists turned it into a completely political type debate and the scientists, who also have lives outside of science and have their own political views, allowed it to happen. They themselves now sponsor censorship of any disagreement. What happens when the same behavior starts happening to other forms of science? We opened the door and justified it this one time as being OK. Thats called precedence and the impact is often damning. What happens if Nutrition follows this example and starts banning anything that suggests low-carb is the way to go? I mean how often does nutrition have to go back to the drawing board and start all over? Do you know how many times Eggs have been on both sides of the good/bad debate in my lifetime? I've lost count now. Eggs aren't 'settled science' and they are frigging EGGS! Not something as complex with as many moving parts as how the climate equilibrium equation might shift by altering just one of many of its variables. Its imperative to continue the critisims, its the only way to keep going back and getting it right. And STOP altering the goddamn records. That makes it impossible to come to a clearer understanding later on.
We are adding about 120 ppm of greenhouse gasses per degree the temperature rises and that is not accounting for feedback loops. We know for a fact what happened the last time the amount of greenhouse gasses in the air reached 2000 ppm, it's called the Great Permian Extinction and it killed off 96% of all life in the oceans and every terrestrial life form over 5 kg. If we get a rise of 4 degrees over pre industrial levels we get ~800 ppm of green house gases, if the worst case of 8 degrees over the pre indu
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It isn't a Right or Left issue. It is an issue with Power not wanting to be challenged. If we must remain in a two dimensional world, then reworded: This is a bi-partisan issue.
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> Say the right wing is anti-education
> Gets examples of the right wing not being anti-education
"Well of course those specific guys aren't!!! But everyone else is!!! I'm not wrong! I'm not wrong!"
Are you really unable to understand the concept of hypocrisy? ... As in: some right-wingnut spends money to get their idiot kids into a university and then goes to a Trump rally and rages against the educated. That's hypocrisy. Let me help you educate yourself on hypocrisy: https://www.google.com/search?... [google.com]
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I'm pretty sure the term 'intellectual elite' has nothing to do with education or a condemnation of education. I hope you haven't somehow derived that people at trump rallys are anti-education. The term implies something entirely different. Elitism is a new way to saying looking down your nose at someone (I used to hear that expression a lot as a child, I rarely hear it now). The expression draws the image of someone with their nose up in the air because they are too good to be associating with the likes of
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I'm pretty sure the term 'intellectual elite' has nothing to do with education or a condemnation of education. I hope you haven't somehow derived that people at trump rallys are anti-education. The term implies something entirely different. Elitism is a new way to saying looking down your nose at someone (I used to hear that expression a lot as a child, I rarely hear it now). The expression draws the image of someone with their nose up in the air because they are too good to be associating with the likes of you. It dates back to aristocracy. There are many ways someone can think they are better than you
1) race - some people think they belong to a superior race and that trait makes them better than others
2) money - nothing divides the world into clasism or caste based society more so than money. Merely having money causes those who came by it without working for it to often acquire a sense of superiority. The paid staff that wait on your every beckon call feeds this and amplifies it.
3) religion - the belief in whether you burn in hell or not has caused many to feel that they are superior because they are among those that are 'right' and will be vindicated when those that picked 'wrong' are unmercifully punished for it.
4) Intelligence - people can begin to act like a complete douche when they think they are significantly smarter than some other person or group.
Intellectual Elite actually implies someone THINKS they are so much better than everyone else because they THINK they are so much smarter. They arent ACTUALLY smarter, the merely assume they are. Because anyone who does not agree with 100% of everything they say MUST be less intelligent and therefore not worthy to vote because they are just too stupid to have that right/responsibility. Its not a condemnation of education. Its a condemnation of Elitism. The reality is that most of the people that fall into this critisism are actually NOT overly intellectual in nature. For the most part they actually do not do independent thought very well at all. They rely heavily on GroupThink and will tow the GroupThink line on every topic despite how poor their understanding of it actually is. Nothing could exemplify how dangerous GroupThink is better than those youtube videos where some guy goes around campus and interviews students. They will take some hot political topic and then read some quotes and claim Trump said them. Then these Intellectual Elite get on their soap box and talk about how bad trump is for saying that etc etc. Then the interviewer lets them know that those were actually statements by hillary, or barack, etc. Until that moment they were SURE... so SURE they were right and they were so much smarter than everyone else. Its elitism and thats what that derogatory term actually means. Its not intelligence if all you can do is parrot someone else's opinion. Anyone can memorize an encyclopedia. Pascals Law: A pressure applied to the surface of an enclosed fluid at rest, will be transmitted equally, and undiminished, throughout the fluid and to the walls of its container. I had to memorize that in nuclear power school. But until you actually understand it, and understand it so well you see it in everything fluid-dynamics, it is just words. Reciting them did not make me intellectual, it merely got me an A.
The term 'intellectual elite' only has nothing to do with education or a condemnation of education at a Trump rally. Everywhere else the word intellectual describes an intelligent, learned person who engages in critical thinking, research, and reflection about society, proposes solutions for its normative problems and gains authority as a public figure. Somebody who values quantifiable facts over emotionally triggered knee-jerk reactions. Whatever they think, when Trump supporters start agitating against ev
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" In the early 80s, when I was in junior high, they didnâ(TM)t call it middle school back then"
Those are different things. Junior high is 7th and 8th, middle School also includes 6th.
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The vast majority of the kids I see going to private schools come from right wing families.
Right, the ones who can afford it are just anti-free-education, and push the anti-intellectual angle to get the ones who can't afford it to be the same.
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Fuck you very much.
1.) I have mod points but both your excellent posts are at 5.
2.) I can't comment and mod.
3.) I am stealing your remarks in a plagiaristic grab because I could not have said it better.
4.) I will be taking full credit because that's the kind of weenie I am.
Well said.
(Score:6, Interesting)
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@Freischutz, I'm pretty sure the populists in your country have little in common with conservatives in the US, connecting the two is a non-sequitur. Don't make that mistake like so many of the ignorant, angry masses. In the US, conservatives generally support school choice programs to allow children to get out of underperforming schools, charter schools which bring STEM education to underserved urban populations, and accountability for teachers and curricula that underperform. Liberals, on the other hand, support whatever teachers' unions deem to be in their best interests; want to insert Art studies into the STEM- further siphoning away resources from a curriculum that would give us top-shelf coders, engineers, and scientists; and support teaching revisionist history so as not to offend or make any ethnic group uncomfortable. Can you imagine if, say in Europe, they decided to never cover Napoleon, Hitler or Stalin in school because it made people "uncomfortable"? How long would it be before the world made those mistakes again? How many more hours per week should each student put into social pseudo-science classes, knowing they will come at the expense of math, science and technology since unions will not allow for the expansion of the school day or year? How do we force underperforming educators out of critical roles to give new, better-equipped STEM teachers a proper role and a livable wage when union-backed tenure arrangements prohibit chronic underperformers from being fired? Thanks for playing, please do come back again sometime.
I think there is a bit of semantic hijacking that has gone on here. Conservatives used to mean rational people who believed climate change is happening and that spending money on education, that providing people with health insurance is a good thing and that going to war with science over evolution was akin to being a flat-earther. At some point the word 'conservative' got hijacked in the US by a bunch of far right lunatics. I draw no parallels between the people calling themselves 'conservative' in the US
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my first run-in with the words conservative vs liberal had nothing to do with anything other than government spending. A conservative would not spend money on 'research' to learn if chimpanzees can become addicted to nicotine or if primates get depressed after masturbating 3 times a week. A liberal actually did spend money on both those studies. Money that could be used, instead, on lowering the cost of healthcare or lowering the cost of childcare for lower income earners through some sort of subsidy. It is
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As official Mar a Lago security, I'd like to see if you have any thumb drives I can please plug into official Secret Service biznezz, ya? The codeword is Drumpftards.
Aren't you way too busy chasing Chinese grannies and tossing the Donalds' golf balls out of sand pits?
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I'd never trust yank software developed under sweatshop-like 12 hours a day 6 days a week regime, with no universal healthcare or workers rights, sorry Boeing.
Also your "engineers" crashed that Mars orbiter because you couldn't tell inches in cm.
Re:Don't think I'd trust the software (Score:5, Insightful)
Don't think I'd trust the software developed under a sweatshop-like 12 hours a day 6 days a week regime, sorry VW.
Are you talking about China or a Silicon Valley startup?
Besides, that ship sales long ago. Geely and Tata software is already in millions of cars, many of them old Western brands that they bought up.
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Are we sure proper thought is being given to the bugs, in particular security on these?
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That's how crunch has worked since I can remember it. If that's your criteria for not trusting software, no major software package in existence can be trusted.
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Don't think I'd trust the software developed under a sweatshop-like 12 hours a day 6 days a week regime, sorry VW. Software made in the us by foremost experts in the field is bad enough to run into firetrucks as it is, this shit will explode when you press the engine start button.
That is what I was thinking. Lack of qualified developers, or lack of developers willing to sacrifice quality for cost and time?
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Have you looked into the working conditions of Silicon Valley?
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Rampant amateurism and all comments and debug statements are in Chinese.
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I think you need both. That insanely brilliant algorithm needs a shit-ton of scaffolding.
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My personal experience is exactly the opposite.
I have met good Indian programmers. They do actually exist. It's just bloody hard to find them.
That code will (Score:1)
Then for use in cars that China will export.
German brands are tolerated for the crypto keys to EU academic support.
Confucious say... (Score:1)
Beware chinaman bearing gifts. He clean out IP while you no looking.
Ya But... (Score:2)
Still counting lines of code? (Score:2, Insightful)
After all these years, nay, decades of writing software, after all the evidence to the fact that the number of lines of code have absolutely no positive correlation to the software's quality (on the contrary) they still use it as a metric. metric of what? their ability to hit the keyboard?
Re:Dry (Score:2)
Can't find devs? (Score:5, Informative)
I wonder why. Speaking as someone who keeps getting turned down for embedded dev jobs despite having PIC and arduino programming experience along with my 20+ years of system level C,C++ and x86 assembler programming, I suspect its the usual case of a company wanting high grade skills but only wanting to pay low grade wages.
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I wonder why. Speaking as someone who keeps getting turned down for embedded dev jobs despite having PIC and arduino programming experience along with my 20+ years of system level C,C++ and x86 assembler programming, I suspect its the usual case of a company wanting high grade skills but only wanting to pay low grade wages.
FYI, if you are applying for a serious embedded dev job NEVER say you have Arduino experience. To an embedded dev an Ardiuno is a hobbyist kit stuck on top of an Atmel AVR (which itself is a very dated chip now). My advice would be to get an STM32 dev kit and learn how to build a program for the platform and run a few peripherals (without the libraries). An embedded dev who hasn't dipped into the world of ARM Cortex by now is looking pretty dated these days, which is fine if you have huge amounts of experie
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8 bit is still huge and very well paid if you have real skills (not Arduino), because it's still unbeatable for some applications (low power being a big one).
ARM is often using an RTOS and the peripheral libraries so it's opened up to many more developers who can't handle hitting the hardware directly. Often ARM is selected because it makes the developers cheaper, and facilitates the use of contractors to write individual tasks.
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Might be worth taking Arduino off your CV and replacing it with AVR, and making sure you have some sample code showing you can do low level work. Unfortunately when trying to recruit embedded developers you get a lot of people who played with an Arduino and think they can do the job (not saying you can't), and it's got to the point where having it on your CV is a warning sign.
Also a lot of automotive stuff is ARM based and they will want experience of RTOS. FreeRTOS and CMSIS are popular. It sounds like you
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No one without a pointy head ever says "performant" with a straight face.
Let me translate from the German (Score:1)
Would neither disagree with that sentiment. (Score:2)
Rise of Chinese Engineering (Score:5, Interesting)
As an engineer this stuff makes me a bit concerned. I don't really see any reason why China is not going to take the bulk of the engineering jobs from western countries over the next ten years in the same way they took all the manufacturing jobs. I work a lot with Chinese suppliers. Over the last 10 years there has been a real shift. Sure you can still get your 'classic chinese experience' in Shenzhen, where you rock on up, expect to beat every supplier into the ground with cheap prices, then struggle with quality issues for the next 12 months. But if you go there and pay reasonable prices for stuff, then you get great service, great quality and good support. This part of the market seems to be growing rapidly over there.
The chinese understand quality as well as most western people. It is just that many companies only go to china for cost reasons, so the chinese attempt to meet those cost expectations by cutting corners. This shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. If you go to the cheapest car repair shop you should expect that it is more likely they will try to rip you off.
The trouble is that the Chinese have all the supply chain at the moment and this gives them a foot in the door of western companies. I know of a number of companies here in the UK where manufacturing was moved to china, and the chinese contractor offered to do the mech design on the company's next product for free. They did a good job and soon enough management was downsizing the engineering department and shipping that work offshore.
They can do good mech engineering now, and electronics design, so why does anyone believe they won't be able to do software as well? I think it is just a matter of time.
The problem for western countries is that their governments still believe they have some sort of inherent superiority; that just because they are 'developed' they will always be rich. So rather than taking china head on by investing in modern manufacturing and STEMS they invest in financial innovations that will apparently make us all rich despite producing no real value. It is a dangerous game, and in my opinion, at some point all this financial innovation will be show to be the fraud that it is, and the west will quickly discover that a bunch of engineers (or construction grunts for that matter) in a room is much more useful that a stadium full of lawyers when the real world infrastructure that supports western standards of living has fallen apart.
Realistically the best hope for the west is that China gets taken over by lawyers and bean counters as well. What a sad state of affairs.
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> Realistically the best hope for the west is that China gets taken over by lawyers and bean counters as well.
So you are saying there is nothing to worry about?
(And labor aint that cheap any more in China. And certainly for India, there are some very good S/W engineers, but they aint cheap. And the cheap ones are terrible.)
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For services China has some big issues. The timezone difference between China and Europe/America is one. Language and culture are another. Japanese companies often open local subsidiaries with local staff running them for that reason.
The company I work for uses an electronics designer in Germany. He flies over a couple of times a year for face-to-face discussions. He's very good, he responds to email fast, and we have a great working relationship. Doubtless we could get the same work done in China much chea
And in related news... (Score:4, Funny)
VW owners have been complaining that when they are in their car and make negative comments about various members of government, the vehicle abruptly changes course and drives them to the nearest police station while requesting intervention by the assigned political officer.
One thing missing (Score:2)
The prevalence of software engineers, combined with the country's willingness to roll out the infrastructure for connected and self-driving cars, will make China one of the first markets in which autonomous cars gain widespread acceptance, VW managers said.
Also, China's blatant disregard for individual well-being will help with the roll out. If a few people get killed during testing, no biggie.
Small wonder (Score:4, Insightful)
"thanks to the prevalence of qualified programmers which carmakers are struggling to hire elsewhere, "
VW's software developer were (are?) busy developing cheating software to get around the emission laws, thereby accepting willingly the death of additional thousands of people just for greed.
Over my dead body (Score:2)
China makes sense (Score:2)
It actually makes sense to develop these cars in China. It's not that there are more qualified software developers in China, more than say in India, the US, or Europe. Part of the reason is that the wages are lower, although not lower than in other countries. The main reason is that China will be the largest market for autonomous vehicles due to several reasons. There is a push to electrify cars, which means new a lot of new cars bought in the future. There are huge emerging classes of workers will hav
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Is that the worrying part? This has been reality of life for most people in the entire world outside Africa for quite a few years now, now that smartphones running Android have become ubiquitous.
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Yep. More than a thousand times as many fatal auto accidents so far this year** as nuclear power has killed in all of history....
** number of automobile fatalities estimated from last year's number. But last year's numbers would have hit that 1000x figure by the beginning of March, so it's a pretty safe bet....
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Human life in China is cheap, and there is lots of it too. So safety won't be a priority.