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Java Open Source Oracle

Java EE 'Goes All In' on Open Source with Jakarta EE 8 (zdnet.com) 54

Posted by EditorDavid from the EE-and-Eclipse dept.
An anonymous reader quotes ZDNet: While Sun open-sourced some of Java as long ago as November 2006, actually using Java in an open-source way was... troublesome. Just ask Google about Android and Java. But for Java in the enterprise things have changed. On September 10, The Eclipse Foundation announced the full open-source release of the Jakarta EE 8 Full Platform and Web Profile specifications and related Technology Compatibility Kits (TCKs).

This comes after Oracle let go of most of Java Enterprise Edition's (JEE) intellectual property. Oracle retains Java's trademarks though -- thus Java EE's naming convention has been changed to Jakarta EE. But for practical programming and production purposes Jakarta EE 8 is the next generation of enterprise Java.... Jakarta EE 8 also includes the same APIs and Javadoc using the same programming model Java developers have always used. The Jakarta EE 8 TCKs are based on and fully compatible with Java EE 8 TCKs. All of this means enterprise customers will be able to migrate to Jakarta EE 8 without any changes to Java EE 8 applications.

Eclipse hasn't been doing this in a vacuum. Fujitsu, IBM, Oracle, Payara, Red Hat, Tomitribe, and other members of what was once the Java community have been working on Jakarta EE... All of the Jakarta EE Working Group vendors intend to certify their Java EE 8 compatible implementations as Jakarta EE 8 compatible. In other words, Jakarta is the future for Java EE.
Oracle is now working on delivering a Java EE 8 and Jakarta EE 8 compatible implementation of their WebLogic Server.

The Eclipse Foundation says Jakarta EE 8's release "provides a new baseline for the evolution and innovation of enterprise Java technologies under an open, vendor-neutral, community-driven process."
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Java EE 'Goes All In' on Open Source with Jakarta EE 8 More

Java EE 'Goes All In' on Open Source with Jakarta EE 8

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  • Bullshit. (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Gravis Zero ( 934156 ) on Saturday September 14, 2019 @06:10PM (#59195018)

    The Eclipse Foundation says Jakarta EE 8's release "provides a new baseline for the evolution and innovation of enterprise Java technologies under an open, vendor-neutral, community-driven process."

    Suuure. It's not like Oracle tried to strong arm Google [wikipedia.org] for using the Java API or anything. I'm sure they are totally committed to open source now. /s

    What a load of shit. Just let Java die.

    • Before you do that... (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Somervillain ( 4719341 ) on Saturday September 14, 2019 @09:42PM (#59195458)
      ...you need a superior replacement. If you think JavaScript or Python are candidates, try maintaining software that has had 50 different contributors over 20 years. No one does business programming better than Java and the next best solution is sadly C#. The lack of standards, API stability, and even decent tools really hurts you 5 years after the initial author leaves...or having to rewrite your Python code to make it work with Python3...or even rebuilding after major OS updates. There's something amazing that most compiled Java libraries from 20 years ago work just as well on the latest JDK as they did when they were first written. You can't say that about libraries from most other languages.

      I am curious, do you have any professional programming experience? Have you ever had to maintain software that actually made money and kept working for more than 10 years?...because if so, I don't think you'd be so hard on Java and Java EE. They do many things wrong, but do a lot more right...much more so than any platform I've ever worked with.

      • the actual next thing used is c++ though for large customers on big iron with Unix/Linux/Mainframe, never seen C# used server side.

        • Re: (Score:3)

          by zifn4b ( 1040588 )

          the actual next thing used is c++ though for large customers on big iron with Unix/Linux/Mainframe, never seen C# used server side.

          I think you mean you've never seen it used server-side in a *nux environment right? Why does that matter? In a micro services architecture, you mix and match VM's running Windows, *nix, whatever. As long as they can communicate with each other. This is especially easy with cloud virtualization. I have worked at many companies even very large, publicly traded ones that are using an eco system like and in some cases supporting millions of concurrent users.

          Why even draw the comparison to mainframe usage?

          • No, you're talking low end things. The AS 400 is not a mainframe, that's a mid range computer for small and medium business, does not run mainframe OS nor can it do what mainframe does. It's not even on par with Unix big iron.

            Mainframes are the cheapest solution at large scale, that's why they're used. The hardware cost/maintenance is negligible for mainframe applications compared to the software and staff.

            You VM solution with mix of windows, linux and whatnot works because most VM has low load, it (VMW

          • You ignore the key and true point of the OP: the fact that language stability is required. I have actually seen code that is running processes at multi-billion dollar companies that is 30+ years old (COBOL). No, I'm not a COBOL programmer, and as much as you or anyone else might want to try to sound smarmy about it, it still works, delivered what was needed, and didn't have to be upgraded all the time (so was supremely cost effective for 30+ years). We did replace this code with a set of new systems in ord

            • Re: (Score:2)

              by zifn4b ( 1040588 )

              You ignore the key and true point of the OP: the fact that language stability is required. I have actually seen code that is running processes at multi-billion dollar companies that is 30+ years old (COBOL).

              That's not because non-COBOL languages are not stable. It's because of timing of the original platforms and that the extremely conservative industries you're referring to refuse to upgrade because 1) they're afraid and conservative and 2) it's really expensive. Eventually, they will be out-competed if they don't upgrade. Capital One is an example of a company that uses newer tech and they have a lot of customers and large market cap. You get a grip there buddy.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by zifn4b ( 1040588 )

        ...you need a superior replacement.

        Superior? You mean like a language that actually has a built-in package manager at the top level of the ecosystem? Let's see how many languages have that, oh PHP, Python, Ruby, C# (even Microsoft has nuget wtf?) and NodeJS. Java is a dinosaur and overly complex for no good reason. It didn't keep up with the times. Microsoft didn't either but it's lumbering along a little faster in the race. Meanwhile, other tech stacks are summarily beating it. Need I point out that Facebook supports 3 billion users

        • ...you need a superior replacement.

          Superior? You mean like a language that actually has a built-in package manager at the top level of the ecosystem?

          Maven was the dominant package manager before Node.js was a thing and it works a lot better than NPM. Also, none of this matters if you have to rewrite your code 10 years after you're done writing it. Ask anyone who wrote anything in Python2. Also, I inherited a node app that used puppeteer. So the author didn't write good unit tests. The app was flagged for using a lib version with a vulnerability. It took me 2 weeks to find all the places the library changed their API. In Java, the compiler finds i

      • Been using and teaching JavaEE but recently found myself using C# and while i can still miss some aspects of Java there are a bunch of features in C# that just makes code much less cumbersome (partials, elvis operator, structs).

        Regarding some other features i'm still on the fence though (f.ex. properties are language-level getter/setters that whilst feeling icky for an old asm/C/C++ programmer do reduce cruft vs your typical Java JPA bindings).

        As for a business eco-system i'd say it's a tie or even C# comin

      • They do many things wrong

        And even the things Java does wrong are being rectified over time in a manner that is backwards-compatible. Things from Kotlin and other JVM-based languages are making their way back to Java, and we're all benefiting from the rising tide.

    • .I'm sure they are totally committed to open source now. /s

      Oracle is most definitely not wanting to be open with Java. They see it as a property. But Oracle did buy Java for the whole Google lawsuit. Now that, that is widing down, Oracle isn't incredibly interested in Java. It's a pretty sleepy tech to them. However, Java isn't just Oracle. IBM has a butt-ton of chips in Java, followed up by RedHat. Both of them are very vested in seeing a more open Java. The Apache foundation is another player who comes at Java differently than Oracle or IBM+RedHat. They

      • The voice of reason

      • I'm no fan of Java, but I seriously doubt it will ever die within my lifetime.

        No significant programming language ever dies. New ones merely account for most of the new programs that have to be written.

        Cobol is, of course, the classic example. In 1990 I had occasion to find out how much Cobol was in use worldwide: Gartner said "over 100 billion lines". In 2005 I checked again, and it had become 200 billion lines.

        I am aware of Gartner's shortcomings, but that kind of thing is what they are good at. They have senior contacts in big organizations who are able to give them such confident

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by zifn4b ( 1040588 )

        I'm no fan of Java, but I seriously doubt it will ever die within my lifetime.

        It will... you have to remember the oldest programming languages were born in the 70's and how many of them are dead now? Maybe you're really old and in the case, you might be right. Java will definitely die within my lifetime based on the number of languages that have already died during my lifetime. Do any new projects use Smalltalk, Pascal, Fortran or COBOL? Nope.

      • Google put something out in good faith but did so with the intent to give middle fingers to license agreements the whole way down.

        They never should have had to license anything, because Java was supposed to be a standard. But that's not how Oracle saw it. You don't apologize for punching someone in the face if they're trying to stab you, do you? You punch that motherfucker again.

        Fuck Oracle sideways, upways, frontways, backways, and in all other ways.

        • They never should have had to license anything, because Java was supposed to be a standard.

          The thing is that, while many believed that, it shows they never read the agreement which since 1997 has indicated the requirements for independent implementations for the TCK. Yeah, fuck Oracle, but Google read the same agreement everyone else did. You don't buck the trend and then ask forgiveness later when it comes to cash cows. And then thing is that Google didn't originally plan to apologize for anything. Rules are rules and if you don't agree with the rules then either spend the time to properly c

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by zifn4b ( 1040588 )

      What a load of shit. Just let Java die.

      True dat. It's already dying [tiobe.com]. I don't know why its usage is even as high as it is. I don't see any newer companies using it. The fact is in 2002 Java popularity was 25%, today it's 16%. It even dipped down to 13% around 2017. Maybe OpenJDK made it more attractive for a time?

      We see several languages growing in popularity notably Python with a whopping 2.22% growth in popularity. I actually would have thought for server side languages perhaps JavaScript (a la NodeJS) and Ruby would have grown in popula

      • Why is it so hard to set up a Java environment with ant/maven/gradle

        Probably because you haven't done it for 15 years? It's gotten easier since then. Python's lack of typing makes many things hard that shouldn't be hard.

    • If you look at the meeting minutes [https://www.eclipse.org/org/foundation/boardminutes/2019_03_26_Minutes.pdf], Oracle wanted any Java tools from Eclipse, such as the IDE, to only ship with their or one of their licensees' JDK. OpenJDK, OpenJ9, Azul, etc all locked out. When everyone else on the committee failed to roll over for this, insisting on vendor neutrality, they refused to open the javax* classes, forcing the jakarta* renaming. Oracle couldn't figure out how to make money from Java, so they're ba

  • Java EE should go all in on kicking the bucket already. A technological abortion of truly epic proportions, creating unmaintainable software that doesn't work and wasting billions upon billions of dollars.

    • You have any examples of billions of dollar worth of Java software that does not work or is not maintainable?

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by Kjella ( 173770 )

        I think it depends on how you look at it... I mean there was billions of dollars of COBOL code that worked but eventually worked despite COBOL, not because of it. It's not like any programming code is actually "bad", it compiles to machine code and if you got it right you got it. For example someone at work got a lot of logic stuck in VB6 code, it does work. Until he retires next year and anyone needs to make a change to that code at least. That's really the discrepancy between work and code, if I do good w

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by zifn4b ( 1040588 )

          I think it depends on how you look at it... I mean there was billions of dollars of COBOL code that worked but eventually worked despite COBOL, not because of it. It's not like any programming code is actually "bad", it compiles to machine code and if you got it right you got it.

          Yeah because I can write a modern mobile UX with Reactive Design in ASM pragmatically right? That's the problem. Sure, you can theoretically write anything in any language/platform but there is the time investment required. Business needs to go to market to make money to pay you a paycheck. I guarantee you if you're writing a mobile app in ASM, you're going to get crushed in the market and then you won't be able to pay your bills. There is no use for abstract what if scenarios that aren't pragmatic.

      • He didn't say Java should go, he said java EE should go.
        Big difference.

        Application servers never really delivered. Much of the enterprise directed Java development going on today are standalone services hosted on modern virtualisation platforms, and all the better for it. They can or do get along just fine on Java Sane Edition.

    • You're clearly not in any important financial industry. Besides the COBOL mentioned in other slashdot article, the mainframes and other big iron run JAVA EE. For banking, trading, insurance, healthcare, Java EE is part of it.

      Skilled developers who maintain it make very good money.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by zifn4b ( 1040588 )

        You're clearly not in any important financial industry. Besides the COBOL mentioned in other slashdot article, the mainframes and other big iron run JAVA EE. For banking, trading, insurance, healthcare, Java EE is part of it.

        That's eventually going to come to an end in that industry vertical and healthcare because Risk Management is a much bigger thing now and older technology is getting identified as an increased risk of PII/PHI theft to name one thing. Things have changed a lot over the past 4-5 years. I used to work at a Healthcare company that was using PHP and it was being identified that way despite how long PHP has been around.

    • Hmm...half of all node.js applications I have heard of get rewritten in 5 years to a superior platform (from a long-term business maintainability standpoint)...same with Python. I remember 15 years ago when everyone wanted to rewrite everything in Ruby and now all those apps are rewritten into some other language. While it is rare for software to ever be delivered on time and on budget, I don't see that as being unique to Java or worse on that platform. Any productivity gains you thought you got by writi

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by melted ( 227442 )

        Yeah, our purpose in life should be to make the lives of "overseas contributors" easier.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by zifn4b ( 1040588 )

          Yeah, our purpose in life should be to make the lives of "overseas contributors" easier.

          Well, that's what Tim Cook supports anyway. :)

        • Yeah, our purpose in life should be to make the lives of "overseas contributors" easier.

          Your purpose in life can be whatever you want...your purpose in employment is to satisfy your employer.

          Overseas contributors ranges from expensive places like Israel, where a lot of our security code to moderate cost places like Bangalore (we don't hire the cheap guys) to London and Krakow as well as our offices in NYC, Cambridge, and Silicon Valley.

          If you can fit your team in a minivan and you know they're never going to switch jobs for the lifetime of the app, use whatever you want. If you're maki

      • Re:Wasted money is universal. (Score:4, Interesting)

        by zifn4b ( 1040588 ) on Sunday September 15, 2019 @08:22AM (#59196232)

        Hmm...half of all node.js applications I have heard of get rewritten in 5 years to a superior platform (from a long-term business maintainability standpoint)...same with Python.

        Citation please? I've worked at several Fortune 500 companies that are using NodeJS with no plans to rewrite. Granted you have to consider that NodeJS has only been around for what 8 years and remarkably gains are being made. I can't see why you would want to rewrite a NodeJS express service in a cloud/micro-service architecture unless you really don't know how to write NodeJS applications well. It's robust. It's secure, anti-forgery tokens and all that jazz. You can do any kind of authentication you want. The only limitation as far as I know, is the developer's ability to work with it.

    • Java EE should go all in on kicking the bucket already. A technological abortion of truly epic proportions, creating unmaintainable software that doesn't work and wasting billions upon billions of dollars.

      Ah, but can you name any software development language and toolset of equivalent power that would be better?

      People keep asking for the Moon - and then when they are given it, they complain that it is too big, too heavy, and too round.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by sad_ ( 7868 )

      Have you actually ever used it or programmed with it?
      It is actually quite nice.

  • We just switched away from Oracle JDK to openJDK due to their licensing changes. I'm sure they are trying to line up the EE customers into the same moat.

  • What are the licensing terms?

    The Jackarta EE web does not give many clues (https://jakarta.ee/about/). Is it a specification and certification program or/and is it an actual software ready to use in business deployments?

  • Cue the uninformed "Java is dead" trolling in 5,4. (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Somervillain ( 4719341 ) on Saturday September 14, 2019 @09:25PM (#59195430)
    Having a long career in Java EE, it is far superior to any framework I've worked with, especially node.js. The Slashdot trolls may be too ill-informed to understand why and it doesn't have the flash and buzz as many other platforms, but like Linux, it's here to stay and the backbone of every system that matters. Everybody who is anybody (corporation-wise) uses Java extensively on the server-side to some degree. It's not the only game in town and it has a lot to learn from other offerings, but not as much as they have to learn from it.

    When your work doesn't matter and your team is small enough to fit in a minivan, you can use whatever technology suits your idiosyncrasies. When software has to last decades and deal with constantly changing teams of dynamic size, you then understand why Java best practices are what they are. It's verbose and seemingly unnecessary at first, but once you inherit someone's code who left years ago, you appreciate them. Once you have an app that has been in production for 10-20 years, you are very glad it wasn't written in JavaScript or Python.



    When you code for fun, do whatever you like. When you earn a living doing this and someone is investing a lot of money into your work, Java is the best choices, hence why it is the top choice.

    • Comment removed (Score:5, Interesting)

      by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Saturday September 14, 2019 @09:39PM (#59195452)
      Comment removed based on user account deletion

    • Re:Cue the uninformed "Java is dead" trolling in 5 (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Dutch Gun ( 899105 ) on Saturday September 14, 2019 @10:33PM (#59195530)

      A lot of people seem to fail to understand that you can't make blanket statements about any particular programming language without talking about where or how it's intended to be used. Or, they simply are unable to comprehend that not everyone does the same sort of work they do, and might use a different language.

      For back-end business software, Java is (still apparently) king. For web / front-end programming, Javascript. For videogames, C++ dominates the industry. Need a general-purpose toolbox language? Maybe Python. Security-focused, high-performance applications? Rust. Need wide-scale compatibility? Perhaps C. And on and on... Each language has strengths and weaknesses, and tends to dominate in specific fields or niches for a reason.

      This is why those "language ranking" articles are interesting enough for what they are, but really say more about which industries or types of programming are currently most prolific, rather than any significant statement about any two given languages in relation to each other.

    • Forget the issue of whether Java EE is good, there is an inherent problem in using anything that Oracle is likely to cause problems with.

      • Oracle tried to insist on the spec only being usable with their JDK or one from their licensees. Eclipse rightly said this would break vendor neutrality and jeopardize their non-profit status. Oracle then refused to open the javax* space for Jakarta, forcing the renaming plan. https://www.eclipse.org/org/fo... [eclipse.org]
    • +100
  • We switched from full blown Java EE application servers to Microprofile which takes subset of Java EE specs and adds a few of it's own. It is really good stuff. Need a REST API? Include a JAX-RS, JPA and CDI dependency and deploy to docker. Full Java EE spec is bloated but you only need to include what you actually need and the spec is pretty solid for 95% of use cases, you really just get into trouble if you are doing some extraordinary stuff. I use PHP Laravel in my spare time for hobby projects and what

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