Code.org Taps No-Code Tableau To Make the Case For K-12 Programming Courses 62
theodp writes: "Computer science education is a necessity for all students," argues tech-backed nonprofit Code.org in its newly-published 2024 State of Computer Science Education (Understanding Our National Imperative) report. "Students of all identities and chosen career paths need quality computer science education to become informed citizens and confident creators of content and digital tools."
In the 200-page report, Code.org pays special attention to participation in "foundational computer science courses" in high school. "Across the country, 60% of public high schools offer at least one foundational computer science course," laments Code.org (curiously promoting a metric that ignores school size which nonetheless was embraced by Education Week and others).
"A course that teaches foundational computer science includes a minimum amount of time applying learned concepts through programming (at least 20 hours of programming/coding for grades 9-12 high schools)," Code.org explains in a separate 13-page Defining Foundational Computer Science document. Interestingly, Code.org argues that Data and Informatics courses -- in which "students may use Oracle WebDB, SQL, PL/SQL, SPSS, and SAS" to learn "the K-12 CS Framework concepts about data and analytics" -- do not count, because "the course content focuses on querying using a scripting language rather than creating programs [the IEEE's Top Programming Languages 2024 begs to differ]." Code.org similarly dissed the use of the Wolfram Language for broad educational use back in 2016.
With its insistence on the importance of kids taking Code.org-defined 'programming' courses in K-12 to promote computational thinking, it's probably no surprise to see that the data behind the 2024 State of Computer Science Education report was prepared using Python (the IEEE's top programming language) and presented to the public in a Jupyter notebook. Just kidding. Ironically, the data behind the 2024 State of Computer Science Education analysis is prepared and presented by Code.org in a no-code Tableau workbook.
In the 200-page report, Code.org pays special attention to participation in "foundational computer science courses" in high school. "Across the country, 60% of public high schools offer at least one foundational computer science course," laments Code.org (curiously promoting a metric that ignores school size which nonetheless was embraced by Education Week and others).
"A course that teaches foundational computer science includes a minimum amount of time applying learned concepts through programming (at least 20 hours of programming/coding for grades 9-12 high schools)," Code.org explains in a separate 13-page Defining Foundational Computer Science document. Interestingly, Code.org argues that Data and Informatics courses -- in which "students may use Oracle WebDB, SQL, PL/SQL, SPSS, and SAS" to learn "the K-12 CS Framework concepts about data and analytics" -- do not count, because "the course content focuses on querying using a scripting language rather than creating programs [the IEEE's Top Programming Languages 2024 begs to differ]." Code.org similarly dissed the use of the Wolfram Language for broad educational use back in 2016.
With its insistence on the importance of kids taking Code.org-defined 'programming' courses in K-12 to promote computational thinking, it's probably no surprise to see that the data behind the 2024 State of Computer Science Education report was prepared using Python (the IEEE's top programming language) and presented to the public in a Jupyter notebook. Just kidding. Ironically, the data behind the 2024 State of Computer Science Education analysis is prepared and presented by Code.org in a no-code Tableau workbook.
"20 GOTO HELL" (Score:2)
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What about "neither"? LLMs will _never_ code competently and with simple things they are still hit-or-miss. The same is true for most people. Teaching everybody "to code" is a colossal waste of time and effort and entirely stupid.
They don't have to code completely (Score:2)
And that's before we talk about all the process improvements and automation that's been going on. Not all in programming, a lot of it has been in general IT but those people who are content to work in a general IT career are now being forced to up their game or become homeless. A lot of them will wash out but a lot
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If an LLM increases a programmer's productivity by 20% the demand for programmers drops 20%
That sounds like people who build highways and claim that adding another lane will decrease traffic by some proportional amount. It doesn't, people just use the extra lane to drive more.
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That sounds like people who build highways and claim that adding another lane will decrease traffic by some proportional amount. It doesn't, people just use the extra lane to drive more.
It's worse than that. An extra lane can make travel times worse even with no increase in traffic.
This is known as Braess's Paradox [wikipedia.org].
It is not just an odd psychological effect but an actual physical phenomenon. You can even design a circuit that will carry less current when a new zero-resistance path is added.
Here's an example [quoracdn.net].
In the circuit, closing the red switch adds a new zero-resistance conductor, yet the total resistance of the circuit goes UP, and the current goes DOWN from 1.5 Amp to 1.0 Amp.
suggested headline correction (Score:2)
Code.org, Funded by Big Tech Companies, Lobbies for Government to Increase Labor Supply by Spending Tax Dollars
Backing out the generic questions:
- What are the important educational topics to require children to learn in public schools from ages 5 to 18?
- What is their ranking in most important to least important?
- What is their cost to teach from most expensive per student-hour to least expensive?
- What is their productivity and utility factor for society from highest to least?
- What is the equation to com
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Millions of students somehow got educated remotely, with no school buildings, less staff, less teachers, less cost during COVID
That's for a very loose definition of "educated". My daughter was in high school when Covid hit, and her junior year may as well have been cancelled. Everyone slept through their online classes or spent the time scrolling on their phones with their computers' cameras turned off. Science labs were nonexistent, or watered down so that they could be done with what could be found around the house. Everything from routine homework to large term-paper type projects were relaxed in size, scope, and firmness of due
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This is known as Braess's Paradox.
The paradox involves adding roads, not lanes to an existing road.
Compare 2 one-way roads intersecting (50% idle) versus a four-way stop (25% idle) Now observe 5 two-way roads intersecting. More roads equals more intersections equals more idle traffic. This is why limited access highways can carry 3x more cars per lane, per day than "surface roads".
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If an LLM increases a programmer's productivity by 20% the demand for programmers drops 20%.
This is the Lump of Labor Fallacy [wikipedia.org].
Every past productivity improvement has led to an increase in demand for programmers, which is an example of Jevons Paradox [wikipedia.org].
When demand drops price drops with it and when you're talking about programmers prices are wages.
Then why didn't wages collapse when compilers were invented?
And that's before we talk about all the process improvements and automation that's been going on.
We've been automating for 300 years, and during that time, our living standards have risen twenty-fold.
Economics is not zero-sum.
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"If an LLM increases a programmer's productivity by 20% the demand for programmers drops 20%."
You're assuming that the demand for programmers is static. That's a bad assumption. When something becomes cheaper--say, because it has become more productive--demand for it goes up. Oftentimes, people spend *more* on it because of the increase in demand. The price per unit of work decreases because of the increase in supply, but the money per worker increases because of the increase in demand.
"I never understa
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If an LLM increases a programmer's productivity by 20% ...
That is, so far, an unsubstantiated _hope_. From what I have seen, it may well _decrease_ coder productivity, in particular if you take into account that the beginners never learn or much more slowly learn to do intermediate stuff, because all the easy stuff gets done by LLMs.
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Counterpoint: many of the things we teach in school are a little beyond all students getting, and many will never be used by the students, but still have value in 2 forms.
1. A broad-based education teaching many different skills helps students determine what they are good at and enjoy. The fact that 95% of my high school algebra-2 classmates were never going to multiply another matrix in their life after that class doesn't mean it was wasted effort, because some students found they excelled at it and were
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Basketweaving and leatherworking have the ultimate problem of being outright defunct skills unless you want to make your money on the "hand made" upsell and charging 10-20x what those things cost when manufactured.
In some Chinese schools, along with English, Chinese, Science, and Math classes, they have "Factory class" where you learn to sit at a station doing simple jobs like soldering or stitching, which could be something beneficial here.
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Basketweaving and leatherworking have the ultimate problem of being outright defunct skills unless you want to make your money on the "hand made" upsell and charging 10-20x what those things cost when manufactured.
In some Chinese schools, along with English, Chinese, Science, and Math classes, they have "Factory class" where you learn to sit at a station doing simple jobs like soldering or stitching, which could be something beneficial here.
If they implemented that in the states it would turn into an unpaid internship. Have each student spend eight hours a day for a month working for a local business on the line. Make them cry. Teach them how much it sucks. That'll put the fear of being uneducated into 'em.
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If they implemented that in the states it would turn into an unpaid internship.
In China, it is a paid internship.
The students work in actual factories and are paid wages.
Apple got in trouble over this because one of its suppliers in China was using high school interns and working them overtime. The kids were happy to earn extra income, but nonetheless, it is illegal for the factories to give them overtime work.
My spouse is Chinese and she did her internship in a car factory, installing door handles.
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If they implemented that in the states it would turn into an unpaid internship.
In China, it is a paid internship.
The students work in actual factories and are paid wages.
Apple got in trouble over this because one of its suppliers in China was using high school interns and working them overtime. The kids were happy to earn extra income, but nonetheless, it is illegal for the factories to give them overtime work.
My spouse is Chinese and she did her internship in a car factory, installing door handles.
I honestly like the idea of having kids go through a real paid job situation before graduation. A lot of folks never know what actual work is like until they're stuck having to provide for themselves. I worked a farm for years during the summers before I was out of school, and did the odd after school job during the winters, but I saw a lot of my peers skipping every opportunity to work until they had to. It's a pretty rude awakening for some of them. It'd go at least a little way toward preparing people fo
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Indeed. Many Gen-Z grads are being fired just months after they are hired [yahoo.com] for poor work ethic, entitled behavior, and negative attitudes.
Spending a few weeks mopping factory floors might be a gentler introduction to the world of work.
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We had woodworking, sewing and cooking. I found them enjoyable and all still useful to me 40 years later. If I had had a choice between "art", "music" and, say, metalworking or baking later on, I know what I would have selected.
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When kids learn to "analyze the themes" of Catcher in the Rye ...
I read Catcher in the Rye in high school English class and learned a valuable lesson.
I learned that "literary experts" can tell people that garbage is great literature, and most people will accept that because they think it makes them look smart.
That lesson on groupthink can be generalized to many areas of life.
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For a certain subset of kids, American schooling is a great way to learn to distrust authority. Unambiguously.
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The same thing could be said of music. Most people will never even play for tips in a coffee shop; but being exposed to an instrument is still good. For the love of all that's holy though, not the recorder.
I've heard Canadian schools teach kids ukulele. So much nicer, and you can get a plastic uke for $20 retail, probably next to nothing if you sent them to schools. I was talking to a musician lately who told me about that and he said the big advantage is that not only are the frets close for small hand
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The same thing could be said of music. Most people will never even play for tips in a coffee shop; but being exposed to an instrument is still good.
I disagree. Complete waste of my time. Repeatedly. For anybody that has an interest in it, sure. But forcing people? That just makes it clear some fuckups stuck in the past are dictating what you have to learn.
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What about "neither"? LLMs will _never_ code competently and with simple things they are still hit-or-miss. The same is true for most people. Teaching everybody "to code" is a colossal waste of time and effort and entirely stupid.
Teaching code basics isn't a horrible idea, just so folks get a general understanding. But I don't see much point for the vast majority of going beyond the very basics. Show them hello world, show them a basic logic loop, and a switch, and give them a concept of how it works. Those that are curious will seek out more. Those that aren't will have their, "Ew," moment, and seek other avenues. But I don't think the idea of having some general knowledge is terrible.
But no, we do not need every single person to h
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Teaching code basics isn't a horrible idea, just so folks get a general understanding. But I don't see much point for the vast majority of going beyond the very basics.
I agree. We had that in mathematics around 40 years ago. Some simple algorithms in BASIC and altogether 4 hours (as far as I remember) in the computer room. Theory in the weeks before, so we actually had a clue what the reason for this was (after having done these manually) and no searching for a fake "problem".
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Quote by Biden:
Anybody who can go down 300 to 3,000 feet in a mine, sure in hell can learn to program as well
Source [newsweek.com]
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Or be US president! It's easy! No actual understanding of reality required. By that Metric, the US should _definitely_ elect Trump. Sure, it will all go down in flames in that case, but at least it will be entertaining.
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It's true, though. Any idiot can learn to program.
Maybe not to do it well, but that's true of any job.
The vast majority of programmers are not software engineers, are not making architecture decisions, and may not even need to "write" code. They can, instead, use flowchart-style visual programming systems to click and drag their way to a passing unit test.
The hardest thing about programming is getting the idiots to pay attention to what they're being asked to create, and to create that thing. Sometimes a mo
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I came here to say, lets all remember that real world logic is not binary. Both and Neither are real truth values. Look it up.
The best thing about this is that LLMs understand multivalued logic better than you do
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The best thing about this is that LLMs understand multivalued logic better than you do
There is so much fail in this claim... so much fail.
LLMs do not understand anything.
And they cannot use logic.
You can write software that uses logic, but it would be an expert system, and that's hard. It's also really hard to over-sell it in a way that tricks morons into thinking it has "understanding," since it will be narrowly restricted to an area of expertise and limited to well-formed queries.
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Indeed. The person you answered too is really clueless. Just to add, "both" and "neither" are not truth values at all. They are quantifiers. I guess that person does not even know the basics of formal logic.
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And fail. On all counts. Next time do not try this on somebody with actual experience in non-classical logic.
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Definitely neither in my corner of the U.S. My company believes the future of anything involving a computer is off shore.
Teach critical thinking and medial literacy first (Score:2)
Instead what we need is more critical thinking skills and more medial literacy skills so people aren't getting fooled by advertising and propaganda and other BS. Those are skills that will benefit them and the whole country for a lifetime and there's something you really need to teach when kid
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Teaching critical thinking in public schools sounds great but is very problematic. There are a lot of religious people who don't want their kids questioning their beliefs, and any serious approach to critical thinking dives directly into the heart of that.
The same goes for political beliefs.
Also, from what I have read, the brain of a young teenager really can't do critical thinking, regardless of education. The necessary neural wiring isn't fully in place yet, and they need to get to the "late teen/early
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Programming is just a job skill until you get into at least a 200 level math course. We already have more programmers than we know what to do with thanks to India. The last thing we need is a flood the market more.
Instead what we need is more critical thinking skills and more medial literacy skills so people aren't getting fooled by advertising and propaganda and other BS. Those are skills that will benefit them and the whole country for a lifetime and there's something you really need to teach when kids are kids.
I agree with you 100 percent. But there's a connection between those two observations that you haven't explicitly stated - and that connection is what I came here to comment on.
In addition to whoring the programming market so they can buy programming skills for burger-flipping wages, Big Tech also wants people who are NOT educated in history, psychology, literature, philosophy, and other such elements of critical thinking. Learning such "unimportant" curriculum elements might allow the would-be IT fodder to
SPSS & SAS? Are you kidding? (Score:2)
Almost no-one outside of academia uses these applications, and those that do are the very largest companies and government departments. If you look at job ads for data analysts, it's all Python and R. What on Earth are the people that run Code.org thinking?
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You think they think? From available evidence, they are deeply into ignoring reality.
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I bow to your superior knowledge. I am basing my claim on job ads in my field. So, OK SAS might be necessary for employment in biotech/pharma, but what about every other industry that employs data analysts? I note that you do not mention SPSS, so I suppose you accept my claim?
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Follow the money. It's the same as CompTIA getting embedded in the education system and making boatloads of cash off their certification testing by convincing schools everyone needs certification out of high school. It's ALWAYS about the money. Follow it and find the problems.
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Not much of academia uses SAS, but most of the pharma industry does because the FDA makes them. My impression of SPSS is that it's used by some of the older generation because that's what they learned.
Neither of those is a good reason to teach it in schools. It's extremely expensive and a pain in the ass in almost every way.
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SPSS is widely used by non-programmers in corporate environments to do typical data analysis tasks by selecting algorithms from menus. Code is rarely needed, and when it is, it may actually be a Python macro that is requested and written by an IS support team. Quite likely by an academic intern.
SAS is widely used in business intelligence. Your personal information is likely being processed right this second by a SAS system to analyze how better to utilize you. Note that it is a set of proprietary products a
As a computer geek... No. (Score:3)
Coding isn't bad for teaching problem solving, organized thought, and project management. You learn to break down big problems into little ones, how to solve the little ones, and how the result of one solution affects all the problems that follow it.
You don't need C++ for that. Very few kids are going to become coders and those that do will be out of date by the time they graduate anyway.
So 'computers' yes, 'programming' yes, but not in the way or to the degree it's being pushed.
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I think our high school did a surprisingly good job of this back in the 80s. We had NEC 8-bit computers and yes we coded on them; but a lot of the course was off-machine instruction that talked about algorithms. I especially remember a video we watched about sorting which outlined a number of sorting algorithems. At the end it compared them in real time using a simple graphic. Then we coded up bubble sort and quick sort on the NEC. Funny thing about that--bubble sort completed in a reasonable time, but
Makes perfect sense... (Score:2)
The folks at code.org couldn't take code.org approved coding courses when they were young since they didn't exist yet.
And therefore they are computer illiterate and need to use tools like Tableau to process data.
Had they waited say 10 years, they could hire a code.org-approved educated kid to come in and handle their data processing.
Bad priorities (Score:2)
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Agreed, but try doing that 30 kids at a time when they have parents pissed that you're trying to brainwash them when they come home with ideas about how to behave that mom & dad don't agree with.
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Well, do the right thing or do the easy thing? If the second one gets chosen too often, things deteriorate rather badly.
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Do you cast informed votes for your local school board, and have you let your politicians know you support tax increases to pay for more teachers? Do you vote for state/provincial politicians who would support adding these things to the curriculum?
It's easy to say "do the hard thing", but not enough people are even trying, limiting themselves to bitching at the teachers. We get the society we collectively want as expressed by the efforts we go to for change.
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Does not work like that here.
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I would recommend teenagers learn from "What do you say after you say 'Hello'?" by Eric Berne: It's a summary of the different models of human behaviour. Teenagers need to understand motivation and reward (Like sex, they currently learn via trial and error.) and Maslow's hierarchy: This provides detail and serves as foundation material to their own relationships.
The original topic is, of course, Civics: How humans solve the problems of organizing themselves (Eg. government/tribe/family) and protecti
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Yes, it's a good idea... (Score:2)
...to teach kids the basics of programming, but few will be good at it and be able to turn it into a career. Talent is real
I disagree. (Score:2)
"Computer science education is a necessity for all students," argues tech-backed nonprofit Code.org
Computer usage training is a necessity for all students. Computer science education should be available for those with interest and aptitude.
Not everyone needs to learn to code. Not everyone needs to understand how computers work. Everyone needs to be able to use one.
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Computer usage training is a necessity ...
While not in the education sector, I am not aware of any schools teaching it, ever. There was a Slashdot article at the beginning of the year, where colleges and universities complained students didn't know what a folder/directory was. When data-entry/computer usage stopped being an Adult Education course, the few relevant textbooks disappeared. Such skills can still be learnt via the "For dummies" and "Idiot's guide" books but no-one talks about those.
Pretend it is science (Score:2)
Computer science education is a necessity ...
Schools have trouble teaching ordinary math to children, now they want to teach the mathematics that computers use: Who are these retards?
Oh, you mean "algorithm design" but want to pretend it is "science". How about teaching children 'domestic engineering'? I suspect they'll need that too: Well, not for work but while you're talking about what's "a necessity", it's impossible to ignore.
Here, that has been part of the advanced mathematics syllabus for 50 years. (Aside: Most of the lessons don't requir