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Dreamweaver MX, Flash MX With CrossOver Office 333
AstroDrabb writes "It seems that CodeWeavers' CrossOver Office 2.1 now supports Dreamweaver MX and Flash MX. So for those who have been waiting to ditch MS Windows because of these two apps, now is your chance. The announcement from CodeWeavers can be found here
and the changelog can be found here.
The list of supported applications is also getting pretty impressive."
Can I sync my IPAQ? (Score:2, Interesting)
I am stick on win4lin now, but I have to admit that cw seems impressive.
G.
Re:Can I sync my IPAQ? (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Can I sync my IPAQ? (Score:2)
Hold your horses about switching (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Hold your horses about switching (Score:5, Informative)
We know the reality of Wine - it can be very promising, but fail in important ways. So, we try to help our customers be cautious in their adoption. For example, Photoshop, which actually is one of the very best performing applications in CrossOver (it is in heavy use to make major motion pictures), started at Bronze, and is now only at Silver.
With that said, we have found Dreamweaver to be very complete, with only a few remaining bugs. And we have yet to find a bug in Flash... (but we didn't try as hard there).
Cheers,
Jeremy White CEO CodeWeavers
Re:Hold your horses about switching (Score:2)
Re:Hold your horses about switching (Score:2, Interesting)
IE (Score:3, Interesting)
That's pretty impressive/terrifying indeed.
Re:IE (Score:2)
NB: I don't work for CodeWeavers, but if you can get it to install IE works pretty well on WineHQ. Suitable for light browsing certainly.
Re:IE (Score:2)
See This screenshot [awoot.com] and This one [awoot.com]
Re:IE (Score:2)
p.s. just kidding eh
Re:IE (Score:2)
For Internet banking, this can work well. However, in addition to your password (PIN), you have a list of per transaction authentication numbers (TANs). Having access to a PIN doesn't get you much (other than a balance and a statement). Havin
Re:IE (Score:4, Insightful)
- To pay in a cheque through the hole-in-the-wall.
- To draw out some cash from the hole-in-the-wall.
Unless someone has come up with a new killer application that lets me scan a cheque at home and pay it into my account, or print pound notes on my own printer {actually, I have done the very next best thing, but that's another story}, I have absolutely no use for internet banking.
You're kidding, right? Either you're trolling or your bank is still in the stone ages. I pay all my bills online from my bank's website. That's phone, internet, health, credit cards, insurance, etc. Bill comes in the mail, I go online and pay it. I can also schedule payments in advance so that they're made exactly on the due date, or schedule automatic monthly/weekly/whatever payments. I also transfer amounts between accounts (personal and business) online as well. I can pay other people online at no cost, if they are using the same bank as I do.
The earthly point is that I hardly ever set foot near a bank these days, and that's on the odd occasion that I need to deposit a che[ck/que] or money order myself, rather than having it direct deposited. If your bank doesn't offer this, maybe you should look around for a new bank?
Re:IE (Score:2)
Indeed it does, and it can render even complex web pages. Here it shows the Adobe SVG plugin [theshell.com], as you can see it renders correctly and the is
excellent - but note it's only bronze support (Score:2, Redundant)
along with photoshop, macromedia products have been the most requested for codeweavers support, bar none, so this is excellent news... (btw, all you dreamweaver-bashers; yes, flash is often a bad idea, but no dreamweaver doesn't produce bloated code unless you have no idea what you're doing
however, note that dreamweaver/flash are only at 'bronze medal' status
still good, as they
Re:excellent - but note it's only bronze support (Score:2)
http://developers.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=
Re:excellent - but note it's only bronze support (Score:2)
Ah, therein lies the rub: those who use Dreamweaver are usually the type that indeed has no idea what they are doing, thus the bloated code.
I know of few Web developers who use Dreamweaver (well, Web developers worth crap, that is) as their primary tool. At least MX let's you code in a non-WYSIWYG manner more easily, but the software itself is bloated, not terribly user-friendly, and expensive.
Just as they release (Score:4, Insightful)
Some smaller developers may well take up the older versions under linux - certainly there could be benefits for testing on a local machine that's already running Apache, PHP & mysql, but bigger developers will want latest releases to stay up to date in the marketplace.
Re:Just as they release (Score:2)
"Stay up to date in the marketplace" is about the weakest reason I've seen anywhere. That's like saying "Let's jump on
The idea that the latest, shiny app must get used is indicative, to me anyway, of the immature nature of the web design industry. Gandalf's Theory (the one about breaking shit for the sake of it = stup
Re:Just as they release (Score:2)
Re:Just as they release (Score:2)
I don't know about Flash, but I use Dreamweaver a lot for the web-related aspects of my job (mostly building ColdFusion apps) and I can tell you firsthand that there aren't that many big differences between Dreamweaver MX and 2004. Other than the CSS improvements (which, honestly are quite nice) I'd say that there are few big reasons to upgrade. Macromedia has a page with the changes here [macromedia.com].
At least for me this is A-OK
impressive list? (Score:2, Interesting)
call me stupid, but, if they don't work how the heck
can you say they are supported?
looks like somebody was just trying to fluff up the list so they could get attention.
ttwisi
- jeff -
Good, I suppose (Score:5, Interesting)
It's good as it allows people to use a popular windows app in Linux x86. But it's bad because now there is less pressure on Macromedia to develop a native port or for somebody else to write a free Dreamweaver killer.
I personally would have preferred if some good programer had enhanced Mozilla composer to the same level of feature richnes as the Macromedia suite. That way not only x86 Linux users would have a content development tool but also users of other Linux platforms would have a good content development tool. Not to mention that it would also likely have run on Solaris, HP-UX, AIX, MacOS-X and windows.
Re:Good, I suppose (Score:5, Insightful)
I think this argument is rather academic. Being able to use popular apps in Linux is undoubtably good, however the "bad" arguments rely on two flawed assumptions:
1) Macromedia might one day do a native port. Not going to happen anytime soon guys. Dreamweaver is a huge app, and I'd be willing to bet that (as with most apps) the majority of the code is platform specific GUI and graphics calls. It would take a truly astonishing amount of manpower to port it to say GTK+, make it fully integrate and so on, and it just isn't economically viable while Linux has only 1% of the desktop market. Even if we had 5% or 10% we'd still be pushing our luck - a port in this sense often means a rewrite.
2) That we'd have an open source dreamweaver killer anytime soon. Quanta is about the only thing that comes close, and while a great effort, is not a Dreamweaver killer. It might be one day, but that's yet another long term dream.
Basically, the best way out of a bad situation here is via emulation, which is exactly what we're doing.
Re:Good, I suppose (Score:2)
Not real sure if Adobe even makes Photoshop for Unix anymore. Basically, a group of folks have to get together and use their buying power to influence a port. If there were enough people lined up to buy Macro
Re:Good, I suppose (Score:2)
I could be wrong, though I'd expect that if Linux and MacOS had the same market share, and Macromedia supported both equally, it would still mean more sales of Macromedia products to Mac users vs. Linux users.
Re:Good, I suppose (Score:2)
The project is still in very early stages, but give it a year or two.
And I also think that you overestimate the cost of making a Dreamweaver port to Linux. Large parts of Dreamweaver is written in Javascript. They still need to port rendering engines and such though.
Porting to Linux would be beneficial to Macromedia as they by doing so would get the foothold in a new and growing market.
Re:Good, I suppose (Score:2)
A web-design app that uses a browser used by 1% of the broswing public? Where do I sign up?
Re:Good, I suppose (Score:3, Interesting)
When I first started learning html, I heavily resisted Dreamweaver, but then I got a job where it was available, so I started learning it. For a long time after that I moved backward in understanding.
It was only when I dit
Re:Good, I suppose (Score:2, Funny)
And there's a project to make Honda Accords match the new Hummer H2's with slight modifications.
Re:Good, I suppose (Score:2)
- I need to work with
- I need to talk to Exchange servers, and CrossOver is cheaper than Ximian Connector. Only a little, but if I had 1000 seats to consider, it'd be a factor.
For all I'd rather be using free/OSS tools for the job, CrossOver is doing a great job helping me bridge the gap. Go CodeWeavers!
We really need a Dreamweaver under GNU/Linux !!! (Score:3, Insightful)
Please developers of free and open software here is a great work to do for your fellow hackers!
Re:We really need a Dreamweaver under GNU/Linux !! (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Quanta Plus, anyone? (Score:2)
*blah blah* real developers use notepad *blah blah*
I like FrontPage/DW because I can throw together some complex tables and throw some images in quicker than typing it in Notepad. Obviously, I have to use Notepad (or something similar) to clean up the resulting code and make it compliant, but for me, I've still found a time savings in the end. In my mind, it would be like POV Ray developers calling users of Photosh
Dreamweaver MX has been running under Wine before (Score:2, Informative)
Some people dropped Windows long ago (Score:2)
Supported = stable? (Score:2)
This isnt accpetable in business ( though how microsoft gets away with it, ill never understand. )
Hmm... where is the demo, or bit torrent to try it out for myself with MY applications? Or do they just expect me to take a leap of faith?
Refunds = Good (Score:2)
Didn't know they had a download a demo available ( I asked them long ago and got what amounted to an inquisition and lost interest at that point ) but ill check it out and give it a whirl on our apps.
Though, not having access support is still a major thorn.. and no, we cant just 'switch to PHP and MYSQL' as man
Lotus Notes for Linux... when ? (Score:3, Interesting)
Better choices (Score:2, Interesting)
Flash is simply an animated gif enhancement for viewing more annoying banner ads. And for locking out users from web sites designed by designers that think it is more important to show off their flash progr
My daughter disagrees (Score:2)
My 21 month old daughter would disagree with you. For her, Flash is a way of watching Pingu the penguin jump across the ice flow, doing jigsaws online and learning letters from the Play with Clay Disney site. (Sorry no links - I'm at work and am not bringing those animations up now).
Flash can be used for more than ads. Personally I block Flash ads under Windows by using Firebird with the Flash Click to Run extension, and un
Re:Better choices (Score:2)
--
As for Dreamweaver, regardless of the naysayers, it's bloated, not stable, and it still is not fully w3c compliant, even if you do know what you are doing. There is still non-compliant code that is inserted into source code, regardless of the settings.
--
I work for a shop that specializes in web accessibility and usability. How, exactly, does Dreamweaver 'insert' things into the source code, regardless of the settings? I code in Dreamweaver. I don't use design mode and I only tinker with a co
Re:Better choices (Score:2)
Let me quote the wysiwyg link you provided:
"Even in WYSIWYG mode we will still be entering text into the editor with an editing rule set"
Typing is NOT the best way to create everything!
OSS dev: "I think I'll go type up a painting..."
I give up!
Re:Better choices (Score:2)
I think your "selling a car without a warrenty" analogy fits better to propriatory software.
Free software is more like getting a new car for free including the factory needed to build the next model. But as you say some PHBs havn't got that yet. But they will, or they will end up as just PHs.
Why crossover only works on the converted: (Score:3, Interesting)
Maybe for some corporate customers, but I doubt it. Even as a small business owner, I wouldnt take the risk.
Re:Why crossover only works on the converted: (Score:3, Informative)
Option 3:
Cheapbytes Linux $3
OpenOffice FREE
Option 4:
For those that only have to read email attachments, just use Crossover plugin with the free word viewer and free excel viewer.
Other options, win4lin, vmware. I have used both vmware and crossover and I have always been quite happy.
Linux is about choice and freedom.
Re:Why crossover only works on the converted: (Score:2)
Re:Why crossover only works on the converted: (Score:2)
Our current position at work is:
- 10,000 desktops at a large number of locations, all running Win 2K + Office. They are a pain to admin, and cause havoc by needing 100 Mb service packs to be delivered across our very thin WAN.
- 7,000 of those desktops could be converted to Linux + Openoffice with no loss of productivity. We've done the analysis (they write simple letters, look at simple spreadsheets a
Random comments on this (Score:2)
2. There is a Linux distro, Xandros, that comes with CrossoverOffice as a preinstalled component (at least in the deluxe Xandros). The combined package is cheaper than the two apart.
3. It becomes possible with this to create enterprise packages consisting of a bootable Linux CD with all the applications the users need, and all th
Re:Random comments on this (Score:2)
While I personally appreciate putting /home on a flash drive for programs like Knoppix, it would be better to follow the traditional method on a network; mount /home/user_name from a server. No keys to loose, the storage is cheaper and much la
My main concern (Score:2)
Tcl/Tk is great for whipping up a GUI-based application or applet, and it works fine in most academic or scientific environs, because you don't need fancy features but you do often want a solid, blocky, clearly-visible system.
They claim to support the Office 2000 features, and I've no reason to doubt
Is this a "Good Thing" (Score:2, Insightful)
I use my Gentoo Linux partition for just about everythnig, but have to reboot to windows when I need to get some work done and work with Macromedia Studio 2004. I know I'm not the only one who has repeatedly e-mailed and faxed and called Macromedia about Linux versions of their programs. I'd buy them in a heartbeat, and I know I'm not the only one.
Now that the MX versions of Flash and Dream
good css editor for linux? (Score:2)
Does anyone know good style editors for linux?
I've been using Top Style on Windows as well as Mozilla plugins like editcss. (I think Morphon has a (free) css editor, but I can't remember how well it's integrated into its xml editor.
Codeweavers vs Wine (Score:2)
what about mac? (Score:2)
Fireworks. Fireworks. Fireworks. (Score:3, Interesting)
Thing is, for most Linux users, #1 isn't going to be much of an issue. And #2 is better done in a graphics program suited to it. Which is exactly what Fireworks is. It's *much* better than Photoshop, because of the wide variety of vector oriented tools, better slicing facilities, all while having a good set of raster/bitmap tools and effects as well.
I'd also imagine this wouldn't be too hard for Macromedia. Their products seem to give the impression of a unified underlying toolset/library, though I couldn't speak authoritatively to that.
Re:I'll ditch windows (Score:5, Interesting)
Personally I'll be happy to move when there's a viable alternative for all the applications I run. Except there already are...so I guess I'm just idle.
Anyway the point is, or at least how I read your comment, that you aren't looking to ditch Windows because it suits your needs. I am, I just need the push. This could be it.
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:I'll ditch windows (Score:2, Funny)
Re:I'll ditch windows (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:I'll ditch windows (Score:2)
I don't believe it I KNOW it. I've messed around with the alternatives, and they all come up lacking for me. I'll grant that's at least partially due to my comfort with Windows, but that's not something I'm going to discount for the sake of fairness. If it suits me then it suits me. I actually used a Linux desktop for a few years exclusively on my home computer, and I went back to Windows b/c I got tired of always fucking with con
Re:I'll ditch windows (Score:3, Insightful)
I guess you can defend mac vs. pc hardware debates and almost always win on price, but when you're talking about the OS and software, that's a whole different ballgame.
Re:I'll ditch windows (Score:2)
Re:I'll ditch windows (Score:3, Informative)
This [apple.com] did exactly that for me, of course the downside is that you have to shell out a thick wad of cash. These Wine ports are nice if you are doing relatively light-weight stuff but as soon as you are working on a major website or a 100mb+ sized Photoshop document with a few dozen layers it is crash city. I prefer native s
Re:I'll ditch windows (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:I'll ditch windows (Score:4, Insightful)
If you, on the other hand, are having problems with Windows, or find that it "kind of works", but would love to find something better, you should be more open-minded and realize that you probably won't be able to use all your apps on the new OS. And why should you? It is good for you to try out alternatives to the applications you are currently using if they do not suit your needs. But if they do, feel free to stick with them. Whatever suits your need.
CrossOver tries to run Windows software under Linux, which is probably useful for those who really want Linux but also would like to run certain Windows applications. Nothing wrong about that of course, as the Linux environment is quite different from Windows.
But in the end, is it really necessary to post trollish remarks like yours? I cannot see how it could possibly be useful. Then again, looking at your posting history, the comment does not surprise me :)
Re:I'll ditch windows (Score:5, Interesting)
Why? Because sometimes it's necessary that someone comes and rains on one's parade, just to remind one that reality is that-a-way. Otherwise, if all posts are along the lines of "woohoo, now we emulate Mini-Notepad-Lite v0.01, so Linux is ready for the desktop", some people might actually start believing it.
The reality, however, is more complex than that.
For the vast majority of people, an OS is just a funky loader for the applications they need. The _only_ reason to have an OS at all, or to have a computer at all, is to run those apps. That's all.
Real users (including corporate users) are really never Windows fans or Linux fans. They just have needs along the lines of "but I need a spreadsheet which can run all those macros and stylesheets we already have". (Something where, incidentally, OpenOffice fails miserably.) Or "but I need something which still runs all those ActiveX and Flash games on the MSN site." Or whatever.
Having Windows or Linux or OS/2 or even SCO Unix on their machine is _not_ their goal. Being able to keep hanging around with their buddies in EverQuest or with their ActiveX Backgammon buddies on Microsoft's site, on the other hand, might just be.
Normal users also don't like to learn new stuff or experiment. "Change" almost means "trauma" for the normal user. You have to give them a damn good reason to go through it. "You sorta can run some of your old apps" isn't even starting to cut it. They can run their apps without switching, too. Now if you gave them a killer app that they _can't_ run without switching, _that_ might count.
The normal user sees no thrill in experimenting. They don't want to try a car with the pedals in completely different position every week, and sometimes with a joystick or gamepad instead of a steering wheel. Same here. Ideally they'll want to learn once where the buttons are, and then find them in the exact same position in every single app, from now until doomsday.
I.e., again, you have to give them a damn good reason to switch to another OS.
Incidentally, it's another reason why Linux is still utterly unfit for Joe Average's desktop. Each app coming with a different set of widgets, and its own completely original interface, is _not_ what Joe Average wants. You can talk about the greatness of the Bazaar model and the advantages of free experimenting with new ideas all you want, for normal users all that's just unneeded stress. But that's a whole other topic.
Incidentally, the same applies to the browser flame wars. Same as Joe Average doesn't really care about the OS, only about the apps, he also doesn't care about the browser. He cares about the web sites. The browser is just a window to see the web through. It's just a tool, like his TV. And just like his TV, he'll not switch to another one, as long as the old one works reasonably well. But that's again another topic.
Basically all I'm saying is that the Real World (TM) works by completely other rules than the code-centric "woohoo, look at what cool gimmicks we've coded" view that's rampant on Slashdot. And sometimes someone has to come and rain on your parade. Call it trolling if you will. Personally I call it a "reality check."
Of course, that's not to say that I don't admire the work of the Wine coders. Damn impressive achievement, from a coder point of view. But also far from the point where it'll get Joe Average to switch. That's all I'm saying.
Re:I'll ditch windows (Score:3, Insightful)
When it comes to browsers, the same users are actually thrilled to get away from MSIE's
Re:I'll ditch windows (Score:2)
Does that have anything to do with the article? This article is noting the fact that two big applications now work (more ore less) with Crossover's wine t
Re:I'll ditch windows (Score:2)
Basically I doubt that _that_ many people were just dying to switch, and those two apps were _all_ that was holding them back. I doubt that that many people were running Dreamweaver MX at home to start with. Or that those who were, now will suddenly miss no other Windows app, and are ready to go Linux full time. That's all.
Still, I guess it's an im
Re:I'll ditch windows (Score:2)
Yes, wisely noted. For the common user, computers are still too much stress. They crash too often, they apparently become slower every month (or rather: the applications require more and more resources to run anywhere near acceptably), they're an endless source of unneeded trouble (e.g., spam and worms), they require entirely too much configuration, they require entirely too much reading dialog boxex (hence the clicking without reading, which installs that spywa
Re:I'll ditch windows (Score:2)
Re:I'll ditch windows (Score:2)
You're not that special. Many thousands of volunteer developers don't write an operating system to suit you, they write to suit them. Companies that try and win Windows users over only really target the ones that are tired of Windows. Besides, your reserved position works the other way. I'll ditch Linux and use Windows w
Re:I'll ditch windows (Score:2)
> I can open it up and see what's inside.
> I don't have to rely on MS for patches to come
Yeah, that's one of the killers. While Microsoft does a generally decent job nowadays of implementing somewhat timely patches, there are occasions when they distribute patches that either (A) break something else or (B) don't really fix whatever bug or hole they're supposed to fix. That happens in Linux, too, but in Linux, if the main program distributor puts out a ba
Day Late, Dollar Short (Score:2)
Use Windows for Windows apps, Linux for Linux Apps.
What about 2004? (Score:2)
Re:I'll ditch windows (Score:2)
Re:Dreamweaver == bloat (Score:5, Informative)
In the beginning, there was the Web.
All was good. Bandwidth was, on average, low, but sites were small and to the point, and loaded quickly.
People began to use frames and many other things, marring the content with style.
But then, in this dark hour, when web pages loaded slowly and all hope was lost, a light appeared in the darkness.
It was CSS.
CSS is based on the idea that content, which is the actual information of a web page, should be entirely seperate from the style of a web page, which is defined by the CSS. If you disable CSS, the webpage should load as plain text and pictures and form elements, no spiffy navigation bar here, no sidebar here. Something that text-readers can understand and that loads very quickly. The CSS file also loads quickly, and by combining the two into one a web page can be made small, while still full of content and aesthetically pleasing.
Re:Dreamweaver == bloat (Score:2, Informative)
Now, the bad pa
Re:all good but... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:all good but... (Score:2)
You said it right there.
If there is a multi-company pitch for the design of a web site, the company that pitches on the basis of fancy design will very often win.
I have been in pitches where we have stressed that it is the content itself which is important, not fancy design, and stressed things like quick loading, easy access and wide accessibility. You know what? It's often not a great pitch. Most often (and understandably) the
Re:all good but... (Score:2)
I've heard it called "pretty", specifically meaning slick, polished, simplistic and not at all geeky or technical.
I've had 2 projects killed because lack of an immediately visible "pretty" interface. That one could be added is considered a downside...since it was not "pretty"
Re:all good but... (Score:2)
And it works just fine on their Fast Ethernet LAN with only two hops to the webserver...
Re:all good but... (Score:5, Insightful)
It's very different. I suggest you try their trial version and see. For starters, you get practically 100% performance, there is no slowdown due to emulating a CPU or holding an entire copy of Windows in memory. Secondly, you get much better integration - apps appear in your Linux menu system, they use your native window manager (so they support virtual desktops etc), you can copy and paste between native and emulated apps ... the list goes on and on.
Re:all good but... (Score:2)
If you use a virtual machine or an emulator, it bogs down the system a lot more. In addition to the app itself running slower, the emulator/vm is also running with its own separate memory footprint.
Re:Excuse me, (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Excuse me, (Score:2, Informative)
On 'trendy' lower case tags. (Score:5, Informative)
From here [w3.org].
Re:On 'trendy' lower case tags. (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:On 'trendy' lower case tags. (Score:2, Insightful)
The single good reason for "breaking the spec the way they are trying to" is that XHTML is meant to be BOTH readable and writable for humans, with little trouble, and readable and writabl
Re:Excuse me, (Score:2)
I use it to help organize my stylesheets, for it's autocompletion capabilities, for the advanced manipulation of the code, for having constant code reference and 'CSS Helpers' so to speak so that I don't have to have every single CSS possible option memorized
For having a quick rough visual reference for what a page will look like, etc. etc. etc.
Dreamw
Re:Excuse me, (Score:4, Insightful)
A) Using an old version (newer versions really do check for those multi-tags as you do edits and cleans them up.)
B) Doesn't know what they are doing. Dreamweaver is GREAT, in that it SPECIFICALLY does EXACTLY what you tell it to. It's meant for the person who DOES understand HTML. It is not a true WYSIWYG in that sense. You have you know the different effects that assigning a class to the table, versus tr, versus td, versus the paragraph tag, versus the span means
If the person doesn't understand that, you will get crap, because they will be clicking in random spots, and DW will THINK they know what they are doing.
Re:Excuse me, (Score:3, Insightful)
On the other hand pros also know enough to do plugin checks and provide alternative content for those who choose not to use proprietary plugins and can also provide text only versions for alternative bro
Re:Excuse me, (Score:2)
Re:Excuse me, (Score:2)
Re:Still no good (Score:2)
Re:What about IE 6.0 (Score:2)
Re:What about IE 6.0 (Score:2)
Why in gods name would anyone want to run IE on Linux?
If you like it that much either use vmware or just use Windows.
IE offers nothing that you can't get/do with any myriad of Linux browsers, take your pick.
Re:What about IE 6.0 (Score:2)
Umm... All the people who develop websites in Dreamweaver MX and need to test them on IE. The poster never said he/she was actually going to use it...
Re:Legends and truth about Dreamweaver and Flash (Score:2)
>yet
Fear the power of Flash!!
http://www.deanliou.com/WinRG/WinRG.htm