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The Great Microkernel Debate Continues
Posted by
Zonk
on Thursday January 31, @11:21AM
from the tiny-issues dept.
from the tiny-issues dept.
ficken writes "The great conversation about micro vs. monolithic kernel is still alive and well. Andy Tanenbaum weighs in with another article about the virtues of microkernels. From the article: 'Over the years there have been endless postings on forums such as Slashdot about how microkernels are slow, how microkernels are hard to program, how they aren't in use commercially, and a lot of other nonsense. Virtually all of these postings have come from people who don't have a clue what a microkernel is or what one can do. I think it would raise the level of discussion if people making such postings would first try a microkernel-based operating system and then make postings like "I tried an OS based on a microkernel and I observed X, Y, and Z first hand." Has a lot more credibility.'"
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Kris Warkentin writes: "This question is not entirely intended to start a debate about the pros and cons of microkernels vs. monolithic ones. What I would really like to know, however, is how _feasible_ it would be to convert the Linux kernel to a microkernel. I was looking at how the QNX kernel offers only core services like threading, IPC, process creation, memory management, initial interrupt handling, etc. Everything else functions as a process within its own memory space. Linux can be configured so that it is much like this with other things (filesystems, etc.) compiled as modules. The key difference is that all the modules are operating in kernel space. So, the question is, how difficult do you think it would be to devise a communication protocol to let modules function outside of kernel space and merely talk to the kernel? What would be the cost and benefits? Would it be possible to have both types in the same source tree? (say, as a compile option)"
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Tanenbaum-Torvalds Microkernel Debate Continues 534 comments
twasserman writes "Andy Tanenbaum's recent article in the May 2006 issue of IEEE Computer restarted the longstanding Slashdot discussion about microkernels. He has posted a message on his website that responds to the various comments, describes numerous microkernel operating systems, including Minix3, and addresses his goal of building highly reliable, self-healing operating systems."
The Fine Print: The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. We are not responsible for them in any way.
crickets (Score:5, Funny)
(crickets)
Re:crickets (Score:5, Funny)
1) RTFA
2) Have first hand knowledge of the subject
3) Make a reasoned, non-biased post/article on the subject
Talk about a dead end.
Re:crickets (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:crickets (Score:5, Funny)
Linux microkernal ... (Score:5, Informative)
If you read the article, Tannenbaum reminds everyone of how Microsoft paid Ken Brown to write a book accusing Linus of stealing the Minix microkernel. FTFA:
And another debate goes on. (Score:5, Funny)
hmmmm... (Score:5, Funny)
Hmmm....he must be new here ;)
Rise of virtualization = return of microkernel (Score:5, Interesting)
Design Philosophy (Score:5, Interesting)
The time it would take to design an implement a what the equivalent of driver would be were smaller. In the end it puts more flexibility into the hands of the application designer with the kernel taking care of just the bare minimum. The initial work at the time reported a 10x improvement in performance since you could customize so much of how the hardware resources were being used. This of course comes at a price, in addition to developing the application, you need to develop the drivers it uses, possibly increasing the time to write anything significant.
But in the end, flexability was key, and you can see some of the microkernel design philosophies start to seep into the linux kernel. Take a look at kernel modules for example. The code is already being abstracted out, now if it just effectively was designed to run in userspace.
My thoughts are that in the end the microkernel will win do to the fact that I can engineer a more complex OS that is cheaper to change, not because it is faster. Tis is the compromise that was made with compilers vs. machine language programming. In the end I think Tanenbaum will win, linux will become a microkernel out of necessity, and Linus as it turns out would have gotten a good grade from Dr. Tanenbaum. He just would have handed his final project in 40 years late by the time it happens.
Re:Design Philosophy (Score:5, Interesting)
Exokernels aren't the only microkernels of interest, though. There have been efforts to produce mobile nanokernels, on the theory that drivers are generally smaller than data, so in a cluster, moving the code to the data should be more efficient on resources. The opposite extreme has been to produce kernels that span multiple systems, producing a single virtual machine. Here, kernelspace and userspace are segmented and the latency between machines is simply another sort of context switch delay, yet the overall performance is greater than a loosely-coupled cluster could ever produce.
Microkernels have a lot of potential, a lot of problems have been solved, there are still problems that need to be solved better. eg: if a driver crashes, there needs to be a transaction log that permits the hardware to be returned to a valid state if at all possible, or rebooted then rolled into the last valid state. This isn't just a software problem, it's a hardware problem as well. Being able to safely reboot individual components on a motherboard in total isolation requires more than fancy coding and software switches. You need a lot more smoothing circuits and capacitors to ensure that a reboot has electrically no impact - not so much as a flicker - on anything else.
Where microkernels would truly be "at home" would be in machines that support processor-in-memory architecture. Absurdly common function calls, instead of going to the CPU, having instructions and data fetched, and then being executed, along a long path from the OS' entry point to some outer segment of code, can be embedded in the RAM itself. Zero overhead, or damn near. It violates the principle of single-entry, single-exit, but if you don't need such a design, then why waste the cycles to support it?
Plan 9 authors: "Tanenbaum hasn't learned anything (Score:5, Interesting)
- The client-server paradigm is a good one
Too vague to be a statement. "Good" is undefined.
- Microkernels are the way to go
False unless your only goal is to get papers published. Plan 9's kernel is a fraction of the size of any microkernel we know and offers more functionality and comparable or often better performance.
- UNIX can be successfully run as an application program
`Run' perhaps, `successfully' no. Name a product that succeeds by running UNIX as an application.
- RPC is a good idea to base your system on
Depends on what you mean by RPC. If you predefine the complete set of RPC's, then yes. If you make RPC a paradigm and expectevery application to build its own (c.f. stub compilers), you lose all the discipline you need to make the system comprehensive.
- Atomic group communication (broadcast) is highly useful
Perhaps. We've never used it or felt the need for it.
- Caching at the file server is definitely worth doing
True, but caching anywhere is worthwhile. This statement is like saying 'good algorithms are worth using.'
- File server replication is an idea whose time has come
Perhaps. Simple hardware solutions like disk mirroring solve a lot of the reliability problems much more easily. Also, at least in a stable world, keeping your file server up is a better way to solve the problem.
- Message passing is too primitive for application programmers to use
False.
- Synchronous (blocking) communication is easier to use than asynchronous
They solve different problems. It's pointless to make the distinction based on ease of use. Make the distinction based on which you need.
- New languages are needed for writing distributed/parallel applications
`Needed', no. `Helpful', perhaps. The jury's still out.
- Distributed shared memory in one form or another is a convenient model
Convenient for whom? This one baffles us: distributed shared memory is a lousy model for building systems, yet everyone seems to be doing it. (Try to find a PhD this year on a different topic.)
How about the "CONTROVERSIAL" points? We should weigh in there, too:
- Client caching is a good idea in a system where there are many more nodes than users, and users do not have a "home" machine (e.g., hypercubes)
What?
- Atomic transactions are worth the overhead
Worth the overhead to whom?
- Causal ordering for group communication is good enough
We don't use group communication, so we don't know.
- Threads should be managed by the kernel, not in user space
Better: have a decent process model and avoid this process/thread dichotomy.
Rob Pike
Dave Presotto
Ken Thompson
Phil Winterbottom
Notes on interprocess communication (Score:5, Interesting)
As someone who's done operating system internals work and has written extensively for QNX, I should comment.
Down at the bottom, microkernels are about interprocess communication. The key problem is getting interprocess communication right. Botch that, from a performance or functionality standpoint, and your system will be terrible. In a world where most long-running programs now have interprocess communication, it's amazing that most operating systems still do it so badly.
For interprocess communication, the application usually needs a subroutine call, and the operating system usually gives it read and write. Pipes, sockets, and System V IPC are all queues. So clunky subroutine call systems are built on top of them. Many different clunky subroutine call systems: SOAP, JSON, XMLHttpRequest, CORBA, OpenRPC, MySQL protocol, etc. Plus all Microsoft's stuff, from OLE onward. All of this is a workaround for the mess at the bottom. The performance penalty of those kludges dwarfs that of microkernel-based interprocess communication.
I've recently been writing a web app that involves many long-running processes on a server, and I wish I had QNX messaging. I'm currently using Python, pickle, and pipes, and it is not fun. Most notably, handling all the error cases is much harder than under QNX.
Driver overhead for drivers in user-space isn't that bad. I wrote a FireWire camera driver for QNX, and when sending 640 x 480 x 24 bits x 30 FPS, it used about 3% of a Pentium III, with the uncompressed data going through QNX messaging with one frame per message. So quit worrying about copying cost.
The big problem with microkernels is that the base design is very tough. Mach is generally considered to have been botched (starting from BSD was a mistake). There have been very few good examples anyone could look at. Now that QNX source is open, developers can see how it's done. (The other big success, IBM's VM, is still proprietary.)
Incidentally, there's another key feature a microkernel needs that isn't mentioned much - the ability to load user-space applications and shared libraries during the boot process. This removes the temptation to put stuff in the kernel because it's needed during boot. For example, in QNX, there are no display drivers in the kernel, not even a text mode driver. A driver is usually in the boot image, but it runs in user space. Also, program loading ("exec") is a subroutine in a shared object, not part of the kernel. Networking, disk drivers, and such are all user-level applications but are usually part of the boot image.
Incidentally, the new head of Palm's OS development team comes from QNX, and I think we'll be seeing a more microkernel-oriented system from that direction.
Re:Tag this article... (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Tag this article... (Score:5, Insightful)
Not two, but three birds with one stone
Re:Tag this article... (Score:5, Funny)
Like jump-rope (Score:5, Funny)
(With pardons to Eddie Izzard.)
Re:Which one? (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Which one? (Score:5, Interesting)
Is Linux relevant on the desktop? If you don't count duel boot machines how many Linux desktops are out there?
"Although microkernel OSs may be "nicer" from a design point of view, on the practical side the monolithical ones are serving us very well."
I have heard that argument before except it was about Unix. MS-DOS was so much faster and used less ram and drive space than Unix did.
To just dismiss microkernels because monolithic kernels are good enough is silly.
Actually Linux is starting to take some ideas from Microkernals. FUSE is a Microkernel idea. Moving more device drivers into userspace is also a very good idea. It means that security issues with a driver are less likely to root the OS or take out the OS with a crash.
Stablity and security are important aren't they?
But back to your comment yes QNX is relevant. It is relevant because it proves that you can have a small, fast, and stable microkernal OS.
Re:Which one? (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Old News (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Which one? (Score:5, Interesting)
A real microkernel-based system will have a lot of the userland facilities designed to take advantage of message passing and will probably look more like HURD or Squeak than it will like NT or NeXT. QNX [qnx.com] and VxWorks [windriver.com] are the only successful microkernel-based systems that I'm aware of, and frankly both of them are losing big to Linux, so we might have to say were the only successful systems in the future...
Re:Which one? (Score:5, Interesting)
Either you're microkernel or not. Either you run filesystems and network stacks in separated, isolated processes and address spaces, or you don't. NT and OS X don't run anything of that as a separated process, which was the whole point of having a microkernel. They run it in the same process space than everything else. Just like like linux, solaris, windows 9x. In other words, they aren't microkernels.
Yes, they have source-level design abstractions inherited from microkernels to make the design more modular. So do Linux, Solaris or any other decent monolithic kernel, even if they didn't inherited it from microkernels. Microkernel people wasted their years saying that a microkernel where needed to achieve "modularity", when the fact is that "modularity" in the design of software is not something that you can achieve only by running things in different process spaces. After 20 years they haven't realized that many parts of linux or solaris are more modular than their equivalents of minix or hurd.
Re:Both have their place (Score:5, Insightful)
Like many other "this vs. that" wars, people will use arguments like yours as a cop-out to avoid any serious analysis of the design tradeoffs and the implications of those tradeoffs.
It is quite hollow to say that something is not the "best for all tasks," without some analysis as to when it is the best option, or which option has the most promise in the long term (such that it might be a good field of research).
Re:Microkernels are the future (Score:5, Informative)
What does it do? Why, it's a monolithic driver that provides an interface to support userspace filesystem drivers. i.e. A microkernel in practice, if not in definition. Ergo, the grandparent's point about a slow migration.
Need a safe kernel, not micro (Score:5, Interesting)
A 'safe' kernel sounds slow, because it is probably interpreting bytecodes and has garbage collection. But you get many performance advantages also:
1) idle thread can actually do something, by making programs take less room (compacting gc), offloading some of the work of free(), and optimizing code. So programs respond faster when you switch back to them.
2) lack of data copying. Current systems often copy a *lot* of data from calls to read(2), write(2) and friends, and attempts to reduce this with calls like sendfile or page sharing is very complicated and has a lot of overhead. With a 'safe' kernel you can just give a read-only view, or any number of other very simple methods where no copying takes place.
3) mmu can be used to optimize garbage collection. Only pages written to since the last collection need to be checked for references to new objects, which can improve performance drastically if the instructions inserted to implement a software 'memory barrier' can be removed. It can also help run a gc in parallel since it can easily know if the objects it is looking at have changed during the collection.
4) can eliminate all TLB flushes and stalls from swapping page tables
5) much faster context switch means programs can have smaller time slices, so responsiveness is improved. Meaning less latency in audio (and everything else) without special hacks like magic 'realtime' processes.
6) can run on all hardware, even when lacking memory protection
7) hardware access safer than micro or monolithic kernel, and easier to write drivers