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Programming IT Technology

Borland And Troll Tech And Kylix Delphi/C/C++ 176

Posted by CmdrTaco from the tools-for-the-real-hackers dept.
nici writes: "Borland and Troll Tech(Qt+KDE anyone?) have made some sort of licensing agreement to allow Borland's new brain child Kylix to be born. It's going to be a Delphi/C/C++ compiler for Linux... complete with a GUI interface. It's supposed to be completely compatible with windows. Here's a Press Release." Several other people noted that Dr. Bob (CT:Not Dr. Dobbs, my bad! Mustn'y post before coffee!) has some screenshots if you're interested in what the tool actually looks like (Hint: It looks pretty sweet).
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Borland and Troll Tech and Kylix Delphi/C/C++ More

Borland and Troll Tech and Kylix Delphi/C/C++

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  • People don't just use Linux because it is free. People use Linux because it is good.

    The corporate world couldn't care less that Linux is free... they only care that it does the job that's needed. So, if a product comes out at a nominal price that does the job they want, then they will pay for it.

    I use VMware - it isn't free either - but it's a damn fine product. I paid for my license - and it was money well spent.

    Don't get me wrong, as a home user I will go for free (as in beer or speech - I'm not fussy) software before I will buy software. However, I won't do without if there isn't a free equivalent.
  • RAD tools are sorely lacking in the Linux environment and, contrary to the GCC evangelists opinions, are really needed for success in business. Delphi on windows is REALLY strong, and I'm looking forward to being able to develop utilities with the same ease for X windows. I'm a DBA, and I need the ability to be able to throw together quick and disposable apps to fulfill a single purpose. Perl is fun and all, but sometimes things simply call for a compiled binary. I'm hoping that they will include the database interface objects in this release to give me that ability (and to have a good argument for dumping my Windows 2000 desktop =P). Anyone know if any kinda db libraries are going to be included in the release? It'd be kinda cool to whip up a MySQL/Oracle/insert your favortie Linux database tool here Enterprise manager for X.

  • ...And as we all know, fromt the Windows world, "Rapid Application Development" == shovelware.

    Call me elitist, but I believe if any fool can write a Linux application (quickly, no less), then we can probably expect the Linux world to be flooded with lots of applications seemingly written by fools.

    Fire up a Windows box one day, go to www.download.com, and start downloading and trying out random shareware applications you find and you'll soon see what I mean.
  • Mmm, yeah. But I feel like the Traveler in H.G. Wells' Time Machine: technology seems dumbed down. I remember reading old PCMag and BYTE (all right, I read Compute!, too.) and there was code being discussed. These magazines are now mainstream. I don't know about BYTE anymore (think it's less of a problem there) but PCMag covers digital cameras, not C.

    There's a computer class at a local high school. They teach C++ there, but no one mentions Kernighan or Ritchie. This class is for the most advance kids in the district. 30 students every year are selected for it. And this is how advanced it really is. That means something.

  • Those Linux zealots brought you Linux in the first place.

    Not true. Linux zealots whine and complain about other operating systems and rave about how great Linux is. They don't do anything significant. The people making the big contributions tend to be more secure and much lower key.
  • I've been coding in Delphi for years and 10% of my time is actually spent building interfaces, the other 90% is writing the code behind it.

    If you want to be slow then be slow. Nobody is making you use Delphi or even entertain the idea of using it.

  • shots here [tdmweb.com]
    nuff said :)
  • Huh?

    At the very heart of Delphi, and the part of Delphi you will use most is the IDE editor. Not the form designer, not a wizard, but an actual text editor. And one helluva text editor too. Map your own keys, set up your own highlighting, configure it however you want.

    Im not so sure the IDE alone is really all that different from stuff like KDevelop, etc. Another thing that people haven't been mentioning is the fact that the IDE uses an OpenTools API which lets you do anything with it, including using your tools if you so choose. There are a variety of alternative programming editors out there that support Delphi in this way.

    I don't imagine the license for Kylix is going to be any more expensive then Delphi's current cost which is anywhere from 200 bucks to 2000 depending on which version you get. Note that it includes a C++ compiler as well as ObjectPascal compiler.

  • I can't speak from any specific comments or commitments from Borland, but there HAS already been a port of Delphi to the Alpha processor [borland.com] (mainly as something to run native with Windows NT running on an Alpha box). Much of the compiler core is written in Object Pascal, as well as the IDE (which was written with Delphi), so I can't imagine that it would be particularly difficult to port to other environments.

    Porting from Windows to Linux is a much bigger step than going from an i386 platform to some of the other architectures, especially if you can make sure the system calls are consistant. That is one big bonus that Linux has over the Microsoft products.
  • Don't forget, that you also have a command line compiler with Delphi, and can you use it, if you are hating visual programming :))
  • Please enlighten us with an example of something Delphi can do with a database that VB can't.

    1. Handle it with speed
    2. Write custom widgets to deal with the display of the data
    3. Get the data from the database using Corba, Midas
    4. Fetch a PNG image from a BLOB field, manipulate the pixels via walking pointers, composite it onto another image grabbed from another BLOB and export to JPG. In approximate realtime.
    5. Perform multi threaded inserts, selects from and to multiple servers at the same time

    Delphi isn't hoping to be anything other then the "delphi of linux". Note that Microsoft hired the head architect of the first two delphi editions and put him directly to work on VB in a weak attempt to catch up and/or match Delphi.

    They still aren't even close.

  • I am wondering if they are going to use the gnu compilers or are they just going to use their own prepriatory compilors. It seems to me that businesses haven't figured out yet that if you contribute to one of the many projects as opposed to doing your own then you don't have to reinvent the wheel. You benefit from other ideas. And everyone benefits overall. What happens when every company out there is vying for their own status as the standard. It seems to me then there won't be any standards...
  • A few points:

    1) There are a TON of third party data access components for Delphi, and I expect they will follow shortly for Linux. They are discussed and listed on my web site:

    http://kylecordes.com

    2) The idea that data aware controls are only for disposable apps is something that comes from the VB world, there that is true. However, Delphi data aware controls work extremely well and have various events, states, etc. that you might need to get the desired behavious. If you don't use data aware controls, you essentially write your own data awareness layer - why bother? The Borland layer works well, and you have the source to it (The VCL) if you are concerned about how it works.

    3) Delphi is a fantastic development tool, as many others here have pointed out.

  • 400-500 out of how many? I was referring to all Linux developers. I guess it's a pretty hard one to pin down though. We may not know until it comes out.

    -Effendi
  • That's what I miss the most in Linux.. of the viable editors, the only class view I've found is in the emacs speedbar, and it feels too weak to use to me.

  • no (Score:1)

    by / ( 33804 )
    His spelling mistakes clearly distinguish him from the average journalist he's competing with.

  • Since when has how something looked translated into functionality? Hmm?

    Several other people noted that Dr. Dobbs has some screenshots if you're interested in what the tool actually looks like (Hint: It looks pretty sweet).

    So now /. is equating a pretty interface with a good tool?

    Methinks it'll soon be time to leave.

  • But then you would not be compatible with Delphi/C++Builder. For current users of Delphi/C++Builder it would be _very_ convenient to port an application by simply recompiling (with a few changes, of course... or some more... :)
    At least in C++Builder (I don't know Delphi) you are free to use any graphical library you like, you _can_ use VCL (and look like Windows) but you can as well use QT or whatever you like (but of course the integrated GUI builder is for VCL)
  • Yes lets talk about those two for a minute clueless idiot. 1. GTK is not object oriented no matter what anyone says. It is inflexible, slow, and just generally a piece of crap. 2. KDE is not much better, the main gripe I have with it is the damn signal slot meta compiler crap. It is near impossible to put pascal wrappers and object model on these toolkits without just about starting from the ground up.
  • Not all programmers like spending their nite fixing their C code so that the GUI looks right. Some prefer doing real work coding the "logic" of the program, and doing the GUI with a point-and-clic interface.

    Kylix/Delphi is not about dumbing down programming, it is about automating the boring and tedious task of writing the GUI code.
  • Sure it's an IDE and a compiler, but more importantly it is a component library and framework.

    Why bother using it when there alternatives? Simply because many people like it. Why else?

  • Re:uhm, dont we have this already? (Score:4)

    by Junks Jerzey ( 54586 ) on Wednesday June 07, 2000 @04:42AM (#1020091)
    Actual, don't knock me off as a troll. I'm trying to say, why should I bother with Borland when I can use gcc/g++ and any ol' IDE (sorry about that obscure pun) that I want. I just don 't make sense. I already got dem tools
    But you for you windows boys, yes now you too can write programs for Linux!

    Don't knock Delphi until you have tried it and written a app with it. It's amazing. The compiler is maybe the best compiler ever written. Compile time is effectively zero. There's no link time. Object Pascal has niceties, like having single file modules instead of source + header files, that make you wonder how you ever managed with C++. You can ignore all the GUI and OOP stuff and just use Object Pascal as a straight compiler. The built-in assembler is so nice I've even used it for all-assembly programs, as it's much faster than NASM/MASM.

    And all of this is really just used as the back-end for a very slick and complete GUI design package. You can click on controls and add event handlers for just about anything. It's very complete.

    The killer is that everything is extremely solid and well-implemented to a level that is foreign to Linux desktop environments. gcc may be nice, but we've all had our general oddities and bizarro error messages from it. Putting a cranky GUI layout package on top of this is not the same thing. The bottom line is that Delphi is much, much stabler and slicker than what we're used to using in Linux. Ignoring it for GUI-based programs is on par with writing an OS in assembly code instead of C. Don't wear a hair shirt because this comes from Windows. Delphi will change Linux application development, no question about it.

  • Kylix looks good. (Score:4)

    by Forge ( 2456 ) <kevinforge AT gmail DOT com> on Wednesday June 07, 2000 @04:43AM (#1020092) Homepage Journal
    Let's start off with one huge assumption. This thing works well, is delivered on time, generates clean code, looks and feels like the Windows Burland stuff with enough Linux enhancements to attract new users. It should also generate KDE code with deep integration down to the KOffice and Panel applet level. Ohh... and it should mostly be compatible with The Windows software.

    This is a tall order but is pretty much what has been promised and Burland has a habit of delivering. Under that scenario who would use this?

    1. The Veteran Open Source/Free Software developer. Maybe but only if he has a day job that requires it. His real work will still be done in a plane text editor with GDB and GCC on call.

    2. The New OSS/Free developer. Not him either. He hasn't got any money and cares enough about Free software to use KDEvelop.

    3. The Commercial developer with eyes on Linux. Yes. They want to deliver salable stuff quickly.

    4. The Internal corporate developer ( I.e. Burland's real market ). These people will use this in disproportionately large numbers. They will port legacy apps on limited function desktops to Linux and reduce maintenance headaches. They will develop in Linux and deliver across platforms.

    5. Shareware author. Burland hinted at a desire to get it's support libraries included in popular distributions. If this happens then even junior developers will be able to deliver very small applications that are still fairly complex.

    Will this make money ? My guess is that Burland will achieve a clear profit on it's Linux venture before even some companies that came before. This includes Corel. However Corel may have larger overal revenue in the long run.

  • IT was written...

    I assume you meant "You were" - which makes the criticism all the more amusing.
  • Oh, come on, any big group of people has a few people with unaverage views who make a lot of noise. Don't believe that those are the views of the silent majority of Debian developers.
  • There's not a single page on TDM's website that is around. I get the dreaded 404 error for all pages. And www.drbob42.tdmnet.com is an unknown host. What gives? I'd love to seen some screenshots of Kylix.
  • >versus several pass required for C or C++.

    Actually, it is possible to write a C compiler that is single pass, if you mean that the input files are scanned only once. GCC will be single pass in the near future.
  • The one thing that most of the posts I've read fail to understand is that Linux programmers are not the target market. Windows programmers like myself are the target market.
    There are a lot of us and we like GUI IDEs. They're not better, just what we are used to. This will open up Linux to Windows programmers. (There goes the neighborhood)
    If Linux programmers try it and like it (and they probably will), so much the better.
  • Qt will be licensed by Borland so we wont have to pay a cent for that
  • Personally, I would have to agree with you in general, however in this case I can't say that I have a problem with Borland creating a compiler (even a proprietary one). They seem to have a good handle on how to do that.
  • Strangely, I've seen noone comment on licensing issues. From what limited information I've seen, Kylix will produce Qt based code. We already know that pure GPL and Qt don't mix, or at least, I'd prefer not to do it.

    I'd be happy to use Kylix, but not if it means I can't release GPLd programs.

    --
    to the beat j0r
  • You should have read some of these comments before posting this...

    "A fantastic--maybe the best--compiler and GUI development system is coming to Linux and we should ignore it?"

    No one said anything tike this but you. It seems like you were just looking to hate someone... I think it's time to rethink your view.
  • does anyone actually use borland for large projects? i used c++b and delphi for three years, and watched the price skyrocket as they started splitting out "enterprise versions" etc.

    i really liked their stuff years ago when it was like $79 for a full version, but the full versions of borland stuff are $1500 or more.

    QT is $1550 for commercial work (non-open source). now add on all the borland objects, and you're gonna get a hefty price tag.

    nice of all these folks to take advantage of Linus and friends, eh? esp. when you can get VC++ pro and w2k for less than QT alone.

    use wxWindows or something. Free cross platform development now.

  • I don't think there will ever be one dominant widget set.

    These are the big ones:
    - Motif+LessTif
    - Qt
    - Gtk+
    - Java Swing
    - Mozilla XUL
    - Xt/Xaw
    - Tk (tcl,perl)

    Most people run 3-4 of them at the same time.
    This really bad for efficiency of the system, even if we ignore the UI consistency problems.

    Unfortunatelly I don't see this improving any time soon. Xt would need to be deprecated in X for anything to happen.
  • Now if only MS would let Visual Studio make executables for other platforms...
  • MSVC has hardly any forms to fill. It is C++ after all, you can code ( and ussually have to) yourself to death with it.
    The visual part comes from dialog editors which are indeed visual in the sense that one can drag and position controls using mouse. But that really saves time. Do you enjoy counting pixels and positions for you buttons ?
    Emacs is no better or worse than MS stuff . It is simply different ( one point, it usually requires lots of time to assemble all the modules one might want to have while MS stuff comes ready out of the box.)
    After all it matters not. In the end it is the code that counts.
  • This rocks !!!! The best dev. tool, the best language Delphi, and the best GUI on the best OS brought together !!! I'm probably going to wake up in a few second - but what a dream :)
  • and it crashes a lot.
    It is nice, however stability is not there yet.
  • I could write a version of gcc with essentially zero compile time. The problem is the simple implimentation would produce slow code. Gcc does a okay job of optimization (depends on the platform), and syntax checking. My version would compile minnimally correct code, with no concern for where warnings should be issued.

    You're missing the point. Delphi does optimize code, and it does provide very nice warnings and errors (and even hints about things that could possibly be errors, though you can turn this off). You also get range checking for array accesses, if you want it.

    Yes, it is also true that Object Pascal is a simpler language than C++. It is easier to parse, and it doesn't include lots of the bloat. But it does have really nice modern features, like exception handling, unlimited length reference-counted strings built into the language, a very nice module system, and so on. Similarly, you could say that Linux has a leaner and cleaner kernel than Windows. Is that a bad thing?

    The bottom line here is that Delphi is very well-engineered. You can compile and link entire applications in the time that it takes gcc to compile one file. You can justify it any way you want to, but it is still (A) true, (B) wonderful, and (C) available right now for Windows ($99 for the personal edition).

    I'm not saying you should never use C or gcc, not at all. Just that it would be a mistake to overlook such a nice tool simply because you're afraid it would be better than what you're used to.
  • ...NOT ! Let's keep the bloated Visual Studio where it is - on Windows. As far as C and C++ is concerned there's already plenty on Linux. The good thing here is that it is Delphi (aka Object Pascal) with the best visual IDE around.
  • Those Linux zealots brought you Linux in the first place. If you think they don't know what they are doing, why don't you just keep using those other "far, far advanced systems" you keep talking about?

    But you are right to some degree: this draws a line in the sand. Linux was built by its users for themselves, and those folks have little use for Kylix and similar tools. Commercial use of Linux has little to do with that. So, we really have two separate communities, where the commercial community happens to be using a lot of tools developed by the open source community.

    Maybe this is not a stable long term situation and the commercial community will branch off; it's up to them. But either way, traditional Linux users will continue doing what they are doing.

    As for being "far far behind", I don't consider Borland's or Microsoft's tools particularly good: they are poor clones of 20 year old technology, they cause lots of software maintenance problems, and they generate user interfaces that rank low on several aspects of usability. It may be what users are used to, but it certainly isn't "good" or "new".

  • Java Swing is an abomination ( BTW it sits on top of AWT which is Motif I belive )

    Hopefully Xaw, Tk , Athena will die out soon ( they do deserve that) and we will be left with Qt ( my favourite), GTK and possibly Motif.
    That shouldn't be too bad ... I wish Qt would become standard but well ...
  • Of course it's linux-only - such thing could only be made for leenocks (or|==) windows.

  • Unix is dead, long live Unix (Score:2)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Ah yes, so refreshing to see more and more windows programs coming to Linux. Of course, having Delphi and C++Builder available on Linux means that even more programs can be ported to Unix. Which means more potential users.

    Which means that Unix is doomed.

    Every day, we get more and more of these "simple", "point-n-click" "easy-to-use" "interfaces" in programs like WordPerfect, PhotoGenics, and now Kylix. Does Unix still remain, under that pretty candy shell? Isn't this just pandering to the braindead lusers who lack the braincells to become Real Programmers? And if so, is it worth it?

    Last I heard, Linux was still for elite Unix gods. So why the attempt to dumb it down? Perhaps Borland is concerned that the average programmer is getting a bit too smart. By forcing their programs to be bundled with Linux, Borland will gain covted mindshare among the "geek" demographic. With a pointy-clicky interface in front of them, the IQ of these programmers will drop, on average, 27 points, forcing them back to a life of Visual Basic programming on Windows 2000, Enterprise Edition.
  • Okay, so Kylix comes out, everyone with Linux is able to compile their code in it, and wondows people are able to compile their windows code (minus API) on Linux. We can all agree this is fantastic, and anyone who has used any of Borland's fourth generation evnironments should know how good they are.

    Question: How many people will just kind of ignore it and continue plodding along with GCC and Make?

    -Effendi
  • Not quite the same thing.

    -- Keith Moore
  • It's not about yet another GUI, it's about an IDE (Integrated Development Environment).
    The nicety of it is that they're planning to generate (native) Linux applications from [Borland C++ and Delphi] source originally written to run
    on Windoze - we may see even more Linux ports.
  • I will continue to use Emacs as my IDE with g++ and GNU make. I'm not being elitist---these are the tools which make my job the easiest and fastest to do.

    You're missing the point. If you were to write a very GUI-heavy program for KDE or Gnome, would you still use straight g++ and something like GTK? Or would you want to use a very slick package that integrates everything like Delphi?*That's* the kind of thing that we're talking about here, not the Delphi IDE vs. Emacs.
  • This is one of the key pieces to the Linux puzzle that needs to be put into place for Linux to move up to the next level of acceptance. This will enable many more people to develop applications for linux, which will lead to more people using linux, which will lead to a larger market, which brings more commercial apps, which brings more people, etc...

    For those of you complaining that linux is just for the l33t people, let me remind you that no one is talking about taking your precious command line away. You can still gcc to your hearts content. This just lets other people enjoy the stability of linux as well. Sorry if you feel your exclusive little club is threatened.
  • The compiler is great indeed - but also Pascal is a language you can compile in one pass, versus several pass required for C or C++.

    It is also an order of magnitude faster than compilers like Free Pascal. It is extremely well-done.
  • Glade does this for free, lets you design GUI without having to wrote code. And whats even better is is totally free to use, even for commercial entities. Think the URL is http://glade.pn.org/

  • Re:But it's not free (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Oh come on... Free isn't always better. In the case of development tools, who gives a sh*t? If you want to open source your developed applications, then by all means. The tools themselves are irrelevant. Besides, Borland/Inprise have a tool that is worth every penny they charge, considering the amount of money a developer could make by using it. This attitude of "everything must be free" is a bit more than what open source is all about. People deserve credit for the work they do. Companies deserve the right to sell products. Open source should be about keeping these companies in check - showing them that they need not over-inflate their prices when we can do the same thing for free. Because of this, I say we should welcome commercial applications to our platform. They know as well as we do, that if they bloat the code and bloat the price, there are groups of us that will merrily say "No thanks", and write something equally useful. Thats hard to do under the Windows platform since most of the worthwhile APIs are hidden, and the OS is so obfuscated (sp?) to effectively write for. I say support things like this, don't turn them away.

  • Grab them here xyu.dhs.org [dhs.org]
  • Because I'll certainly at least try it when it comes out, assuming there's a demo version.

  • Death of Linux zealots imminent (Score:5)

    by Junks Jerzey ( 54586 ) on Wednesday June 07, 2000 @04:54AM (#1020124)
    This story, about Borland's upcoming Delphi for Linux, has drawn a very clear line in the sand between introverted Linux zealots and the people who are going to move Linux forward. I see endless responses like "Bah! I can just use gcc!" and "Only fools would use a RAD environment! Real Linux programmers will keep using gcc and an Emacs-based IDE."

    A fantastic--maybe the best--compiler and GUI development system is coming to Linux and we should ignore it? We should keep flogging ourselves until we remember that UNIX is The Only Way? What is happening here is that an elitist crowd with a confused agenda is suddenly being confronted with the painful truth that Linux development software is far, far behind what has been available for some other systems. This realization needs to be embraced, or we can never advance. We can only fool ourselves for so long.

    And, you know, this may make Linux difficult to differentiate from Windows. But hasn't that been the plan all along? I mean, we could have been devoting energies to desktop environments that aren't re-workings of Windows, right?
  • And rightly so. Qt is very professional piece of work which was obviously noted by people at Borland. VEry good decision on their part indeed.
  • How many apps with Visual C ??
    How about 90 % of all Windows software ( MS Office, Photoshop etc, etc ...)

    Are you sure we are talking about the same thing here ?
  • That's funny... looking through that guy's post you linked, I didn't see him mention ANYTHING about your IDE or how there is something wrong with it.

    He's saying that making Delphi and similar tools available for Linux is bad because it will make it easier to write bad software. Oh, you mean that he refers to RAD instead of IDEs? OK, you got me. My point stands.
  • Now the marketting flaks are promising "100% Windows compatibility" for Kylix.

    They aren't promising any such thing. Where did you hear/read that? They are saying that apps in Windows will be highly compatible with Kylix, but not "100%"

  • Re:Death of Linux zealots imminent (Score:3)

    by Otter ( 3800 ) on Wednesday June 07, 2000 @08:49AM (#1020129) Journal
    I will continue to use Emacs as my IDE with g++ and GNU make. I'm not being elitist---these are the tools which make my job the easiest and fastest to do.

    Nothing elitist about that at all - people should use whatever best fits their needs. What's elitist is people [slashdot.org] saying that there's something wrong with my using an IDE.
  • Yes, we're Linux users. We wouldn't be caught dead using Visual Basic. VB programmers are braindead drooling mouth-breathing idiots who wouldn't know how to code their way out of wet tissue paper.

    What's that? A Linux IDE? It looks a lot like VB?

    Cool!
  • Thus far, only one person in this thread has understood that when the poster said that the application isn't free, he meant the application doesn't preserve his freedom---and that person was moderated down! No one cares how much the program costs!

    This isn't any operating system. We have principles to uphold. GNU/Linux was based on the principle that the users have the same rights to the software as the developer or vendor. This is why community development is possible. This is why Kylix isn't a good thing.

    It is here to encourage us to give up what we have.
  • I suspect that it is a compatability mapping, there is a lot of code that expects the standard windows fonts to be around, not aliasing them you create unnecessary portability hassles.
  • The AC is absolutely right. Some of you people don't get it at all. :(
  • I attended one of the World Tour stops, and here is what I was told:
    • BDE went into maintenance as of Delphi 5. It was originally written as an interface for single-platform Paradox files, and grew into what must have been a crufty mess. It will not be ported to Linux; MIDAS is the preferred DB-connectivity scheme under both Kylix and recent versions of Delphi / C++B. BDE will remain in maintenance mode for the foreseeable future to maintain backwards-compatibility with a zillion apps.
    • CLX is designed as a wrapper for both Qt and GTK. If you read the Borland Community site [borland.com], there are papers there that describe Borland's POV as "We don't care what toolkit/desktop env/wm the user has on his / her system, and neither should you." Use CLX, and the Borland classlib will check to see what the user has available and present the app accordingly. Rev. 1 will work better with Qt than GTK, on the grounds that they had to start somewhere (and signed a contract with TrollTech). That contract also covers the development cost of using Qt for non-Open Source software, so long as you call CLX and not Qt directly.
    • The bosses at Borland have promised the staff that the "Inprise" name is going to go the way of Taligent and PeoplExpress.
  • Cool. I would not have even tried any of that in VB. I would have proceeded directly to C++ without passing Go or collecting $200. You win.
  • If I were a commercial developer and wanted to develop in a Windows-like environment, why would I buy this stuff? Kylix and Qt development licenses together probably cost more than an excellent Windows environment or even an MSDN subscription, and I end up working in a non-standard environment with less functionality.

    I would likely be better off getting the Windows tools, developing on Windows, and delivering my code on Linux using one of the free or commercial Windows compatibility libraries for Linux. For those who like that development style, MSDN is a really good deal (incidentally, I'm an MSDN member).

    OTOH, those of us who don't like the Windows development style use Linux precisely because the Linux development tools are different from the Borland/Microsoft style tools. In different words, if I thought Windows was better technically or for development, I would already be using it, and so would most other Linux users, I suspect.

  • Sorry, but I won't trust anything written by Borland marketting.

    I'm one of the ones who got burned (actually just a bit singed) with JBuilder. The box and ads for JBuilder Professional said it had "comprehensive printed documentation" -- which I rely on greatly, despite occasional bouts of tree-killing guilt. The actual box had two slim booklets, and most of the documentation was available only on the CD. You had to buy the $1000-plus Client/Server edition to get real the books.

    There was a big kerfuffle over this on the Borland support news-groups. The Borland technical staff who hung out on the support boards (mostly on their own time, I think) were amazingly sensible and helpful. Even the customer support people were helpful -- once you got past the drones who man the phone banks. They eventually shipped me the missing documentation for free. I was happy. Life went on. But when the next version of JBuilder came out, and I couldn't help noticing the ads and the box had exactly the same false claim of "comprehensive printed documentation".

    Now, I was very impressed with the product. I was impressed with the documentation (once I got it). I was impressed with the technical staff and the senior customer service people I interacted with. But the disconnect between these impressive people and the polyester suits in the marketting department seems to be growing rather than shrinking. Now the marketting flaks are promising "100% Windows compatibility" for Kylix. I can imagine the techies cringing and dreading the next deluge on the support news-groups.

    I'm sure Kylix will be an impressive product. But I'm afraid I'll have to wait for reviews by neutral third parties to find out what it actually does and what actually comes in the box.

  • I haven't seen anything from Borland suggesting 100% Windows compatibility, quite the opposite. Where are you seeing this claim, because there is no way in hell that claim will stand up?

  • Re:Unix is dead, long live Unix (Score:3)

    by dgph ( 107434 ) on Wednesday June 07, 2000 @04:54AM (#1020139)
    Point and click is very nice if you're a casual user of some piece of software. You don't want to have to read a massive manual just to do some small task.

    Though it's nice to have power user interfaces as well, such as scripting interfaces. I agree with you here. Traditional Unix programs, being command line tools, are inherently scriptable. Very few Windows programs are (one notable exception is MS Office).

    But Point and Click doesn't preclude the use of other interfaces in the same peice of software of course.

  • Do you think "he" passes the Turing test?
  • Just a correction...the screen shots are from Dr. Bob [drbob42.com] not Dr Dobbs [drdobbs.com] (magazine).
  • What good has visual programming environments provided for windows?

    Lots.

    Just this morning I wrote an app for my boss that lets him generate custom reports from the backend database of a proprietary program we use.

    Using C++ Builder, it took me 15 minutes. I could probably have done it in Access in an hour or so. Had I used a non-visual method, and just made API calls to create the GUI, I'd say this one would have tied up the better part of the day.

    Visual programming environments make the GUI design simple and let you concentrate on the actual problem you are trying to solve, instead of keeping track of the x,y coordinates of the corners of some button you're putting in a dialog box.

    how many useful apps have been made with something like delphi or visual c or whatever?

    Heh. Probably the vast majority of useful Windows programs were done in such an environment. Oh, you want a specific example, you say? Try VirtualDub [geocities.com]. It's a very high quality, very useful video capture and editing program that is GPL'd and written in, you guessed it, Visual C++.

  • Not 100% windows compatible (Score:3)

    by Casshan ( 4998 ) on Wednesday June 07, 2000 @05:08AM (#1020154) Journal
    I'm reposting this since it got buried under a troll, and there is some confusion here with compatibility with regards to windows..

    Bero-rh wrote
    The nicety of it is that they're planning to generate (native) Linux applications from [Borland C++ and Delphi] source originally written to run on Windoze

    Not quite. There is a an interview [exe.co.uk] with Chuck Jazdzewski, the chief architect of Delphi that explains Kylix and how it will or will not work with current Delphi Windows source.

    Specifically as far as Kylix and Windows source code compatibility he writes:

    Will existing applications that don?t touch the Win32 API just recompile with Kylix? What about components inherited from TCustomXXX classes - will these work ok?

    It is impossible to make a blanket statement that if you didn?t use this or did use that you will be compatible. There are too many variables. Our goal is make the porting effort to Linux easy for people who mainly use components to build applications. As for custom visual components, most will require significant changes from the component vendors. The component vendors? porting tasks will be much easier if the component writer neither subclasses Windows controls, nor handles exotic Windows messages, or if they avoid direct calls into the Windows API when a VCL equivalent is present (eg using TCanvas instead of calling GDI directly). Non-visual components, however, are much easier assuming the underlying API they are wrapping exists under Linux. A component wrapping the Berkley socket layer ports easily, but a MAPI component would not port at all.

    I anticipate the biggest obstacle people will face when porting their code is not how compatible the Linux VCL is with the Windows version, but collecting an equivalent set of Linux third-party components to replace those that they have been using on Windows. Because we realise how important this is, we have started to work with our third-party vendors early to get them porting their components so our customers will have a wide selection when we ship.
    ---
    So, at least for awhile, Delphi authors who want to work with both platforms will have to fork existing projects to get them to work with both OS's, and new projects will have to have a lot of platform-checking code.

    I still can't wait until this is released.

  • Re:Death of Linux zealots imminent (Score:3)

    by Jerky McNaughty ( 1391 ) on Wednesday June 07, 2000 @05:09AM (#1020155)

    "Only fools would use a RAD environment! Real Linux programmers will keep using gcc and an Emacs-based IDE."

    I will continue to use Emacs as my IDE with g++ and GNU make. I'm not being elitist---these are the tools which make my job the easiest and fastest to do. I haven't found an IDE yet which can match the flexibility of these tools combined with the standard UNIX utilities. Of course, I'm one of those people who runs X but only uses his mouse when in Netscape because I have keybindings for moving and shuffling windows and workspaces. Maybe I'm just weird.

    Of course, IDEs certainly have their place. If you can work better with one, then by all means, go for it. But don't assume that someone who refuses to use one is being elitist.

  • I've heard theories that many new users are using Linux not for the ideals of {free|open source} software or even because they like Unix, but just are tired of Windows

    And what's wrong with that? If it is the "freedom" that matters, we should encourage them to come over for their own good. But if you start imposing morality tests to ensure that new users think the same way you do, you have made a complete mockery of freedom.

    Hmmm, if they were able to choose to abandon Windows in favor of Linux, maybe they already had freedom to begin with?
  • But Free Pascal is based on GCC, meaning that it can target any platform that GCC can target, I believe. How portable is Borland's compiler?
  • Ahh yes I ubnderstand what you mean....

    But what I was meaning is that I've a terrible habit of working much more quickly when all the code is in a single .c file.

    Sometimes it takes a bit longer to compile... but then again I don't recompile very often

  • compiler? (Score:3)

    by jschauma ( 90259 ) on Wednesday June 07, 2000 @04:14AM (#1020194) Homepage
    I want to be the first to pedantically point out that this is not going to be a compiler, but rather a Develpment Environment, or, as Borland puts it, a "Rapid Application Development (RAD) development tool".

    -Jan

  • Kylix - A Unix For Kylie Minogue Fans (Score:3)

    by szyzyg ( 7313 ) on Wednesday June 07, 2000 @04:17AM (#1020198)
    At least that's what I thought when i read the name at first...

    a Bit Like E-Music, which makes me think of music that you have to take E to like. After enough MDMA most people would dance to a car alarm and enjoy it.

    Damn So much for staying on topic.

    But seriously, How many people feel that their programming would benefit from an IDE to help them keep track of variables and function names. I grwew up with assembly language and can't get my head around these environments which can end up second guessing the user. If I can't keep te whole of a project in my head I tend to get bored with it. That's the way i've always been...

    Personally - I wish I didn't need to write makefiles.

    ;-)
  • Pascal is in fact from the second part of the 70s, not the 80s. But then everybody use C which is even more backward and lower level (and from the 70s too). Python is fine for scripting but as far as system programming-heavy application goes it is a little short. I wouldn't code an optimised multithreaded-Web server in Python, but in Delphi I did it pretty quickly. Object Pascal is pretty good at being both low level enough to let you put assembler here and there and do low level pointer stuff, yet at the same time letting you code without even knowing what a pointer is and only manipulate objects and reusable components.

  • Re:Like, Finally and stuff (Score:3)

    by mmorin ( 30500 ) on Wednesday June 07, 2000 @05:34AM (#1020204)
    DISCLOSURE: I develop client/server application on Unix. I don't know much about DELPHI, and Windows in general, but I'm very interested to new technology and new development tool.

    Last month I went to the presentation of Kylix here in Boston. It took 3 hours, but it was worthed.

    I was impressed.

    First of all they presented Delphi on Windows. In less than 10 minutes an WITHOUT WRITING A LINE OF CODE, the speaker (actualy the team leader of Kylix development project) wrote a server, a client and a internet/browsable client.
    All the data was stored in a database (MIDAS I think). Queries and cross reference, multitable indicization... all done in couple of clicks.
    The DB engine has been available on Unix since years. Actually it came form a Unix product.
    The interface of both clients (the stand alone application and the browser one) were created with a couple of clicks. The data was exhcanged in XML.

    There was also an integration to a debugger (I saw it on C++ code) that was higlighting memory leaks, out of boundaris access, deferentiation of freed pointers and such (no more core dump inspections :( ).
    It remindem me a lot purify. It was able to point out also where the generation of the problem occured, not only where it crashed.

    The IDE was nice (too cluttered of controls but.. well it was windoze anyway). The generation of masks were nice and linking with data was a breeze.

    In 10 mins my jaws dropped a lot!

    The porting to Linux was first of all of the compiler. Smooth and line oriented. Delphi code compiled without a problem and it was FAST!

    The graphics was made with QT. The interface looked clean. They wrapped around the qt calls to their calls, so you can develop on both windoze and Linux without changing the code using Qt (well, if you do not do system calls).
    There should not be a problem to link the app to the desktop environment (KDE or such) but that will affect portability, and I do not know how to wrap environemt calls to Borland/Kylix calls.

    The licensing on QT was done by Borland so no problem using qt for commercial application.

    The Ide was not ready on linux yet, but .. well we saw it.

    All of this was for delphi but the conversion to C++ builder is going to follow shortly.

    At the end I'm looking forward to put my hands on it!

    Max

  • Re:database support (Score:2)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Borland have confirmed previously that data-aware controls will definitely be supported via a new-from-ground-up database layer which initially includes support for, at least, MySQL and Interbase (as it's another of their products). Or so i recall. Down the track we'll also likely see support for data access to their multitier "midas" framework and maybe their visibroker-related goodies. Time will tell but one thing is sure: they've learned their lessons from the BDE mess and will be certain to make their new layer lean & mean, open and extensible (as the VCL became in Delphi 3), which means that there will be a heap of support from third party vendors for any major database that borland don't support out-of-box. Eg tight integration with Oracle 8i or whatever.

    Personally I reckon databound controls suck for anything except quick disposable utilities, but there's big demand for such things in corporate circles - people forget that the S Q L spinning around Athena's head back in 1995 signified one of the major reasons for Delphi's success: it is dynamite for GUI intensive database apps. Delphi's visual IDE is far more productive than C++, and it's ObjectPascal language and blazing fast compiler are vastly superior to interpreted script for performance and maintainability.

    Delphi and C++Builder aren't for everyone or everything, but for those like me who find that GUI design and error handling end up being 90% of their code, Delphi's productive form design environment, extensible GUI component library, RTTI/exception support and blinding compiler speed provide exactly the solutions I missed when having to use C++ (which I really like too, but not for GUI-heavy applications).

  • What the hell's elitist about preferring emacs, g++ and make over a graphical IDE like this one? Seems to me that what you're comfortable using, that gives you the greatest power and flexibility, is what really counts. As long as you're not dissing anybody else over their preferences, nobody in his right mind could accuse you of snobbery.

    Now, me, if I'm getting used to a new language (and this is just different enough from the Pascal I learned in 198mumble that I'd call it "new"), the spiffy environment can be a godsend.

    This all underscores the underlying coolness of the Linux universe, which is that it can give you whatever you need in whatever way you want it.

  • i386 initially at least, but they have hinted that they are looking at other platforms and/or other *nix's.

    -- CP

  • For anyone wondering (Score:3)

    by RPoet ( 20693 ) on Wednesday June 07, 2000 @05:47AM (#1020212) Journal
    If you don't know what's going to be so cool about Kylix, here's an explanation [oreilly.com] from the author of "Delphi in a nutshell".
    --

  • good has visual programming environments provided for windows?

    Well, giving people who wouldn't otherwise be bothered to code something the impetus to do it afterall - since it takes a hell of a lot less time using Delphi than direct API calls, you're more likely to start that program. And while you will get a lot of half-baked programs from "weenies" you'll also get quality programs that wouldn't have otherwise been written.

    This is not an obnoxious question, I'm actually just making through now as an intern, and can get my jobs done faster by just using a commmand line anyways.

    What kind of program though? Sure I wouldn't use Delphi for anything non-GUI based, but you can knock out a useful mini-application in quarter of an hour with Delphi once you're used to it.

    The Linux solution to a graphical environment as far as I'm concerend is something along the lines of TCL/TK. Just put a wrapper around some decent code that already exists.

    What do you think the VCL is? It's a framework which is going to be based around the underlying GUI, wrapping it up in a consistent and useful way. And the VCL framework is a real pleasure to use, especially after most GUI frameworks (especially MFC, ugh).

    I'm into systems progamming, but how many, really, how many useful apps have been made with something like delphi or visual c or whatever?

    Loads, Goldwave is one which someone mentions above, a good soundwave editor with a lot of useful tools, I've used it a lot when doing music. Lots of companies use Delphi - I'm here at work using it at the moment :) You'd be suprised how many people use it - I know here in the UK Delphi 3 has been out on magazine cover discs for free.

    Have you ever used it yourself? If not, I really suggest you try it with an open mind. Delphi is a great tool, and what platform it runs on should be irrelevent.

  • I guess this means that Tradewars 2002 will be ported to linux then... i was written in borland turbo pascal, and the current owner of the code said that he would port it over as delphi was available for linux.
  • [SARCASM]
    It does already!!

    You can compile programs that will run on Windows 95, Windows 98, Windows NT 4.0, and Windows 2000. And for a marginal fee you can even get it to compile for Windows CE/Pocket PC!!!
    ( gotta love Microsoft for so many options!!! )

    [/SARCASM]

    Cheers =)
    Tenement
    --
  • But there's a compiler underneath. The Object Pascal compiler--part of Delphi--is an amazing piece of work. Compile time is zero on just about any machine. That is a huge, huge reason to choose Pascal over C++ for this sort of thing.
  • I bet you drive a free car - using free gas. You probably grow your own food because who would pay for food ?

    Just MS is expensive doesn't mean everything good is free. Sometimes you have to pay for something good. And Delphi is REALLY good - defenitely worth whatever price Borland will charge for it !

  • I'm pretty happy simply because I've been hoping for a Goldwave [goldwave.com] port to Linux. I contacted the author a couple weeks ago and he said that the Linux port was largely dependent on the Kylix project. Goldwave is a lightweight .wav editor with a bunch of nice features--something I think Linux could really use.

    Hopefully this will lead to a lot more Linux ports by other authors. Kylix is good for Linux.

    numb
  • How do the "simple", "point-n-click" "easy-to-use" "interfaces" hurt you?
    If you don't like them, don't use them.

    One of the niceties of Linux is that you can use text mode, vi and TeX as well as easy-to-use tools.

    The "idiots should be using an idiot OS" line of (un)thought is not quite valid - not everyone who doesn't know how to handle vi is an idiot, and not everyone who uses a computer should be overly technical.
    Today, virtually all books are written using computers - would you like to see your favorite writer's current work destroyed by a bluescreen? Or would you want him to spend a year trying to figure out TeX before writing his book?

    No? So, we need an easy-to-use tool for him on a reliable OS.

    If you don't want to use it, don't. Nobody is forcing these tools on you.
  • First off, this is not VB.

    First off, AC, I didn't say it was VB. I said the environment looked like VB. Does anyone doubt that Delphi's most direct competitor is VB? There's no VB in Linux, so they obviously hope to become "the VB of Linux". More power to 'em. They just won't be as l337 as the k-rad Perl hackers.

    VB on the other hand is rather limited in comparison, especially with databases.

    Please enlighten us with an example of something Delphi can do with a database that VB can't.

  • Given, a lot of work has been done on gcc, but Borland's compiler is faster, produces smaller code, and produces faster code. (I have seen benchmarks in windows that prove this, but cannot remember where they are right now.)

    With Borland's new compiler, gcc will have some more competition, and I *hope* that means more people working on it, or a new wave of development going into it.

    I love Borland's IDEs, and if this one is like Borland 5 I'll probably buy it just for that (I'm currently using VMware/NT4/Borland 5 for my C++ editing, then compiling with gcc on Linux). I also used VCL on C++Builder3 and it was _much_ nicer to use than MFC (IMHO). But Borlands C++ compiler is a bit buggy. Good overall, but there are a few problems. Hopefully those will be fixed in the new version, however.

    BTW, there are other compilers available. KAI C++ [kai.com] is a very nice compiler (no IDE or anything, just command line), runs on Linux, NT, HP-UX, Solaris, Tru64, AIX, Cray Unicos, and Hitachi machines. They also make Fortran compilers, IIRC. The Porland Group [pgroup.com] also makes F77, F90, C, and C++ compilers for Win32, Linux/x86 and Solaris/x86. I'm a bit suspicious of their ISO C++ compliance (they say they're compliant with cfront 2 and 3, which are ancient), but it's hard to say. Both of these have limited-time trials available (I've tried KCC and it's great, Portland's looks interesting anyway (automatic threading for up to 4 CPUs, automatic SIMD use on P-III, etc))
  • And I think I'd want both options to use when needed. So forcing everyone to use one or the other is a monumentally stupid move. IMHO.

    My goodnesss. One mention that Delphi might be the tool for some purposes and look at all the defensiveness. Why? If you re-read this thread, no one is saying that IDEs are bad across the board. In fact no one's talking about the Delphi IDE at all. They're talking about the GUI builder and compiler.
  • Trust me, there's enough of it already. Start clicking on random things on freshmeat and you'll see what I mean. Yeah, there's lots of good stuff, but OTOH there's a lot of bad stuff too.

    Of course. Sturgeon's Law: Ninety percent of everything is crap.

    Linux has been above the curve for some time now; I don't think we can expect it to stay there forever. Fortunately, the really good Open Source/Free Software that is out there now will still be out there when the signal-to-noise ratio drops.
  • Why ? simple : Delphi is much (several order of magnitude) better than any other available solution to design programs with GUI for Linux. I'm not saying gcc or whatever is not good - I'm saying that if you app is 90% GUI and 10% logic (like any user-friendly app should be), then it is a pain to do it with current tool, and a breeze to do it with Delphi.
  • I would completely agree with you - accept that from the screenshot I saw it appears the widget used by Kylix are the same is the one on Delphi/Windows. This would make porting Delphi apps a simple matter of recompiling (and rewriting low-level system stuff if you've got any)

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