Finally Real P2P With Brains

dfelznic writes: "The mp3 archives of CodeCon are now availble, which is news in itself. But what makes this real interesting is that they are being distributed by BitTorrent. BitTorrent allows users to download a file from multiple different people. Instead of everyone nailing one server, users get the file from other users. Furthurnet uses a similar technology to distribute legal bootlegs of concerts. The archive is available at the BitTorrent demo downloads page. As soon as I started downloading (cable modem) at around 300k I got a request for the file and began uploading at 40k. This could be the answer to the slashdot effect;) Now, who is going to be the first to complain about the use of mp3s instead of oggs?"

edonkey2k

[Anonymous Coward]

edonkey has been doing this for ages..

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

And this is new?

[Edgewize]

Could someone explain how this is different from FastTrack [fasttrack.nu] (Kazaa), eDonkey [edonkey2000.com], or the more reputable Swarmcast [opencola.com]?

Peer broadcasting is hardly something to write /. about, I'd say.

Re:Nice.

[stype]

furthur does use md5's to tell concerts apart. I've seen a lot of incomplete files on other programs with the same name that get mixed up with the complete ones, but furthur makes it really hard to access files before the download is done. It doesn't really get the files in order necesarily. Its possibly the greatest piece of code made my hippies since unix.

^^very true^^

[mill5ja]

They use hashes of the file to compair.

-jason m

Re:And this is new?

[PureFiction]

Sure. Fast Track is decentralized file sharing network where there is no guarantee that what you ask for is what you get. They may be codecon mp3's, they may be nasty midget porn incognito.

eDonkey likewise is more of a filesharing (aka, keyword search, then dowload hits) method.

Swarmcast is the closest relative to BitTorrent, but BitTorrent avoids the FEC encoding and cryptographically secure block verification in favor of a more centrally controlled broker that uses multi source downloading at various offsets to accomplish the same task.

In short, BitTorrent is a distribution system where a central server provides content, and peers requesting that content join a mulitsource downloading group where they also share offsets of data with each other (preferably) and download from the central server when necessary.

This isnt file sharing (really), this is content distribution in a fast and effective manner using peer networking concepts.

It is NOT a p2p Network people!

[Com2Kid]

It is a browser plugin (IE) that creates mini distributed networks based around a website.

So say you start downloading the latest Counterstrike patch from some server. Well you know how servers giving out the CS patch get filled up quickly.

Well if the users were running this program (plugins to IE, no restart neccisary, look if there is a {browser here} version yourself!) then when they started downloading somebody ELSE could start downloading FROM them.

No file synch issues (same file, same source) the server just re-directs future downloaders to current downloads and has the original downloaders forward the files along.

Wasn't Marc Anderseen's Company...

[AsbestosRush]

Loudcloud working on something like this for a little while... something called "bitcasting"?

BitTorrent

[Eloquence]

I'm sure Bram will notice his server being slashdotted soon enough, but let me say a few words in defense of BT anyway. What makes BT different from Morpheus and BearShare is that files are sent by users to each other, while they are still downloading. This way, the downloaders themselves act as backup. It's not simple multi-source downloading, but targeted towards content-providers who want to reduce load on a central server. In its advantages and disadvantages it's similar to Multicast. Good for high load for specific files at specific times. Kernel.org should use it.

eDonkey has the same feature (with some differences in the publishing process), but is really an application of its own, very file sharing oriented, closed-source and banner-supported. Not exactly what a content provider would want users to download before they can access his files. Still, ed2k has the advantage of a large user base, and also supports ed2k:// URIs that can be used on webpages.

SwarmCast is interesting, but the company behind it mostly died, and now it is somewhat in limbo. Its Java base has made it problematic as a desktop application. The only real alternative to BT is Mojo Nation, which is currently being reworked as "MNet".

If you want to know what CodeCon is all about, check the Feature box on infoAnarchy, we had some detailed coverage.

Re:And this is new?

[Edgewize]

OK, so it is similar to eDonkey but without the problematic public servers. And it is basically identical to Swarmcast, but less robust and potentially slower to complete a file. Both of those also support linking, though each in their own way - I believe that Swarmcast is through Java applet parameters, while eDonkey intercepts ed2k:... style links.

Just wanted to know where BitTorrent stood in the grand scheme of things.

Kazaa/Morpheous/eDonkey compairisons

[goofy183]

There seems to be a lot of people who really haven't read the site or understand how the technology works. Yes all those P2P filesharing utilities allow you to download the same file from multiple people at once, it's not all that impressive and many of the problems such as validating matching files and such have been worked out.

This solution is different in a few very large aspects. It allows a company to keep track of who is currently downloading a file from their webserver. This information is then sent to the clients who can start the P2P poriton of the process and download segments of the file from other users, releaving the load on the companies server. In contrast to those other P2P FILE SHARING programs which share all your files not just ones you are currently downloading. A system like this makes the file server not only the original source for that file but the P2P server to find other people to download that ONE file from.

I can see where people may not want their upload bandwidth being used by others. For this reason any site implementing this feature would probably end up having to provide the file for normal download. The selling point would be a possibly faster download for users of the technology.

I would personally love to see huge sites like FilePlanet put this to use. Granted it would only be truely usefull for sites that have a constant stream of concurrent downloads for a file at any point in time but it would be much better than having to wait 2 hours in line to download a file :-P

It's not a IE plugin

[icepick]

it's a helper app. You can build it for any browser that knows how to open a helper app for certain files.

Re:My experience with BitTorrent

[icepick]

As near as I can tell, they arn't using BitTorrent, which is a shame because it's perfect for just this.

I'd like to hear peoples's experiences

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm Bram Cohen, the author of BitTorrent. This little slashdotting seems to be going well so far from my end (over 40 downloads currently, and still going smoothly) but I'd like to hear about peoples's experiences doing the download. Here are some questions -

• Are you getting pauses where no download is happening? If you are, please be patient, it should kick up again (or start in the first place) after a while.
  
• Are you behind NAT? People behind NAT may be getting worse performance, it's a complicated issue.
  
• How's your upload/download ratio? There are enough people now that you may see the phenomenon of getting about the same download rate as your upload rate - Cutting off your uploads wouldn't help with this, your peers would just get pissed off at you and stop uploading (I'm not kidding, it has tit-for-tat leech resistance.)
  
• Did you run into any technical glitches? It's still fairly young software, so there may be a few little things to iron out.
  

So far, this looks like it's going pretty well. Any and all feedback is much appreciated, and will hopefully help make BitTorrent an even better product. Please mail me [mailto] about your experiences.

bootlegs : recordings :: crackers : hackers

[Wakko Warner]

Please, call them "legal live concert recordings", not "bootlegs". That's like saying "legal pirated MP3s".

- A.P.

Re:And this is new?

[Paradise Pete]

Now, I don't know how long BitTorent has been around

From the author's site [bitconjurer.org]:

BitTorrent has been created by me, Bram Cohen as a full-time project over the last eight months.

Re:eDoneky dudes!

[bonch]

If you're having problems finding valid files, try tracker sites like Gowenna/Sharereactor [sharereactor.com] and Filenexus [filenexus.com]. You can also find dynamic serverlists.

eDonkey's developers are aware of the network's current strain and are implementing a new p2p method for the next version.

Re:bootlegs : recordings :: crackers : hackers

[mark_lybarger]

just to clairify.

bootleg:

1. To make, sell, or transport (alcoholic liquor) for sale illegally.

2. To produce, distribute, or sell without permission or illegally: a clandestine outfit that bootlegs compact discs and tapes.

it was very hard to find someone using the term bootleg to not mean anything more than a live recording though. lots of people call even a bands released live album a bootleg. here's another definition i found, sorry no link, i could only get it on google cache:

"When someone tapes a show, that is called a live recording. When a company releases an unauthorized copy of that show, that is called a "bootleg". Bootlegs are usually found in compact disc form. However, a CD can only hold approximately 78 m inutes of recording time, forcing the bootlegger to cut songs out of long shows. In essence, a live recording will maintain the original, unadulterated full show while a bootleg version will have songs missing. In fact, they may even be out of order.

When individuals trade live recordings, no money is transferred or involved. However, when someone buys a bootleg, someone is making money--and usually a lot of money--off music that someone else wrote and performed."

Actually reasonable requirement, useful feature

[billstewart]

Some environments, like the Gnutella/Napster/Freenet things, have communities that hang around connected for a long time even if they're not downloading anything. But others, like distributing a new release of RedHat/Debian/Mandrake CDs, or even just Mozilla, have a lot of users who want to show up, download stuff, and leave. This feature makes it possible for them to be a temporary community providing services to each other without requiring longterm committment. If you download a CD using BitTorrent, you're useful for 95-99% of the time you're on line, rather than being consumer-only for the first 100% of the download time and having to hang around for another 100% of the time to be any use to anybody, so the community scales much more cleanly even if the first thing you want to do after downloading the latest Linux release is install it. (Software's a much different usage pattern than music here.)

Additionally, it makes it very efficient for the first set of people who are downloading the file. Instead of having to download the whole thing from one source, which is probably overloaded, you're able to download pieces from lots of different people. The server takes advantage of this - instead of giving Alice chunks 1, 2, 3, ..N in order, and giving Bob the same things, it spreads around the load, so Alice is downloading chunk 1 while Bob downloads chunk 2, and when they're done, Alice starts downloading Chunk 3 from the server and Chunk 2 from Bob, and other chunks from Dave, Eve, and Freddie if they've gotten them.

This also reduces the latency required for later people in the process to get their material - instead of waiting for the entire 600MB CD to be copied N times in a row, the downloading gets pipelined.

Re:I'd like to hear peoples's experiences

[XRayX]

1. Sometimes I get massive speed-drops (around 5 k/s), but no freezes until now.
2. I'm behind a NAT. May it be possible to configure an incoming-connections port?
3. Very Various. At The Moment it's 30 K/s down (max 90 k/s) and 7 k/s up (max 14 k/s).
4. No problems! Plugged in pefectly into IE.
Very good work so far. I'll try to set up set up some files later.
X

Re:"chaining" is DIFFERENT than "swarming"

[bramcohen]

BitTorrent does in fact behave generally the way you describe although it's a bit more sophisticated than 'anteloping'. The way furthurnet works, distribution always follows a tree, and the leaf nodes don't do any uploading. BitTorrent is much more mesh-like, with pieces pretty much flowing every which way across the network.

BitTorrent also makes extensive use of checksums, in what I'm guessing is the same way furthurnet does.

It's actually not too surprising that BitTorrent and furthurnet have a lot of similar features - they were both designed with etree in mind as a primary customer.

Re:Upload/Download ratios and ADSL

[bramcohen]

Yes, there is a general tendency for people to get about the same download rate as the upload rate they provide, due to the tit-for-tat algorithms. That's just a general tendency though, practical download and upload rates are dependent on many factors.

As to whether being on ADSL makes you 'guilty' I don't know, it's very non-judgemental software :-)