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Programming IT Technology

Finally Real P2P With Brains 237

dfelznic writes: "The mp3 archives of CodeCon are now availble, which is news in itself. But what makes this real interesting is that they are being distributed by BitTorrent. BitTorrent allows users to download a file from multiple different people. Instead of everyone nailing one server, users get the file from other users. Furthurnet uses a similar technology to distribute legal bootlegs of concerts. The archive is available at the BitTorrent demo downloads page. As soon as I started downloading (cable modem) at around 300k I got a request for the file and began uploading at 40k. This could be the answer to the slashdot effect;) Now, who is going to be the first to complain about the use of mp3s instead of oggs?"
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Finally Real P2P With Brains

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  • Nice. (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Renraku ( 518261 ) on Tuesday March 19, 2002 @11:16PM (#3191910) Homepage
    Nice idea, I have to say, but my biggest problem with file-sharing utilities is the fact that the file you're looking for isn't going to be the same with everyone. NudeCheerleader(part1).mpeg isn't going to be the same as NudeCheerleader(part1).mpeg on someone elses comp. There's not a way I know of besides implimenting CRC to prevent people from just renaming files into other things. Maybe NudeCheerleader(part1).mpeg is really GoatseLiveVideo.mpeg, just renamed.
  • Comment removed (Score:3, Interesting)

    by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Tuesday March 19, 2002 @11:26PM (#3191958)
    Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • Re:And this is new? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by mo ( 2873 ) on Tuesday March 19, 2002 @11:28PM (#3191970)
    They're marketing BitTorrent as a solution to web providers with bandwidth limitations. The client registers a mime-type so when you click on a BitTorrent download link it hands it to the p2p client which then downloads it from the network.
    The technology is nothing spectacular, but it's nice to see a simple install method that integrates nicely into the browser.

    One interesting side-effect of this implementation is that there is no searching. You only download stuff from BitTorrent if you find a link on a web page for it. However, without the requirement for searching, Freenet would be a great replacement for this role of browser-download accellerator. All you really need to do to implement this would be to provide a nice installation .exe of freenet that could parse a meta-file pointing to the freenet key of the object you wanted to download.
  • Re:Nice. (Score:2, Interesting)

    by ironfroggy ( 262096 ) <ironfroggyNO@SPAMgmail.com> on Tuesday March 19, 2002 @11:28PM (#3191971) Homepage Journal
    I think they compare other things, such as the extra info (title, author, etc) as well as dates and file sizes. I've seen (on morpheus, gnutella, etc) many times when the same filename comes up as seperate results.
  • Re:Nice. (Score:2, Interesting)

    by jerryasher ( 151512 ) on Tuesday March 19, 2002 @11:34PM (#3192002)
    I believe this is what Bitzi [bitzi.com] provides (or was supposed to?) -- a way to register files and lookup various pieces of information:
    With Bitzi:

    * You can look up descriptions, comments, and ratings about your files - or contribute such info yourself
    * Our precise digital fingerprints match info to exact files, so you can distinguish between similar files and search for the very best versions
    * Future file-sharing tools can assure you of a file's contents before you begin downloading
    * Infected or mislabeled files can be flagged, and so discovered or ignored before doing any harm

    The Bitzi catalog is an open resource built by a community of fans, developers, and creators. To get started:
  • by Wintersmute ( 557244 ) <Isaacwinter@EINS ... minus physicist> on Tuesday March 19, 2002 @11:43PM (#3192033) Homepage
    When you say p2p with brains, to me it means somebody has come up with a elegant balance between centralization and search speeds.

    Ditto, Holmes. The real question is the scalability issue [darkridge.com], and I'm not convinced that the traffic cop features implemented by Gnutella front-ends have really sorted this out.

    When that's the case, that will be some p2p with brains. Right now, the networks only seem to be hanging on because the critical mass of crash-inducing traffic hasn't hit the super-peers yet [com.com]; at least not on the permanent basis.

    What would really make my evening interesting is if someone would be kind enough to contradict me.
  • What about Gnunet? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday March 19, 2002 @11:43PM (#3192036)
    I'm very surprised at the little ammount of attention that GNUnet [purdue.edu] has gotten in the P2P arena. GNUnet is anonymous, distributed, encrypted, reputation based, has accounting, allows for distributed queries, and uses dynamic routing. While GNUnet is still beta software, I think it's a great anti-censorship tool. What all this means in non-buzzword speak, is that you have a tool that combines a lot of the great qualities from other similar networks (FreeNet, mojo nation, etc) and doesn't have all of the short comings. Give it a shot.
  • Red Swoosh (Score:2, Interesting)

    by metalhed77 ( 250273 ) <andrewvc@gmai l . c om> on Tuesday March 19, 2002 @11:53PM (#3192069) Homepage
    Red Swoosh is a cool technology specifically aimed at distributign the load for things such as images on a website. The client download for IE just involves clicking install and DLing a client that's a few 100kb. After which you mirror a portion of the site. www.deviantart.com uses this, and to good effect. I'm not sure if you can mirror large files on it. It is of course centralized.
  • by xenyz ( 144138 ) on Wednesday March 20, 2002 @12:19AM (#3192168)
    Mojo Radio [mojoradio.com], a Toronto area radio station ('talk radio for guys') uses something similar to do streaming audio. They use technology from ChainCast Networks [chaincast.com] to distribute the streaming of Windows Media broadcasts. It installs a little app in your Windows machine and runs whenever you listen to the stream.
  • Re:Nice BUT.... (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 20, 2002 @12:28AM (#3192205)
    The gnutella spec specifies the use of SHA, *NOT* CRC32 or MD5, as some others have recommended. Both of the latter two can be exploited to pass garbage by a check (with CRC32, you have some control over the content, even).

    MD5 is *not* suitable for ensuring that two files are identical when a malicious user is involved. It *is* suitable for ensuring that a malicious user may not hand you anything that passes but pure garbage (given what we know about MD5 today).

    CRC32 is totally unsuitable for any environments that could involve malicious users.

    SHA is the only common hash appropriate for this sort of problem.
  • eDonkey hashes files (Score:2, Interesting)

    by bonch ( 38532 ) on Wednesday March 20, 2002 @12:39AM (#3192228)
    You download file chunks from multiple people, and files can even have a completely different filename. All files are given a hash value to compare to.

    Speaking of good things about eDonkey, there is also forced uploads, meaning no losers cutting your downloads on you.
  • by bonch ( 38532 ) on Wednesday March 20, 2002 @12:42AM (#3192238)
    The next version of eDonkey is supposed to implement a new method of decentralization that requires no servers for search requests. I sure can't wait, since the current eDonkey network is beginning to succumb under the strain of its popularity.
  • by rubybroom ( 553599 ) on Wednesday March 20, 2002 @01:21AM (#3192387)
    I'm not completely versed in morpheus/kazaa/bearshare/whatever, but I understand they allow you to download a file from more than one other person simultaneously, known as "swarming" the download (btw, this is called "anteloping" on furthurnet). It is my further understanding that you can only do this from people who have the *complete* file.

    What bitTorrent (I think) and furthurnet (I know) are doing is different than this. If 5 people are downloading a file from the one person who is sharing it, those 5 people can be the beginning of 5 chains of people, relaying each packet down the chain as they get it, regardless of whether or not anyone has the complete file.

    Furthurnet uses a protocol called PCP (Packet Chain Protocol) to do this, and it automatically arranges the chains so that those with faster upload speeds are toward the top, with the dialup users toward the bottom.

    If the main host goes offline, even if no one on the chain has the entire file, everyone on the chain can still continue downloading everything that the topmost person on the chain has already saved.

    A good example: say a dialup user has large file that is in high demand. A T1 user comes along and spends a long time downloading it off of the dialup users horrible upload speed, and gets about 80% of it before anyone else comes to download. Then you show up with your cable connection and instead of being at the mercy of the upload speed of the dialup guy, you have access to 80% of the file from the plentiful upload speed from the T1 guy. And of course Furthur knows to hook you up to the fastest open slot available when you come along.

    The result of this is that the underlying host and network shape becomes transparent, and you just see a list of shows to download, you start downloading one, and all this stuff happens in the background. The longer everyone stays connected to the network, the more efficient it comes because it has more time to structure it with the faster folks in the "middle", and the slower ones on the "outside".

    Over at furthurnet, the current record is having 71 people on a downloading chain. Combine PCP with the Anteloping and you can have some serious improvement over "dumb" p2p.

    I wont even go into the benefits of the md5 checking furthur does...

  • by billstewart ( 78916 ) on Wednesday March 20, 2002 @01:25AM (#3192400) Journal
    If you're shipping around small files, like MP3s, there are lots of transfer systems that can do the job. But the Lossless Compression movement for music means that a concert tape is typically a few hundred megabytes large, maybe 1/3 the size of the uncompressed original, so it takes much longer to download, just as ISOs for Linux distributions are large. In that environment, you can't always depend on connections being up for a long enough time, so you need to be able to download parts of files, and swarming systems like BitTorrent help a lot.
  • beware (Score:1, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 20, 2002 @02:45AM (#3192729)
    BitTorrent is...suspect. Even worse, its creator is a bit much. Please see, on the same site, http://bitconjurer.org/a_torturers_account.html [bitconjurer.org] and http://bitconjurer.org/it_happened.html [bitconjurer.org]. This Bram Cohen is One Sick Fuck [bitconjurer.org].
  • by bramcohen ( 567675 ) on Wednesday March 20, 2002 @05:49AM (#3193111)
    How the hell is it that my upload is working at all? I'm on a network so private that it's scary.
    BitTorrent connections are bilateral, so you're able to both upload and download on all connections you have to your peers, regardless of which side initiated them. Your uber-NATing keeps anyone else from connecting in, but once you establish a connection out it can send in either direction.
  • by osolemirnix ( 107029 ) on Wednesday March 20, 2002 @06:34AM (#3193173) Homepage Journal
    How will tit-for-tat leech resistance work if someone has an Asynchronous DSL connection? If my download bandwith is 768 kbps but my upload bandwidth is technically limited to 128 kbps (as is common with many DSL offers for private home users), will the leech resistance feature think I'm guilty?
  • by kaiidth ( 104315 ) on Wednesday March 20, 2002 @02:09PM (#3195082)
    Well, that's somewhat less than optimal for those of us with lousy slow upload.

    Additionally, maxing out my upload kills downloads entirely, all the way to timeouts (cable connection) - turns out that if I cap uploads at about 5/6 max upload speed, I get normal looking download speed. But another 2k upload and downloads die completely. Looking at the comments further up this page, I can see that other people have had this problem and some have found solutions, so I'll take a look at some of those. But perhaps it wouldn't be an entirely bad idea to consider allowing people to cap uploads at something less than the absolute maximum speed, since otherwise, at least in my case, this software is about as much use as a DOS attack.

    Cheers.

The use of anthropomorphic terminology when dealing with computing systems is a symptom of professional immaturity. -- Edsger Dijkstra

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