Another J2EE vs .NET Performance Comparison 533
Starting yesterday, we received a bunch of story submissions about a
performance comparison between J2EE and .Net. It didn't seem all that exciting, and we sort of ignored the story. But as usual, it appears that some people take issue with the methodology and conclusions.
Performance isn't most important (Score:4, Interesting)
Save your time (Score:1, Interesting)
Basically, nothing to see here.
Oh, one interesting fact, "the
Re:Save your time (Score:3, Interesting)
Infringement.... (Score:1, Interesting)
Can someone explain this so I can read the article later?
I'm just looking for Python/Qt benchmarking.
J2EE, EJBs vs "JSPs" (Score:3, Interesting)
EJB makes it easier to have physically seperate tiers, and adds enough systems-needed overhead that you'll probably need 'em...
Benchmarks for tasks with N-number of variables... (Score:4, Interesting)
Lies, damned lies (Score:3, Interesting)
Furthermore, if Yahoo moves from C++ to PHP for the majority of their Web applications, I think that's saying something. Perhaps J2EE and
Regus Reporting? (Score:3, Interesting)
Abstraction at nauseum (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Performance isn't most important (Score:4, Interesting)
Whether or not it _actually_ matters is a whole other ball of wax, but I contend it still does. We're not a big business by any stretch of the imagination, but we need 20 servers to handle the load we do (400-600 'requests' per secondwith each request resulting in anywhere from 2 to 4 additional connections made for each request generated)
You might try rewording: In the *majority* of cases where people are selecting platforms, performance is not always the #1 issue.
That might approach the truth, but to say performance only matters if it sucks assumes you can afford the hardware to meet your demand with room to spare on the first day you go live. In enterprise applcations (lots of customers) and high load applications (less customers but each customer generates tons of load - like an ad server), performance is _exactly_ where you're going to make or break your ability to supply the demand without buying the Noah's Ark of hardware.
performance of programmers (Score:3, Interesting)
Therefore, it is much better to compare how both technologies help individual programmers as well as their teams to work faster and to produce a code with less errors (debugging time and QA resources). That would be a function of how API is structured, how concerns could be separated, how customizable code can be and will programmers tend to hardcode "business logic" riles.
Does anyone know such comparison of J2EE and .NET?
Incompetance (Used old version of PetStore) (Score:1, Interesting)
Any new EJB programmer knows that BMP EJBs perform poorly and require a lot more code than CMP EJBs.
Any new EJB programmer would have used a current version of the PetStore as a base which uses CMP EJBs.
Any new EJB programmer would have used JDK 1.4 instead of JDK 1.3 for the tests.
Any rational programmer would not compare an old version of the Java EJB API with the next Beta version of
This is just scratching the surface.
You've got it reversed. (Score:5, Interesting)
Did you intentionally reverse the figures? The
Why not go to the source [middleware-company.com] and draw your own conclusion. I looked at the report and it seemed more than fair. This was a straight up "best practices vs. best practices" competition, using Sun's recommended coding standards.
It is helpful to note that this is the second such test that The Middleware Company performed. The Java folks squawked because the
In my opinion you can pin the blame squarely on EJB's. They are bloated, the environments are a royal pain to configure, and they are S-L-O-W. Sun recommends that people use them, so it's totally fair that it was used against them in this comparison.
Hate Microsoft if you want (I do), but you can't wear blinders and ignore the competition. J2EE blows. Get over it.
Error rates (Score:3, Interesting)
Incidentally, all this stuff was run on Windows 2000. Somebody should try it on Linux.
I'm just waiting. (Score:3, Interesting)
It's even more convincing in reading the article posted in the link (the "review" that is). Basically it was bringing up how the lines of code count was not correct because J2EE could have done a better job. Bah, that's a silly argument. LOC can't just be brushed off because it really does have something to do with the cost. More lines of code isn't just for "lazy programmers", it's also a factor when you have to think about MAINTAINING that code.
However, I do buy the argument about not using the "latest and greatest" J2EE. So, I get back to my original point.. I'm just waiting for the next benchmark.
So since the author complains about the PetStore app as being such a bad design, how about coming up with a new one and then comparing those? It seems to me like, no matter what, the author of the article doesn't believe
Re:Paid for by MS (Score:1, Interesting)
Jackal Feed (Score:2, Interesting)
1. Two J2EE platforms by major vendors were tested. One really sucked for air (yeah, tell me performance doesn't matter!). Who were the vendors, all you Java experts reading between the lines? Would you buy that system?
2. I understand that the
Chew on this for awhile...
Re:Hot News Flash -- Java Slow! (Score:3, Interesting)
Of course Microsoft will be happy about the results, but think of it this way: Why would Microsoft have spent the money to build
So let me ask you this: Where is the comparison that shows Java being faster?
Let me also ask you: Who would decide not to use Stored Procedures if they were available?
Re:Incompetance (Used old version of PetStore) (Score:3, Interesting)
Except that their "appserver B" - read IBM's feet-dragging WebSphere AS - doesn't support them yet. So they didn't use them for "appserver A" - read BEA WebLogic Server - either.
Rather, they should have changed the Java PetStore implementation to closer match the .Net version. By replacing entity beans with far simpler "data access objects" they would have removed that bottleneck.
Or used JBoss 3 + Tomcat 4 (+ Axis 1.0?) instead of WebSwear...
Any new EJB programmer would have used JDK 1.4 instead of JDK 1.3 for the tests.
Except that their "appserver B" - read IBM's feet-dragging WebSphere AS - probably doesn't run on it yet. And WLS 7.0 probably has "issues" with it.
Re:Some of us (Score:3, Interesting)
As Microsoft stated with the first one: Before all of the anti-Microsoftarians (of which Slashdot offer a tremendous number) slam this, GO AHEAD AND MAKE A SUPER OPTIMIZED PET SHOP APPLICATION ON THE PLATFORM OF YOUR CHOICE. The Java community, in this case, seems amazingly capable of criticizing this review, while failing to offer alternative proof.
Re:Performance isn't most important (Score:3, Interesting)
I look forward to seeing what words you point into my mouth in your next response.
Re:Hot News Flash -- Java Slow! (Score:3, Interesting)
The other part that seems rigged, but less directly attributable to MicroSoft, is what sounds like really poorly coded J2EE. I'd really never consider paying TMC for any services, given their claim of expertise and the mistakes made in "fully optimizing" the J2EE version of the app.
Fix it then! (Score:2, Interesting)
Everyone here is all bothered that MS was able to work on their version, but that Sun wasn't asked to do the same for its version.
Sun can take both the code used in the
If they choose not to do so, or are UNABLE to do so, then we know which is better FOR THIS PARTICULAR TYPE OF WEB APP.
Middleware did GREATLY improve the performace of the J2EE app, but there are obviously quite a few flaws in their design (from the comments). So someone who is pissed off about this should stop wasting their time ranting about it and correct the problem, then publish the code and the benchmarks.
Re:Are there any reviews that show the opposite? (Score:4, Interesting)
http://otn.oracle.com/tech/java/oc4j/pdf/9ias_n
In Oracle's study, they achieved results that were as much as 22x faster than
Re:The sad thing is... (Score:3, Interesting)
Realistically, though, we're talking about internet application development platforms here, not basic human rights. Being all high and mighty about not uing
Re:Some of us (Score:2, Interesting)
Sun has promoted the PetStore application as an example of Java best practices, and how to implement a Java ecommerce site. Whether they are really trying to make it so burdensome that extra Sun servers are required is beyond the point: It's an example of how Sun recommends that an ecommerce site be implemented in Java. It seems entirely relevant to me.
Even if there exists a "UPER OPTIMIZED PET SHOP APPLICATION" it's doubtfull they would have used it and optimising the current app would kill it's usefullness as a teaching aid.
You have got to be kidding.... If Sun, who hold their own responsibility for putting their platform in the best light (the whole BS on here as if Microsoft should go to great lengths to polish Sun's code is just hilarious), could make a optimized PetStore application, you don't think they would have? They would have it slathered all over the net, and every anti-Microsoftarian would be screaming it from the highest mountaintops (indeed, I'd wager that many of the same busily tried to make just such an example after the last hoopla...strange that we never heard from them). Mind you of course they'd put haughty disclaimers about how they'd whored down the design to Microsoft's standard, but they'd readily do it.
The Java PetStore was never a benchmark (Score:4, Interesting)
Here's the basic story.
Once upon a time, Sun wrote a sample application, called PetStore, as a demonstration of various capabilities of the J2EE platform, and various techniques that might be helpful when writing J2EE applications. As such, it was deliberately over-engineered. A tiny shopping site doesn't need all the techniques they threw at it, it was just a context in which to deliver examples of coding pratices that might be useful in other situations. It was example code.
Speed wasn't a goal. Keeping the LOC low was counter-productive to an application which is basically an example of different coding techniques.
Microsoft saw this, and realised they had a cheap marketing opportunity. By rewriting the Pet Store in .NET, with completely different goals (speed and low LOC), they could score points just by issuing press releases. It's the marketing equivalent of saying "Hey! Our car is smaller and faster than your truck!" It's true, but meaningless.
No matter that it was an apples to oranges comparison. No matter that the Pet Store could be rewritten in Java [ibatis.com] using Open Source frameworks with about the same number of LOC by one guy in his spare time. This is marketing, not reality.
Charles Miller
Re:Final Conclusion (Score:3, Interesting)
First Entity Beans were good - and now they are bad. What other surprises can we expect? Who should an average Java programmer believe?
Re:Performance isn't most important (Score:4, Interesting)
Why No JVM On Windows Test? (Score:2, Interesting)
What I'd really like to know is why TMC didn't test J2EE on the same Windows OS they tested .NET on. Were they getting paid to bash two opponents at once (Linux, J2EE)? If they really wanted to test J2EE, why not JUST test J2EE?
Re:Performance isn't most important (Score:3, Interesting)
Originally I said web servers aren't expensive because most performance problems can be solved by throwing hardware at them, which tends to be an appropriate solution for web-based applications, thus the current popularity of the 'rack of 1U webservers, and a fast db box' configuration, or some similar variant.
P.S. If you want somebody to refrain from referring to you as a fucking retard, try to engage in a debate, instead of just flinging shit around like a retarded monkey.