The Little Coder's Predicament

An anonymous reader writes "There's an interesting article on Advogato about the world of computing that kids today find themselves in compared to the world that kids in the 80's found themselves in. Learning to program in the 80's was simpler because the machines were more limited, and generally came with BASIC. Now we have Windows, which typically comes with no built-in programming language. What can be done to improve the situation?"

Wrong

[borgdows]

Now we have Windows, which typically comes with no built-in programming language

Windows comes with VBScript built-in!

er..can I really call it a programming language? ;)

Windows comes with programming tools!

[groman]

What, did you forget about "debug"? Man, kids these days. Go to Start->Run...->"debug". There, learn! :-)

Re:If this is not the first post...

[Anonymous Coward]

Start shaving, buddy.

Tough choice

[BabyDave]

No programming language ... or BASIC.

I won't put in the obligatory Dijkstra quote, because by the time I finish this sentence, about 200 people will have posted it already.

Oh, what the hell:

It is practically impossible to teach good programming style to students that have had prior exposure to BASIC: as potential programmers they are mentally mutilated beyond hope of regeneration. -- Dijkstra

You Meticulous Rapscallions

[madcoder47]

Bah!

All you people do is whine and whine about languages!

Back in my day, I had a bunch of OR and NOT gates and some solder. When I was very good, my parents would buy me an AND gate for my birthday. Those were the days.

Teach 'Em Young

[Anonymous Coward]

I knew a guy who planned to teach his kid to count in hex before teaching him base 10. That, and he was going to give the kid instructions in x86 assembly.

Kid:Can I have some candy?
Dad: xor ax,ax
Kid:But Dad...
Dad: mov corner,you

Re:Two words

[Anonymous Coward]

>Two words (Score:1)
>by tomRakewell (412572) on Wednesday June 11, @11:04AM (#6171157)
>Python

Dude, that's only ONE word.

Two words would be Monty Python. ;-)

Re:Yet another reason for BSD/Linux

[larko]

If you want him or her to really play... make sure it's not the computer YOU use ;)

Re:Tough choice

[NixterAg]

...and this gem for you COBOL fans out there (yes, both of you):

The use of COBOL cripples the mind; its teaching should, therefore, be regarded as a criminal offence. (Edsger Dijkstra)

Re:Create a simple learning language...

[Lord_Slepnir]

some sort of learning language to get the kids hooked when they are young.

The scene: In a park with a lot of little kids around

(stranger dressed up like Bill Gates in a trenchcoat): Hey kid, I got something for you
Kid: What
Stranger: It's the good stuff...(holds out a box labeled 'GW-Basic#'
Kid: I don't know. My daddy told me that stuff is bad for you...it causes you to get fat and pimply and never get a date
Stranger: That's a lie! Come on. First taste is free (holds out box further)
Kid: Well, ok....

Re:Wrong

[mAineAc]

you mean VBScript errors built in don't you?

Do you really want to ask this Q on Slashdot?

[duffbeer703]

The answer is Linux!

Make sure to impress on the children that SCO is bad at an early age too!

Re:You Meticulous Rapscallions

[loucura!]

Bah! You nancy-pants youngsters... in my day, All I had was a stick and some toroidal stones... and by golly we liked it.

Durn kids and their durned electricity...

Re:Give them GNU/Linux, not windoze

[sir99]

Give them a full GNU/Linux install. It will include gcc, glibc, autoconf, etc..

You'd inflict autoconf on children!?! You animal!

Microsoft rep replies

[tuxathon]

At Microsoft, we support the hopes and dreams of the world's youngsters. That is why we have chosen not to include useful programming languages with our Windows product line. We feel that children from all walks of life would benefit from working hard, saving like misers and purchasing an enterprise licence for the .Net Studio.

With great regard,
Rippen M. Anueone
Microsoft Sales Department

Re:Tough choice

[roman_mir]

Oh, that's a great comment, only here is an example for you: I was 12 when my grandmother got me a book on BASIC. I did not have a computer, did not even have access to a computer, but I really liked that book (it was written in a really cool style, it was a kid's story where the reader would have to learn BASIC as the story progressed in order to solve puzzles, and solving puzzles was necessary to understand the story) and I wanted to try programming.

So I wrote my first programs on paper in BASIC. I traced my programs by hand and I created input/output tables. I created subroutines with precise definition (pre and post conditions and error handling.) I wrote labyrinth and robot games on paper. It was exciting but I did not have a computer. When I finally got access to Atari 600 and 800 computers I adopted the programs that I wrote for generic BASIC to the BASIC that was built into those machines. The programs worked. I am 27 now, I work as a systems architect I code in dozens of languages, I create architecture documentation, I solve problems and people look up to me for solutions.

So I don't find that statement to be applicable in every single case.

Re:Java

[Jester99]

I'd introduce... emacs (in order to have the simplest possible environment)

Hmm. You're one of those people to whom the dashboard of a 747 is "simple," aren't you. :)

"Daddy? How do I compile?"

*sigh* For the last time, Bob, M-L, M-X, C-M-K, "make", esc-esc-return...

Re:Second hard disk + Linux

[saintan]

Then get the kid a second car....jeeesh!
I've been wiring stereos and cleaning carbs since I was 12!

I know the answer:

[yalla]

Ship a free zx80 prototype board with every copy of Windows. :-)

SCNR, Alex.

Re:Second hard disk + Linux

[BlackHawk-666]

and yet you'd let your 12 year old code in Perl? Aw, c'mon, show the poor little tyke some mercy and at least let him start with a structured and easy to learn language first.

Perl

[pergamon]

Introducing programming to a kid with Perl would have to qualify as child abuse.

[That being said, I use Perl wherever possible ;)]

Scheme IS practical, you insensitive clod!

[brlewis]

it's Scheme....get them something a bit more practical

I program professionally in Scheme, you insensitive clod!

(Seriously, I do.)

Re:A couple places to start

[Anonymous Coward]

> My kids are gonna use Unix and they're gonna like it

Your poor kids are gonna get beat up a lot.

Linus

[Alpha_Nerd]

I remember reading that Linus used to program games in machine code when he was a kid(can't remember what system that was...)

I'd pay to see a kid(or anyone) do that today.