The State of OpenGL 273
CowboyRobot writes "No longer vapor, but a true 3D-embedded engine, OpenGL is on the move. Pixar and others would love to be able to render their movies in realtime, and that desire has prompted the intended release of OpenGL 2.0, due in a few months. Khronos is now in charge of further extending OpenGL to cellphones and handheld gaming devices."
Pixlet (Score:0, Informative)
Ummmm......Pixlet [apple.com].
Re:Pixlet (Score:5, Informative)
Re:OpenGL is Dead (Score:5, Informative)
I don't know about availability, OpenGL is cross-platform (works on OS X, Linux, Windows, etc.) while DirectX is Windows only. OpenGL is also included with many if not all graphic cards. So it's just as widely available, if not more, than DirectX.
Re:OpenGL ES with hardware support? (Score:2, Informative)
as it is only a subset of the opengl standard trimmed for low power/low speed devices it is (or will be) also fast in software. afaik there are also hardware renderers for opengl es in the works.
and remember:
we hat 3d games long before the gigahertz pcs with 3d accelerators were out and they were a tiny bit faster than 1 frame/second.
my interest fwiw (Score:4, Informative)
these simulations are done on beowulf clusters (imagine that!) so I think opengl is the best (the only other API I know of being directx)
OpenGL 2 (Score:5, Informative)
Re:OGL alone is not enough for gaming (Score:3, Informative)
Or should I say, when I port it to Mac OS, since that's my job. I wish I had the slightest idea how his engine worked... He has all sorts of complicated code that compiles fine on his x86, but is gcc-unfriendly.
Re:Pixlet (Score:0, Informative)
There is a bit of lunacy afoot; start looking at the troll postings, then at these people's journals, and you discover that there are "troll rings".
Their evil (no, actually boring and stupid) plan:
* come up with cheap and easy ways to get modded up (karma whoring).
Ways to karma whore include: These posting the article text early on, stealing people's posts far down in the discussion and reposting on an earlier thread, and reposting comments from other people on other threads with similar topics.
* a bunch of trolls simultaneously get moderator points
* in a coordinated fashion, they label on-topic posts as offtopic and attempt to steer the whole discussion in absurd directions, usually by recycling troll and flamebait posts that have worked in the past.
These people are sad and lonely. I feel sorry for them. Maybe someday they'll feel the joy of accomplishing something that most would appreciate and call constructive. Otherwise, I fear that they'll eventually discover the wonders of heroin.
Re:Pixlet (Score:1, Informative)
so if something uses the word "rendering" in it, it's on topic.
3d rendering is one thing.
video rendering is something completely different.
they are as different as me "rendering" something in charcoal on a napkin.
but hey..if yelling at moderators gets you points...don't let me stand in your way.
Re:Pixlet (Score:2, Informative)
You may want to look up the definition of "rendering" ("The process of creating an image (on the screen or some other medium) of a model".
Pixlet has nothing to do with rendering except as a working format for the already rendered images. The article is talking about OpenGL, a 3D API, which is suitable for rendering, not about what happens with the rendered pictures (which could be compression [google.com] with pixlet).
On a related note.. (Score:5, Informative)
Jul 09th 2002: Microsoft Claims IP Rights on Portions of OpenGL [slashdot.org]
Jul 11th 2002: 3D graphics world shaken by patent claims [zdnet.co.uk]
Jul 13th 2002: Microsoft patent claims may affect OpenGL [macworld.com]
Mar 3rd 2003: Microsoft quits OpenGL board [theregister.co.uk]
Re: OpenGL 1.5 (Score:2, Informative)
About Tribes 2, its Linux port wasn't very good and it choked from time to time for no real reason and Torque engine doesn't have this problem. The real history of Torque is that it came about right after Tribes 2 was released and GarageGames company was formed which are several former Dynamix Employees (even the founder is the founder of the company) working at GG. Torque Game Engine I have to say is far better than the old Tribes 2 engine (if you worked with Tribes 2 and then Torque you would know exactly what I mean by it).
Anyway the engine is pretty good in my opinion and as a note to those Quake lovers Torque doesn't do BSP structures for the whole map. It has a true terrain system that goes on forever and no it doesn't loop all the way around (but I've seen mods pull this off
I guess I've talked my head off long enough and put several readers to sleep, sorry. Check out the site for yourself and maybe consider getting a license (please read the license agreement before forking over cash for it since I've seen many people ask questions about the license AFTER they bought it!)
gl pipeline not for raytracing (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Damn them (Score:2, Informative)
First, they still sell black and white portable computers today, they've just shrunk; before they were 5-pound portables, now they're quarter-pound Palms.
Second, battery life, both for portable phones and portable computers, has been on the increase, not the decrease. My portable computer from the mid-90s (black and white, even) was lucky to get two hours. My giant, power-sucking G4 with a full-color 3D-accelerated screen is unlucky to get three hours; I can get five hours on light use. My girlfriend's full-color-screen, MIDI-playing, Java-gamed cell phone lasts for four days between charges. I see no reason for this trend to reverse; indeed, people tend to value battery life extremely highly, and so manufacturers value it accordingly highly.
OpenGL | ES is not OpenGL (Score:5, Informative)
Re:OpenGL 2 (Score:3, Informative)
BTW, have you actually programmed for ATi's GLSL implementation lately? It's improved a lot over the last few months, and it's very usable at this point. I can't give details due to an NDA, but expect ATi's implementation to be at 1.0 very soon.
Re:gl pipeline not for raytracing (Score:5, Informative)
The notion that Pixar would use OpenGL for final rendering if only it were fast enough comes up every time a new video card or GL enhancement comes along just indicates how little people understand how Pixar actually makes their films. Oddly, Pixar really doesn't make this information much of a secret, and they'll even sell you the same software they use.
Re:To my understanding... (Score:4, Informative)
Re:gl pipeline not for raytracing (Score:3, Informative)
Technically, no. Renderman (the Pixar renderer) does not perform ray tracing. It uses a scanline renderer that is much faster than any ray tracer I've ever seen. They've been at this for literally decades, and are very good at it. Still, the most complex images in their movies can take many hours -- sometimes more than a day -- to render. The time-to-render doesn't seem to improve much from picture to picture because as computers get faster, they just add complexity to the scene.
Re:OpenGL ES with hardware support? (Score:2, Informative)
It was also determined that most of that sort of functionality was not needed. Other things like 1D and 3D textures, attribute stacks, display list etc are just non existant. On the other end, there are things that never existed in OpenGL, such as the fixed point maths support, along with defined accuracy measures etc.
In the beginning, OGL-ES had two primary targets - small footprint mobile devices, and safety critical markets (ie avionics displays etc). In the former, they needed basic functionality, but enough to do things like overlays and texturing. In the latter, they needed a very small API footprint that can be verified IAW with various authorising bodies (eg FAA for avionics, NIH for medical devices etc). In both cases, a miniGL driver was just not good enough because miniGL still assumes the full OpenGL spec and only for one particular application. Both groups required a formalised spec that they can point to and claim "this is what we support", complete with some logo branding. miniGL still assumed a desktop based system, neither of the target groups for OGL-ES could make a lot of those assumptions (for example floating point abilities at all)
FWIW, I was a member of the ES spec development group until about 3 months ago and still am on the spec mailing lists.
Re:Java on top of OpenGL is happening... (Score:2, Informative)
Re:my interest fwiw (Score:3, Informative)
Anyway, since you use IDL on a Beowulf I'm assuming they finally added multithreading. That's good, when I used it before my PhD (I'm doing condensed matter physics now, but used IDL at my research job prior to this) there was no multithreading in IDL, which was kind of annoying at the time.
IDL is good at visualization, and the interactive mode is really nice, but I would avoid using it directly for actual intensive calculations. But if you have alot of code written already, check out the external development guide, it's not that hard to link to external C programs. I did that to call low-level hardware IO routines, and run the high-level data-acquisition code from IDL w/ GUI and the niceness of IDL's display routines.
Re:OpenGL 2 (Score:2, Informative)
They will be added to OpenGL 2.0.
Re:OGL alone is not enough for gaming (Score:3, Informative)
The core engine itself mainly contains only a few pieces that are common to most genres: graphics management (which is then passed off to a renderer of your choice), UI element handling, collision detection, and the like.
The engine also has built-in scripting and a console mode (where the game pauses and you can enter commands as if part of a script, which is very cool, and very useful for debugging - stuff like SET_X PLAYER 120... and yes the console can be disabled)
Re:gl pipeline not for raytracing (Score:1, Informative)
Re:gl pipeline not for raytracing (Score:5, Informative)
Presentation [ibiblio.org]
ASHLI [ati.com]
GPGPU [gpgpu.org]
More than Moore's Law [geek.com]
Moore's law : still for wimps [extremetech.com]
Using programmable graphics hardware (possibly through OpenGL) for final rendering is not that far off. (Definitely not in real-time, but as a more cost-effective way to do it, anyway.) Especially with the massive parallelism of rendering, and the fact that GPUs are far outpacing CPUs in terms of their speed and transistor counts.
OpenGL is much more similar to micropolygon rendering (REYES) than it is to raytracing in the first place. The shaders are where you spend all of your time, anyway.
Heck, do you think nVIDIA bought ExLuna (Larry Gritz, author of BMRT, and former Pixar employee) just for the fun of it?
Software for translating from RenderMan Shading Language to Cg?
And what about RenderMonkey supporting RenderMan?
Do you even remember PixelFlow [unc.edu] from Pixar? Do you see the name Marc Olano on that paper? The same Marc Olano who talks about rendering on consumer-level graphics hardware? These things have far more in common than you seem to realize.
Re:To my understanding... (Score:3, Informative)
SDL and OpenGL are not mutually exclusive. I have very successfully used SDL to handle joystick input, window creation, and sound output, with OpenGL for 3D. SDL in fact is designed to work this way, since SDL will create OpenGL rendering contexts for you when you create windows, and it handles the fullscreen video modes far easier than any other method of creating OpenGL contexts that I have used.
And just for comparison: I ported a DirectX/3D game from windows to SDL/OpenGL on Linux, and cut out about 1000 lines of code in the process because the DirectX API is so ugly. (I realize that might imply DirectX is more powerful, and I also realize my abhorrence of the MS DX API may be simply personal preference, and to boot, this was a DX5 program, so the API may be simpler now. I'm just relating the facts as I found them.)
Oh, and wasn't SDL used by Loki quite often for porting games to Linux?
Re:Direct-compile model looks dangerous (Score:3, Informative)
Drivers are closed source now. Drivers will continue to be closed source in the future in spite of where the compiler lies. Having the compiler in the driver is the right decision.
Don't like it. 3DLabs released the front end to their compiler. There is work being done in Mesa to support GLSL.
From now on, all bitching about open versus closed drivers will be modded as offtopic. Everyone knows the pros/cons and reasons for either decision. No need to drive it into the ground.
Re:gl pipeline not for raytracing (Score:3, Informative)
Re:my interest fwiw (Score:2, Informative)
The functionality of VTK is closer to IDL, and uses OpenGL as the rendering subsystem. Very interesting, and widely used...
Re:To my understanding... (Score:3, Informative)
Actually, Loki hired the guy who developed SDL.