Programming Jobs Abroad For a US Citizen? 836
An anonymous reader writes "I am a American citizen with a masters in Computer Science from a 3rd tier college and 4 years of work experience under my belt. I would like to work somewhere abroad in Europe for a couple years before I get too settled in life but have no clue where to start. I only speak English but would love to learn a second language. What sort of opportunities are there for American citizens to work abroad? What countries offer the best opportunity to balance a challenging work environment with enough vacation to explore the rest of Europe in my free time? Any hassles I should know about?"
Here are a few job boards for Canada and UK. (Score:5, Informative)
I live in Canada, but I'm being sponsored to work in the US, so I will more than likely be working on the US side in the next month or 2.
However, if you wish to work in Canada or the UK, you can try these job boards.
http://www.jobshark.ca/caeng/index.cfm
http://www.jobserve.com/ [jobserve.com]
Now as for balancing pleasure with business, gee, I could always make a joke about working in a country where the "siesta" is mandatory :P but the truth is, I don't know. All I know is that in Canada, you could always challenge yourself to learn French. For me, being bilingual it obviously works well. But the truth is, if you had to learn a new language, I would suspect the following languages would be beneficial: spanish, mandarin, japanese, russian, german.
Re:What opportunities for a European in the USA (Score:1, Informative)
While you're not personally responsible for this, the fact is there probably aren't as many opportunities as their once were.
You mean "they're" and "there".
Re:They probably have more regulations (Score:3, Informative)
Re:tier? (Score:3, Informative)
Ah, no. Most professional societies rank departments according to various productivity indicators, including papers published, journal quality for those papers, PhDs/Masters granted, external funding and a few others here and there. Using these rankings, tiers are established. Law schools, med schools, CS departments, Math departments, chem, physics and on and on. And it is indeed official in the sense the it is agreed upon by the professional society of a given discipline and hence agreed upon by the folks in the profession.
Re:South africa (Score:2, Informative)
Re:What opportunities for a European in the USA (Score:2, Informative)
incorrect with "they're" and correct with "there"
"they are probably are not as many opportunities"
not so much
"there probably are not as many opportunities"
better
Re:Try France. (Score:1, Informative)
yes, listen to your mate, the american here redneck. stay at home.
you live in the BEST country in the world.
seriously though; as an english speaker your options are limited to UK, London is the best for money. The other option is The Netherlands. if you get a job in NL 30% of your salary will be tax free for 10 years. its something you will have to apply for but the govt. grant it for most foreigners to attract skilled people. NL is good for english speakers as everybody speaks english in NL.
try www.expatica.com for more info.
Good luck and congrats on making a bold choice that you will benefit from as opposed to others in this forum.
Cheers,
Eric
Re:English at work countries... (Score:2, Informative)
Also, don't forget the international organizations. Many of them have English as one of their official languages, and a desire to hire Americans (because we help foot the bill). Examples include UNESCO, the OECD, and the IEA. It helps to have a more well rounded education than just programming, but definitely have a look.
Re:tier? (Score:4, Informative)
US News and World report started the bullshit a long time ago. There used to be 4 of them, now they skip the second one or something. Someone else in the replies here linked the full details.
Basically:
If you've heard of the school (in an acedemic sense, not fucking sports), it's probably first tier.
If you haven't heard of it, it's probably third tier (second gets skipped, wtf?).
If you've heard of it from a TV ad or spam e-mail, it's probably fourth tier.
There is no official clear-cut guidline other than their annual rankings. It's overhyped bullshit that it likely making US News a ton of money.
Europe can be difficult to get in to (Score:2, Informative)
I've been wondering exactly the same thing as yourself, and here are some of the conclusions I've come to.
First of all, language. I would guess that the other employees at almost any job you would want would speak English, so that's not a problem. However, it would be nice to speak with the locals, too. Here's [wikipedia.org] a measure of English ability. The summary is that the best English speaking countries are UK, Ireland, Holland, Denmark, and Sweden. I'll add Germany to the list because I've known several people who've gone there and said they had no problems. English is ok in tourist destinations anywhere. For example, you don't need to know French to live in Paris, but the rest of France would be tough. Of course, being an American, learning Spanish would be very helpful, so you might want to put Spain on your list, just to force yourself to improve, but English/non-Spanish speakers I know said Spain was difficult.
Second, actually getting a job can be difficult. I have been looking around to see if I could maybe get a job somewhere like Sweden (where most of my ancestors were from), but it looks like the Northern European countries have very strict labor laws for other Europeans, and so it's even harder for a non-European to get a job and a visa. It's much easier for them to come here, than us to go there, unfortunately, even though a skilled worker can make more [worldsalaries.org] here. However, as I understand, most countries are quite open to educational opportunities. There are probably quite a few programs that are affiliated with your school. For example, studying abroad and postdocs are probably the most common. You might consider Fulbright scholarships. Here's a list of contacts that someone at my school told me about:
***
BUNAC (British Universities North American Club) up to 6 months work visa in the UK, and varying times for work in Australia, New Zealand, and Ireland http://www.bunac.com/ [bunac.com] Note that the 4 month Irish work visa and 6 month UK work visa can be combined for 10 months split between the two countries.
CIEE (Center for International Educational Exchange) a number of countries and length of work visa varies: http://www.ciee.org/ [ciee.org]
Alliance Abroad has a number of internship, teaching and volunteer opportunities abroad http://www.allianceabroad.com/ [allianceabroad.com]
Spend a Year In New Zealand http://www.immigration.govt.nz/ [immigration.govt.nz] or go to http://www.immigration.govt.nz/migrant/stream/work/workingholiday/workopportunities/ [immigration.govt.nz] for working holiday information.
For summer up to year long technical placements IAESTE is the best (and I believe the only) group that arranges such opportunities for students or graduating seniors. Go to http://www.iaeste.org/ [iaeste.org]
***
As far as getting a job goes, think about who you might work for. If it's a multinational company (the most likely people to hire you), ask yourself why they'd hire you to work in a more expensive country, with more labor restrictions, when they can hire a local with probably roughly equivalent skills. Some of the things I've been reading say that this route can be done, but to do it, you'd join a multinational company here in the US, and after a couple years request a transfer. One obvious possibility, as an American, is to go as an employee of the Government (e.g. the Foreign Service).
You might also consider broadening your scope a bit to include other English speaking countries -- you'd probably do ok in most Commonwealth countries (e.g. Australia, New Zealand, South Africa)... I've seen lots of ads about working in New Zealand.
In summary.... it's really hard, unless you can do it via academia
Re:South africa (Score:4, Informative)
Continuing the outside-Europe-theme, Australia and New Zealand could be worth considering. New Zealand has the lowest unemployment in the OECD and is there's plenty of demand for IT people. In Australia the demand is even greater. Tax is roughly on a par with the UK (maybe slightly better in Australia, slightly worse in NZ).
You could also try asking US firms - particularly in the finance sector big US financials will tend to have EMEA (London, Paris, Frankfurt, etc) and APAC (Sydney, Melbourne, Auckland - plus Tokyo, Singapore, etc) offices, with significant regional IT needs. Speak to someone locally about work globally, and you'll have good contacts when/if you return to the US.
The Netherlands (Score:5, Informative)
Anyway, whichever country you choose, I wish you a great time!
:-).
ps. for anyone that goes to Holland for a longer time, you might want to read The Undutchables [amazon.com] to prevent any culture shock
Re:Here are a few job boards for Canada and UK. (Score:5, Informative)
For Sweden you have the official job agency ArbetsfÃrmedlingen [arbetsformedlingen.se].
As for being an American in Sweden it's no big deal. I have a workmate from Vancouver that has moved here. And on an earlier place there were a few too. Most people in Sweden speaks English too, so the language barrier isn't huge, and the cultural barrier is relatively small too. In fact small enough that some companies tests their new brands and products in Sweden before they release them in the US.
As for computer related work you do have a few of the international businesses like Accenture, IBM, HP, Logica [logica.com] over here too, but also a few local ones like Ã...F [www.af.se], Cybercom Group [cybercomgroup.com], Epsilon [epsilon.nu], Semcon [semcon.se], Sigma [sigma.se].
So there are a few to pick from. But the use for Swedish outside Scandinavia is very small, so if you want to do this for learning a new language it may be better to pick one of the bigger languages like German, Spanish, Italian or French. Maybe Switzerland is a good place, since they have four different languages in that country.
Just be aware that people in some countries or areas of countries are less welcoming to Americans and that you will have to expect them trying to get you into heated discussions about American presidents, especially Bush...
Re:Go to India (Score:5, Informative)
This may not be a bad idea actually. Salaries in India can actually be pretty high, up to 2/3rds of what US workers are making. India is not the bargain it once was for outsourcing. If you can find a good job there in a specific area of technical expertise or in a leadership role for a US organization you can do well. And in India, my understanding is that tech workers speak English on the job as it is considered the language of business.
Singapore (Score:4, Informative)
It's also a pretty foreigner-friendly environment so the transition when moving is very easy to handle.
Re:Stay out of Europe dude! (Score:3, Informative)
Nah... Just expect the usual irony over the cup of coffee in the morning along with the usual jokes about American coffee...
Unless you want to work in countries that has been battered by the US recently like Serbia the worst thing you probably have to stand are comments about the US in general.
Re:Working Holiday Visa - Wrong countries (Score:5, Informative)
It's easy to practice Dutch. Just ride your bicycle into the countryside and get lost. I guarantee that the person of whom you ask directions will not speak English. Or French. Or German. Not only that, although they will understand your Dutch, you won't be able to understand the response because it will be in some non-standard dialect. :)
Re:Hassles you should know abou (Score:1, Informative)
Yeah, they all speak with weird accents. Why can't they just speak english and accept american currency!!
Most Europeans have at least basic education (unlike you, obviously) and already do speak english as a second language. And we don't want your green toilet paper you call money.
Re:Germany (Score:3, Informative)
Things to consider (Score:3, Informative)
A buddy who went outside the US to an unnamed country (not in Europe) found that he was getting much lower pay for a standard Java developer job there. Plus, he noticed that places he was interviewing at, people were coming in to work rather formally dressed. He also noticed that most people would be very friendly, but wouldn't really socialize after work, and things 'died down' very quickly during the week. Of course, that is just one data point, but basically points to checking out all aspects of 'life', outside of just your day-to-day job. One of the easier transitions to make will be to join a company with offices in the US and elsewhere, and then transfer within that company to another country. Once grounded, you can choose to stay, return, or move. If you are willing to chuck up your job, you will probably have the most luck if you can actually go to the country you want to be in and meet face-to-face with companies. That, of course, is rather difficult, unless you have a support network. And paperwork. Bon Voyage! There is so much you can learn by immersing yourself in a different culture!
Re:elect obama (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Try France. (Score:2, Informative)
You need to go read up on something called "Scandinavia" ...
Switzerland (Score:5, Informative)
I guess I can shed some light on the situation in Switzerland.
There are four spoken languages here: German, Italian, French and Romanic. Typically, reasonably large companies in Switzerland have offices in at least two language areas, typically German and French or German and Italian. While the Swiss have their own version of German (which Germans don't understand when they first hear it), they will usually use the official version when talking to non-Swiss. So you can easily learn German, French and Italian in Switzerland.
All working-age Swiss speak English. There are some older people who may never have learned English, but you can easily get by even if you only know English.
I have a few American friends who live and work in Switzerland (Google has an office here, so there's tons of American Google programmers over here :-), and they seem to love it, so I guess I would recommend Switzerland. Also, we're always hiring good programmers :-)
When looking for programming jobs, I would start out in Zurich; there's a lot of software companies in Zurich.
I think admin.ch [admin.ch] should have information on how to apply for jobs and such.
Re:Important: ignore the parent (Score:2, Informative)
"Every single American living there hates the country with a passion and is counting the days until they can leave again."
That's ok: Many people in the Netherlands hate the US for booking foreigners like criminals at the border, the human rights situation (worse than China), the way politicians are openly bought and sold (with political power via campaign contributions) and most of all their hubris.
Then again, a humble person who is willing to learn our culture is likely to find this a pleasant country where nothing is hidden from you -- our national curse seems to be that we're too blunt.
Re:Stay the fuck where you are! (Score:2, Informative)
No it would not have.
Yes it would have!
See, that's not a particularly useful response, now is it?
I hate Bush as much as the next guy but to blame everything on him shows how inept you are when it comes to the US government and how it functions.
Again with the ad hominems; I thought we were over that. I realize how the US government works. The president is basically the head of the executive branch of the US government, and he's the boss of the US army.
You know, we do get US news stations and papers and even Internets over here. We're also interested in these things. In fact, I would bet that many Europeans are better informed about how your government works than Americans are.
Let me finish by saying that I do not "blame everything on him." I specifically said that not re-electing him "would have stopped some of the madness." Emphasis on "some."
Re:elect obama (Score:3, Informative)
To where?
Almost any other place in the world have higher taxes than the US, so unless the taxes goes over 50% in total you can forget that argument.
Singapore is a good option, as long as you don't mind living in a big, mildly fascist industrial park.
Re:Working Holiday Visa (Score:3, Informative)
Finnish is not an Indo-European language, which makes it a bit more distinct (considering that all of the languages from the Gaeltachtai of Donegal through to Bangladesh are Indo-European, except Arabic, Turkish and Hungarian).
Re:Try France (seriously, don't) (Score:1, Informative)
I am a US citizen currently working in France. My company handled most of the immigration/paperwork side of things since they already have a French office. Even though they did a lot, I wouldn't recommend anyone trying to go work in France without a job lined up and a contract signed and a visa prepared. I know I wouldn't have been able to do it on my own. The paperwork to get just about anything done was truly insane. If for some reason you still want to try France, check out http://www.americansinfrance.net/DailyLife/FindingAJobInFrance.cfm
Re:Important: ignore the parent (Score:1, Informative)
Wtf are you going to write this reply every single time someone brings up the Netherlands?
Just for anyone confused: Even though parent makes it sound like it, the Netherlands are not "hell on earth", at least I survived travelling through it.
I admit I can't tell you that much more about it though.
Re:Working Holiday Visa (Score:4, Informative)
:D
I wish I hadn't posted so I could mod this up :)
I think the Dutch are very excited to speak English, but you'll only get that at work. The moment you go to the store, the lady behind the deli counter won't speak a nit of English - possibly purely stubborn, I am sure they know English, they just don't want to think in it (let's be honest, meat and cheese in other languages is not something you'd commit to memory even if you worked in it). The other problem is that Dutch companies (unlike German or French companies) won't pay you to go learn Dutch. They're happy with your English. A lot of German companies will sign you up to a conversation-level German language course, before they put you in for anything else like a CCNA or MCSE whatever.
You pick it up eventually, and can get around, to the point that you are at the same risk of getting some kind of throat cancer practising your words.. I've heard actually the best way is to have a kid, and send them to school. They come back speaking Dutch, and you HAVE to learn it..
I think there is a definite toss-up though between learning a marginal, single-country language (Finnish, Swedish) for that country, and learning a more generic and "mainstream" one (French, German, etc.). You can get around France, Switzerland, Belgium and most of the Netherlands with French. Same with German, and you can add Austria to it too. If the intent is to travel around Europe, knowing Norwegian is not going to get you very far outside of Norway..
Re:Stay the fuck where you are! (Score:2, Informative)
They were just missing a good excuse to hate the US
Really? Perhaps you had some special instrument that allowed you to see other people's future thoughts.
(I mean, lets face it, it was the US picking up most of the tab for the DISASTER the Europeans caused in AFRICA... but I digress).
That's a multilateral disaster. Just look at the US's policy on AIDS in Africa. Not to mention the US payment arrears [wikipedia.org].
Before 9/11 Europeans just called us "fat and ugly", now they can call us "warmongerer's".
Actually they call you warmongers, because they can spell. Of course they are talking about the government of the USA, not its people.
Which is Ironic considering that the worse humanitarian disaster in the history of humanity was caused exclusively by Europeans (WWI and WWII).
You mean "worst", not "worse". They mean different things. Anyway, there are lots of huge humanitarian disasters to choose from, it is hard to find objective measurement criteria. I would also suggest that there are lots of other examples too (for example this one [youtube.com]).
Its just plain bat shit silly that the world doesnt hate Europe as much as they hate the US. Lets face it, 90% of the worlds problems today is caused by the actions of EU nations circa 1600-1900. (mostly before the creation of the US, and before the US became a real world player)
A lot of it is about the perception of arrogance. The US is perceived that way now, but before that (in reverse chronological order) it was the UK, France, and before that I guess the Roman Empire (there's a big gap there for the Middle and Dark ages, but my world history for those times is a bit weak).
Re:tier? (Score:4, Informative)
Smaller countries should be fine (Score:2, Informative)
I believe your biggest issue (except perhaps legal hoops to jump through) is the language.
One obvious choice would be UK or Ireland, where everybody speaks english already.
I live in Denmark, a small ( 6 million citizen) country with our own language. HOWEVER all north American exchange students I met on my graduate studies where impressed with the general level of English in Denmark. According to them it is a non-issue. I strongly suspect it will be the same in Sweden/Norway - at least in the urban areas.
I have also a big faith in the English skills of the Dutch, as I have traveled there multiple times and yet to meet any problems with not speaking the language.
Southern Europe (France, Italy, Span etc.) is a whole different situation, I was recently on week in Spain and was amazed by the lack of English. Almost nobody I meet outside the (IT-)conference spoke English in any usable degree. I have had the same trouble in Belgium (even in the capital) so I believe any French speaking countries might also be difficult.
I have no real idea of knowing how well the german-speaking countries speak English, as I am also fluent in German. I would believe that especially the German parts of Switzerland would be fine too.
To sum up, I believe any smaller western/north-western European country would be suitable. Watch out for the bigger ones as they are probably solely focused on their own language.
Re:English at work countries... (Score:4, Informative)
northern Europe (Score:1, Informative)
Yes, northern Europe is a good idea, with the netherland a good idea.
Mix of culture, language, near France, Germany, Belgium, England.
Now cost of living there is quite high there...
Ireland is nice too, you have call centers where they'd be glad to have you.
France, i would only suggest Sophia-antipolis near nices, climate is like california, and there are many companies in hightech where the language is English.
Nb: in many places in Europe they want stable employees, staying only 2 years will frighten them, you should tell them you want to live your life there.
Try to find a job where they request a lot of travel, you'll have less competition. And a chance to visit Europe on company money.
The professional service jobs would be better for that than programmer.
When choosing a position, check taxes and cost of living, very different around Europe.
Salary you should expect is up to 40k euros per year I think
Working outside of England or Ireland will bring you the most experience.
Have fun
Re:South africa (Score:3, Informative)
New Zealand has the lowest unemployment in the OECD...
New Zealand unemployment rate: 3.4%
Iceland unemployment rate: ~1%.
You might like coming to Spain (Score:1, Informative)
I can also suggest you to come to Spain.
I really consider pretty interesting all the countries listed in the comments above: Netherlands, Sweden, Germany... in fact they have much higher salaries than our salaries here, so it is always a good option.
However, if you are interested in learning a new language, Spain is probably one of the best places: not too many people can speak English fluently, so it will "force" you to make an extra effort in learning Spanish. On the other hand, people here will try to understand you no matter what level of Spanish you can speak, so it is not a problem for anyone usually.
Worried about the beginning? Well, working at an IT company means that people will be able to understand a bit more English than the mean, as it is usually the only way of "being on top of the wave". :-)
The next positive factor about Spanish is that it is currently the second most spoken language in the US, and some States are considering making it an official language, if they haven't done it yet...
About hollidays, we have around 22-30 days for hollidays, and some of them are perfect to get long weekends that you can get to visit other countries in Europe, for example. ...and I don't want you to miss parties: people usually knows how to party here, so I'm sure you will enjoy this point as well :-)
Now it is up to you to choose where to come. I welcome your will of coming to Europe anywhere you want: it will surely be a wonderful and valuable experience, like the one I had some years ago in the US ;-)
Re:Stay the fuck where you are! (Score:2, Informative)
There, fixed that for posterity.
http://www.colorado.edu/AmStudies/lewis/2010/atomicdec.htm [colorado.edu]
As for the questioner, you're welcome, just remember the World Domination(tm) patent has expired.
(NL)
Re:Interestingly enough ... (Score:3, Informative)
The same applies to the Netherlands, Germany and Belgium. France, Spain and Italy are probably an option as well, but in general their English language skills are worse. That said, it is probably a better place to learn a language (becaues many people don't speak English, you have to), and French and Spanish are the more useful languages compared to Dutch or German.
Re:tier? (Score:4, Informative)
Mod parent up. The good research schools may be loaded with brilliant professors but that doesn't mean they're any good at teaching, or that they even care about teaching.
Don't forget taxes (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Stay the fuck where you are! (Score:3, Informative)
I agree that WWII was general not a model case of avoiding noncombatant casualties, but I will point out a few facts:
1. When the USAAC and RAF firebombed Dresden, they caused more casualties than in both Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
2. The Japanese used WMDs (as currently defined as Nuclear, Biological, and Chemical weapons) first; estimates of casualties from their attacks on Chinese cities using plague are in the 50k to 100k range.
3. The U.S. previously avoided using WMD on Iwo Jima, which it was not necessary to cancel (the Navy's plans to gas it and bypass were vetoed by the President).
4. Invading Japan would've made Iraq (and Iran) look like a picnic; estimated U.S. casualties to establish an initial beachhead on the Home Islands were in excess of a quarter million; Japanese civilian and military casualty figures were estimated at several times higher. The persistent effects of nuclear weapons were not well understood for decades after - the U.S. was still doing "training exercises" with troops in close proximity to nuclear weapons into the 1960s.
So yes, the U.S. is only nation to use nuclear weapons in combat, but the use in WWII is still "permissible" under current U.S. and international (including French) WMD policy (which considers all NBC weapons to be equal, as we "official" don't have any of those).
Just my $0.02.
P.S.: Yes, I'm going to vote for Obama.
Re:The Netherlands (Score:3, Informative)
The statements about women and dark skinned people are 100% incorrect (NL is one of the most tolerant countries I've ever been to - there's a small racial issue with migrants from some places, but it's NOTHING like the problems elsewhere in the world).
Netherland used to be incredibly tolerant and proud of it, but Dutch politics have taken nasty turn towards xenophobia during the last decade. I'm sure it's temporary, though.