Best Way To Land Entry-Level Job? 441
chemicaldave writes "I'm graduating this May and have been seeking a programming position for months. It seems that the biggest hurdle to landing an interview is getting past the doorman that is HR. After reading this entry from Coding Horror describing the lack of programming candidates who can actually program, I can't help but scratch my head. I can program! (See how I put that link in?) If I can't land an interview, then even a short online evaluation of my coding skills would suffice. I just want a chance to prove myself. Alas, sending resumes to companies has rarely led to anything but an auto-confirmation email of my submission. I understand that sending resumes online is not the best method to landing an interview, but I come from a small rural school so job fairs rarely offer anything more than IT support positions let alone a programming position. It seems to me that developers are always looking for talented young programmers. We're out here looking for you too. Am I missing something?"
Apply (Score:5, Insightful)
And stop expecting a big salary shiny salary to do what is essentially the work of a computer janitor.
As soon as you lower your expectations to reality you'll find 'entry level' jobs are almost as common as now-hiring signs at McDonalds.
Re:Apply (Score:5, Interesting)
Exactly. Many companies get their talent through temp agencies, so submitter should consult the area temp agencies - they'll do much of the legwork for you and bolster your visibility if you don't have any existing connections. It's not as prestigious as waltzing into IBM's offices and walking out with a job offer, but we have to accept the reality that all new workers are basically temps anyway. You were lied to if you were told that you'd walk out of college with a 50K job offer. You may have to work for chump change in a lower-level position for a while just to prove your mettle to the company. In that case, it'll be up to you to take initiative and demonstrate that you can do more. Company bosses aren't going to magically see all of your skills and pick you out for promotion. You need to go above and beyond the job description. Examine whatever you can and reccomend bug fixes, or create programs that serve a purpose.
As an example, I wrote a small program to detect duplicate serial number entries so that nobody could print the same serial number for 2 machines without a warning. I also wrote a Rube Goldberg proof-of concept GUI program, based on the Java robot(in before noob, java sux), that simplified and made for safer data entry. Everybody on the floor thought that I was some kind of guru, and I'm only a lowly repair tech.
Timothy: please lift my Slashdot ban. I know i've been a bad boy, but I'm not going to e-mail you and beg for forgiveness.
-- Ethanol-fueled
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
You were lied to if you were told that you'd walk out of college with a 50K job offer.
It probably depends on what part of the country you're in. I got $23/hour (so about $46k/year) in the midwest a couple months after graduating (graduated December 2006), and then $51k/year about 8 months later when I went from being a contractor to being an employee. (And then they re-did the job descriptions, and the whole department got bumped up a pay grade.) This being the midwest, it doesn't seem at all unreasonable to expect $50k+ for entry-level positions in some of the more expensive coastal areas.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
I worked in a tech staffing office for about 7 years and I know the industry pretty well. There is what seems like a large markup at first, but you have to take a few things into consideration. When you work direct at a company, there's a lot of hidden fees that you don't see that come with your employment. There's overhead, computers and office equipment, holidays, administration, etc. As with all businesses, they're going to make money off of you; however, you have to realize that professional staffin
Re:Apply (Score:5, Insightful)
Self reply but I have to ...
No, you can throw code at a computer and get it to produce something you want. Thats not impressive. The first thing your first job is going to do is break down all the bullshit you got fed in school and introduce you to the realities of real world programming.
Yes, you aren't talented. You're not special. You are just like every other graduate thats had a few programming classes. Sorry, but thats just reality.
You are not going to get a 'good job' because there are FAR FAR FAR more people out there looking for those jobs right now with years of 'experience' on paper that you don't have.
The lack of experience puts you at the bottom of the food chain, you have to compete with me, and my 20 years of writing software, and the thousands of others like me.
My wife recently graduated Vet school and is upset because she couldn't go get the perfect cushie job fresh out and had to work a shitty job for a few months. Thats just reality. You went to school just to get on a level playing field with all the other people who went to school. Look at how many people graduated with you that want to do exactly what you do. Did your school produce more programmers than your locality can consume? If so, how do you expect to get a job at all if your school is producing more people to do a job than there are job slots to fill.
First step in joining the business world: Businesses lie. They aren't looking for talented developers RIGHT NOW, but if you happen to be completely kick ass and submit a resume at the right time, they might pick you up anyway. Every companies website lists job offerings, 99% of the time they have no real intention of filling them.
They are looking for experienced programmers they can hire at the rate of a entry level programmer. If they find it, they'll hire them, but they'll just turn you down unless you have something really impressive that stands out.
How are you showing them your skills? A resume? I've hired a few developers in my time, I assure you the only people that care about your resume is HR. When a potential employer asks you what you've done, are you just going to point out class projects where you were essentially spoon fed every step of the process? Thats not going to win you any points. You need something to show them you are worth hiring and nothing on a resume is going to do it.
Regardless of everything I've said above, be it right or wrong, you have one serious disadvantage. You're looking for a job at the worst possible time. For the last 10-12 years schools have been pumping out 'developers' who are just random people that signed up for CS because they thought they could get rich quick. Now you're coming into the job market, 15 years too late, with an education that was out of date before you graduated from highschool, during an economy were all the other mediocre but far more experienced 'developers' out there are looking for jobs as well.
You're only hope is to get a job from a friend of a friend of a friend. So make so friend in the right places, work some crappy job in the interim and put some effort into making a portfolio of sorts and wait for a better time to find a job or some luck.
Re: (Score:2)
The lack of experience puts you at the bottom of the food chain, you have to compete with me, and my 20 years of writing software, and the thousands of others like me.
Do people with 20 years of experience only do entry level jobs these days. That really sucks!
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Nah, some of us just give up in that field and start our own businesses using all the skills we acquired during those 20 years of bullshit.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Also (Score:2, Insightful)
Are you Indian?
Are you willing to move to India? Are you willing to accept local Indian renumeration levels?
If you can say yes to the above, I see a great future for you.
Re:Apply (Score:5, Informative)
A bit cynical... but mostly true.
I am still in college, and I was hired last week for a full-time position. I was lucky (or prudent) to gain programming experience through a 3 year internship in college. If you don't have any relevant experience, as the parent post points out, you are really going to need to put together some demo code. I wouldn't consider anything less than 500 lines, which if you really can program, should only take you day or two. Try to make it as original and non-trivial as possible... Be sure to document the code well using whatever documentation tools there are for the language you are using.
Also, are you getting the basics right? Do you have a good resume? You should get some feedback from professionals if possible on it. Are you writing cover letters that explain what YOU can do for the company? Be sure to tailor your resume/cover-letter to the job description; expect to spend 2-3 hours on each.
If you would like me to offer some feedback on your resume/cover-letter, I could do so. I've been able to help friends land interviews by doing this before.
Good luck, keep your chin up, expand you skills, and realize that you don't know jack.
To that I'll add (Score:5, Interesting)
If your experience with programming is having a CS degree, you aren't a developer. You are, well, a computer scientist. The same thing you say? Not hardly. While both deal with programming, it is from different aspects. Computer Science is a theoretical field. It is based around the research of computers and algorithms, around the theory of how to program, how to make them better. Fine, but that isn't what most companies are hiring. They are hiring developers, which is the practical side. They are hiring people who will be told to solve real world problem X and do it quickly. They want people with practical knowledge of how to develop apps on today's systems, not theoretical knowledge of computers over all.
So if all you experience is in computer science, that's a disadvantage. Don't get me wrong, having a strong theory background can help, but it isn't what companies are after. If you feel a bit cheated by your university, well, ya, kinda happens that way.
The problem derives from the history of universities. They have historically been high level, theoretical institutions. Time was, that was really the only reason you went there. When Harvard first started, then called Oxford after the English school, you had to know Latin and Greek just to get admitted. It wasn't a place where you got practical training for a job, it was just the polish to an already fine education that included many purely academic pursuits. Few people got those sorts of degrees.
Ok well our current universities get their heritage from that system. So while we now have more complex jobs that want more training than high school gives, students still by and large go to theoretical institutions. The universities are trying to present more practical training, but aren't doing a great job over all.
Now please note, I say this as someone who works at a university. It is just something you need to be realistic about. Your degree can be helpful, but you need to get practical experience outside of it. The only time you tend to see an "All degree," field is if you are seeking to become a PhD and teach/research at a university. Anything else, you need to get practical experience as well as the degree.
Re:To that I'll add (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm a prof., and I can attest to everything the parent said.
I can also attest to everything the OP said. I know, because I, like the submitter, screwed it all up. I thought my friends who were "working for free" at internships were crazy. They all got jobs--usually the same job they were doing for free--immediately after graduating. Me? No. I did not. I graduated in the top 10% of my class and am bilingual, but I couldn't get a job. This went on for years (I was working crap jobs), until I figured out that, although I think the business world is lazy as shit in that they refuse to train people anymore (I live in Japan; the companies here hire smart kids and turn them into whatever they need), that's the way it is. The problem was me, not them.
So I looked at my academic record and realized that the only people who cared about it were other academics, and that the way out was through. I went back to school, and here I am: a prof. at a very prestigious university. But I got here by paying a lot of money and working for free for years and years. --I just don't think there is any way around that anymore. The "entry level position" is a myth.
I tell all my students to get internships now. I tell them how I ended up standing before them. I like my job, don't get me wrong, but I ended up here because I didn't do the things I needed to do to go anywhere else.
There is a fundamental lie that we tell young people: Go to college and you will get a good job. That just is not true. I have a close friend who dropped out of high school and is a very successful developer. He's very, very smart, and wears that lack of even a diploma as a badge of honor. But he got where he is today by working a lot of terrible jobs--starting by building PCs at a Mom & Pop white box shop in a strip mall--and honing his skills. It took a long time. It always takes a long time.
I'd like to add something to the parent's point, though. The "go to college, get a good job" is a cum hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy (i.e. correlation does not imply causation). In the old days, only the idle rich could go to university, and they were largely finishing schools. That's why we still have total bullshit like literature degrees at 4 year institutions (I like books, but getting a 4-year degree in book reports is nuts). So those people didn't need jobs, or might be installed at the family business as some titular boss when they finished. However, if you were a really smart cookie from the lower classes, you might be able to go to university on scholarship. You might earn your way in. Once in, you were suddenly rubbing elbows with the ruling class, and one of your mates was virtually guaranteed to talk his dad into hiring you. Even if that didn't happen, when you graduated, someone would hire you because, "OMG you have a degree???" This is because they were rare. They are not rare anymore. It would be different if you went to an Ivy League school--that would at least get you an interview--but you didn't (that's the other thing I've learned since being "in the industry"--name value is everything; there's almost no point in going to a school that is not well-known--I work with a complete moron, but he went to the same Ivy League school as our boss, so he's in).
So here's what you're looking at: You have no experience, no name value, and you don't know anyone. You have a random bachelor's just like everybody else. You are not getting a "real" job anytime soon. You're not. It's not going to happen. The sooner you make peace with that, the better. You need to get some experience, and that is going to mean doing it for free, probably. I'm sorry, but it's true.
Good luck.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
I never did get my masters, my graduate grades where poor (did half of a masters and got excellent grades there though). I have never had problems landing jobs, 28 years old and earning over $100k.
Having a diploma shows you know how to read, it shows you know how to learn - these are important aspects of a company. Having experience working is also great, but fact is, every time you switch job you are in for a period of relearning - everything they do will be different from whatever you have done earlier.
Fi
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
To put it succinctly: a college degree isn't enough. It is, however, a good start.
I think the real benefit is that college gives you the time and resources to do your own thing. For example, it's easier to do an unpaid internship if you already have room and board covered through student loans or from your parents.
I got a CS degree (and Spanish, minor in Business) in the mid-90s. About the time I was graduating, I saw people get into CS because the dot-com boom showed that programming was big money. I'm
Re:Apply (Score:4, Insightful)
Agreed, that said, the OP lamented how he can't get an interview. Maybe he does need to improve his resume.
I fervently disagree with this sentiment. I'm also a soon to graduate developer and have received offers from almost every company that I applied to.
Sheesh (Score:3, Informative)
I hope you don't pay to much attention to this guy. The world is not nearly as dark as he's proclaiming.
I'm going to tell you a fact that you may or not find comforting.
9 out of 10 programmers who are applying for jobs suck. I'm probably being too generous here, but whatever. I've interviewed people at Microsoft, and I've interviewed people at small start ups. Doesn't matter, most interviewee's are just terrible. I don't blame this guy for being jaded. If you had to interview crappy programmer after crappy
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Regardless of everything I've said above, be it right or wrong, you have one serious disadvantage. You're looking for a job at the worst possible time. For the last 10-12 years schools have been pumping out 'developers' who are just random people that signed up for CS because they thought they could get rich quick. Now you're coming into the job market, 15 years too late, with an education that was out of date before you graduated from highschool, during an economy were all the other mediocre but far more experienced 'developers' out there are looking for jobs as well.
As a CS graduate in the UK, I wouldn't entirely agree with this. Yes, the economy is a little bit shit right now but technology jobs are still out there. In fact, I recently visited my uni for a few drinks and the students in tech related subjects seemed quite a bit less worried than everyone else. In my own experience, the biggest obstacle to getting a job was that I believed the newspapers and got demotivated. As soon as I started looking, I started getting interviews.
I cant compare the situation to previ
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Thank you for posting links to your code along with your response, it makes it abundantly clear that you have no real programming experience aside from simple, non-OO PHP. Yes, you can program, but you are by no means a software developer. The comparison that you are drawing is like a shade-tree mechanic considering himself automotive engineer.
A developer creates non-trivial software; the code is modular, documented, and extensively tested. It often makes use of various APIs, and integrates with other syst
show off your programming skills (Score:5, Insightful)
apply for the google summer of code project. looks great on the resume.
also, do virtually anything public programming related. write a small open source utility. or a new feature in an existing open source app. or a free app for a cell phone. (100k downloads isn't that hard, and looks good to business folk)
i've been on the hiring side of fresh meat devs several times now. literally anything that shows you can code in a reasonable, organized fashion will put you at the top of the list.
btw, i hope the html link reference was a joke. =P
Re:show off your programming skills (Score:4, Insightful)
This. DO LOTS OF OPEN SOURCE. It proves your ability to code something that someone else will actually accept into their project. And starts building that all-important professional network!
Re: (Score:2)
FOSS projects tend not to care about who you know, where you studied, or what your GPA was, as much as they care about your creativity, your drive, and your skills.
Re:show off your programming skills (Score:5, Funny)
do virtually anything public programming related
Example: build a race of giant robots and program them to seek out and destroy any HR manager who turns down your resume.
Common Sense and Finished Examples: (Score:5, Insightful)
Secondly, show examples of your programming experience. Doesn't have to be used somewhere in industry, just have working, finished examples of your code available either online (if applicable) or somehow available for them to see. Be the candidate that they interview that might not have experience working in a firm, but can still finish projects.
I can't stress just how much those two simple points will help?
The sad fact is... (Score:4, Informative)
The sad fact is GPA and the school you went to really matter a lot when getting past HR. If you have a sub 3.0-3.2 GPA and/or went to a low ranked school you should try to bypass HR.
I would consider traveling to another University's job fair if you don't have good local ones. Here, you can talk directly to engineers/programmers who can gauge your skills far more precisely than HR can glean from your resume.
Re:The sad fact is... (Score:4, Interesting)
For me, I do not want to put all of my personal details in a 3rd party online application form of some company I have no relationship with, have never heard of, know nothing of their security, and will likely forget has my info in a few years when they finally get pwned by some foreign script kid. Luckily, as for the credit check BS, at least 16 states are moving to ban the practice and two already have (HI and WA).
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
The sad fact is GPA and the school you went to really matter a lot when getting past HR.
Not really. A good GPA will help you, but a mediocre GPA won't hurt you if you write your resume well.
The key to getting past HR is to have a resume that gets HR's attention in the first sentence. Usually large job postings are whittled down by keyword searches, so if you are looking for a programming job make sure you actually mention things relevant to programming in your resume. After that point, the HR screener just skims the resumes, looking for the ones that grab his attention. This is likely wher
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
The sad fact is GPA and the school you went to really matter a lot when getting past HR.
I think this is a common misconception on slashdot. Perhaps it's a regional thought process, but here in Austin, if you have the degree, it doesn't matter where you got it from (as long as it's accredited) and nobody will ever know your GPA (unless you tell them).
There is such a SHORTAGE of entry-level candidates with a B.S. in anything computer related, we hire pretty much anyone willing to apply and show up to work on Monday...and I live in a progressive tech-savvy city with two universities within commut
Manners are somewhat lacking (Score:4, Insightful)
Probably the best thing you can do is while searching try and get involved in some open source project. It's probably not going to put food on the table, but it will likely land you access to opportunities that you might not otherwise get. And give you something to put on your CV while maintaining your skills.
But just realize that the manners of people doing the hiring are typically lousy and remember that if you get turned down that you're likely not interested in working for a company that represents itself in such an embarrassing way.
The economy (Score:5, Insightful)
Bad economy+no practical experience+little school no one has heard of=hard to get a job. Particularly if your college can't get together a real job fair. Applying to internet postings works more if you have experience on your resume, its a difficult way to get a first job. Especially since in this economy an experienced but out of work programmer may apply for a position normally below him. It was that way after the .com crash too.
I'd suggest using any people you know already in the industry or in companies that hire programmers. And consider taking an IT position if you can't get anything else- I know a lot of programmers from small schools that started out that way and then switched over. If nothing else it will pay the bills for a while.
Motivation & Incentive (Score:2)
-Do you have professional experience programming?
This can be gained through internships [fastweb.com], FOSS development, [sourceforge.net] and competitive programming. [topcoder.com]
Do you have resume fodder?
-Certifications
-Degrees
-Project Successes
Do you have references?
-Professional connections through school.
-People who have reputations in software-development.
Honestly, those are all solid ways to develop the credentials to get you into entry-level, and if you are motivated, well-spoken, and honest, it can be done.
Elance (Score:2)
Build up your skills and portfolio.
My first job interview was mostly just showing off the websites I built.
Elance will let you get paid and will give you a better sense of what real work might be like.
It is not a great time (Score:5, Interesting)
Right now is a really hard time to try to get your foot in the door. As a manager, I posted for an entry level position and ended up with a ton of candidates with a strong background. I don't believe in the whole "overqualified" paradigm, so I ended up getting the best candidate -- over twelve years of experience pertinent to my business, glowing reviews from previous employers and excellent interpersonal skills.
I got a ton of resumes from college students. Several sounded promising, and I would have loved to give them a chance. But when I have someone with a proven track record who I KNOW will not require only minimal supervision and will bring more to the table... why should I waste my time and money?
Is it fair? Maybe not. When I was in this position almost 15 years ago it sucked. But with 10%+ unemployment it is very hard for the entry level candidate to get his foot in the door.
My solution.... if you are still in school... get a fricking internship. It may not put you at the same level as those I did end up interviewing... but it will help/
Re:It is not a great time (Score:4, Insightful)
Is it fair?
It's absolutely fair. It may be a little unfortunate, but it is certainly fair. Think of it from the perspective of the guy who has a stellar track record but lost his job when the company folded, and has been out of work for the last 6 months because of it. Not choosing him even though he is the most qualified applicant would be unfair.
It's just that we tend to have a hard time looking at it from someone elses perspective when we lose, but fair isn't always nice. In fact it's rarely nice to everybody.
My solution.... if you are still in school... get a fricking internship.
Bingo. Work a second job for money (preferably one that doesn't require thinking, or you'll be drained) and intern for free if you have to, anything to get a foot in the door. If you've got free time after both jobs, help out some FOSS projects. Anything you can do to pump your resume, do it. It probably won't be more than a year before you're able to land something that actually pays. Chances are it will be with the company you're interning for too.
Proof that our economy is fundamentally broken (Score:4, Insightful)
"As a manager, I posted for an entry level position "
"I ended up getting the best candidate -- over twelve years of experience pertinent to my business, glowing reviews from previous employers and excellent interpersonal skills."
"Is it fair? Maybe not."
There, right there, is why I don't teach. I cannot, in good conscience, tell some poor kid to work hard, stay in school, study like a madman, fight for good grades, and work 80 hours a week to put himself through school like I did, knowing that there won't be a job for him.
We all know this economy HAS NO entry-level jobs. The same people who so cavalierly smirk "life ain't fair" will be the same people whining and gibbering the loudest when the young we've screwed over pass the "Mandatory Euthanasia/Nutrition Enhancement Act of 2025."
As the next generation straps me and the whiners into the gurneys so we can watch the pretty movie while the drugs start dripping down our IVs, I look forward to finding the fattest, loudest schmucks bawling the like Glenn Beck and telling them, "It's OK. Life ain't fair," before it all goes black.
Re:It is not a great time (Score:4, Insightful)
The trouble with what you did is that the the guy with 12yrs experience and glowing reviews was surely not looking for an entry level position... he only applied and accepted because he needed a paycheck and had obviously not found a job at his real experience/salary level. I'd be AMAZED if he doesn't keep looking and quit your job as soon as he has found a better one.
If you'd hired a fresh grad or someone with a year or two's experience they could have grown with the position and maybe ended up making a long term career at your company.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Please rent a clue.
Ah, I see you ignored where I pointed out that the hiring managers like yourself are demanding 5+ years experience for an entry level position. Then there's the fact that the salary offered is significantly less than it was pre-recession as well. That would be called "taking advantage of the bad economy". Is it illegal? No. Should it be illegal? Again, no. However, it is reprehensible behavior.
I ran the interviews. That is part of what you find out. No, you don't just look at a resume and presume what iy says is accurate. You probe to find out what you need to know.
Really? Did you actually bring in everyone who sent in a resume? Also, interviews don't tell everything ei
Consider moving and need more information (Score:2)
You don't say where you are located, which has an enormous effect on your ability to land a job. Some job markets are terrible, and others are wonderful. If you've moved from the former to the latter, your job prospects will improve greatly. In the current economy, "Labor mobility" is very important to finding a good job.
Also, "Programming" is a rather broad area. What kind of programming are you interested in? What industry do you want to work for? Figure out where those companies are located, and mo
Here's The Problem. (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm in broadcast engineering, which includes some programming, but is not programming-specific. I'll let some of those folks address your concerns directly. But speaking in general and in no particular order:
1. Maybe you should have gone to a different school, even if it meant relocating. An internship would have given you some valuable experience, and if you're really good, would probably have resulted in permanent employment afterward.
2. Look at small companies instead of the big ones. Offer to work for beans and rice until you can demonstrate that you know what you're doing. It'll pay off in the long run.
3. While you look for a job, work on an open-source project. Having a recommendation from a well-known F/OSS guru can't hurt. :)
4. Once you get the chance, I can't emphasize this strongly enough: PROVE TO ME THAT YOU REALLY WANT THE JOB. Think outside the box. Be willing to go the extra mile. Don't sit in your chair playing Solitaire waiting for me to tell you what to do next. Show initiative.
Back when I was a teenager, I got my first job in radio by hanging around the station constantly. I took out the trash. I annoyed the engineer and asked a thousand questions. I was willing to do anything to prove that I wanted the job.
I'm not boasting; that's just common sense. But contrast that with an intern who tried out with me a couple of years ago. Unless I stayed on him, he did indeed sit and play Solitaire. When the HVAC went out in the studios, he got up from his job as a call screener for one of our talk shows and said, "it's just too hot. I'll be back tomorrow" -- which left us scrambling for someone to cover his slot.
He still calls from time to time and is amazed that we won't hire him. No, I'm not kidding.
It's not about what you know... (Score:3, Insightful)
...but about who you know. Referrals from friends are the best way to get your foot in the door for entry-level positions, then experience will get you in the door for future jobs.
An internship (Score:2)
When I was in school way back when, the school would work an internship program with local companies and the students would get course credit. Do they still offer those anymore for CS majors?
Re: (Score:2)
Find your roadblock and get around it (Score:5, Insightful)
If you are only applying to big companies, that could be your problem. There are lots of smaller companies around, and they are usually the ones that have trouble finding good programmers. If you really are good, then keep tweaking your presentation until the people where you are applying can actually see that you are good. If you are not actually good, then your roadblock is that you are not good, and you should fix that.
Re:Find your roadblock and get around it (Score:4, Informative)
I'll second the resume suggestion and I'll comment a bit more on this, as this hasn't been discussed much so far. This might indeed be his main problem (besides the fact that the economy is just starting to recover and lots of companies have hiring freezes) if he's not getting any responses at all.
The shittyness of some resumes can be simply staggering, and the OP's might be one of these. It's not that you need embossed print or watermarked paper, but following some basic rules of typography and design helps immensely. I'm not a designer myself, but I think just sticking to one font (maybe a different one for the name/heading is ok too) and keeping the layout as clear and as consistent as possible can make a huge difference.
The content itself is of course very important. Even as a fresh graduate, you don't want your resume to look like this:
*-paraphrasing, but this is an actual line I saw somebody write on their resume.
Obviously, make sure there aren't any spelling or grammar problems, or just awkward phrasing anywhere. I'm not going to say what exactly you should write to guarantee a job because I don't know that myself, but in my opinion (well also in the opinion of people vastly more experienced than I am) the most important thing here is to show how you are different and better that others who would be applying for the same job. Unless there are more jobs that possible candidates, you are going to compete with them. Sure you can code in C, but so can I, and I've never went through a fancy CS program.
So, think about how you are better than others, like those who will be graduating with you. If you can't think of anything, well, that's your problem. Do something about it ASAP before you graduate and become unemployed.
It's possible to argue that skills required for making a nice resume don't overlap much with those required from a code monkey, but if the resume looks like it was designed and written by a thirteen year old, I think the HR drones are more then justified in tossing it in the bin. At the very least, a nice resume shows the employers that you care about finding a job, put in the effort to do it right, and that you could also pick up the skills which were necessary for the task, even if they weren't your area of expertise originally.
OP, if you're reading this (and I hope you are, I didn't type all this for my own amusement!), why don't you post your CV so we can critique it for you?
PS. the cover letters can be just as important.
Friends and family (Score:5, Interesting)
That's were most of the jobs are. Which is a bit sad.
And remember, don't take just any job. You have a degree and you've spent a lot of money on it. The salary of your new job should reflect this.In Norway for instance starting salary for an uneducated is about 280'000,- kr. The cost of 5 years of study is 333000 in loans. 20 years from now your education will have cost you 1'400'000 (5 years of lost income) + 999'000 in down payments = 2'399'000. So if you are planning on paying that down you need to make close to 400'000,- kr a year.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
What's with posting salaries in Krone? This is America, damnit! Use something we can relate to.....
.... like Rupees or Yuan.
Who ya know (Score:3, Insightful)
I find that jobs are handed out in this order.
1) Kickback (If I Hire X will I be compensated?)
----
a) |----- Family (Am I related to individual [Small form of kickback, sometimes hiring children of political people falls under this catagorey, nothing cuts through red tape like]
b) |--------- Figurehead ( I've seen where people are hired just to be a figurehead ( Astronauts, Politicians, Former CEO's ect )
2) Circle of Friends (Nothing makes them feel better than hiring someone from their Alma mater, charity, ect.)
----
3) Indentured Servitude (Can I pay this kid to do the job what I spent filling up my yacht for my weekend getaway?)
----
4) The Shiny Turd ( I've got a double MBNA Frum Havard. I am Job. )
----
Lying lips sound the sweetest but when their kissing your ass its even better.
5) Needle In the Haystack ( This is you and me )
-----
Aim low (Score:2)
I am probably one of the most awkward individuals in HR interview settings. I aimed for a job that I knew I could get, and I excelled at that job which allowed me to move on to better roles.
How are your other skills? Process Management, Configuration Management
You must emphasize all skills in addition to programming. I would say 30% of my time is dealing with QA aspects.
you missed a few obvious things already (Score:3, Insightful)
Step 1: When carping about not being able to find a job on slashdot, remember to tell people what programming languages you know.
Step 2: Make sure the name attached to your post links to something besides a couple of pages that haven't been updated in 2 years
Step 3: When fixing the above - start writing essays or blog entries on technology stuff that you know, so that when the quasi-decent HR rep googles your name, he'll be impressed with what he finds. In this day and age, that's one of the few ways you can "submit" a sample of your code.
Good advice was already stated about volunteering for OSS. Even if it doesn't help get you in the door somewhere, it'll at least hone your chops, which will help once you do get a job.
Networking (Score:2, Insightful)
Getting a professional job isn't as simple as having the knowledge and certifications that make you eligible. Building a social network is equally important, if not more important. Having a professional that's already in the industry being able to vouch for you is a huge plus when it comes to finding jobs. Often, this can completely bypass HR and get you in touch with the management involved where your targeted position is.
HR is kinda stupid. Getting around them is the best way to get in, and doing that req
Confused (Score:2, Insightful)
Second, what are you graduating from (high school, technical college, university)? With what kind of degree?
To directly address your question, most entry level positions require two years experience. You need to figure out how to get that experience!
I graduated right before September 11, 2001 and wound up taking an IT support job where they needed some programing done as well. It was a long haul (almost eight years of more and more developmen
Re: (Score:2)
Second, what are you graduating from (high school, technical college, university)? With what kind of degree?
Also, where are you located? Some areas have a much higher density of the type of companies that most frequently look to college graduates for hire. Small dev shops can hire fresh grads to get untrained labour for much lower wages than someone with experience. Find companies that are looking for college students / recent grads and offering something like $10-15/hr, even if it's not fulltime. Living frugally for a year or two will not only fill out your resume for a better position later, but give you time t
Re: (Score:2)
First, including a link doesn't make you a programmer.
Whoooooosh!
Build a portfolio of relevant code (Score:2)
1. Pick a specialty or two. Maybe you're interested in computer graphics, great, learn OpenGL, or maybe you want to work with databases, fine, learn the API's.
2. Do one or more of the following:
a. Write a few small, relevant, open-source programs that you can show to prospective employers.
b. Work on a few relevant open-source projects to help build networking/contacts.
c. Do an internship and write a few small releva
Re: (Score:2)
I should clarify, I started out 10 years ago, in a completely different economy. Still having a focused resume with a portfolio of relevant applications made the interview process MUCH easier.
Show us your resume (Score:2)
If you post an anonymized version of your resume, I'll be happy to see if there's anything obviously wrong with it.
I've been both looking for work and for staff (Score:2)
You haven't really discussed how you went about your approaches in any real detail, so excuse me if I give you a few pointers:
1. HR departments (particularly in big companies) are mostly there to keep outsiders out. They seldom accept speculative applications and forward them to the relevant department - yet at any given point in time, many departments within organisations are thinking "We could do with someone else here to help deal with XXX, but we need to get around to writing the job spec, get hiring
Human Networking (Score:2)
You think finding a job is hard now, when you have no experience. It can be as hard or harder once you DO have experience. Before I drone on about why it's hard to get a job with experience, here's my solution to both: Human Networking.
It's really surprisingly simple. The more people you talk to and get to know...
- the more people who may tell you when a position becomes (or is about to become) available
- the more people you can "seek advice" from about getting a job (thereby making them aware of your
Nepotism (Score:2)
Nepotism. The nice word for this is "connections". Do you know anyone who knows anyone who knows anyone (etc.) who runs their own software company, or works at one in a high-enough position that hiring interns or entry-level, underpaid slaves falls under their authority? Find these people and get your foot in the door.
Search in a better area (Score:2)
I read a few responses to all this, and didn't see a significantly practical recommendation. Purposely focus on the municipal areas and industries where unemployment is low. For example, consider Washing DC jobs in the defense sector.
As an aside, you said your problem was that you couldn't land the interview. You must understand clearly that the purpose of sending your resume to the company is to not land a job, but land an interview. You need to rethink the structure and presentation of your resume specifi
Conform while being unique (Score:2, Interesting)
To understand how to get hired, you have to understand how hiring works. Here's a simple 2-step generalization:
Part 1)
A great number of companies out there rely on their HR staff to do the hiring and applicant-seeking. The project lead or ~maybe~ even manager writes up a job description, and the HR staff formalizes it; breaks down each skill individually, adds 'years of' or 'proficiency level x-out-of-5' etc. This means that either a computer program that scans for buzzwords, or a person with no compute
Get another degree? (Score:2)
A biosciences company will hire a dude with a bio education AND a CS degree before they'll hire a CS guy.
A finance company will hire a dude with an accounting education AND a CS degree before they'll hire a CS guy.
You get the idea.
No need to go back for a 4-year degree... Boss will be impressed enough to hear you're enrolled at the local community college.
Also, in general, there are certain educational areas that "go well with programming".
For example, most big companies that have MIS developers also have a
College Placement Center (Score:2)
Every college and university I ever heard of had a placement center, that existed for the sole purpose of facilitating interviewing of students about to graduate, and getting them hired. They are generally very good people, and helping you get hired is their job.
More to the point, the companies that interview you through the college placement center know you're a fresh grad, and unlikely to have any real experience.
Grad school (Score:2)
Do more than school - program on the side. (Score:2)
Of the seven 'beginning' programmers, all had done work on the side either as a self-held business or as contract work. I rejected every applicant who hadn't done some programming outside of class.
Two of my top programmers eve
Do the legwork (Score:2)
Finding a job takes a lot of time if you don't already have the connections. You should be applying to hundreds or thousands of jobs.
Also, remember there are a lot of software engineering jobs at companies that do not sell software. If i were a student fresh out of school right now, I'd just go to a list of the fortune 1000 and apply to all of them.
You also want to go to every single career fair you can find within 50-100 miles, and meet people and give them your resume, and tell them how awesome it would
Enlist (Score:2)
Thats one way to get an entry level job.
Networking, experience (Score:3, Insightful)
For anyone starting out, coming from a veteran of job searching.
1) Experience. I have said this before, if you have to do some volunteer work for a non-controversial non-profit. E.g. doing websites and donor databases for your local no kill animal shelter. There are plenty of volunteer orgs. that need help. Find one that overlaps your interests and seems a high quality organization. You can get both experience and good references from this.
In addition, if you show up to help with fundraisers you will probably get to meet local business owners. One of which could give you an internship or entry level job to see how you work out. This is also the networking aspect.
2) More references and networking. Get a reference from instructors you "click" with. They may even have leads on potential employers, sometimes former students or colleagues of their. It helps if you have an interest and good grades, but if you show a keen interest that helps to offset any academic struggles.
3) Networking with peers. Form study groups, interests groups, or join one. People who graduated before you could give you leads or advice. Depending on the situation, you may end up doing business with a classmate or two for the rest of your life.
4) See if you can get a student position at your school's IT dept. or help desk. More opportunities for references and networking.
5) Put up adds on Craigs List etc. and do a little consulting on the side while in school. It beats washing dishes. Just make sure you know how the taxes work. More opportun ity for networking. Nothing speaks volume like satisfied customers.
In this economy if all you have done take classes, you are hosed. You lack both experience and social contacts, and will be starting from zero when you graduate which is when you need to money the most.
move (Score:3, Insightful)
Move to a city with a lot of IT. Take ANY job, even if it's Geek Squad. Start networking like crazy, join a LUG, attend conferences and talks, put yourself out there. The vast majority of all jobs are not given to a resume on a stack. Meet people.
Ships passing in the night (Score:3, Interesting)
You aren't missing anything. The problem is HR. The people actually hiring don't evaluate resumes at companies of any size. They send a position summary to HR, who handle that. When you submit a resume, it goes to HR. HR then scans your resume for the keywords from the position summary. If your resume doesn't contain exactly the right keywords (which you don't know), then HR bins your resume and the people who know what to look for never even see it. Meanwhile the scam artists (whether the candidate themselves or the recruiter submitting their resume) know exactly how to put the right keywords in, so what does go through to the hiring manager is the people who aren't qualified. Which leaves both hiring managers and candidates griping.
Yes, I've been through this from the hiring side. After one particularly fruitless batch I got permission from my manager to go twist HR's arms until they coughed up the rejected resumes. And lo and behold, we found 5 interviewable candidates from the batch HR said weren't qualified. My manager was, needless to say, Not Amused, and made his lack of amusement felt.
use your network! (Score:3, Insightful)
You already know people connected to the industry -- talk to them! Ask your profs if they know anybody in the industry. Ask your jobful friends to pass your resume along. Is there a famous prof at your uni? Did you take a class with them? Bring your chutzpah to their office and ask for a rec.
A referral from a trusted third party is thousands of times more likely to get your foot in the door than your resume, no matter how bloody sparkly the thing is.
Case in point, I graduated summa cum laude from an Ivy school, and no one really gave much of a shit. Until I knocked on my algo prof's door once during his office hours, asked him whether he knew someone in industry looking for a smart hard-working youngster. He gave me the name of his contact (the CEO of a tiny co). (I didn't even do that well in the Prof's class, slightly below median IIRC.)
Next thing I know the CEO's shaking my hand congratulating me on my new 50%-pay job. He's telling me "boy have you ever got a lot to learn, but Prof so-n-so says you're smart and you do seem to come off that way". Worked my arse off til it turned into a real job. And now there are *2* people out there who think I'm smart, so, you know, twice the network :)
If you don't have a network, make one. Think about doing an unpaid internship at a company that has a future. (Look into funding options from your uni for this kind of stuff.) Be careful with this one -- the network you create here must be valuable to justify the work and the resume gap.
I had the privilege once to speak with the former-CFO of Coke, and asked her (rather lamely) how one winds up being the CFO of Coke. She said, "If you really want a big-time job you gotta be aggressive and you gotta be charming."
Note that "qualified" is not a part of that sentence.
I can program!
Broken thinking. Getting hired isn't about being good at the job. It's about being good at getting hired, which is a largely orthogonal skill set.
Need new skill set = need to practice. Interviews are like first dates: they pretty much all suck, but get less nerve-wrecking with practice.
I should mention that once you have job 1, the network it creates (or doesn't create) will bear heavily on how your search for job 2 goes. So take good care of your network at job 1. I've seen a ton of smart people with amazing resumes, who are actually quite good programmers, who can't find jobs because they are huge pains in the ass. The days of the cranky-bitch-genius-programmer are limited (if not completely over), because there are plenty of pleasant-genius-programmers out there who need jobs too.
Approach your job like a pro: learn the politics and the people, be friendly, be polite but not stodgy. Choose very carefully which personal details to share with which people. Never express a negative emotion unless you've thought about it extremely thoroughly. Never write an email to/from a work account that you wouldn't want the CEO to read. Get people to like you: morally it shouldn't matter, but practically it makes a gigantic difference to how your career will go.
Finally and of course most importantly, work your ass off and get results. Nothing will make boss-man like you more than if you are generating two times the output as everyone else, with a smile and a joke handy at lunch time. It makes him look fabulous to his boss, and ten years from now when he's working at google (or whatever the "google" of 2020 will be, probably "google"), guess where you can ship an email and probably get a job.
Present what you have, clearly and professionally (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Missing something (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Missing something (Score:5, Funny)
General Rule For Getting Hired: Don't forget to include a complete collection of your /. postings. I can't think of a better way to impress a future employer than to show them just how funny and clever you really are.
Does this include postings with timestamps between 9-5 during your previous periods of employ?
You laugh, but... (Score:3, Insightful)
This is addressed to people at least a year away from looking for a job:
Use /. and other technical and even non-technical internet presences as if they were your portfolio.
Think carefully about everything you post, everywhere. What you did 2 years ago may not hurt you but technical mistakes or off-putting comments made in the last few months may hurt you.
Have a "main" web site that's about yourself that includes links to the sites you want your employer to look at along with your handles on each site. Use
Re:Missing something (Score:4, Insightful)
It appears that you missed some level of social networking during school. I volunteered to work for the sysadmin at the community college I go to...I graduate in may and will go to uni in the fall, in the meantime, he put in a good word for me and it helped me get an internship at a sizeable area hospital that will look *great* on my resume (if they dont hire me when i finish uni)
Why is the parent modded +5 insightful? Let me translate this from 'holier art than thou' to English
Way to be helpful, might as well utter that old adage, "You should have thought about it before."
Re:Missing something (Score:5, Insightful)
Way to be helpful, might as well utter that old adage, "You should have thought about it before."
That doesn't alter the fact that however the point was presented, or however unintentionally up-his-own-arse the person making the point may have seemed to take the more negative stance, it is a very valid point. Networking can help a lot in may cases.
Maybe it is the Sunday evening pub meal and drinks talking (as I'm not usually one to give the benefit of the doubt!) but I didn't read the post you replied to as "this is what I did but you are too late nyar nyar n nyar nyar", but more as "this is what I did and this is how it helped my plans". The OP could still try the technique - there may be opportunities locally for some sort of technical volunteer work that could be used as the same sort of "CV fodder" spring-board and/or to gain a good reference for future applications for paid work. While the relatively easy-to-access college volunteer work option has gone for the OP there are likely to be opportunities to look for at this later stage. There may well be departments/organisations related to the University or its student bodies or local charities that could use some technical help but can ill afford a trained/accredited resource. If you can get in contact with someone like that at an appropriate time it can be a win/win situation: they get the temporary technical help they need but can't actually afford and the OP gets some CV fodder and/or a useful reference, or at least some experience that could be talked about at interview. Having some real world "dealing with users" / "dealing with customers" / "dealing with management" / "real-world problem solving" experience to talk about critically in an interview can make a massive difference to your chances once you get as far as the interview - it can indicate to the interviewer that not only do you know some facts/techniques but you are also capable of applying them outside academic situations and are capable of dealing with the real people in the real world at the same time. (by "talk about critically" I don't mean just "having a go" about the things that were/went wrong, I mean "what went well and why, what could have been done better, how would you approach the same task again if you had the power of hindsight, how were other people/resources helpful or not" and so on - constructive critique of your progress and experience)
Ever if you don't even manage any of that the exposure, through volunteering, to work outside an academic environment might teach you some useful stuff - even if only "I don't actually like X" or "I more enjoy Y and I'm more proficient in it than Z" or "hmmm, I didn't realise I would need A so much, maybe evidence of reading around / practising / otherwise persuing that area will help me jump from the CV stage to the interview stage more easily".
If you have time and can find volunteer work it will rarely be a disadvantage to you - especially if you are otherwise completely unemployed because it isn't like there would be a lot else practical to fill your time with. This in itself helps a CV/application look more attractive - which would you rather interview from the choice of people who graduated six months ago: those who have sat on their hands for six months doing nothing more than scanning jobs adverts and similar, or the people who have done, or tried to do, something practical with some of the time they had available?
To cut a long story short: as pointed out by the responder above both networking and volunteering can help and the two techniques can be mutually supportive of each other. And if you are not lucky enough to find any good opportunities, what have you lost by trying?
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Missing something (Score:5, Insightful)
That posting was two years ago, and he says he's a student. The fact that a student was making elementary errors in C++ two years ago hardly means that's incompetent for an entry-level position now.
Re:Missing something (Score:4, Insightful)
Correct. I don't know if lalena came out of the womb writing immaculate C++ code or something, but obviously (s)he does not understand the concept of "Education". Everyone has to start somewhere, and that somewhere is usually really basic stuff that years later you cannot believe you ever had a problem with.
If I was hiring for an entry level position and I saw that, I'd think "Hey, this guy knows how to go get answers when he doesn't know what to do." Yeah, sounds lame, but it is unbelievable how many IT guys/programmers that I have run into who don't seem to understand how to use the web (Search, Forums, etc.) to find answers. If they don't know an answer they ask a coworker. If the coworker doesn't know the answer the call a consultant or try some shitty workaround. After seeing this waaaay too often I consider knowing how to use resources to be a pretty decent "Soft Skill".
Re:Missing something (Score:4, Interesting)
couldn't figure out why a string named string was a problem
You know something? I ran that code through g++, and after adding an #include for cstdlib (to get "system()") it compiled just fine. Having a string named string is actually perfectly valid c++, compilers that can't handle it are just broken.
Re:Missing something (Score:4, Interesting)
#include <iostream>
::Fnord(9);
class Fnord {
int x;
public:
Fnord(int x) : x(x) { }
int operator ()() const { return x; }
operator int() const { return 2*x; }
};
int x() {
Fnord Fnord(3);
return Fnord() *
}
bool Fnord(double x) {
return x > 5;
}
int main(int argc, char **argv) {
std::cout<<x()<<" "<<Fnord(4)<<"\n";
class Fnord Fnord(7);
std::cout<<Fnord<<" "<<Fnord()<<"\n";
return 0;
}
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Here's my story, for what it's worth...
I graduated from U of Illinois in Spring of '90 with a CS degree. Unfortunately, I kept my head down in school, so all I had was classwork, and I spent summers working in my dad's business. Both of those added up to zero experience.
I finally got an interview in October based on a newspaper ad, and borrowed my grandma's car to go to it (I wasn't sure mine would make it the 90 miles, and hers had air conditioning - I wanted to look decent.) The interview went OK, and I e
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
He's graduating now, so that means at the end of his second year he couldn't figure out why a string named string was a problem, ...
If you reject based on this, you will have carefully selected, at great expense to your company, a workforce consisting entirely of people who hide all their sophomore homework assignments.
A recruiting manager who inflicted this on me would not get a favorable performance review. In fact, I would consider it career limiting. You might as well measure how well they glued macaroni to construction paper at age 8.
I agree with others who state that they only hire the best people they can find.
In which case you will select people based on reliable, major positive measures of skills (loop
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
"I think employers trawling old web forums to dig up any dirt they can find is just peachy keen, and anyone who doesn't go along with the status quo by constant paranoid identity-hopping is an idiot!"
I'm not an employer, but personally I'd rather work with someone who will own up to their past mistakes rather than hide from them, especially if I'm in a situation where the cost of hiring is high.
"Oops. I added a huge bug to the last release, and it's going to need an emergency patch. I'll just quit, claim it's a family problem, and hope nobody notices before I get a new job."
An identity carries reputation. Sometimes, even a slightly-tarnished history is better than none at all. The employers are already
Try working for the government. (Score:3, Insightful)
If the private sector wont hire, maybe the government will?
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
You can't beat being really good at what you do for getting jobs. It's almost magic!
Also, it helps if you're not a dick and you don't smell bad. People don't like hiring or working with dicks or people who reek.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Rude? No. It's the simple (if perhaps unpleasant) truth. The single most important thing that can happen during your course of study is your internships. When you graduate with your shiny new CompSci degree, you should already have experience. Your competition will.
I didn't do the all important social networking part while in college, and that set my career back by at least 3 years. You see, no one explained to me that the internships were the important thing. I was busy trying to learn what the profe
Re:Call the boss (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Call the boss (Score:4, Insightful)
It still boggles the mind how we receive null and void experience resume's from guys that seem more jaded than people with 10 years in the field. If you don't show a positive as to why a company should hire you, guess where your resume will be filed? Right in the circular filing cabinet.
Testing is a bad path (Score:5, Insightful)
As someone who's hired a lot of developers, I can tell you now that going down the Testing path is a terrible idea.
As all good Software Engineers go, Developers Make Bad Testers(tm), and the same goes for the reciprocal. Testing and developing require two completely different mindsets. When we advertise developer positions, we get swarms of testers applying. Unless they've got something else to show for it, their application goes straight in the bin.
The best advice I can give you: contribute to an open source project.
This tells us three things: You actually can cut code, you're motivated enough to see something through, and money isn't your primary motivator.
Re:Testing is a bad path (Score:5, Insightful)
"money isn't your primary motivator"...or in other words, "we can manipulate/trick/persuade you into working 80 hours weeks for nothing"
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Or they just want people who love what they do.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
There is a lack of candidates who can program and who are prepared to work 16-20 hrs a day for peanuts for a corporation who will sling them out the door at zero notice.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
I think what he means is that a lot of people want to work in IT just because the money is better than being an accountant or whatever. These people are usually (but not always) crappy coders because they're not really all that more interested in IT than accountancy. When I look to hire a guy as a programmer, I want to hire the guy that has been tinkering around with PCs since he was 10.
Re:Testing is a bad path (Score:5, Funny)
This tells us three things: You actually can cut code,
Not only that, my graduation project consisted not only of CUT code, but also COPY and PASTE code!
So, how much will I earn a month?
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
BAD IDEA.
From my experience working for a large company, people who start off in test have a very hard time getting out of it.
The purpose of the HR department (Score:5, Interesting)
The purpose of the HR department is to come up with bizarre and absurd reasons why mid-level supervisors can't get the human resources that they need to keep their division profitable.
All the other functions of a 'human resources' department could be done by computer or out-sourced to some distant third-world country. So the alleged humans in the HR department need to constantly come up with reasons to justify their salaries. So they specialize in coming up with weird and irrelevant reasons to prevent YOU from being hired.
My last job interview had a 22-year old ask me to explain a job termination that happened to me before she (always a she) was even born! How do you answer something like that?