The Vatican Lauds Hackers 375
angry tapir writes "Internet hackers have acquired a dubious reputation for piracy, sabotage and the spilling of sensitive secrets, but an authoritative Vatican publication appears to rehabilitate them and traces parallels between hacker philosophy and the teachings of Christianity. The charitable view of hackers was expressed by the Jesuit priest Father Antonio Spadaro in an article for the fortnightly magazine Civilta Cattolica, the text of which is vetted by the Vatican Secretariat of State prior to publication. Hackers should not be confused with crackers, Spadaro wrote, citing a definition penned by technology writer Eric S. Raymond: "Hackers build things, crackers break them.""
Hackers=christians?? (Score:5, Insightful)
Hackers are more like heretics. Trying to uncover the hidden truths. The church has a long history of trying to hide the truth.
Re:Hackers=christians?? (Score:4, Informative)
FTFA:
For all the common ground between Christians and hackers over the concepts of sharing, creativity and idealism, Spadaro acknowledged there were problems of compatibility between the Catholic Church's hierarchical organization and its focus on a "revealed truth" and the hackers' rejection of authority and of any hierarchy of knowledge.
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Yeah, but you have to love the terminology: "Internet hackers". "Your honor, I swear -- I never hacked the internet!"
I think the term "Internet hackers" is like "road warriors". When you hear road warrior, you don't think of a warrior attacking the street. You think of a warrior ON the road, just like Internet hackers are hackers that use the Internet.
Street fighter would be another example. Although, come to think of it, "crime fighter" would back up your point.
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It should be noted that Jesus's rejection of authority and of any hierarchy of knowledge lines up quite nicely with the Hacker manifesto, with only minor differences (such as "there are many ways to do things, but only one which will get you where you want to go"). Christ was upset with the Pharisees because they didn't write clean (legal/social/religious) code. Despite what some in the Catholic church believe, Jesus did not assign all authority (and associated responsibility) in heaven and on earth solel
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... for having their "cracks" attacked.
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Re:Hackers=christians?? (Score:4, Informative)
The Copts would disagree with you. As would several ethnic Christian groups in the far-East that were founded by Apostles other than Peter. Catholicism is as much a branch as they are.
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Does it really matter? Modern religion is a bunch of BS arranged to control the population in line with the morals of those who run it.
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Re:Hackers=christians?? (Score:5, Funny)
You can go in the winter, when it's cooler.
Re:Hackers=christians?? (Score:5, Funny)
Plus hackers use the Internet, which encourages satanism!
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[citation needed]
Re:Hackers=christians?? (Score:5, Insightful)
The Catholic Church as a religious organization has a long history of trying to find and understand the truth, theologically. The Catholic Church as a political organization, as with any political organization, has a long history of trying to hide the truth of the politics of the church. In these writings, the comparison is made to the former, not the latter.
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The Catholic Church as a religious organization has a long history of trying to find and understand the truth, theologically.
Which suffers from the presupposition that something like a theological truth exists in the first place. If it is all a made-up pile of crap, all that "truth-seeking" is simply mental masturbation.
Re:Hackers=christians?? (Score:5, Insightful)
People spend a lot of time thinking about the original meaning of other people's made-up piles of crap. You can get advanced degrees in art history and literature.
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At first I thought you were just trolling, but then I realized: you're a three-digit Slashdot user, so I expect you're a leading expert on "mental masturbation."
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Re:Hackers=christians?? (Score:4, Interesting)
The Catholic Church as a religious organization has a long history of trying to find and understand the truth, theologically.
And scientifically, because they believe God to be revealed in creation. Even in the context of the Galileo trial the Roman Catholic Church said that if the science showed Galileo to be right then they would have to change their doctrines. Yes, there are metaphysical underlying what they do, but there are metaphysical assumptions underlying science too -- the positivists never succeeded in eliminating them, and Popper argued that it was impossible to do so.
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http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/1615bellarmine-letter.html [fordham.edu]
That isn't exactly saying that if he is right they would have to change their doctrine, it's more like saying "We're right no matter what, so even if you're right and we're wrong, we're still right." In fact, Galileo's greatest contribution to the church is that, by showing the Book of Genesis to be systematically false (and hence by implication casting doubt on the entire "infallible" Bible, written by the holy fa
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Don't confuse the faith with the religion (which're differing things...). Every "church" has that sort of long history (and in some cases a worse history...) of trying to hide the truth.
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Iconoclasts too. No respect for authority. Enlightened. Geekish.
Galileo was a hacker. Newton was a hacker. David Hume was a hacker. They just hacked the code of the Universe, the code of epistemology. The church hated that.
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Apocalypse (Score:5, Insightful)
So the Vatican gets the difference between hacker and cracker before the general populace...
We have entered the beginning of the end.
Re:Apocalypse (Score:4, Funny)
I thought "cracker" just meant "white person."
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Do you really believe for a second that the Vatican doesn't understand what it's doing? I mean, besides the whole child-rape thing, that's failure of sphincter control.
The Catholic church has been a vehicle for a variety of political ends throughout history. We know of many ways in which this is true; with the Church's reputation for secrecy it may be assumed that it is true in ways which are not common knowledge as well.
The Vatican has always been one of the organizations that understands what it is doing;
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Almost. a crackers doesn't 'break things'.
so you can hold off on the announcement of any Ahackalypse.
heh.
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I'm amazed. Truly amazed. For a mainstream organization to define hacking and cracking in nice, black and white terms is somehow very satisfying.
It's been what, 2000 years or so, and they've finally done something okay. I honestly applaud their common sense on this.
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Yeah, me too. Honestly, the Vatican would have been the last place I'd have guessed to get it right.
You'll notice it was a Jesuit (Score:2)
The Jesuits in particular have a long history of intellectual research, so it's not surprising that one or more of them may *get* the distinction between hacking and cracking.
"finally done something okay" (Score:3)
Copernicus was also a Catholic priest. Georg
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Except they don't understand it at all.
Hacking culture is incredibly anti-authoritarian. That's not going to work in Xtianity which is nothing but an appeal to an authority (authors of the bible, jesus, etc).
Hacking is about solving problems in a quick and dirty manner. Its the "bazaar" of open ideas and religion is, you guessed it, the "cathedral" of top down closed ideas controlled by an elite and followed by an credulous public.
On the plus side, I see the Vatican's PR people are doing a good job. Front p
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Interestingly, "not quite". It is doubtful the real, conservative institution of church would ever agree with it, but the Church as it should be - by enlightened, ethical and wise people (yes, there are few in there, if not all that many), does agree with it.
The church (as it should be) has the ultimate priority of some moral goals. Commonwealth. Cooperation. Peace. Wisdom. These pretty much agree with ultimate goals of hackers.
It also has some means to achieve these goals. Authority. Blind faith. Rituals t
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It also has some means to achieve these goals. Authority. Blind faith. Rituals that appeal to lesser minds. Rigid structure and deep traditionalism. These methods are completely in conflict with all Hackers represent by themselves.
Really? Try asking a group of hackers about the correct placement of braces in C code.
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Except they don't understand it at all.
Hacking culture is incredibly anti-authoritarian. That's not going to work in Xtianity which is nothing but an appeal to an authority (authors of the bible, jesus, etc).
True of some branches of Christianity, certainly not all. It's probably fair to say that the ones that go in for authority are more organised so you're more likely to know about them, though. But there are plenty of Christians who challenge the authority of the Bible, the Church and traditional understanding of Jesus.
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On the plus side, I see the Vatican's PR people are doing a good job. Front page slashdot? Nice. Gotta fill them pews.
Yeah, they should see a nice uptick of 0 this week.
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Except they don't understand it at all.
Hacking culture is incredibly anti-authoritarian. That's not going to work in Xtianity which is nothing but an appeal to an authority (authors of the bible, jesus, etc).
Hacking is about solving problems in a quick and dirty manner. Its the "bazaar" of open ideas and religion is, you guessed it, the "cathedral" of top down closed ideas controlled by an elite and followed by an credulous public.
On the plus side, I see the Vatican's PR people are doing a good job. Front page slashdot? Nice. Gotta fill them pews.
You could argue that hackers have got a lot in common with religious orders. Hackers have an established idea of how things should be and follow those ideals often with religious zeal. They hang around in small groups of like-minded people doing works that promote the way they see the world. The different groups often have similar, but not the same, ideals and go about promoting them in very different ways.
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religion is, you guessed it, the "cathedral" of top down closed ideas
Well, not really. Sure, many might claim that, their followers convinced in that... but there are crazy amounts of syncretism around.
When applying some rigor, it's not very clear if local flavors of Christianity are closer to Christianity from X century [1] or to pagan practices from the same time (in either case, vast majority of present "Christians" would be branded - and treated - as very strong heretics by "Christians" living just few short centuries ago)
1. The time of "National Baptism" myth fro
After all ... (Score:5, Funny)
And Martin Luther wrote the open source version.
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And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves, And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.
USURERS, USURERS, USURERS! *throws chairs, flips tables*
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"Users, users, users! " -- BOFH
There. Fixed it for you.
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as are many of the conservative Protestant churches in the USA today.
Such as? This is news to me as a conservative Protestant.
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Re:After all ... (Score:5, Funny)
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I know the christian tradition likes to label the romans as the evil ones, but truth is that in matters of religion (as in many other things), the Roman Empire was very progressive. In fact, if anything can be compared to an "Open Source Religion", then it's definitely the roman gods prior to the corruption to christianity. There you had a religion where you could bring your own god and have it accepted in the next release of the upstream branch. Try doing that with christianity.
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And Martin Luther wrote the open source version.
More like Tyndale [wikipedia.org] reverse engineered it from assembly (Latin) and open sourced it.
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Optimism (Score:2)
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>The Vatican tends to be a fairly conservative in its approach to technology...
How about, the fucking telescope
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>The Vatican tends to be a fairly conservative in its approach to technology... How about, the fucking telescope :) They didn’t like the earth "not the centre of the universe" thing much, bless.
You don't know much about Medieval cosmology or the Galileo trial, do you?
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Except they weren't wrong about that. Granted the practice of confession is bullshit without any theological basis, but the app itself was even more so as it hasn't even the typical legitimacy of a traditional rite.
Interesting (Score:5, Informative)
Eh... (Score:2)
"To create the biggest collaborative encyclopedia of Internet it is estimated that it took around 100 million hours of intellectual work, which is the equivalent of the time the citizens of the United States spend watching advertising on TV in a single weekend," Spadaro wrote.
Dude, what?
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I suppose both are true.
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What's wrong with the math?
300 million (roughly) citizens of the USA. 100 million hours means an average of 1/3 an hour of TV per citizen.
Do you really have trouble believing US citizens average 20 minutes of TV for a weekend?
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I think the point was that we watch 100 million hours of TV advertising, as in commercials.
But even then, 20 minutes of commercials would translate to like 90-120 minutes of TV time (not accounting for DVR's). That's a higher number, but still not hard to believe.
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The number is low, that would be roughly 20 minutes of TV per man woman and child that has American citizenship. Even when you account for the people who haven't got a TV or are unable to watch, the figure still seems low.
Re:Eh... (Score:5, Informative)
100 million hours of intellectual work, which is the equivalent of the time the citizens of the United States spend watching advertising on TV in a single weekend,"
The math works out to about ten minutes per person per day. Considering that a typical one-hour show has about twenty minutes of commercials, the 100 million hour figure is probably about right.
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Aren't Hackers Terrorists? (Score:2, Funny)
This must mean the Vatican now prefers bazaars over cathedrals.
Other important ESR quotes (Score:2, Interesting)
It's Victory in Iraq day today. The good guys -- Western civilization, the Coalition of the Willing, the United States, and the people of Iraq -- won this war. The bad guys -- Saddam Hussein's regime, al-Qaeda's jihadis, all their allies and enablers -- lost it. The entire world will be a better place because of this victory. And that is a proper thing to celebrate.
In the U.S., blacks are 12% of the population but commit 50% of violent crimes; can anyone honestly think this is unconnected to the fact that they average 15 points of IQ lower than the general population? That stupid people are more violent is a fact independent of skin color.
I think all teachers, day-care staff, and other adults in loco parentis for groups of children should be required to carry firearms on the job. Maintaining continued proficiency at rapid-reaction tactical shooting should be a condition of their continued employment. Their job is to protect children; if they are not physically, mentally, and morally competent to do that job, they donâ(TM)t belong in it.
Iâ(TM)m what PUAs call a âoenaturalâ, a man who figured out much of game on his own and consequently cuts a wide sexual swathe when he cares to. Not quite the same game theyâ(TM)re playing, however. For one thing, Iâ(TM)ve never tried to pick up a woman in a bar in my entire life. College parties when I was a student, yes; SF conventions, neopagan festivals, SCA events, yes; bars, no.
Also, and partly as consequence of where I hang out, it has been quite unusual for me to hit on women with IQs below about 120 â" and it may well be the case that Iâ(TM)ve never tried to interest a woman with below-average intelligence. (Er, which is not to say they donâ(TM)t notice me; even in middle age I get lots of IOIs from waitresses and other female service personnel. Any PUA would tell you this is a predictable and unremarkable consequence of being an alpha male.)
The Vatican speaks and misses! (Score:2)
I had a nice clever put down for the vat and the pope, but fuck it. Why take the time to type it, when they won't see it, nor understand it if they did.
The Vatican is like the mentally ill homeless dude who talks to himself and shouts crap all day.
Some entertainment value, but nothing here, keep moving.
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Except that the homeless dude doesn't have millions of idiots who not only believe in, but are willing to interfere with your life because of the crap he shouts.
And he probably doesn't have a few billions dedicated to inserting his crap into the laws and rules of society.
Putting the cart before the horse (Score:3)
From TFA: "Under fire are control, competition, property. It's a vision that is ... of a clear theological origin"
I guess it never occurred to Spadaro that putting control, competition, and property "under fire" might have had something to do with the origins of theology, rather than the other way around.
Geez, The Theology of St Raymond? (Score:2)
So what is the difference between a religion and a cult, anyway?
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Weren't they just denouncing the internet? (Score:2)
Gee, I wish they'd make up their mind. Maybe they're too busy trying to stay relevant. Or take your attention away from the whole child molestation thing.
Which was an isolated incident!
Well, a couple of them, actually.
Maybe more than a couple, but *we* certainly didn't know anything about it.
Well, maybe we'd heard a few rumors.
But we didn't move priests around to
The "technology writer" (hah!) responds (Score:3)
Since he quoted me, I have replied to the report on Spadaro's article at Imprimatur me! [ibiblio.org]
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I was just thinking that hacking is one of the few topics the church can comment on without egg or bodily fluids on their face.
Science.. no
Pedos.. no
History.. no
Morality.. no
Sex... no
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That's the point the church's comments on Pedophila would be dishonest at best with how they actually treat those who commit those crimes.
The only reason it has gotten as big as it has is because of standard church policy to assume that ALL men of god are above the law of men.
If the church didn't try to hide it but instead ostracized the priests involved at the time no one would say a thing. It is currently called the striesland effect. Trying to hide the truth unveils more of it.
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Also, it has nothing to do with IT.
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Dude and how many people still don't get it?
Why complain when someone gets it correct?
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Re:Captain Obvious. (Score:4, Insightful)
So you've been trying to clarify the difference but you insult people who clarify the difference.
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Dude i think you need to find your nearest monastery and spend some time with the brothers drinking beer.
You do know that monks during their "free time" brewed some very nice beers (and wines btw).
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Almost as weak as my spelling of "weak".
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Re:So who wants to join? (Score:5, Funny)
Church of Jesus Christ, Computer Programmer. Free kool-aid and cookies this Sunday.
Shouldn't that be Mountain Dew and Pizza?
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I just tried to think about the unobservable light of the universe needing to be much slower than the observable light; but I can't express it let alone thing about it. I need to scale 13.5 billion years down to 6k years I guess.
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However, you can become an altar boy and get fucked _by_ high ranking residents of the Vatican.
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You should really get over your anger issues before you post pejorative bullshit - it discredits the rest of your post.
We have nothing to fear (Score:2)
True religion has absolutely nothing to fear from people who question things. Go ahead and wonder how Jesus did what he did, and try to imagine how you could copy it. Jesus' signs and works were given precisely so you would believe that he was really, truly God's son, because no one else could have done what he did.
The signs are pretty impressive: fed thousands from a handful loaves and fishes (twice); walked on water; calmed storms with a word; healed diseases at a touch, including the hearing and seein
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True religion has absolutely nothing to fear from people who question things. Go ahead and wonder how Jesus did what he did, and try to imagine how you could copy it. Jesus' signs and works were given precisely so you would believe that he was really, truly God's son, because no one else could have done what he did.
Unfortunately to that POV, the reports in the bible have been extensively researched by many factions. And any of them who are not religiously motivated come to roughly the same conclusion: It's a badly cobbled together mixture of folk lores.
Even the historic facts don't check out. Now tell me why I should "believe" in some miracle described in some book that can't even get birth and death dates of important historical people right?
You figure out how to do any of those, you let me know how that works out.
That was easy, I thought you'd come up with something challenging.
First, dum
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I bet you'd find more child molesters among hackers than among priests. Just sayin'.
I doubt that, but even if it were true, you forget that priests have laid claim to the moral high ground and hackers have not. In fact, "hacker" and "pedophile" doesn't necessarily collide. One is disgusting, and it diminishes your worth as a human being, but not necessarily your capabilities or claims as a hacker. For a priest, preaching about the love of god, and teaching people how to behave and claiming that you know what is right and wrong and then raping a child does very much collide.
Or, in semantic
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It's sad that when someone mentions anything to do with the Catholic church, the first thoughts are not related to how much it has helped people.
I agree that it is sad, but it is also accurate. It's also not the fault of techies, but the fault of the Catholic church for engaging in bad behavior. How many people have AIDS today because the Catholic church lied to them about contraception? How many children are going hungry because their parents can't feed 8 kids? How many people live with unnecessary g
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fact that science seems to have thrived much better under other religions than christianity
Yes, let's talk about that. Science flourished very well in the Middle East for a couple centuries and then pretty much stopped by the 13th century or so. Meanwhile, the place where most scientific and cultural progress was made for most of the last 2000 years was Christian Europe. The first universities? Christian Europe. The first hospitals? Christian Europe. The preservation and propagation of Hellenistic ph