Miguel De Icaza Forms New Mono Company: Xamarin 286
rubycodez writes "After being thrown out on the streets by Attachmate, the purchasers of Novell, Miguel De Icaza has formed a new company Xamarin to make .NET development tools for Android and iOS. The company will also provide commercial international Mono support. There are those who would say Mono poses a risk of drawing Microsoft patent or other IP litigation for its inclusion in some major Linux distributions, and that these recent events might be the beginning of the demise of widespread use of Mono and other .NETiness in open source software, a good thing."
The cross-platform .NET? (Score:5, Insightful)
They failed in their first attempt at making Mono a ubiquitous development platform by keeping their mobile ports behind a paywall. Now they lost access to those proprietary parts and decided to start again, in exactly the same fashion... brilliant.
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what is so great about C# that people seem willing to practically move heaven and earth to shoehorn it in to every platform they can get their hands on.
What's so great is the popularity of Microsoft products in a few areas. For example, Xbox Live Indie Games won't run anything but C# and other languages that compile to .NET bytecode meeting some specific criteria. The big advantage of C# is that your video game for Xbox 360 and your game for another platform can share game logic.
System.Reflection.Emit not in XNA (Score:5, Informative)
And like you noted, .NET apps or games can be written in many different languages. He seems to like Python
I was under the impression that IronPython and other DLR languages required System.Reflection.Emit, which was not present in the subset of the .NET Framework supported by Xbox 360 [mindcontrol.org] and Windows Phone 7 last time I checked.
All the languages can also use the huge library of code and API's.
The libraries also have to be written in pure .NET code, unlike in Python where it's common to package a C++ library as a module.
Re:The cross-platform .NET? (Score:4, Insightful)
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So you complaint is that Mono isn't "a complete .net" and even if it was, then it would be bad because it's "a complete .net".
Am I reading you right?
Mono has addressed the legal issues by seperating the Microsoft proprietary stuff from the ISO standard stuff, and supplying non-proprietary alternatives to several parts of the system. If Microsoft sues, they can easily jettison the proprietary stuff. If you're concerned about it, don't write to the proprietary API's.
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You remember incorrectly. Mono has developed replacements that work the same on all OS's, such as GTK# to replace Windows Forms.
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Bull, you can build apps that work perfectly on Linux, Mac and Windows without using anything from the proprietary .NET stack. You use GTK# instead of Winforms, and you use Tao instead of DirectX, and you use ServiceStack instead of WCF.
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Re:The cross-platform .NET? (Score:4, Insightful)
Some of it's probably personal preference -- I'd personally rather use almost anything than Eclipse, though I know a lot of people love it. (For me, at its best, it's a pair of left-handed scissors and I'm right handed, and I don't get a lot of 'best' days.)
Some of it might be the versatility of the .NET framework with respect to language -- for example, if you prefer writing Python to Java, in theory in the .NET world you could just switch over to writing in IronPython instead of C# and call it a day, and either way it becomes .NET bytecode.
Some of it might just be a desire for competition. For several years Java was the de facto standard for solving a lot of kinds of problems -- for example, writing custom apps for businesses. That having happened, Java as a language really stagnated in a bad way. It wasn't until C# surpassed Java (in terms of features) that Java really got going and was driven to improve again. In that sense, even if you prefer Java or something else to .NET, having .NET around will probably spur it to be better.
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In theory, .NET is the only language/runtime/framework/library you'll ever need, but in practice......
in practice, you use different tools for different jobs. Line of Business apps are still being written in Java, more "hardcore" apps are still being written in C++, more webserver apps are being written in PHP. I think I like this state of affairs, because I wouldn't want to be tied into a single system forever. Apart from being a bit boring, you hit the reason right - it stagnates and never sees any need t
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I've programmed in both Java & .Net languages (C# & VB.Net). I'd say that advantage is that the .Net languages benefited from having Java go first. You might think of them as "Java with the rough edges taken off".
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Here are my reasons.
(1) The API is very well document. Admittedly, Java and python are about as good. All three seem to have differences in where their documentation excel/lack, for me the .NET documentation seems a bit better.
(2) Even considering Psycho, it is faster than Python, and depending on the task, the speed can go between slightly faster, parity and slightly slower than Java
(3) Visual Studio is an excellent IDE, probably my favorite (but opinions vary). I just started using MonoDevelop, and it has
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it is compiled bytecode designed to run in a virtual machine, it does automatic garbage collection, and it appears to be the premier platform for MS development.
He's a troll. At most he can complain about you using byte code, MS calls it CIL Common intermediate language. They have their name for their VM too. But that's like saying "I'm not riding a vehicle, I'm riding a car".
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Who didn't see this coming? (Score:4, Interesting)
A. Miguel.
"Xamarin" - because "Ximian" was already taken.
Re:Who didn't see this coming? (Score:4, Insightful)
Ximian was a company founded by Miguel in 1999.
And also, what has this got to do with Miguel "not seeing this coming"? The thing people were beating him over the head with was the theory that Microsoft would step in and sue people left, right and centre. This isn't that, this is Mono's supporting company failing of its own accord, it has nothing to do with the viability of Mono.
Good news? (Score:5, Interesting)
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If it's under the GPL and LGPL, it's going to be a rough case Attachmate would be making, considering that it's open licensed and they just kicked the team to the curb. Unless Attachmate has enforceable non-competes, along with carrying Mono forward, they're not going to have all that much of a case. Violating Copyright? Not really.
As much as I wish that this stuff would have MS take the spectre of patent lawsuits away from this, or better yet, just die the death it needs to- this isn't a concern I have
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If developers writing competing software having prior knowledge of [parts of] the code of the original was not a problem, the concept of clean room reverse engineering wouldn't exist.
But since the Mono project used not to accept contributions from people that have seen Microsoft's shared source code, they are definitely aware of the danger and must be confident that a lawsuit from Attachmate isn't coming.
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That road goes both ways you know, maybe MS should start supporting dalvik.
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By charging for the apps?
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Or should developers of software for the Android platform just plan to ignore Windows Phone 7
Yes. It's not going anywhere.
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Or should developers of software for the Android platform just plan to ignore Windows Phone 7, Xbox 360 [...]?
Yes. [Windows Phone 7 is] not going anywhere.
Should developers also just plan to ignore Xbox 360?
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What percentage of these games were written in mono?
I don't have a list for ad supported stuff like Angry Birds but the Roveo people said they were planning to make a mill
No Android-powered game console (Score:3)
Otherwise, there is no way I'm going to use a second class dev environment on my first choice platform. Here is a list of the top grossing games on Android
Does an Android-powered device capable of running apps come in a set-top form factor? I haven't seen one. If not, then Xbox 360 is pretty much the only platform for indie console games, and any such game needs to be written in .NET so that it can run in the XNA environment.
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Rewriting code legalities (Score:5, Informative)
If it's under the GPL and LGPL, it's going to be a rough case Attachmate would be making, considering that it's open licensed and they just kicked the team to the curb.
The FOSS code is not a concern here.
The issue is the proprietary code that Miguel et al worked on in Novell, the Android and iPhone runtimes. That is owned by Attachmate now, and this new startup contains exactly the same coders, who are intentionally going to write the exact same product from scratch - they will be 100% "source compatible" with the old runtimes.
So legalities are a reasonable concern. Even if no code is copied, the same people writing the same product - immediately after writing it the first time - may lead to basically the same code being written. It might be hard to prove no code was copied even if none was. Lawsuits are filed for much less.
Of course, this only matters if Xamarin is a big success - no one sues a failure. Time will tell.
I wonder if Apple would allow it... (Score:3)
Doesn't Apple have a prohibition of using a framework other than Objective C for their iOS apps? I know some tools get around this by making Objective C source code.
Re:I wonder if Apple would allow it... (Score:5, Insightful)
Doesn't Apple have a prohibition of using a framework other than Objective C for their iOS apps?
Apple has since rescinded this provision, apparently because it was causing Apple to lose money as games and other popular iOS apps that use internal scripting engines were getting kicked off the App Store.
Re:I wonder if Apple would allow it... (Score:5, Interesting)
More likely because DOJ was beginning to probe on the behalf of Adobe.
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Objective C is not a framework.
You are right, the iOS SDK has frameworks in it which are based on the frameworks in OS X.
There are those who would say... (Score:5, Insightful)
...that the submitter should just state his opinion rather than hiding behind weasel words.
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demise of open source ".NET-ness", a good thing? (Score:2)
That would be like saying that SCO's lawsuits had merit for including major Linux distributions in it's target scope, would it not? And
17 USC 1201(f) (Score:3)
and in many ways immune to patent litigation (although possibly not DMCA reverse engineering litigation -- I've heard that folks thought that was a possibility at one time)
Reverse engineering for the express purpose of interoperability is not grounds for a DMCA suit according to 17 USC 1201(f) [cornell.edu]. Say what you want about Universal v. Reimerdes, but I'd bet it would have gone down much differently if DVD Jon had waited until Linux had stable UDF support before releasing DeCSS.
from the point of view of getting things done (Score:4, Insightful)
it's not a good thing that Mono should go away
it is a good thing from the point of view of ideology, however
but as a working programmer, i like getting things done. to hell with the ideologues
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The point of view of the ideologues is that they want it to remain legal for you to get things done. What assholes.
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Then stop being a consumer and start being a developer. I have never worked with Mono as a developer but some of the FOSS programs that where written with it are very useful. Since they are FOSS I can fix and modify them if I wish. But if you do not like them it is your right to not use them. You just have no right to crab about other choices since they do not really effect your freedom to write what you want.
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Parent said entity, not standard. The whole point of having a standard is to be able to have more than one entity provide a compatible device.
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you mean a separate entity like mono?
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the borg eyewear on the bill gates icon is a joke, not something to take as a realistic observation. you also might have noticed it is 2011, and google and apple are eating microsoft's lunch. in such a business environment, extending .NET use works to microsoft's advantage, and not something they want to discourage
please get your mind out of 1996. thanks
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While I have given up all hope that you will learn to operate the shift key, could you at least refrain from starting a sentence in the subject line and finishing it in the post proper? I hope for your sake that you hire someone else to write your resume/linkedin.
i hope for your sake (Score:2)
you grow to understand informality, and recognize the effort to be formal and proper all the time is pointless and without merit
that some brittle mind expects formality where none is due, like in a fucking comment board, is someone that does not deserve any respect. demonstrate to me flexibility of mind, and i will begin to consider your opinions worthy of consideration. otherwise, fuck off
Surely... (Score:5, Insightful)
Surely thats a matter of opinion?
Re:Surely... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Surely... (Score:4, Insightful)
First of all, it's not a "vague" connection between .NET and Microsoft, they created and own the platform FFS. The connection is as explicit as can be.
Second, Microsoft has proven time and time again that given half a chance will fuck over anything and anybody that stands in their way. And has never stopped trying to take out FOSS, GPL, Linux, open standards and, again, pretty much anything they see as threatening their cosy monopolies. As we speak they're mounting another covert attack on Linux using software patents.
Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me. Trust Microsoft? Sorry, never again.
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People's lack of trust in Microsoft's behaviour is not some paranoid delusion but the result of years of experience of watching them misbehave. How do you know that Microsoft won't try to say that Mono violates their patents? They've already said that Linux does, but in the case of Mono they may well be able to prove it. I work in C# .NET and I really enjoy my job but I wouldn't trust Microsoft not to shit on a competitor. Even a brief look at their long and chequered legal history would show that.
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Please cite, specifically, what Mono or C# brings to open source platforms that aren't already there and done better. There's nothing new in C#, and the JVM is already taking off with new programming languages, plus it's finally fast enough for most everything. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad that C# is exposing programmers to advanced lang
I don't get it (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:I don't get it (Score:4, Interesting)
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if they're running on Linux, they're going to go with a language that's native to the platform, like Java.
Say a company wants to make an application available to the public, and the public owns a mix of iOS, Android, and Windows Phone 7 devices. But the developers don't want to perform a complete, error-introducing rewrite of the application logic when porting the application to another platform. So they have to write the application logic* in a language that iOS, Android, and Windows Phone 7 devices can all run. The only ones I can think of are C# and other languages that compile to verifiably type-safe IL.
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N-version programming (Score:3)
That company would be best advised to bite the bullet and implement it 3 times...using the correct and supported languages for the targeted platform
Then what method do you recommend for ensuring that a program written in Objective-C, a program written in Java, and a program written in C# do exactly the same thing in all circumstances? Which N-version programming [wikipedia.org] tools do you recommend?
How to afford, and how to verify? (Score:2)
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For crying out loud, Microsoft created their
Xbox 360 is not an also-ran (Score:2)
Given that, why would you want to fall for using the platform they control( MS .Net) to create applications for the 2 dominant phone platforms, iOS and Android, so you can get the also-ran Windows Phone 7
True, Windows Phone 7 might be considered an "also-ran" worthy of ignoring, but Xbox 360 is not. Like applications for Windows Phone 7, Xbox Live Indie Games also use the .NET Framework.
PhoneGap can be slow to respond (Score:2)
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Most companies won't touch it...if they're running on Linux, they're going to go with a language that's native to the platform, like Java.
What maks JAVA any more "natively" Linux than .NET or Mono?
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Those that are missing currently (almost entirely limited to entity framework and workflow) have open source alternatives already available (EG NHibernate for EF).
In terms of release cycles it varies fairly wildly. Mono actually was at release for several parts of Framework 4 before Microsoft had their version out of the door, Microsoft tend to be fairly verbose with the roadmap and also put out
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Not sure what you mean "native to the platform, like Java". Java is mostly platform-less (more or less) as most code can run unmodified in any platform, be it Linux, OS X or Windows (again, let me say "more or less". There are some differences between platforms, even in Java).
Also, most Linux home users already run Mono applications, like Banshee and Tomboy, which are part of the GNOME desktop.
That being said, in my opinion the biggest problem with Mono (apart from the whole patent debacle) is that it was a
It's open core- not free software, not open source (Score:5, Interesting)
From TFM:
last sentence isn't a quote (Score:2)
(bungled my html - that last sentence is a note from me, not a quote from the article.)
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I think the sentence specifically does not say what you think it says.
Do you know what open core is? (Score:2)
Take some free software, add non-free software, keep the source code for the latter to yourself, and do some advertising emphasising the free software base.
The quote I gave from TFM seems to say pretty clearly that this is their model. What's your point?
Obsession (Score:2, Insightful)
Miguel's obsession with creating an open source version of .NET borders on mono-mania [wikipedia.org].
LOL ... (Score:2)
Wow, he's gonna port his open source implementation of .NET to iOS.
That could rip a hole in the space-time continuum.
Isn't Xamarin... (Score:2)
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I don't know, it really is a country club in Africa [sa-westcoast.com], but I think Miguel went for "Tamarin", which is a type of monkey [wikipedia.org]. But unfortunately this name is already occupied by a Mozilla project [mozilla.org], which strangely is some kind of scripting language, and to his dismay is also being used as the name for a Java framework [sourceforge.net]. *head asplodes*
Not a "Good Thing" (Score:5, Insightful)
MOD PARENT UP (Score:2)
The day that FOSS comes up with a totally free CLR and CIL that allows static inclusion of the VM in the binary is they day that people can tal
it's just a platform (Score:4, Insightful)
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For me, as a non-programmer, the rally against .net is a call for simple cross-platform functionality. We are spending a lot of money on ERP/accounting software for my company, and due to the .net backend and client, we are forced to add windows servers and to forego mobile access. It does have a web client... that just works in IE.
The situation is typical in dealing with software that went down the .net path. It reduces flexibility and limits beneficial use.
Ok, everybody. Two things: (Score:4, Insightful)
1st of all:
Quit picking on Miguel. You may not share the same opinion as he on bigger issues, as do I, but treating him the way the majority here does is primitive. He deserves all respect and professional merit you can give. Unless you are Linus Torwalds, RMS or someone other of the rare few on which who's work his work is based on, you are not entitled to picking a fight with him or destructively ragging about his decisions and/or motives. The others actually aren't either, but at least they have a track record to back up their ego.
He's done considerable contributions to the cause of FOSS, more than most of humanity anyway and way more than anybody of the wannabees here on slashdot could ever dream of accomplishing, so suck up any stupid and/or ignorant and/or snide remarks you may have ready and just STFU. Thanks.
2nd: Mono may be a controversy in broader issues, but that's not to say it's not a good project. As for the product itself and products based of it: I know at least one that is a game changer and a major leap forward in its industry, that is based entirely on Mono and wouldn't be possible without it ( http://www.unity3d.com/ [unity3d.com] ). Cudos to Miguel and the Mono team for making it possible. I know for sure that the other large x-plattform around, Java, would have been beyond pointless as a foundation for realising this and would have failed miserably. Mono and Monodevelop are cool cross-plattform toolkits, and as far as I can tell they get the job done.
Who can say that about their pet FOSS project?
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Miguel is not the pope. Stop trying to treat him as such.
This is Slashdot, check your Lemming mindset at the door.
Mono is/was widespread? (Score:2)
beginning of the demise of widespread use of Mono and other .NETiness in open source software
This seems to VERY incorrectly imply there once was, or currently is, widespread use of Mono and other .NETiness in open source software. Is it a yogi-ism to say its so widespread that nobody uses it anymore?
shouldn't it be called Duo (Score:4, Insightful)
That reminds me, Miguel already has a dual personality with his proclaimed love of open source yet his constant admiration for everything made by Microsoft.
LoB
Good Luck Miguel (Score:2)
Haters are gonna Hate. That's just what they do.
I wish Miguel and his team the best of luck. I was actually reading Slashdot when Miguel started Gnome, actually remember the email announcement. Gnome was an incredible success. His other ventures all got bought out ( a successful exit strategy ).
If Xamarin would except micro-investments ( ie. 100K ), I'll be first in line to sign up. I've got something in the 401K, the wife has this ( morbidly weird ) funeral savings I might be able to get at. Heck, th
Commercial Support (Score:2)
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.NET has no business being on iOS
Then how do you recommend making one application whose business logic runs on Windows Phone 7 and iOS, or one video game whose game logic runs on both Xbox 360 and iOS? There's an old technique of splitting an application into a front-end and a back-end, allowing different presentation modules (input, graphics, etc.) for different platforms to share the same application logic. It has been called "I/O abstraction", "model-view-controller", or "multitier architecture", according to wh
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You bitch to Microsoft for not making that possible by not allowing native code.
The only set-top game platform for micro-ISVs (Score:2)
You bitch to Microsoft for not making that possible by not allowing native code.
I see no reason for Microsoft not to just ignore such complaints. Microsoft knows that it provides the only console for games developed by micro-ISVs. So it offers a Hobson's choice: develop in XNA, or just choose not to publish your game on any console at all.
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Anonymous Coward wrote:
.NET has no business being on iOS
Then how do you recommend making one application whose business logic runs on Windows Phone 7 and iOS, or one video game whose game logic runs on both Xbox 360 and iOS? There's an old technique of splitting an application into a front-end and a back-end, allowing different presentation modules (input, graphics, etc.) for different platforms to share the same application logic. It has been called "I/O abstraction", "model-view-controller", or "multitier architecture", according to whatever fad is in season. But this that works only if all platforms share a language in which to write the application logic. All Windows Phone 7 applications and all Xbox 360 Indie Games must be written in a language that compiles to verifiably type-safe IL, which rules out standard C++ and Objective-C.
Simple, don't bother with a Windows Phone 7 port. If MSFT cannot be bothered to support standard C++ for the core logic engine of games or apps then they have to be willing to not have apps ported to their platform. If they want to be a player then they have to be willing to compromise. Even Apple supports standard C++ in combination with Objective C.
What instead of Xbox Live Indie Games? (Score:2)
.NET has no business being on iOS
Then how do you recommend making one application whose business logic runs on Windows Phone 7 and iOS, or one video game whose game logic runs on both Xbox 360 and iOS?
Simple, don't bother with a Windows Phone 7 port.
I mentioned Xbox 360 too. What alternative to XNA Game Studio, App Hub, and Xbox Live Indie Games do you recommend?
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By the logic then why not put objective C on the xbox and windows phone 7.
Microsoft loves homebrew as long as it gets to lock people into using its tools on its platform.
Wine is just another subsystem (Score:2)
Having mono to run windows apps aka wine is great thing
And most of the cheerleading for MonoTouch and Mono for Android that I've seen in Slashdot comments has been toward the aim of interoperating with .NET-only platforms.
writing native Linux apps in mono [is] like using wine to write Linux apps
And how is the latter bad? Glibc implements a POSIX-compatible subsystem, Glib and GTK+ implement a GTK+ subsystem, Qt implements a Qt subsystem, and Wine implements a Win32-compatible subsystem.
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I would love it if .NET worked on Android and iOS, and Java Worked on iOS and Windows Mobile.
Why should developer have to recode their application for every Mobile OS? They are already on tight controlled budget (Normally can't sell an app more then $10.00, and they will get $7.00 from that sales).
This stuff about Open Source Purity really gets in the way of getting the job done, .NET will not go away any time soon. There are a lot of Apps and Business Logic out there in .NET that can probably be moved to
Compare Microsoft to Nintendo and Sony (Score:2)
Why hand that over to Microsoft by implementing some cross-platform version of a noose they can hang you with?
Compare the policies of the three video game console manufacturers:
In this case, Microsoft is the least of three evils.
The cr
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How does Microsoft letting you use .NET on a XBox, both of which are made by Microsoft, apply to bl8m8r's assertion that it may be a bad idea to spread the use of .NET on other platforms? I can only infer that the dangers he warns us about are:
1. Using a non-Microsoft product to develop .NET applications may open yourself to litigation from Microsoft or Oracle. Microsoft has a cross licensing agreement with Oracle that resulted from a court settlement with Sun [microsoft.com]. Novell had a patent deal with Microsoft, I a
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J# on XNA (Score:2)
Officially .NET is only cross platform with Microsoft products (eg. Windows and XBox). If my goal was to really be cross platform with other OS, using a language rather than a toolkit such as QT
Qt is not ported to Xbox 360.
I would pick Java [over] .NET since it is officially supported on Windows, Linux, and OSX by Oracle, and other OS through OpenJDK.
Say I write my video game in Java. How well does J#, Microsoft's implementation of the Java programming language for the .NET Framework, work with XNA?