Forgot your password?
typodupeerror
Java Open Source Oracle Upgrades

Oracle and the Java Ecosystem 157

Posted by samzenpus
from the a-different-approach dept.
First time accepted submitter twofishy writes "After an undeniably rocky start, which saw high profile resignations from the JCP, including Doug Lea (who remains active in the OpenJDK), and the Apache Software Foundation, Oracle is making significant efforts to re-engage with the wider Java ecosystem, a theme which it talked up at the most recent JavaOne conference. The company is working hard to engage with the Java User Group leaders and Java Champions, membership of the OpenJDK project is growing, and the company is making efforts to reform the Java Community Process to improve transparency. The firm has also published a clear, well-defined Java roadmap toward Java 8 and Java 9."
This discussion has been archived. No new comments can be posted.

Oracle and the Java Ecosystem

Comments Filter:
  • *Yawn* (Score:5, Insightful)

    by WildTangent (982186) on Monday January 16, 2012 @01:58PM (#38715398) Homepage
    Talk is cheap.
    • by stanlyb (1839382)
      In Oracle's case, it is expensive, for them. If only they had not tried to "embrace" the whole java community, but as they cannot go back in time, java is history, so to say.
      • Re:*Yawn* (Score:4, Insightful)

        by pak9rabid (1011935) on Monday January 16, 2012 @09:29PM (#38720370)

        ... java is history, so to say.

        No, it's not. And the reason it's not is because it's already entrenched. Hell, just last week [tiobe.com] it was reported that Java was still the #1 language being used; it's certainly not disappearing anytime soon. Oracle will get it right, or face hundreds of pissed off businesses and governments.

    • by Threni (635302)

      If they're still suing Google over Java they can fuck right off.

  • jigsaw (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 16, 2012 @02:02PM (#38715446)

    seeing what's happening on the modularization front i'm afraid it'll be just like the fiasco with log4j and jdk logging which came afterwards. modularization is what java applications (well, backend servers powering too complex enterprisey-apps) need, and that should be achieved through the means of easy to use osgi tools instead of yet another (sun|oracle) screwup mimicking an "oss standard".

    • Re:jigsaw (Score:4, Interesting)

      by randomlogin (448414) <{chris} {at} {zynaptic.com}> on Monday January 16, 2012 @02:52PM (#38716042) Homepage

      Modularization is what java applications (well, backend servers powering too complex enterprisey-apps) need, and that should be achieved through the means of easy to use osgi tools instead of yet another (sun|oracle) screwup mimicking an "oss standard".

      I think you're missing one of the main points of Jigsaw - which is modularizing the platform, not the application. This is especially important if Java is to get back into the embedded space, where JavaME and CDC are so antiquated it's just not funny any more. Having a range of well defined platform profiles which span everything from headless embedded devices up to a full enterprise stack (while using the same underlying codebase) would be a major step forward. Personally, I don't care what the implementation details are - the changes aren't going to stop anyone from using OSGi to modularize their applications if they want to.

  • by SplashMyBandit (1543257) on Monday January 16, 2012 @02:05PM (#38715488)
    Compared to other development platforms (eg. MS C++, C#.NET etc) the influence of Oracle is less important than many people may think. Basically the OpenJDK is more important than Oracle's commerical offering (the successor of the Sun JDK - which is very similar to OpenJDK as they have almost all source code in common). But even if this were not the case the Java 'world' has a lot of alterantives: the IBM JDK, GNU GCJ, Apache Harmony. This means that Oracle can try throw its weight around but it is not as devastating as Microsoft would be in the .NET world. This is one beauty (for end-users/developers) with the Java ecosystem.
    • by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 16, 2012 @02:08PM (#38715516)

      I disagree, OpenJDK (specially for Java 6) has many incompatibilities. Try running Intellij IDEA on it (they don't recommend it), or even some app servers.

      • by Necroman (61604) on Monday January 16, 2012 @02:47PM (#38715964)

        I would recommend against using OpenJDK 6 for anything really. OpenJDK 7 is a bit different though, as it is the official Java SE 7 reference implementation [wikipedia.org].

        I see OpenJDK 6 as their initial "hey, look at what we're working on", as they tried to completely open source the JDK (they had to re-write at least 4% of the Sun JDK when turning it into OpenJDK). With that re-write, lots of things were probably broken, and testing was required to get them working again. Now that OpenJDK 7 is out, Oracle, IBM and other will be putting their efforts into improving it and making it as complete as possible.

        • Have they fixed applet permission granting UI yet in OpenJDK 1.7? This trivial oversight is what breaks many banking site applets on OpenJDK6
      • by tokul (682258)

        even some app servers.

        Some app servers have compatibility issues if you run them on different Sun JRE/JDK version.

      • That might be right, however on the desktop client part it seems the situation is better.

      • Funny thing, we experienced the exact opposite. We have issues with various Oracle JDK6 version on Linux that we don't have with OpenJDK 6 versions. Our application would simply segfault when it reaches the set memory limit (instead of garbage collecting).

        • by acooks (663747)

          Oracle had (has?) its own JVM called JRockit, which is different from the Sun JVM. Which one were you referring to? Java stored procedures is a different matter all together.

    • by OverlordQ (264228) on Monday January 16, 2012 @02:10PM (#38715542) Journal

      But even if this were not the case the Java 'world' has a lot of alterantives: the IBM JDK, GNU GCJ, Apache Harmony. [...] This is one beauty (for end-users/developers) with the Java ecosystem.

      Until what you wrote for for one doesn't work on the other. Java likes to say it's cross platform, but there's still lots of implementation specific hangups in the various JREs.

      • Until what you wrote for for one doesn't work on the other. Java likes to say it's cross platform, but there's still lots of implementation specific hangups in the various JREs.

        It is cross platform as much as C/C++ is portable.

        I don't know why anyone would think either means no effort is ever required, because anyone can write a Java runtime or C compiler that doesn't work. It does't make the whole thing a lie.

    • by the computer guy nex (916959) on Monday January 16, 2012 @02:17PM (#38715610)
      I would say the majority of Slashdot readers using Java do so in an enterprise environment. The Java Enterprise Edition (JEE) specification is controlled by the JCP, where Oracle has heavy influence. JEE application servers adhere strictly to this spec.
      • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

        by afabbro (33948)

        I would say the majority of Slashdot readers using Java do so in an enterprise environment.

        I would say the majority of Slashdot readers using Java do so in class.

        • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

          by Bucky24 (1943328)
          This. I haven't had to use Java since I left school (and hell even in school we only used it to learn the basics of programming)
          • by Anonymous Coward

            This. I haven't had to use Java since I left school (and hell even in school we only used it to learn the basics of programming)

            Still looking for work, are you?

            Seriously, the only thing that comes close to Java in terms of job availability is .NET, and the two are more or less neck-and-neck.

            • by Bucky24 (1943328)
              No. I got a job a year before I left school. While it's likely that this is the reason I haven't had to touch Java since school (we're mostly a Perl/PHP shop), no one I know in my major has gotten a job where they had to deal with Java either. It's mostly C (And Objective C for the one who went on to be an iPhone dev).

              Like I said before, even in school they only covered it for one class, to teach the basics. After that it was C and Perl.
    • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward

      Of the alternatives you list, only the GNU GCJ is not shut down. Apache Harmony has been discontinued (retired to the Apache attic http://attic.apache.org/projects/harmony.html) and IBM has pulled their Harmony committers to OpenJDK instead (http://www.sutor.com/c/2010/10/ibm-joins-the-openjdk-community/).

    • by Anonymous Coward

      The Apache Harmony project shut down. Also, Oracle has been threatening to sue companies using their patents that don't agree with Oracle's ideas for Java. So Oracle still very much holds the reins.

  • by Anonymous Coward

    Oracle knows, the nineties were the best :D

  • I wish ... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Elgonn (921934) on Monday January 16, 2012 @02:12PM (#38715558)
    That OpenJDK could just get the lion share of development and mindshare. If LibreOffice can functionally replace OpenOffice there's hope for OpenJDK. Unfortunately LibreOffice had years of a head start on that front (functionally go-oo, etc).
    • by PCM2 (4486)

      That OpenJDK could just get the lion share of development and mindshare. If LibreOffice can functionally replace OpenOffice there's hope for OpenJDK.

      Unlikely. Java is too important to too many people. Imagine Java being run by a consortium of IBM, Red Hat, Hitachi, Samsung, Nokia, SAP, and about three hundred junior members, with nobody clearly in charge. I don't see how anything would ever get done. Part of what makes Java popular is that it tends to keep up with modern trends in computing (or even establishes them). If Java becomes the next Ada, some other technology will take its place.

  • Sounds promising (Score:4, Insightful)

    by msobkow (48369) on Monday January 16, 2012 @02:20PM (#38715652) Homepage Journal

    The Java Community Process, through a series of initiatives lead by chairman Patrick Curran, is aiming to improve its transparency and agility. JSR 348, which is the first in a series of reforms Oracle plans for the JCP, has passed final approval ballot. It represents relatively minor changes, but it is still an important step, requiring that in the future all Expert Groups conduct all of their business in public, using a public mailing-list and a public issue-tracker.

    It should be readily apparent from my own open documentation and planning approach for MSS Code Factory and Singularity One just how much I believe openness to be CRITICAL to running a modern technology endeavour. The days of closed door development and the sudden release of new technology products is not only disruptive to the industry and employment, it's a fundamentally wrong-headed approach to someone who believes in the GPL ethos as I do.

    Kudos to Oracle for realizing the way they were handling things was going against the principles of the way Sun had originally configured the Java community.

    • by kolbe (320366)

      Have no fear, Oracle ala Larry Ellison will find some way to screw it up in the end.

      Most people have ZERO faith in Oracle and there's a reason for that... OpenJDK or move to python or Scala or .NET/C#.

  • by Anonymous Coward

    Stop suing Google and get a fair license for Android if they choose to stay with SUN java and not OpenJDK. And let FREE operating systems distribute correctly built packages of Java. Then I might give a crap what Oracle is or isn't doing as far as engaging the community. Other then that they can go pound sand.

    • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

      by tlhIngan (30335)

      Stop suing Google and get a fair license for Android if they choose to stay with SUN java and not OpenJDK. .

      You do realize that J2ME (what Android uses) is the primary source of revenue for Java, right? It's why the patents are royalty free for J2SE and J2EE, but not for J2ME. All those featurephones pay to have that little-used JVM on them.

      So yeah, Google can license J2ME from Oracle, but not for free, otherwise Java really would die because it won't make any money at all.

      Of course, if Android implements f

      • You do realise Google are in trouble because they couldn't licence J2SE for phones (Sun/Oracle wouldn't allow it), J2ME is too limited for what they wanted to do and so Android is NOT based on it.

        This is the direct fallout of Sun's policy of barring J2SE use on mobile by withholding the tools needed to certify it.

  • Disclaimer: I am no Java expert.

    Is it the case that until Android came around, Java, the language, the libraries and the VM collectively known as "Java" was write once run everywhere platform? Or is was Oracle, now Sun being unfaithful in its representation of what Java really is?

    • by coder111 (912060) <[coder] [at] [rrmail.com]> on Monday January 16, 2012 @02:49PM (#38715978)
      Seriously, unless you are doing something weird, reasonably OK written java app would run under any platform. There might be some small issues, but cross-platform apps with Java are much much much easier to write than cross-platform apps with anything else.

      --Coder
      • by Blakey Rat (99501)

        Except it's *always* been "least common denominator". For example, Java runtimes have never supported the Windows named folders. (Basically, they hand you the Roaming App Data folder, tell you that's "home" and you're stuck with it-- there's no way of fetching other named folders or even taking the value it gives you and reliably finding the Documents folder using it.

        Basically, they took the bare minimum POSIX features, assumed that was all you need to support every OS ever, and implemented it with that ass

      • by c++0xFF (1758032)

        Speaking from current experience (porting a large codebase which includes several languages, including Java and C++), this is generally true. But that doesn't stop people from doing really stupid things.

        For example, previous developers on the code I'm working with decided to use Runtime.exec() everywhere. Need to copy a file? Try running 'cp' ... and be sure to hard-code the path where you think it will exist. Need a directory listing? Call 'ls' ... and be sure to rely on a specific output format for e

        • But that doesn't stop people from doing really stupid things.

          Oh, I hear that. The stories we could tell over beers!

          But even when using Java's "native mechanism", things like filename case sensitivity can still bite you. And here's another example. When I start a Java thread, does that run in the same OS process or not? And if the answer is "that depends", then that has some serious implications for availability, testing, and even security.

          Stroustrup famously quipped that Java is not platform independent -- it's a platform.

      • Seriously, unless you are doing something weird, reasonably OK written java app would run under any platform. There might be some small issues, but cross-platform apps with Java are much much much easier to write than cross-platform apps with anything else.

        Sure. If I'm writing an email client or something. But if I'm composing a complex system, then there are performance and functional characteristics that vary, and these could very well make or break the product. I appreciate the desire to defer architectural decisions to the last responsible moment. But picking the OS can drive so many other design decisions, that one should get that right almost from the beginning.

        With Java predominantly on the server side instead of in the browser, what exactly is the

    • by Anonymous Coward

      "Everywhere" is clearly not true, but I've been rather successful run my compiled Java server code on Windows, Linux, HP-UX, and even Solaris with only a few minor changes where I flubbed (windows pathing and such). In the last 10 years I think I had 1 single issue that was JRE related and it had something to do with how the HP JDK handled threading on a low level. Other than that it's been quite smooth. Now, at the other end of the spectrum with embedded java on cell phones and such it's been a total ni

    • by vlm (69642)

      Is it the case that until Android came around, Java, the language, the libraries and the VM collectively known as "Java" was write once run everywhere platform?

      I was there. It was never, ever that way. You couldn't even run multiple java apps on the same computer, because one service provider would only run under and support (made up version) 1.1 and another would only run under and support (made up version) 1.2 and they'd crash horrifically on each other's version. So you'd have workers with two PCs on their desk because they need access to both apps. It was just a nightmare.

      It was supposed to be multi-platform across anything, but it wasn't even as inter-com

    • by afabbro (33948)

      It's not whether or not it's true, it's whether or not anyone cared.

      When Java was something that would run in a browser, yes, that was important. But Java went on to run back-end server and enterprise systems, and there it really doesn't matter because people engineer for specific hardware.

      Yes, there are exceptions. There's still some "run anywhere" exploited on the desktop - e.g., Crashplan's desktop GUI. But most companies who are doing Java at any scale are doing it on specific hardware - i.e., their

      • Re: (Score:2, Informative)

        by Anonymous Coward

        But Java went on to run back-end server and enterprise systems, and there it really doesn't matter because people engineer for specific hardware.

        Actually, that's precisely where I see the "write once run anywhere" in action. I have been developing server-side code for about a decade, and I have always done my development and testing on Windows, but deployed to either Linux or Solaris, without any platform problems whatsoever.

        • I have been developing server-side code for about a decade, and I have always done my development and testing on Windows, but deployed to either Linux or Solaris, without any platform problems whatsoever.

          I find that a little scary.

          But I'm curious. Do you do that because as a developer you find Windows more productive for you?

          • Why do you find it scary? It's rather common in my experience that dev teams have different development platforms from the target runtime.
          • Don't find it scary, this is pretty much what every Java dev working on server side/web app code does. I have also been doing it for years.

            The problem here is perception of Java, Java as desktop app is to be blunt problematic and idiot devs out there who don't know what they are doing. Java on the server is an absolute dream.

            Windows isn't any more productive then say Linux or OSX its just convenient because most people use stuff like Outlook/Project/Visio etc.
          • by ggeens (53767)

            Do you do that because as a developer you find Windows more productive for you?

            In my experience, IDEs run roughly the same on Windows as on Linux. Not a lot of difference here.

            The reasons for developing on Windows are mainly:

            • Giving each developer a PC/laptop is much cheaper than giving them a Sparc workstation.
            • Company email/documents are based on MS office software. If you develop on Windows, you only need a single machine.
            • For a web application, you still need to test on IE from time to time.
        • by rubycodez (864176)
          not my experience at all, seen some companies have major data center deployment train wrecks of j2ee apps because of windows development environment completely different from mainframe or big Unix iron. From directory structure and file naming, to permissions and ownership, to date/time....the list goes on and on. Developers need to understand and work on the target platforms, and any java developer for "big iron" that can only function on a windows box is fit only to be cut up for chum.
      • by PCM2 (4486)

        Yes, there are exceptions. There's still some "run anywhere" exploited on the desktop - e.g., Crashplan's desktop GUI. But most companies who are doing Java at any scale are doing it on specific hardware - i.e., their backend processing system runs on x86, SPARC, POWER, or whatever and so who cares if they could pick up the Java code and move it? They're never going to.

        All the companies who bought Itanium beg to differ.

        • by rubycodez (864176)
          a lot of companies who bought Sparc also are begging. And Alpha, for that matter, some major financial and municipal operations still on that platform.
    • We used to joke "write once run away".

  • Maybe it's just me. But especially when the first lines of TFA are "after a rocky start ...". I expected ..."Steve Oracle, the lead singer and charismatic head of the Ecosystem riffed on a delicate C-sharp rising inflection to bring the crowd to it's knees with the country&western ballads that we've all come to know and love"

    By all means, mod me off-topic, but it was worth it.

  • Oracle has been hostile to open systems on every front. Oracle has been indifferent to the concerns and contributions of legions of developers, and no meaningful effort was made to avoid the trauma that has ensued with the acquisition of Sun. Oracle clearly does not give a damn.

    I've used most of the common tools of the trade that have appeared during the last 20 years. Java was among those at least 4 occasions that I recall. In each of those cases Java was one of several choices available to me, and i

    • by jonwil (467024)

      I will also not use Java for any project where I have the choice to do so and will continue to boycott Java as long as Oracle continues with its lawsuits against Android and Google.

  • Right. So we should all believe that Oracle now wants a world of good for us.

    Meanwhile the legal rampage against free and open source software continues. The war against Android - once the pride of Sun's success with Java - is raging.

    Oh, and don't even get me started on the crapware Ask-Toolbar they started pushing with the Java update/installer, with the "Yes put crapware on my system" option pre-selected for me...

    Yes, Oracle is certainly doing a lot of things for Java. Like killing it ... and pissin
  • IMHO, the involvement of Oracle would be enough to make me avoid Java even if I liked the language. Developing applications is stressful enough without having to worry about what Larry Ellison might do.
    And I don't like the language either. The nature of its widespread use only strengthens my feeling it is the 'new' BASIC, a dead-end educational toy that is used far beyond its capacities. Worse, this has gone on long enough for its oversimplified world view to affect what often masquerades as "design". Stitc

    • The nature of its widespread use only strengthens my feeling it is the 'new' BASIC, a dead-end educational toy that is used far beyond its capacities.

      So because it's widely used, it must therefore be flawed?

      No, Java is not fast. Java is a programming language. Virualized RISC machines can be fast within their own arenas and a lot of good work has gone into JIT compilers and the machines running underneath "Java".

      When people say Java is fast, they mean they can write applications in it that will perform similar to ones written in a platform targeted language (an important measure for choosing a programming language for a project, where trade-offs against $$$ are determining factors). Whether the underlying reason for this speed is because the JVM is really clever, or runs on really clever machines, is not important in this context.

      The claim does nothing but reveal your lack of knowledge and perspective.

      Oh, someone certainly needs p

To err is human -- to blame it on a computer is even more so.

Working...