Microsoft Relents On Metro-Only Visual Studio Express 228
snydeq writes "After hearing objections from developers, Microsoft will offer a version of its Visual Studio Express 2012 package for desktop application development after all. The company had previously announced that Express 2012 editions, which are free, platform-specific versions of the Visual Studio 2012 IDE, would be limited to Windows 8 Metro-style development as well as development for the Windows Azure cloud platform, Windows Phone, and Web applications. 'We heard from our community that developers want to have for Windows desktop development the same great experience and access to the latest Visual Studio 2012 features at the Express level. ... And it will enable developers working on open source applications to target existing and previous versions of Windows.'"
Well, it's a beginning (Score:5, Insightful)
Good start.
Now, if only they'd relent on the Start button, Start menu, and letting users opt-out of Metro altogether...
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Re:Well, it's a beginning (Score:5, Insightful)
The problem isn't the lack of start menu so much as the fact that to access the "super bar" you have to go to the full-screen Metro interface. It is a jarring experience, and funny on a multi-screen setup where one of your monitors just becomes this giant, monotone search field. It is not at all conducive to the rest of the experience *on a desktop* (I'm sure if fits fine on a tablet).
Re:Well, it's a beginning (Score:5, Interesting)
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This will bring up the desktop, but it won't solve the full screen problem when starting new applications. anyway, why should users have to kludge the kludge to unkludge the kludge on a $200 piece of software?
Re:Well, it's a beginning (Score:4, Informative)
I mean the 'start menu' taking the full screen whenever it's accessed, instead of a small rectangle in the corner of the still-visible desktop.
Comment removed (Score:5, Interesting)
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Because other than feeling like my desktop monitor ought to have a slider keyboard like a giant cell phone
I don't want my monitors to have any touch capability. Why? It's freaking useless. I have a bunch of large monitors on swing arms and stands in front of me, but they are not within arms reach. Much less set up to ergonomically use a touchscreen.
What would be really cool and useful is a wide (15"-30") touchscreen interface that either replaced my keyboard and mouse, or was at an angle right behind them.
You could use that with an operating system for so many useful things. Why have a start menu, or even
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My computer that I built to run Windows XP is more than capable of running Windows 8, you insensitive clod! I'm not about to go out and buy a new computer to replace my six-core, 8GB memory system to get a Windows license.
I have seen some people offering to sell me Windows 7 OEM licenses for $99, but I don't know how legit that is.
I'd like to be able to multiboot Win7 to play some of these newfangled PC games.
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Cheapest (and easiest) way to get win7 in North America (and probably Europe, too, but it doesn't work in Asia): Make friends with a university student who doesn't want the $15 copy that Microsoft makes available to students at accredited universities (but not in Asia). $15 for the full Ultimate retail version, and if the school doesn't actually have DVDs on site Microsoft will email out a license code and a download link to a valid .edu address (and non .edu with some kicking, screaming, and a note from y
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The super bar is what they are calling the "system tray" no? It is there in the "desktop app" it is just the start button that sends you back to metro. I think metro should have been an optional skin or even better a "space" like it is in Mac for an app store. Multiple desktop support should come with any modern OS IMHO.
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Metro is supposed to be more power efficient than win 7. Apps need to be made so that they can be hibernated really quickly since whenever the system is under memory pressure it will start dropping apps that are in the background. They claim crazy fast "rehydrating" something like 200ms (I wonder if they tried real programs not the phone->computer demo apps that ship with the beta but something "real" like VS or photoshop sized). Anyways since the system hiberates things and everything is supposed to use
Re:Well, it's a beginning (Score:5, Insightful)
>>>people largely launch apps from the super bar
The what? (looks round). I don't see that on my Win7 desktop.
And yeah I still use the start button since it gives me a nice list of all my programs in one quick spot.
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so people you know prefer to waste time making extra clicks? Interesting definition of 'smart'.
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More likely they (at least I do) want the taskbar reserved for running tasks, and each window to have it's own entry clearly separated from the others. Here I deviate, and leave grouping set to be "on if it's crowded".
Launching tasks is not done (in my case) nearly as often as switching between running tasks, so those few extra clicks at the start save me trouble during runtime.
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Everyone I know disables that shit as soon as they figure out how (or that they even can). "Everyone I know" includes far more than just smart people.
Really? I'm surprised to hear that. The task bar is actually my favorite UI feature on Windows 7. I have about 3/4 of my task bar pinned with the applications I use on a mostly daily basis. I pin the lesser used apps to my start menu. I am usually running quite a few apps at once, so it's nice knowing exactly where it will be on my taskbar when I need to switch to it. I can get the mouse in the general area of the icon before I even need to look at them. Before the Win7 task bar, I was an ALT+TAB guy. This
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Add in Windows Key + Number to start apps. IE, My second icon is for Windows Explorer, I can hit "Windows + 2" and it switches to it. Holding WinKey and hitting '2' repeatedly will cycle through all that applications windows.
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Unpin everything form the "superbar" - hey look, it's a classic taskbar.
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Yea, if you right click it and go to the options, you can disable the grouping. Once that's done, and the pinned applications unpinned, it behaves very much like the windows XP start bar, except you can search from it.
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it gives me a nice list of all my programs in one quick spot.
I prefer the apps list in Windows 8 as a list of all programs in one quick spot. It's alphebetized and doesn't include nonsense like uninstall wizards and docs like the start menu does. And it shows all the icons at once so I don't have to read a series of folder names like with the Start Menu.
Re:Well, it's a beginning (Score:4, Informative)
I prefer the apps list in Windows 8 as a list of all programs in one quick spot. It's alphebetized and doesn't include nonsense like uninstall wizards and docs like the start menu does. And it shows all the icons at once so I don't have to read a series of folder names like with the Start Menu.
Well you must not use very many programs. Their ridiculous flat organization method quickly falls apart and looks like crap. Just take a look here [hothardware.com] (images 3-5 on that page pretty clearly demonstrate). So yeah, you enjoy that needle in a haystack...
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Re:Well, it's a beginning (Score:5, Insightful)
Toms Hardware knows exactly what they are doing, because their experience precisely matches mine, and I've been a Windows developer since 3.1, so I think by now I've learned how to use the operating system.
There is no way to make Metro usable for a power user. If you find it better than the current UI in Windows 7, then I'm sorry, but you're just not a power user. Yes, you heard me right, you're just not. You're not like me, the kind of person that runs five virtual machines at once, with ten RDP sessions open, Visual Studio in the background, and fifty tabs across three browsers. You're just a consumer -- a casual user.
The first thing I did was install the Remote Server Admin Tools for Windows Server 8, so I can see what new admin features there. The problem is that the icons are mostly the same, and the dumbass fixed-size tile design doesn't provide enough room for the text. The result looks like an endless array of tiles that say things like:
[ICON] Active Director...
[ICON] Active Director...
[ICON] Active Director...
[ICON] Active Director...
Guess which one was actually "Active Directory Sites and Services"! It's idiotic beyond belief, isn't it?
And don't you dare tell me about the "search" keyboard shortcuts, which can only possibly help users that have memorized the precise spelling of the distinguishing part of the text of each and every shortcut in the Start Menu. Tell me, right now, quickly and from memory, what keyword would you use to find the shortcut in the start menu for the Active Directory integrated Certificate Authority configuration admin console . Hint: It doesn't contain "Active", "Directory", "Certificate", or "Authority". Looking for "Acrobat Reader" by typing "Acro" in the search box? Bzzt! It's now called "Adobe Reader". Try again.
You paid Microsoft shills can go fuck off. I like Windows, I do. I run it on my laptop, I install it on servers for a living, and I write software for it. Despite this, it's obvious to me that Metro is an objectively, demonstrably bad user interface for a PC. If you disagree, post with a user account that's been around for more than a week, and try to use, you know... facts, like the screenshots in the Toms Hardware article.
Re:Well, it's a beginning (Score:5, Insightful)
Those of us that have more than three or four pieces of software installed do. Scrolling a huge fullscreen pile of tiles is a lot more time consuming than scrolling through a well organized start menu or using a quicklaunch link. The fact I can start a new application from it without losing sight of my desktop is something I"ve come to expect from computer use over the last FIFTEEN years..
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I don't know why turkeyfeathers was modded down.. he's right. the hierarchy is useful, and it can be easily sorted by alpha if necessary.. the current full screen tiled mess isn't, and having to scroll it horizontally just makes things worse. Starting an application should not be a disruptive 'experience.' It negatively affects workflow by unnecessarily stopping information flow to the user from already open windows.
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>>>To start Word, Windows Key, w, o, r, d, enter.
That requires effort (lifting my hand and typing). Easier to move my mouse a millimeter and click Start, MS Word, Open Doc, click desired file, and start reading. ;-)
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the mouse is slower, however.
Also, you can pin a program to the taskbar and hit WinKey + Number.
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To start Word, Windows Key, w, o, r, d, enter.
Doing this will still open word in Windows 8
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I find clicking twice faster than typing 'word' and hoping the heuristics guess right.. I've found that sometimes it doesn't. It depends on what was installed on the machine. Also, often used applications go in the quicklaunch, and that is faster than the start menu. A stock start menu is clunky, yes, but it works A LOT better than full screens of tiles to scroll through, and if a minute is taken to organize it, there's no contest.
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The point is, there's no reason to block someone's view of his work area unless it's absolutely necessary. At the very least, it's visually disruptive, and in my case, I can load things without taking my central vision off what's in front of me. I've grown used to this ability, and losing it for the sake of a poorly grafted interface meant for input constrained devices is a net loss.
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I don't consider myself especially dextrous, physically, but I really don't think a start menu is difficult to navigate.. Search, is A LOT slower and more disruptive to work flow when you already know where something is. The metro menu is even slower than both! There's no reason why microsoft can't offer both a traditional windows desktop and this metro thing with a control panel switch.
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What, are you one of those people who has their desktop covered with shortcut icons?
I use the start button constantly. They finally got it perfect in Windows 7. Best thing on there.
WTF is super bar? (I thought Wendy's got rid of that right after Dave died?)
Do you mean the Quick Launch Bar? (The icons next to the start button) If you don't, then please explain...
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And no, my desktop is not covered icons. I use about 10 programs regularly (Photoshop, Indesign, Visual Studio, Matlab, TexWorks, Word, Excel, Powerpoint, Opera) and they are all pinned to my task bar. Anything else I want to use I just launch from the search box.
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http://www.neowin.net/news/main/09/01/15/windows-7-superbar-overview [neowin.net]
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>>>What, are you one of those people who has their desktop covered with shortcut icons?
First thing I do is erase all that junk from my desktop and tab bar. The cleaner the appearance, the better it looks. (Plus I don't have to push my windows around trying to find hidden icons underneath them.)
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Dozens of times per day, yes. The super bar is shiny and pretty but it's cumbersome to use. The hands down most effective layout they've come out with yet is the quick-launch bar, the taskbar (without fucking window grouping), and the start menu.
I don't want the click area to launch a program to be the same as the one to switch to open instances of that window. It's a huge pain in the ass and extra clicks if I want another window of the same type open, which is extremely common for me.
I don't want mu
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I especially want to be able to have a more or less complete list of installed programs in a hierarchical layout that's accessible from one place .
This would be the apps list [afterdawn.fi]. It's quickly accessible, contains all apps in alphabetical order, and shows all the icons at once instead of being buried in folders. I like it much better for accessing all my programs than the "All Programs" list in the start menu.
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I'm aware of all of the above. And yet, the default is to be less useful than prior versions of Windows. It amazes me that Microsoft's answer to making an OS more usable is to remove ways to use it. I expect within three versions both Windows and Gnome will be nothing but a Facebook button in the middle of the screen.
As for buried in folders? I prefer the term organized. You know, sorted into sub-folders according to function as opposed to dumped in a huge single directory. I don't have a problem ins
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I have a hundred or more installed programs. Yes I use the start menu. I don't actually use the mouse to get there though. Windows key and start typing. Usually in 5 or less characters the list is down to 2-3 and I arrow over to the right one. I'm not sure how you do it but for changing settings it is great because you don't have to navigate around the control panel. Just type a few characters (eg. win -> def for defrag) and you are right to what you want.
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I didn't have a good experience with the beta so only played around with it for about 20 min on a VM. Didn't notice the search. Did notice the pain of navigating metro with a mouse. Might be the beta but it was click and drag, click and drag. Click. Clicky clicky click. It seemed all the examples were content consumption based apps very little for the "get to the keyboard and start typing" sorts. Of course their was the VS demo but that was just type to make yet another app that requires you to go back to m
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Personally, I use the Start button and the Start Menu all the time. And I kind of like having it.
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Re:Well, it's a beginning (Score:4, Informative)
So those people who intentionally put off migrating forward for over a decade are going to be surprised that things aren't exactly the same as they were before. Cry me a river.
Half a decade. Windows Vista came out in January 2007.
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So those people who intentionally put off migrating forward for over a decade are going to be surprised that things aren't exactly the same as they were before. Cry me a river.
Half a decade. Windows Vista came out in January 2007.
And it was not for a few years after that that Vista became somewhat useable.
Re:Well, it's a beginning (Score:5, Insightful)
And it was not for a few years after that that Vista became somewhat useable.
AKA the release of Windows 7.
Skip 8, you know how it is with Microsoft. Whatever comes out after 8 will rock, but 8 itself will be a pile of shit.
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newer is not always better. in fact, financial desperation in these times is driving needless change in products in areas that don't need change, often to their detriment.
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Yes, that exactly.
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There is no good reason to think they're a representative sample.
There's no good reason to think Microsoft doesn't employ a competent statistician who makes sure the sample is representative.
badmouthing from the tech community ensured that Vista was pretty much DOA
The tech community has been badmouthing Microsoft products constantly since the 90s, and that hasn't made any dent in their marketshare. Vista was DOA because it was a bad product. You're really overstating your influence.
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Sorry, but not enough people joined the appropriate Facebook group. I think it's because people didn't invite enough of their friends.
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Yes. relenting to a bunch of bastards who don't want to buy the full version sure is a start.
Most teenagers don't have $500 to blow on visual studio.
Now if we can just get rid of you clowns who hate change.
Fallacy.
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maybe when they're 18+ and going to university.. when they're still in highschool, they're either using free stuff or pirating..
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well whatever, most kids are just going find whatever will run on their hardware.. if they run windows, they'll grab vs express.. if express won't do what they want, they'll torrent.. or they might try win32-gcc with another ide..
Re:Well, it's a beginning (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes. relenting to a bunch of bastards who don't want to buy the full version sure is a start.
Because open-source developers who don't make any money from their software were going be to effectively blocked from supporting their existing apps on windows 8?
With windows 7, you got the compiler in the SDK, so you could at least compile your own apps written in another IDE. Windows 8 doesn't have that any more, the only compiler and standard header libraries are part of Visual Studio 2012; so unless the non-profit making open source dev wanted to cough up $500 for the full version of VS2012 pro out of their own pocket (that included a bunch of crap they didn't need), they couldn't support windows 8.
Never mind that VS 2012 has a much faster compiler than the older version, microsoft tend to tweak APIs and such - and when they release a new OS, only the new VS gets it integrated.
And how were new students going to learn to code for windows? Most people start with CLI coding, not fully blown graphical UI versions, ala metro.
Plenty of people need Visual Studio Express to write code for windows, because it is so tightly integrated and designed to go together. Nerfing the express version wouldn't force developers to write more metro apps - it would just kill off existing apps for Windows 7 from 8, cut down on new people learning to write software for windows, and kill off future open source apps on windows.
I'm amazed they thought that making the free compiler for windows metro-only was a good idea in the first place. At least they've overturned what would have been a big self-inflicted foot wound.
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I'm amazed they thought that making the free compiler for windows metro-only was a good idea in the first place. At least they've overturned what would have been a big self-inflicted foot wound.
Had they gone ahead with the metro-only thing, I would have predicted not just a foot wound, but a slow death from sepsis.
If you block the next generation of starving uni students from developing on your platform, they will never grow up to become the kind of developers that can fork over $500 for a Visual Studio license without having to go without food for a month. No developers means no market for your platform, and that would have been the end of Microsoft. Not immediately, sure but it would be the begi
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Yes. relenting to a bunch of bastards who don't want to buy the full version sure is a start.
Well, competitors offer their products for free - see Xcode and Qt Creator. It makes sense that VS has to have a reasonably full-featured free version to compete. That's why Express was created in the first place.
I love the marketing speak (Score:5, Insightful)
This is a great marketing tactic here:
And it will enable developers working on open source applications to target existing and previous versions of Windows.
Translation: It will not forbid developers working on open source applications to target existing and previous versions of Windows.
developers want to have for Windows desktop development the same great experience and access to the latest Visual Studio 2012 features
Translation: developers want to have what they already had.
Re:I love the marketing speak (Score:5, Insightful)
developers want to have for Windows desktop development the same great experience and access to the latest Visual Studio 2012 features
I translate it a bit differently: Despite our efforts to force Metro down everyone's throats, developers have told in no uncertain terms that they would prefer to continue developing for a traditional windows interface.
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Translation: It will not forbid developers working on open source applications to target existing and previous versions of Windows.
That doesn't make sense. Making or not making VS Express available does not "forbid" anyone to do anything, since VS is not the only tool that can produce Windows apps. Qt Creator does just that, and comes bundled with MinGW - completely for free. It's open source itself, too.
Translation: developers want to have what they already had.
Again, not really. Developers already had VS 2010, and they continued to have it - it was not being taken away. The problem was that all the new stuff in VS 2012 was being withheld from those who used the free versions unless they were
Express = Free? (Score:2)
How did "Express" come to mean "free" in the software world, anyway?
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Dunno, but it keeps managers from only allowing the "free" version I suppose, and it does not have any relation to the word "cheap" and therefore "sub-par". Although I guess it does by now, at least for software.
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It dates from the late nineties when software vendors would offer reduced-feature versions of their software subtitled "Lite" or "Light" for zero or a considerably discounted cost compared to the full version. One of the most famous of which was Eudora Light, which was free; and contrasted with Eudora Pro, which cost about $40.
When it came time to offer free pack-in versions of popular Microsoft programs with Windows 98, Microsoft marketing decided that they didn't like the connotations of being feature-sta
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Thanks for the explanation. I'm well-aware of the old "lite" versions, I just never understood why "express" was seen as a better/clearer name since the software is generally not any faster than the full version. I suppose the process of obtaining the software (no credit card or manager's approval needed) is faster ;-) I guess the moral is that better != clearer in the marketing world.
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Because marketing folks realized that it sounds better "Crippled", "Limited", or "Demo", which would more accurately describe the relationship of the zero-cost version to the full-price version that the zero-cost version exists to help support the market for by building a large base of users familiar with its general structure who will be inclined to purchase the full-price version when their needs exceed the limits of the zero-cost version
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Because certain individuals seem to think software isn't "free" unless the source is available and abides by the GPL or compatible licenses. It is free. It's just not open source free.
Free publicity! (Score:2, Insightful)
Microsoft could never buy the kind of publicity in the developer community that this kind of announce/recind behaviour will get them for free.
Man, they're good.
Well what do you know (Score:5, Informative)
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I wouldn't say that Delphi is "thriving" - they're nowhere near as big as they were a decade ago - .NET stole most of their lunch. But there was a lot of code written in Delphi back in the day when it was actually the best tool for the job which still runs today, so of course supporting it makes sense - and adding new features while they're at it never hurts.
Wise decision (Score:2)
Good, now just (Score:3)
Good, now just fix the menus then you're off to a good start.
Next, make choosing Metro or Explorer (with Aero glass or classic) for the UI an option then Windows 8 should be even better than Windows 7. Otherwise, it will be at least as despised as the epic fail known as Vista.
Is anyone surprised? (Score:2)
I called this when they first announced Metro only applications for Express editions.
However, getting applications compiled with Visual Studio to run in XP is still presently a lost cause. The only way you will be doing development compatible with XP is if you stick to VS2010. I hope they relent on this as well. I may not want to support XP, but it is still on a moderate chunk of machines.
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They already said it will be exposed as an option, so that's already covered.
Re:It's a free tool! (Score:5, Insightful)
This reads like astroturf. People are actually complaining because the free new version is less capable than the old free versions to date.
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Let's see if I've got this straight: "You gave me A, B, and C for free yesterday, and now you're only giving me an improved A and B for free? I deserve an improved C, too! You're a miserable, horrible entity for denying me the new and improved C!"
This reads like astroturf. People are actually complaining because the free new version is less capable than the old free versions to date.
So you've rationalized that all the complaining is somehow legitimate, and even insulted me as an "astroturfer" in the process. What makes you so damn deserving that they should give it away to you at all? It's this arrogant sense of entitlement that is so ama
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Let's see if I've got this straight: "You gave me A, B, and C for free yesterday, and now you're only giving me an improved A and B for free?
What would really happen if Microsoft crippled future versions of Visual Studio Express is that a market would be created for low or no cost alternatives. That would probably be a good thing but it would be annoying for many people to convert. It probably wouldn't be too hard to port KDevelop [kdevelop.org] to Windows, for example.
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Microsoft make their money from Windows (and Office). Developing apps for Windows adds value to Microsoft.
That's why they tried to limit Express to their new toytown touchscreen iWindows mess, to get apps developed for it that might tempt OEMs, businesses and end users to actually want it.
Looks like it's fool me once, shame on Microsoft, fool me seven or more times, shame on me though. We're not falling for that one again.
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I'm explaining why.. I'm justifying nothing.
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Let's see if I've got this straight: "You gave me A, B, and C for free yesterday, and now you're only giving me an improved A and B for free? I deserve an improved C, too! You're a miserable, horrible entity for denying me the new and improved C!"
That's reasonable thinking when competitors all offer their own analogs - A1/B1/C1 and A2/B2/C2 - for free.
(note how neither Xcode nor Qt Creator require you to write apps for Cocoa and Qt, respectively)
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not at all. I don't mind someone praising microsoft. if they've done something right, I'll agree. if not, I won't. discussion follows.
His opinion about visual studio is tangential to the topic, which is what comes with the express edition. The way he expresses his opinion read to me like astroturf marketing...the emphasis on 'like'. I don't know if it is or not.
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It depends on your definition of "perfectly". For example, the C++ compiler in VS 2012 was updated to be better conforming with C++11 - while no major new features were added, VS 2010 predated the final version of the standard, and got some things outdated as a result; for example, nested lambdas. VS 2012 fixes a lot of those.
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>>>and yet people complain about its limitations.
If the MS software is free then you really have no right to complain.
It reminds me of when Fantasy & Science Magazine gave-away a free "digest" edition on amazon. As a digest, rather than get all ~15 stories/articles for free, you got 1 free story and 5-6 articles/reviews. A sampler basically. BUT people still complained about it:
- "I only got one story and some other junk."
Or "You have to pay $2 to get the full thing! No way."
Or "Amazon say
Re:It's a free tool! (Score:5, Insightful)
Okay, wanking about whether or not people have entitlement issues is missing the core of the situation.
There are developers that will be new to .NET development, and there will be developers that have already been developing desktop applications against the Express versions of the software. If we have learned nothing from the gaming console or phone platform wars, it is that you want to encourage application development. Any barrier to entry or project sustainability, even one that is merely perceived, will cause some number of people to pick a different platform to learn and grow on, and the .NET ecosystem will shrink. There are plenty of other languages and IDEs to turn to that are free, easy, and reliably maintained without having to worry about version-ed crippleware.
I am a full-time .NET developer. I'm an MSDN subscriber and so am utterly independent of the Express versions. Yet I feel very strongly that incidents like this hurt me and hurt .NET development on the whole. As a developer community we're already hamstrung by the lackluster (or totally absent, depending on how you look at it) cross-platform availability for the .NET framework and culture that leans more corporate/enterprise. The least we can do is provide a basic, sustainable development tools for learners and free/open projects.
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If we have learned nothing from the gaming console or phone platform wars, it is that you want to encourage application development.
The irony is that Microsoft was one of the first to learn that lesson, ages ago - remember the whole "developers, developers, developers!" thing?
IMO, it's the setback from those past principles - of making development for Windows as easy and convenient as possible - that caused such a backlash here.
I am a full-time .NET developer. I'm an MSDN subscriber and so am utterly independent of the Express versions. Yet I feel very strongly that incidents like this hurt me and hurt .NET development on the whole. As a developer community we're already hamstrung by the lackluster (or totally absent, depending on how you look at it) cross-platform availability for the .NET framework and culture that leans more corporate/enterprise. The least we can do is provide a basic, sustainable development tools for learners and free/open projects.
As a VS developer, I can't help but agree with this.
As a side note, though. One good thing about this whole Metro deal is that its developer story includes a strong angle of catering to new learners, hobby projec
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I think they were complaining because when a new Express version goes RTM, old Express versions are discontinued, and the new Express versions were announced to lack key features in the old Express versions, meaning that free access to features that are currently available in free versions of VS would no longer exist.
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Yup. Who were they to whine that suddenly the express version was extremely limited in how the software made with it could be distributed!
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You've never seen Google bashing on here. Seriously? What do we also love Sony?
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Either way those that want a desktop / start menu combo will either tweak windows to there needs or someone will release some software to get around it.
The software is already there [lee-soft.com].
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Are you being serious? Pretty much everything you've said is wrong except for .NET being windows specific. Visual Studio isn't .NET.
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what have their ide associated with fatty foods? or with a childs play area? i don't get how thats good for them :D