Apple Angers Mac Users With Silent Shutdown of Java 7 451
An anonymous reader writes in with news of the continuing saga of Java patches and exploits. "If you're a Mac user who suddenly can't access websites or run applications that rely on Java, you're not alone. For the second time in a month, Apple has silently blocked the latest version of Java 7 from running on OS X 10.6 Snow Leopard or higher via its XProtect anti-malware tool. Apple hasn't issued any official statements advising users of the change or its reasons, but it's a safe bet that the company has deemed Oracle's most recent update to Java insecure. That's why the company stealthily disabled Java on Macs back on Jan. 10, the same day a Java vulnerability was being exploited in the wild."
Run Linux (Score:5, Funny)
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Unfortunately not entirely true. Mozilla has been taking it upon themselves to decide which java plugins you can and can't use. Obviously its just the plugin and nothing FF or Seamonkey does affects local java code from using whatever JRE I happen to have installed. Still I think its an over-reach.
Fortuitously both are open source and it would be pretty trivial to disable that version check and do my own build if I needed to do so; but I would still say I am not pleased. Really they should just offer a
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It should not be the case but lets face reality here there thousands of Java applications out there that only work correctly on specific platform releases. If you depend on these and your main system is a Mac you might be really screwed by this.
Here let me help summarize
It should not be the case but lets face reality here there thousands of Java applications out there that only work correctly on specific platform releases. If you depend on these ... you might be really screwed....
Re:Run Linux (Score:5, Informative)
Please don't spread misinformation and FUD about Mozilla's blocklisting when it really is done properly.
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Translation: Firefox provides secure behavior by default; if you want to do insecure stuff with plugins, you can, but you have to explicitly tell it so in the configuration settings.
Why is this a problem?
Re:Run Linux (Score:4, Funny)
10/10. This is how proper trolling is done.
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10/10. This is how proper trolling is done.
If you ran Linux you would have no idea what it's like to experience the mysterious wonders of the malware world. Do you even know what it feels like to have a fuckin' sweeeet .dll hack invade your inner workings? I'll bet not. Like gettin' head from a porn star while smokin' blunts these days...they're so damn smooth, especially the Chinese. You hardly feel it.
A fast personal computer is a terrible thing to waste. - Anonymous Botnet Operator
(And THAT is how a proper troll response is done.)
Re:Run Linux (Score:5, Insightful)
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Or Windows. This is the result of a decision made by Apple Corp. to make this happen.
This came just as several hundred school teachers in my district were sitting down to enter grades into their Infinite Campus gradebooks at the end of the marking period. Apple's decision is playing havoc with their ability to use this Java-based application on their Apple MacBook Pros.
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Just not 12.10.
PS what is it with all you idiots talking about that one? It's been how long since we've all found out the release was a bit shite?
Yet still you come along with a story about how you have just changed over and it got all wrong.
Either
a) old news, you've whined time and time again about it. You've got your fix now shut the fuck up or we'll bring up apple failures from bloody years ago and see how you like it
b) made up, because you know it's both believable (because of the history of 12.10) and never going to be verified
c) redundant, you used to have this problem then either Ubuntu fixed it a couple of weeks later, but you still want mileage out of it, or you moved to some other distro. But still want more mileage out of it.
I'm figuring (b) myself.
No, I actually did this and that is a real story. If i'ts any consolation the upgrade from 11.04 to 12.04 also blew up in my face although not as badly as the upgrade to 12.10. If I was lying I would have posted AC... like you.
Old News (Score:5, Informative)
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Re:Old News (Score:5, Interesting)
If there are security vulnerabilities discovered in update 13 then it will likely be blocked as well.
So why don't they block older versions of their operating systems when they have vulnerabilities? That one in iOS where you could root the device from a website was pretty severe, seems if their goal is protecting the user from malicious software they probably should have blocked that from the app store and other services until the users updated.
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Well for one thing, blocking an entire operating system would prevent you from downloading a replacement operating system.
Obviously you wouldn't block the OS update mechanism, simple.
Re:Old News (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Old News (Score:5, Informative)
I am not stupid and know how to disable it for web browsing, but many apps use older java versions.
First, I'm not sure why Slashdot chose to run this article as opposed to any of dozens of others that actually explain the situation better, not that it matters because nobody reads them. Apple is not blocking Java applications. They are blocking only the plug-in. Further, from what I've read, they were not blocking Java 6, only insecure (well, more insecure) versions of Java 7 applets. Additionally, you can get around this with just about any Web browser besides Safari. Finally, at the moment, at least, the latest version of the plug-in is once again perfectly capable of running.
For competent reporting on this subject, see, among others, the MacRumors article about the most recent block [macrumors.com].
Oh no, I can't run Java applets?! (Score:5, Funny)
Without Java applets, my plan to time travel back to 1997 and surf the web is completely ruined!
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You could always e-mail copies of web sites to yourself and view them in Microsoft Outlook's HTML renderer which has almost non-existant CSS support.
And what about Mozilla? (Score:2)
Mozilla did the same thing with blocking Java on Firefox on January 10th.
Java 7 Update 13 is out already and works on Macs again anyway.
Wow... Apple can't catch a break... (Score:5, Insightful)
Wow... Apple can't catch a break... You know damn well people would be bitching if they hadn't done this... Apple Fails To Disable Java 7. Millions of Macs Vulnerable. News at 11.
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*Apple* fails to disable Java so Macs are vulnerable?
So Oracle is not responsible for Java making Macs vulnerable??? It's Apple's fault???
Huh???
That's exactly what happened when Apple decided to stop shipping a Java VM by default with OS X, instead falling back to the position that every other OS uses - that if you need it, you get it from Oracle. That didn't stop slashdot frothing about how Apple was "killing Java" and "taking it away from Mac users" when it was really the opposite - shipping and updating their own version meant that the Mac version was always behind the current release, especially with bug fixes. Leaving it to Oracle meant it was
Still not working on 10.6 (Score:4, Informative)
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Because... (Score:2)
You can't handle the truth!
OpenJDK Runtime Environment .. (Score:2)
Does this apply to the OpenJDK Runtime Environment [java.net]
Secure by default (Score:2)
Apple seems to have an attitude problem with Java (Score:2)
If you update your JDK using Software Update, it overwrites all previous versions and turns them into symbolic links to the current version. You then receive an unpleasant surprise when software which relies on a particular JDK breaks for no apparent reason.
The problem is not the changes themselves, but just unilaterally making these decisions and then not telling anyone. If I was working in an enterprise environment and this happened, I too wou
Apple killed flash, Java next? (Score:2)
Re:Good for them. (Score:5, Funny)
This is why I run GNU Hurd, the only truly free operating system, on my Lemote Yeeloong. My freedom is incredible. I can run ls and cat and EVERYTHING. I look forward to support for manpages in 2017.
Re:Good for them. (Score:5, Funny)
i love the Hurd logo - representing all 4 of it's users.
Re:Good for them. (Score:5, Funny)
The logo looks to me like someone tried, and failed miserably, to map out a token ring network.
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Hey, look on the bright side. At least people don't think you're a putz.
Maybe you don't have the latest MacBook with Mountain Lion. But you also don't wear pleather pants with the butt cut out.
Lemote Yeelong is an amazing device. (Score:3)
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Re:Good for them. (Score:5, Interesting)
Ehm, doesn't Firefox also block vulnerable versions of Java? I guess maybe they are fascist as well.
Re:Good for them. (Score:5, Interesting)
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your spelt "fascists" wrong...
Re:Good for them. (Score:5, Informative)
Two issues. Firstly Apple didn't just disable web applets. They disabled Java Web Start too, so whole corporations and government departments are suddently shut down. Secondly, they didn't provide any announcement, or a gui tool to re-enable at your own risk. It was just nuke everyone in silence.
Re:Good for them. (Score:5, Informative)
Yeah well, as someone tasked with fixing this for a government department, Apple hasn't told me how to do it. Yes, some hackers figured it out. Yes, I can google and get their knowledge. But Apple didn't give me any way to push the fix out. Nor did they give a gui tool so I can email the users with instructions. In short, we're a bit screwed right now. We'll get over it sure, but in the mean time, tons of legal centres are out of action. is this good enough behavior? Surely not! Please don't defend this crap.
Re:Good for them. (Score:5, Insightful)
Apple hasn't told me how to do it. Yes, some hackers figured it out.
Did you call Apple Enterprise support? Does your organization have the proper agreements in place with Apple, for them to support use of OS X by a business (instead of ordinary consumer use) ?
Did you voice the concerns with your Apple rep?
Re: Good for them. (Score:4, Insightful)
It sounds like his users require Java for some crucial work-related application. So, if the choice was expose users to possibility of an exploit, or not get any work done, enabling a vulnerable Java is probably the less costly measure to take.
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So why didn't the fools at Apple allow disabling for applets, but enabling for Java web start and regular Java apps? If we are exposed unnecessarily to exploits, it is now Apple's fault.
Re: Good for them. (Score:5, Informative)
The "fools at Apple" make the security system a standard XML file which is editable by admins. You can do anything you want with it.
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Java != Javascript
Re:Good for them. (Score:5, Insightful)
Its really easy for some nerd to say your a fool for using Java, but when you have a business line application line Sungard Banner (which uses Oracle Forms which is Java based) with 30 years of prior use its not so simple to just move on - yes we may be foolish, but what can one do at this point?
Apple shuts off Java and they essentially killed off our front line application.
Really all this does is make us move more towards Windows and Linux desktops for anyone who has a business need for a computer.
Re:Good for them. (Score:5, Interesting)
I find it funny how yet another Windows8 story ran last week, and there were many suggestions that businesses should all switch to the Mac.
Re:Good for them. (Score:5, Insightful)
I have no problem with Apple disabling Java. I would like them to provide some notice and I would like them to provide a way to whitelist trusted applications. That doesn't seem unreasonable.
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Well they disabled it, and would only permit a version that wasn't even released - no documentation or anything.
I think us big customers could have been treated a bit nicer.
Anyhow yes I want it to still be enabled - our front desk machines can't browse anywhere they want ;).
Re:Good for them. (Score:4, Informative)
Firefox implemented 'click to play' for Java, Silverlight, and Flash. That just means that it only runs them is the user specifically requests it. There's a big difference between blocking outright and suggesting strongly not running it and then letting the user decide.
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Ehm, doesn't Firefox also block vulnerable versions of Java? I guess maybe they are fascist as well.
Yes. FF puts up a nice warning and then lets you click through it if you so desire.
That's fine. No problems. Shutting down Java without any user identifiable explanation is a dick move. Interesting it's just on 10.6. 10.7 seems to trundle along just fine.
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Re:Good for them. (Score:5, Informative)
a) it's old news ;)
b) both the Java 7 (from Oracle) and Java 6 (from Apple) updates that address this are already out . Is the new motto Recycling obselete news that matters
c) if you want to opt out from Xprotect, how to guides abound
d)it's the Safari plugin only - other browsers are not effected
e) Apple have pulled the trigger on Xprotect maybe 4 times in 3 years, its not like they are shotgunning
The vulnerabilities from Java 7 were hideously large, and Apple probably did the right thing for the 99 percent who don't know any better. Driveby root access isn't all that fun for the target.
The 1 percent who care, can disable Xprotect temporarily if they want to.
For anyone in between, they could always use another browser.
If you are using a Mac , you are not generally the IT equivalent of a Yukon Frontiersman
Re:Good for them. (Score:5, Funny)
No, you are the IT equivalent of the cast of Glee.
Re:Good for them. (Score:5, Insightful)
No, you are the IT equivalent of the cast of Glee.
Young, geeky, bullied by retards who hate them for liking something that the retards don't like? ;)
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No, you are the IT equivalent of the cast of Glee.
Young, geeky, bullied by retards who hate them for liking something that the retards don't like? ;)
Disproportionately gay?
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No, you are the IT equivalent of the cast of Glee.
You owe me a new keyboard, mate. *And* a cup of tea. I will not charge you for the damage to my nasal mucosa.
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Its old news now, but they disabled Java and only let you run a version that wasn't even out yet.
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well, on one hand i think big software companies really need to get their act together (java especially!) and fill in the wholes before releasing. a certain amount of unforseen patching is probably needed, but with something that's not used very often like Java (not used often = once a week or so at work) we run up against the very annoying problem of updating a boatload of things every time you run it.
given the fanatical dependence mac users have on their apple masters, if i were apple i'd want to disable
Re:I sure the EULA will tell me I cant do anything (Score:5, Informative)
You do realise you can disable this right?
https://discussions.apple.com/thread/4762386?start=0&tstart=0 [apple.com]
Quite amazing what a google search for 'disable XProtect' turns up..
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It's monitoring in the same sense that antivirus software is monitoring.
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Depends on how it works, if it sends a list of installed software to Apple to check it's bad, but if it downloads a list of plugin signatures to disable because they're outdated and insecure that's not any worse or different than the antivirus downloading virus signatures. I don't see the privacy implications of that, would you elaborate?
Re:I sure the EULA will tell me I cant do anything (Score:5, Informative)
Depends on how it works, if it sends a list of installed software to Apple to check it's bad, but if it downloads a list of plugin signatures to disable because they're outdated and insecure that's not any worse or different than the antivirus downloading virus signatures. I don't see the privacy implications of that, would you elaborate?
Apple has been using a blacklist that is updated daily to stop dangerous software from running. It is mostly used against trojans, but also to block Java running as a Safari plugin, which has some rather serious exploits (basically, an applet can replace the default Java security manager with its own, and from then on anything goes), _and_ it is known that these exploits are actually for sale.
So there are no privacy problems whatsoever, and while blocking Java applets might be annoying, the alternative would be highly dangerous. By the way, Oracle has released a new software version fixing about 50 security problems, which is not blocked.
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It doesn't bother me at all. You know why? Because I don't use Windows. You don't have to use it either. If you choose to do so, well, that's your choice. I have no objection to that, but I do get a little sick of people griping about the consequences of their own actions.
And that includes the "privacy issues".
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Re:I sure the EULA will tell me I cant do anything (Score:4, Informative)
again, If i run a 3rd party monitoring system, I allowed them into my system. If this is on by default, then I am not sure I am ok with this..
It's updating a blacklist because people have auto-update on, nothing more. You are not 'allowing them into your system'.
What if apple decides one day that they dont want YY running on macs anymore
That would obviously be pointless given the only thing going on here is updating a blacklist - which is editable by the user - when automatic update is on. So clearly if they were to do that for some reason then the information would be disseminated pretty damn quickly about the simple fix to avoid it.
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companies who sell electronic devices must have these types of things opt in rather than opt out
Opt-in security on mass-market devices generally equates to no security. I don't like Apple's walled garden approach, but I think secure-by-default is the right decision.
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it is apple breaking into MY PC
so if you have automatic updates on - in any operating system or application - that means your system is getting 'broken into'?
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If you ask this then maybe you shouldn't run Apple (or Microsoft for that matter) software.
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I'm pretty sure Microsoft would at least announce they are disabling Java before actually doing it.
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What browser do you run on OpenBSD, FreeBSD, Linux, or Hurd? If you said Firefox (the usual default browser in most distros)... guess what? Mozilla blocked Java too!
Re:Good (Score:5, Informative)
Java... free. VirtualBox... free. Oracle Linux... free. How can you say they're greedy?
On Windows, Java installs the Ask Toolbar (for now - other times it installs other shit) every time it updates to a new version unless the user realizes Oracle is a two bit hole in the wall company and unchecks the default boxes to opt out. That's greedy. To an even greater extent that's sleazy and just...trashy.
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...Oracle [...] unchecks the default boxes to opt out. That's greedy. To an even greater extent that's sleazy and just...trashy.
Thank you! It's amazing how many customers bring in their computers for a tuneup who have no idea how they got the Ask toolbar. Granted it is just as much the user's fault for not reading, but at the same time, the user puts a lot of trust in such a major-name product and shouldn't have to worry about having something slipped by them.
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I like how Adobe Reader comes with the very useful software "McAfee Security Scan Plus".
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what about that McAfee crapware that almost got installed with the java update, good thing I caught that checkbox. what about OpenSolaris (DESTROYED!), what about mysql (buggy unreliable garbage that EATS DATA), what about Java no longer being backwards compatible with 1.6 and cause busniesses major clusterfucks?
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You know, if you xor the file with the right key, you'll get a text demanding your soul and your first-born. :-)
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No, you have to read it backwards as well.
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Sorry, can't diss VirtualBox :)
Its USB support isn't free. Donno why, don't care, just find it to be a PITA.
Whats the one reason a linux guy wants to run virtual windows, besides games? Well, weirdo USB hardware like programming proprietary radio memories, or burning eproms in a USB eprom burner or whatever other USB peripheral madness you can imagine. I've got an old Windoze only USB film scanner. Not that I have much film left to scan.... Come on guys, make it easier?
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Actually, I would want it to run Microsoft Office (yeah, hate me). I have Windows on my hard drive, but I don't know what the Windows boot image is.
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Try buying a licence for it so you can use the USB pass through support in a commercial context. Nada.
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Since Apple is clearly not from this planet and Microsoft inhabits its own universe...
I suppose the Seven Circles of Hell can be considered another universe...
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Re:This Mac user not angered. (Score:4, Informative)
Re:I'm Pretty Sure They Just Needed An Excuse (Score:5, Informative)
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No. Apple do not provide Java any longer. Oracle is where you get Java for OSX from. Historically you got Java from Apple - and it was BIG on their list of priorities - it was a major part of the platform (WebObjects).
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Is worse than Hitler.
Goodwin was an optimist.
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if you mean in the realm of data processing automating, yeah Hitler didn't roll his own systems, he contracted IBM to do it for him.
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Given the recent problems are due problems in the class library, how do you conclude the language is at fault?
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If you write Java, to hell with you. Worst language on the planet.
C++11 is the best language on the planet. Well, at least a very good candidate.
Fast compiled language, great toolchain, expressive, classy, and you can write any type of programs.
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