How a Programmer Gets By On $16K/Yr: He Moves to Malaysia 523
An anonymous reader writes "If you can make $10 and hour doing remote work, you can afford to live in Malysia. Make it $15 or $20, you can work 30 hours a week. Real money? Make it ten. This article talks about how John Hunter did it." Malaysia's not the only destination for self-motivated ex-pat programmers, of course. If you've considered doing this kind of sabbatical, or actually have, please explain in the comments the from-where-to-where details and reasons.
30 hours per week? (Score:5, Funny)
Who the hell works more than 30 hours per week anyway?
Re:30 hours per week? (Score:5, Funny)
*Rich guy laugh*
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"Smart people can't be educated. They can learn."
The only way this makes sense is if you're using some twisted cynical definition of smart, educate, and learn.
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Re:30 hours per week? (Score:5, Insightful)
That's those who hope to make it rich. Those who actually are rich AND smart delegate and "work" by browsing the internet or go golfing to "foster customer relations". Which can sometimes be hard work, but most of the time amounts to similar effort as average man's leisure. Of course, they often get the extra stress of "I have a lot, how do I not lose it" so their position is not necessarily an enviable one.
Can't blame them for it either, that's what I would do in their position.
Re:30 hours per week? (Score:5, Insightful)
As I said, there are different people. There's a handful who actually did work for their money, and who tend to get used to working long hours. These certainly exist, but they're few and in between.
Our culture celebrates those that came to money all on their own, and generally keeps quiet about the sad fact that they are a small minority. Most people classified as rich either inherit or marry into money. As a result, their motivation to work is typically of the level of "minimal needed to keep the money coming and keep relatives satisfied". Hence you get the "country club" types of wealthy people who "work" at those clubs. Which is often actual work, as they are arranging deals in their own way.
However the actual process is typically similar to that of exchanging drinks in a bar for poorer folk.
Re:30 hours per week? (Score:5, Insightful)
Sure I have credit card debt, but the house is half paid for, I have a low(er) paying but pretty much guaranteed job working in education, a pretty much guaranteed retirement package. But not a lot in savings.
On the other hand, I have a wife of 20 years who I presume still loves me, 3 wonderful kids, and a relatively stress free life. I get to do what I want every few weeks (spend a day shooting, fishing, etc), and in general I come home from work pretty happy.
I'm rich.
But I sure ain't wealthy.
Re:30 hours per week? (Score:4, Insightful)
You're happy. Different things. Notably rich people tend to be quite unhappy throughout history, due to having extra worry of "who's out to get me for my wealth" which is constant.
Re:30 hours per week? (Score:4, Insightful)
Poor people rationalize their lives by believing that myth.
Re:30 hours per week? (Score:4, Insightful)
Money doesn't appear to bring addional happiness once a level of sufficiency is reached. That level is where the bank account stays in the black without you having to worry about it. Becoming rich enough that you don't have to work anymore, for example, won't make you happier.
But poverty can certainly make you unhappy.
Re:30 hours per week? (Score:5, Informative)
Sure I have credit card debt, but the house is half paid for
Get rid of the higher interest debt first - that would be the credit card. Also note that the mortgage interest is probably at a much lower effective APR and is tax deductible, whereas that cc interest is not. Too many people focus on paying off the house while they should be paying off the cars, credit cards and other more expensive debts first.
Re:30 hours per week? (Score:5, Interesting)
The premise of the book seems to be that the ordinary working stiff can have a net worth (including his house) of a million bucks, by the time he retires. If he works hard, operates in a miserly fashion, and invests wisely.
First of all, it shows selection bias by not considering those that thought they were investing wisely, but happened upon a banking crisis for example. The book having been written in a bull market.
Secondly, the premise itself shows that, due to inflation, one million bucks isn't "rich" any more. Truly rich people are well out of the reach of aspirations of employees. Their wealth has been accumulated over generations.
A "millionaire" was being used in the 1920s as a word for a rich person. There's been an awful lot of inflation since then.
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Just out of interest, did you just google first link that looked like it would support your hypothesis and copy paste it, or are you actively trolling?
Because one look at the paper itself tells you very clearly that it's not at all what you pretend it is. It's an analysis on household inheritance of baby boomers within USA.
Large inheritance:
1. Is very much avoided being given to people in USA and in fact in almost all Western countries - it's usually trust funds and companies. Reason for this is taxation. T
Re:30 hours per week? (Score:5, Informative)
It's not causal. Working long hours does not cause you to be highly paid or wealthy. If that were true, all a vegetable picker would have to do is work 120 hours a week and retire in comfort. A CEO does not make 800X what his average staff makes because he works 800 times as long.
Sadly, on average, the most accurate predictor of someone's income is their father's income.
Re:30 hours per week? (Score:5, Insightful)
It does if you count high school and college and grad school. Tell me, how hard do you think those vegetable pickers were working when they were 16? Were they staying late after school to learn Calculus, or were they cutting class to get high with their homies? Working hard and being smart actually matter. Anyone who says otherwise has never tried either working hard or being smart.
They were probably too busy picking vegetables at 16. They probably study when they can. College? Grad School? With fruit pickin' parents? You really are disconnected from the real world down here aren't you.
Funny, most business owners/CEO's I've met are decent with basic algebra but weak when it comes to calculus, trig, etc.
A.) They know people. (usually part of a boys club at an expensive university)
B.) Have rich fathers
C.) Work hard.
Pick any two of the above and it will fit most CEO's... they also have to be willing to make hard choices at the expense of others to further their agenda.... or perform some CYA.
No, it's because what he knows is 800x as valuable. Not all work is equal. That's one of the many flaws in Marx's philosophy.
So Carly Fiorina's contributions were worth more than a seasoned electronics engineer with 25 years of experience? I think not.
A CEO is a corporate face undeserving of being put on a pedestal unless they built the company they are running with their bare hands in the beginning.
Sadly, on average, the most accurate predictor of someone's income is their father's income.
That's because income is dependent on intelligence and hard work. Intelligence is highly heritable and appreciation for hard work is handed down in successful families.
Spoken like a true wannabe aristocrat. The possibility of being intelligent may be inherited, but actual intelligence isn't. Most trust fund babies I've ever met have been pretty useless except for office political gain. Breeding has nothing to do with being fit for the job.
The hard work that's handed down is soaked in the blood of the people who actually worked for it that were desperate enough to allow themselves to be exploited.
Re:30 hours per week? (Score:5, Funny)
Ok let's test you theory:
Nicely done. Your rigorous analysis sure proved him wrong.
It takes skill, hard work, ruthless ambition and extreme good luck to get rich and stay there.
Is it okay if we use your method on your own theory?
Paris Hilton - nope
George Bush - nope
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do you have any sources that say the majority of wealth in this country was inherited? A skimming the forbes richest list show quite a few people who didn't get there via just cashing an inheritance and others who did (walton's family, as the obvious top examples).
I've generally found in 3rd world countries the amount that inheritance matters and who you know matters far more than in the US. In fact, I think the US is the most democratic on this (I've traveled quite a bit and lived abroad, but I've never
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wealthy people are wealthy largely because their family is wealthy, not due to hard work (which anyone can do).
Citation needed. Isn't it quite possible that many wealthy people are wealthy largely because their parents taught them how to make and handle money? Yes, there are other advantages to coming from a well off family, but you can make $1m/year and still be broke if you're bad with money.
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Re:30 hours per week? (Score:5, Insightful)
People who do physical labor will work that much. Some people with 2 jobs work more.
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My job is split about 50/50 between sitting in front of a computer designing complicated radio systems, and the manual labour involved in hauling all the kit up to the roofs of very tall buildings and putting it together. It's still only about 30 hours a week.
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You're not doing the kind of manual labor I was refering to. The type of jobs I refer to regularly top 35 hours a week for a measly hourly wage. Some of these people work 2nd jobs to make ends meet.
If you work at a computer, you're working a desk job, which in your case is half the time, which means you have access to a way to look busy without doing much work. (slashdot.)
Re:30 hours per week? (Score:4, Interesting)
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I know that a lot of janitors/custodial service as well as bus drivers that do that. Some people in retail and "health care"/assisted living places work that much too. White collar workers mostly have it "easier" because their jobs pay far more. 50 hours is a bit low, since many of them work weekends too.
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Entrepreneurs!
Re:30 hours per week? (Score:4, Insightful)
Entrepreneurs never stop working, off hours, weekends, holidays, those are just words, they don't mean anything when you run a business.
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Who the hell works more than 30 hours per week anyway?
Depends. Does "work time" include "slashdot time"?
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When I had a job in industrial manufacturing before attending college, I would regularly work up to 100 hours a week.
Of course, I was a teenager fresh out of high school, enjoying the 18/hr straight time + time-and-a-half for overtime + double time for holidays.
Damn, but those were some bitchin' summers!
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These days... Well, I'm here for 40 hours, what more do you fuckers want from me? Actual productivity?
Meh, I'll leave that for the newbs who still have some ambition left to beat out of them.
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Re:30 hours per week? (Score:5, Insightful)
Your problem is you don't know what you are worth. I expect you're living in a small town and the employer thinks you have few options. However, they also have few options.
All you need is to reduce your desperation level and all the power in that relationship comes to you. Get another contract or two. Make the effort. Offer rates similar to the one your giving now if you have to. Then let them stew, just turn down their change and let entropy take over. They will be back, on their knees. You should be charging them $50/hour or more.
Re:30 hours per week? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:30 hours per week? (Score:5, Insightful)
Sssssssshhhht!!! Don't tell the Americans! :)
Re:30 hours per week? (Score:5, Interesting)
From the UK recent travel health advisories:
Malaysia
USA
What article (Score:3)
I don't see a link for an article.
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Re:What article (Score:5, Informative)
I know Malaysia well (even though I live in the UK). I first went there in '97 and married a Malaysian-born woman. Some observations:
HTH
Re:What article (Score:5, Interesting)
The reason is that after the war or so, the first people to start running businesses and such were Chinese (most likely chased out from Singapore by the Japanese), and they got very rich doing so.
The government exploits the fact that a lot of Malaysians are jealous of the Chinese for being successful (which happens because they worked hard at building businesses and such) , so they put up huge campaigns of national identity and such to encourage hatred of the Chinese. However, they government doesn't really do anything about it (they can't - said Chinese businesses pay a good amount of tax and employ a lot of Malays). So basically the Chinese are demonized for being successful and "exploiting" Malays
If you're white, you're usually a tourist or an investor, so you're treated well to get at your $$$. If you're a Chinese investor with $$$, everyone eyes you like you're going to enslave them.
The government feeds off this sentiment and basically just fans the flames. There's no real democracy (there is voting, but the opposition is usually highly discredited, or even arrested if they have a chance of winning - being a Muslim state, there are plenty of "crimes" that one can accuse the Opposition of).
Re:What article (Score:5, Interesting)
That closes the loop on what I noticed about the Chinese in Singapore hating the Japanese. I actually witnessed a shop keeper play dumb with a Japanese trying to buy something using Engrish. Old Japanese guy stormed out in frustration. I go to buy something, no problem, he explained the other guy was Japanese.
I don't know if I would choose Malaysia or Singapore though. Both are kind of strict countries if you run afoul of the local powers that be. Fun to visit, not so much on the living there. I'd hit up Belize. Nice locals, cheap and only 1 hour plane ride to Miami if the shit goes down.
Malaysian craziness (Score:2)
As you say, the politics there are .... interesting. There seem to be a lot of laws giving Muslims preference over Christians (which might make it unsafe for me to talk about my religious values, though it beats Saudi Arabia.) They've got the anti-drug fanaticism like their neighbors in Singapore (though probably not as bad as Dubai.) They periodically talk about censoring the whole Internet, with the excuse that it's about pornography but the reality that it's about criticisms of their politicians.
The M
Um, what article? (Score:5, Funny)
No link in the summary, no link after the fold. Really?
Re:Um, what article? (Score:5, Insightful)
It's not like anybody clicks the link anyway.
Re:Um, what article? (Score:5, Funny)
I must be new here.
Missing link. (Score:2)
Has /. evolved to a point where there is no A to RTF?
Re:Missing link. (Score:5, Informative)
I found the missing link!
http://itknowledgeexchange.techtarget.com/unchartered-waters/interview-with-a-digital-migrant-meet-john-hunter/ [techtarget.com]
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Has /. evolved to a point where there is no A to RTF?
An A has vanished from "Malysia" too. Open season, I guess.
How did it? (Score:2)
How did it get to the front page without the link?
Re:How did it? (Score:5, Funny)
How did it get to the front page without the link?
I don't know what website you think you're on, but this is Slashdot.
Lovely article (Score:2)
Next time we might even get an article with a link. Finally an excuse not to RTFA!
Move to country with cheap expenses while retaining job with good pay. Sounds simple, I'm sure everyone has done it, after all there can't be any complications?
Re:Lovely article (Score:5, Funny)
You need an excuse not to RTFA?
Imagine the lovely article (Score:2)
So it's ITFA.
I know folks working in Malaysia... (Score:2)
...and getting over $100K a year.
But if $16K floats your boat... by all means take the job.
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I think the intent was to not take a job, i.e. the suggestion is that if you're a freelancer making low-but-nonzero money, you can just move somewhere with a low cost of living. Of course, you could also move there and get $100k+ job, but that would defeat the goal of not having a boss.
Re:I know folks working in Malaysia... (Score:4, Interesting)
This. I've spent the last 10 years working in South East asia (Malaysia now, but Singapore before that for 3 years). As a white guy with any level of technical smarts you're easily earning 100+, 180 for managers. My coworkers are pleasant, cost of living is very low meaning I've been able to save quite a lot up. I don't see myself moving home so much as I do retiring.
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Even the big earners fall into the expat trap, finding themselves more or less stuck in a foreign place, when they find out their savings wil
Ubatuba, SP Brasil (Score:5, Interesting)
Graduated with my Masters in EE/CS at 23. Got a job that allowed for remote working. Saved up the required $50K to apply for a permanent resident visa as a foreign investor. Opened a shop and hired some local Brasilians to do contract programming work for US firms. Learned Portuguese and became a Brasilian citizen. Quit my job and renounced my US citizenship once I was making enough on my Brasil business. Ignored letter from IRS demanding "exit" tax.
Now do contract work for US firm at US labor rates via sales office in the US, and the money comes to Brasil where it goes farther, and I live on a beach in a Pousada. I don't even speak English well anymore. I'm not even 40 and I could quit work today but the money is too good.
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You belong in jail.
WORK AT HOME MOTHER EARNS $668686634635/WEEK (Score:5, Funny)
Top form, timothy.
you could do that in the U.S. too (Score:5, Insightful)
If your goal is just to live cheaply, and you don't have kids, there are plenty of places in the U.S. where you can live ok on $16k/yr. I did it as a grad student. Not in the SF Bay Area, though.
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Also, if you cook for yourself, you can get with good food for $150 a month. Of course, dependent on how well you cook.
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I'm making much more than 16K a year, but I don't spend anywhere near what I make.
I'm not sure what kind of car you have that requires $200 per month. Maybe you mean per year? And if needed I could ditch my car. I really only use it for shopping on the weekends, and I could just take a bus instead. Food for me runs around $140 per month. Rent is $365 per month (screw good apartments, they are too expensive). Internet is $50 (yea I can't really get a better price in the town I'm in), cell phone is $35 a mont
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I currently live in a decent-sized US city and make do on about $12,000/year.
Car insurance is $500 per 6 months with comprehensive and 100/300k coverage. Food is barely over $100/month for two because we cook. Rent is under $500 for a two-bedroom apartment.
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I live decently on $17,736 in San Diego, California. I lucked out and my house only has a mortgage of $560 and live in a good neighborhood that's close to Qualcomm Stadium. How in the hell do you pay $200 a month for car insurance? Do you frequently get in accidents?
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'Course, my budget looks absolutely nothing like that now, but it was a good deal slimmer than that through college.
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Yeah, but he got sick of living in the USA.
Have done this for 3 years in the US. (Score:5, Interesting)
I have been doing this for about three years now in the United States. Basically, bought property ($6000), built small dome to live in ($3000), went half time at work (4 hours a day doing low stress programming). I make about $17,000 a year and live pretty comfortably on that. The key is having no debts, eliminating as many recurring payments as possible (I pay about $300/mo for all utilities and phone), drive as little as possible and don't eat out much.
I even wrote a blog about it. http://www.minimalintentions.com/search/label/Geodesic%20Dome
My plan was that when I had all this free time I could work on my own projects (of which I have many). Unfortunately turns out that I am pretty lazy so instead I sit in a hammock and read books more... ah well... I still plan to get motivated at some point... eventually.
(repost since I was logged out the first time)
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300$ a month for utilities?! We're paying maybe a hundred, living in a normal condo in a normal city. Maybe 25-30 for electric, 10-15 for gas, 50 for phone and internet. And that's two people; I only had bills like that by myself in the middle of the summer, running the AC all the time. What crazy utilities are you paying for? (I guess there are probably other less exciting utilities, like water/trash/etc. that go into our HOA bill, but I can't imagine they come to 200 dollars a month...)
include HOA, prop tax, insurance, all utilities (Score:2)
And I include recurring information/communication/entertment fees as utilities, e.g. landline, cable, smartphone, internet, newspaper, netflix, gaming subscriptions, etc. For some people this is their second highest monthly costs.
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Ah. Alright, yeah, if you're paying 100/m for a smartphone... to be fair, I didn't include my smartphone - I don't think of it as a house utility - and my girlfriend is paying almost that much for her plan, so if you really need crazy unlimited everything fast all the time, there you go. I'm paying 15 bucks a month for my smartphone (if I use less than a hundred minutes, less than a hundred texts, and less than a hundred mb of data. Which I have no problems doing, personally. Even if you use more, though, y
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Ah, yeah, I suppose I am spoiled for wireless coverage - if Sprint doesn't cover your area, then that cuts out most of your options for prepaid. (I'm just saying, if Sprint *does* cover your area, you should look into Ting. I didn't really feel like paying the standard 50$/m for prepaid, let alone the crazy 90-100 Verizon and others of that ilk charge, so I just didn't have a smartphone for years after everyone else did. When I found out I could be paying 15-25 bucks a month, I jumped on it. I don't work fo
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Neat, glad to spread the word! (It's one of only a small handful of companies I have no direct affiliation with, but like telling people about, just because they do things right.)
I would tell you that if you want a 25$-off-your-first-bill coupon, you could poke me and I'd give you one (it's one of those things where I get a coupon when someone else uses one I generated). Let me know if you want one of those - but I would also say, in the interest of full disclosure, that when I got a phone from them a few m
Re:Have done this for 3 years in the US. (Score:5, Insightful)
The key is having no debts...
Actually, the key is having no medical problems.
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The secret is no ongoing medical issues. If he's like most Americans and he had a serious medical emergency come up he'd probably end up bankrupt anyway. This way he just has less to lose.
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I know... I am saving a little... but I doubt any amount would be "enough" at the rate things seem to be going. I have basic medical insurance but when the time comes I am sure I will be screwed like everybody else. Probably good that I don't have a family. My main concern is the quality of fertilizer I will make wherever I end up.
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Me want (Score:2)
China (Score:3, Interesting)
I've been doing this in China for the last 7 years. The good thing here is that live is very scalable. If income is low you relocate to the countryside where you get by quite decently on $100/month and 4M Internet. If income rises you move towards bigger cities where you can spend over $10.000/month and have FTTH if you must.
And by scalability I don't just mean the living expenses. Also moving from place to place is dead easy. I arrive in a place and spend a day if not just a few hours on finding and renting a flat. I'll move in that same night or the next day and have my stuff arrive by truck a few days later.
If you're a remotely political person or care mildly about human rights, China may not be for you. For the average person however who just wants to work the least amount possible and yet have her/his dinner cooked, house cleaned and pussy licked/dick sucked as if she/he were queen/king, it's an awesome place.
Or you can stay in the U.S. (Score:5, Informative)
I moved from San Francisco to small-town Ohio four years ago. I'm a freelance writer and have never met most of my clients face-to-face, so my income didn't change at all.
But now I'm out of debt and living in a huge house I bought for $50,000 and enjoy very much. The money that used to go into such things as $6 drinks and $130 residential parking stickers now goes into travel, entertainment, and investment.
I can't walk to eight sushi restaurants anymore. But I've found my lifestyle's improved quite a bit without having to leave my home country. And if I want to be around that many sushi restaurants, I can fly back to San Francisco whenever I want.
Unless you really want to, why leave the country? The U.S. can be very cheap -- you just have to get away from the coasts.
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The bad news is... You're in Ohio!
Joking aside, whether or not you can move to a Third World State in the USA and still make a Bay Area salary is highly dependent on your employer. If I went in to work and asked my boss, "Boss, I'd like to move back to rural Pennsylvania, work remotely, and keep making the same salary!" it would take him hours to stop laughing. I suspect this is true for 99% of Bay Area employers out there.
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Some people do it. It's risky though. Ie, we had a programmer who lived in rural Montana with a silicon valley salary. Ie, living the good life except for the monthly trips to the office. However if you get laid off then you're stuck trying to find someone else who will let you do that. The reason people are in silicon valley is because it's safe. If you lose a job there are plenty of companies nearby who may be interested in your skills (although too many jobs are not web stuff now). If you never bu
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And if everyone does what you did the quiet, scenic inexpensive areas that you moved to will become McMansion-infested suburban holes with high prices and everything else you ran away from. You didn't solve a problem. You're just the leading edge of the problem in a new state and you're crowing about it like it's something great.
I think you underestimate the size of the 'fly-over' parts of the United States of America. And the number of dying small towns that could use an influx of new people.
ps. Tom Geller - fyi, Toronto has all the sushi you could ever want, and is a hell of a lot cheaper to get to!
Argentina (Score:4, Interesting)
After arriving in Argentina, I translated my resume and started looking for work by finding the equivalent of Monster.com (bumeran.com). It took about 3 weeks, but I got interviews at both Sony and IBM. IBM wanted to send me to Canada for consulting because I spoke english
The experience was fantastic. There, 9-5 actually meant 9-5 - very limited flexibility in terms of hours and what I could work on, but it was okay, I was doing it more for the concept. The engineers were all excellent and my American education didn't either disadvantage or help -- we all were pretty up on the lastest java techniques.
After about 4 months, I decided that this glimpse into the future was sufficient so I returned to the US to do a PhD.
Heh I told a co-worker this (Score:2)
A co-worker/long time friend (longer than we have worked together) recently became a full time remote employee as he moved his family back to where he and his wife are from to be near their extended family for child care (day care is very expensive, they figured she was working basically just to pay for day care)
I told him...if they are going to let you go full time remote.... fuck the south, move to India! Take your big American professional, solid middle to upper middle class salary, and up and move to In
Balkans (Score:5, Interesting)
If you can make $15/hr remotely, I'd suggest Montenegro. Find a place near the sea, you got it made. You might have to work at getting a really great broadband deal, but there are some to be had.
If you're single, the women there are beautiful and have sexy accents, you've got the sea and off-season the tourists go away and you can really enjoy the good life.
You're a short hop from shopping in Italy, skiing in the Alps and you're still not in the EU (yet). Learn to play tuba in a Balkan horn band. Drink lots of coffee and slivovitza. Go out in your backyard and pick fresh figs for breakfast.
Even if swimming in crystal-blue seas is not your idea of fun, you can set yourself down in a sidewalk cafe and watch one Mila Jovovic after another walk by. And there's none of the snobbiness of Western Europe.
Re:Balkans (Score:5, Insightful)
Don't know what you mean by "cheap" but Montenegro had a sophisticated civilization when the folks in North America were still running around in loincloths chasing buffalo.
You can visit churches from the 13th century and ruins from the Ottoman Empire and before (way before).
And the sexy girls in Montenegro speak very good English.
Tell you what, an American computer geek who's living in a beautiful house on the seaside working 20 hours a week remotely would not be considered a "loser back home" by his friends back in the 'States who have to share a 500 sq ft studio apartment with some other geek making $15/hr, working 60 hours a week just to get by. That expat wouldn't be considered a "loser" at all. He'd be considered a hero.
But make no mistake, it takes a little courage to get up and move. It's not for everyone. Some people just don't have what it takes to strike out on their own that way.
If you believe you have to stay in the "game you were born into" in order to succeed, that means you've already lost the game.
Forgot to mention... (Score:5, Insightful)
Malaysia sucks. Seriously, detention without trial? Death penalty for drugs? State religion? High risk of infectious disease? Monarchy? Sex-trafficking?
NO. THANKS.
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Then swim over to the Philippines. No death penalty, no monarchy, but more drugs and sex with risk of infectious diseases. Mostly christian like the USA. Real fun place if you don't mind the random kidnapping and shooting, which may or may not make you feel more at home. Gun laws stricter than the US but lots of loose firearms.
Costa Rica & Panama (Score:5, Informative)
$6k a year is doable. $16k a year would be quite pleasant. I would avoid the capital or other large cities. Actually getting a work permit or visa to either country is difficult to impossible, but I know people in both countries who have been there for decades on a tourist visa. Do note, this tends to limit your options for local employment; it's far better to work online.
There's essentially no native culture (or cuisine) in either place, "post-colonial" about sums it up. The police are nice enough but underpaid, the laws are enforced relatively arbitrarily and generally not in favor of extranjeros. If you're running a business, [a] congratulations for getting through the bureaucracy to accomplish this, and [b] you may from time to time expect to have laws about licenses and restrictions enforced against you that your (Tico) competition does not. I'm not sure whether I can really say that corruption was common, but it's probably fair to say that people were understanding about dealing with the laws and regulations -- or avoiding that, if necessary. I don't really consider this a bad thing, but if you have the expectation that the rule of law is going to be universally or rigidly applied, you may be disappointed.
The weather is beautiful, it's not terribly expensive to get to and from either country (at least, from the US), English is spoken by a good percentage of the population, utilities are cheap and reliable, health care is extremely affordable (medical tourism is common), internet is not that fast but widely available, and of course, knowledgeable tech workers are in high demand. In Costa Rica the beer is not good and relatively expensive, in Panama you can get two beers for $1. Computers are available, but expensive. It's probably going to be a good idea to buy in the US and work out a way to get it. I've heard both good and bad things about the mail system; I'd call it generally reliable, but the paranoid might want to find other means of receiving packages. If you end up going back and forth to the states a lot, you can make good money on the side bringing electronics back with you.
Panama is by far the cheaper of the two countries, you would probably be able to get by on less than $6k annually. I didn't like it quite as much because, at least in the places I frequented, cocaine was both common and extremely cheap there. That's fine for those who like that sort of thing, but generally I don't think it does much good for the community. Drug laws in both countries are sparingly enforced.
Roads are generally better in Panama; the country has a lot more money due to that whole canal thing. I can't recommend driving in Panama City, or anywhere in Costa Rica. Cars are absurdly expensive, and paradoxically people don't care about the lines on the road, the blinky things above them, the relative speed and velocity of other vehicles, or pedestrians.
Fun Facts: there are no addresses in Costa Rica. [wsj.com] There are no roads connecting Central America with South America. [wikipedia.org]
Western Panama (Chiriqui) (Score:3)
Among the big advantages in Panama f
You don't have to go that far. (Score:5, Informative)
You don't have to go that far. Just move to a third-world state like Vermont where the cost of living is a tiny fraction of what it is in the cities. No, I'm not talking about the ritzy places like Burlington, Norwich, Montpelier and Woodstock. I'm talking the real Vermont, the other 99.9%.
Wait, forget I ever said that. I don't want everyone moving here! :)
Thailand (Score:3, Interesting)
Consider Taiwan (Score:4, Informative)
After living in Silicon Valley for almost 10 years, we moved to Taiwan for 4 months (just got back), while I continued working as an independent contractor for US-based companies doing custom web and iOS software development.
In a word, it was *awesome*.
You could definitely make a very decent living in Taiwan, especially outside of Taipei (Taipei could still work pretty well, but rent prices are significantly higher than the rest of the country.)
Living expenses are incredibly cheap, especially for a first-world country. Bonus, If you can qualify for an ARC (Alien Resident Card), then their nationalized health care is really cheap.
We had a beautiful (albeit on the small side) 2 BR/1 BA apartment in the heart of Kaohsiung (Taiwan's second largest city) for $400/month. Utilities at around $75/month. Wife and I both had unlimited 3G on our iPhones for $30 per month each — oh, and that *includes* UNLIMITED tethering (something you'll never get with AT&T or Verizon).
Food in Taiwan is incredible... both in taste, as well in cost. We never cooked, always eating out every breakfast, lunch and dinner to the tune of about $15 per day total.
Taxis can take you pretty much anywhere for about $2-$4 per trip... or you can take the subway for about $1 per ride.
All told, we were spending about $1500 per month.
However, despite its benefits, there are definitely some downsides. Taiwan (like most of East Asia) has notoriously poor air quality. Lack of emission control standards on vehicles make it very difficult to walk (let alone jog or work out) outside without feeling a bit nauseous. When walking around outside, you will see people wearing masks *everywhere*.
Also, unlike other countries in East Asia with a stronger western influence, it is very difficult to get around Taiwan without being able to speak Chinese. While there are some people who do speak very basic conversational English, it's a bit more on the rare side, so trying to get around or order at restaurants can be challenging. It tends to be a bit easier in Taipei, but then, you'll end up paying more in living expenses.
But if you are able to get through some of those challenges, it can be an incredibly rewarding experience. We are already trying to figure out how and when we can get out there again!
Re: (Score:3)
he's just taking initiative and sticking it to the man.
The man says, "I can scour the globe for the cheapest labor, while selling my product for full price to the peons who are captive because they cannot scour the globe for the cheapest housing/medical care"
Dude says, "Oh yeah? Watch me, I'm moving to where housing/medical care is cheap. F_ You."
I don't see a problem here.
Re: (Score:3)
"and sticking it to the man"
At $10/hour, I don't think they mind. They say "please stick it to me some more!"
Re: (Score:2)
Nowhere in TFA does the guy say he's making $10/hr, only that he could survive on $16K/yr, which the author extrapolated to $10/hr. The guy talks about traveling several weeks a year, which he doesn't include in the $16K, so presumably he's making significantly more than that.
Re:Once you are in can you get out? (Score:5, Insightful)
If you're doing R&D on a project that you later want to commercialize, and you don't need to physically meet clients (or you have someone else who can represent you).. and no kids/family to take care of, you may as well lower your cost of living as much as possible.
The problem is when your business model assumes you'll be in Malaysia forever, then you're stuck.
I lived in Eastern Europe (BG) for 2 years. I would bill as a canadian company, get paid in Canada, then transfer money back. The cost of living wasn't very different though (circa 2002), when you even things out. Living in "poorer" countries looks appealing at first, but when you look further than the cost of food and beer, the costs of housing, health system, education system, social inequalities / security, etc. you usually don't want to stay there too long.
Re: (Score:3)
So that is the US, Britain and France...
You could also mention that when you go into the naked scanner you need to put your hands on your head in the submission pose of somebody surrendering. Way more humiliating than having some guy touch your genitals in one respect. We win two world wars, then you see a stream of British people being marched like cattle with hands on their heads :-(.
Actually in all 3 countries all the customs officials were quite polite about doing the manual search, and I didn't feel at