India To Overtake US On Number of Developers By 2017 157
dcblogs writes "There are about 18.2 million software developers worldwide, a number that is due to rise to 26.4 million by 2019, a 45% increase, says Evans Data Corp. in its latest Global Developer Population and Demographic Study. Today, the U.S. leads the world in software developers, with about 3.6 million. India has about 2.75 million. But by 2018, India will have 5.2 million developers, a nearly 90% increase, versus 4.5 million in the U.S., a 25% increase though that period, Evans Data projects. India's software development growth rate is attributed, in part, to its population size, 1.2 billion, and relative youth, with about half the population under 25 years of age. Rapid economic growth is fueling interest in development. India's services firms hire, in many cases, thousands of new employees each quarter. Consequently, IT and software work is seen as clear path to the middle class for many of the nation's young. For instance, in one quarter this year, Tata Consultancy Services added more than 17,000 employees, gross, bringing its total headcount to 263,600. In the same quarter of 2010, the company had about 150,000 workers."
They Took our Jobs! (Score:1)
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Quanity over Quality? ~nt~ (Score:4, Interesting)
~nt~
Re:Quanity over Quality? ~nt~ (Score:5, Interesting)
This exactly. What are all these developers doing? I don't see an explosion of Indian-made software that matches these numbers.
Re:Quanity over Quality? ~nt~ (Score:5, Funny)
What are all these developers doing?
In my experience, they're ensuring that U.S. developers have poorly-designed software to fix.
Re:Quanity over Quality? ~nt~ (Score:5, Funny)
This is much incorrect! Indian designers are most making with excellent design and superiorest documentation! Their English is excellent handsome!
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I am not knowing what is it wrong with that?
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I am not knowing what is it wrong with that?
Let me prepone our meeting so I can address your doubts
Re:Quanity over Quality? ~nt~ (Score:5, Informative)
That's because the software they help write has already been branded by a start up in LA or New York.
The stuff you do see them building is plugins and modules for various platforms where they can take the idea of another developer, add a new logo and what not, and repackage it for sale as their code.
I have worked with many different "One Step Checkout" for the Magento platform that were developed in India. They are all basically copies of each other, with only one version (developed I believe in Ukraine) standing out as being solidly developed and easy to work with.
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In my experience most software is Indian-made, you just didn't realize it because it has an American brand name on it.
(also, most of the comments on this thread seem pretty racist to me)
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(also, most of the comments on this thread seem pretty racist to me)
Sigh...that didn't take long.
My dear fellow, you need to comment out the hard-coded link in your head between disparaging comments about nations and disparaging comments about ethnicities and replace it with some logic in compliance with best practices developed in, among other places, the American software industry.
Re:Quanity over Quality? ~nt~ (Score:5, Informative)
You don't see what's happening on the back-end and they don't want you do know. Most consulting companies are now a shim layer of local people who outsource the actual coding, that's at least how Accenture, Deloitte, PWC, Ernst & Young, KPMG, Capgemini, McKinsey etc. operate. Other big companies just go directly to Indian consulting companies like Tata or get their own local staff in India. Locally, they still have the same brands, the same "local" image but in reality they're getting Indians to take over piece by piece. In-house development is slowly being phased out, in reality what's left is a sales front like a sophisticated version of Walmart. I was at an interview for a position like that, I'd be the only local resource and leader keeping up appearances while eight people in India would be doing all the actual work. Didn't get the job and in retrospect glad I didn't.
Re:Quanity over Quality? ~nt~ (Score:5, Insightful)
It's worse that just the offshoring aspect.
When my company decided to outsource, they fired pretty much all the local developers except for one 'business analyst' who knows the code and how it works. That wasn't me, but they also kept me on as a 'consultant' to the outsourcers so something still gets done and the whole project can be viewed as something other than a total failure. The Indian devs were not great, but I figured that at least they'd be captive. Prior to outsourcing the company had taken to hiring (cheap) young programmers, and (surprise!) had a retention problem. But Indian programmers are 'happy just to have a job', right? Wrong - if anything, they're more mobile than their American counterparts, because the big outsourcing firms want it that way. They're constantly moving people off of our project, and bringing in new people to learn it all on our dime.
So the one expected productivity benefit is not there - but it's even worse. Since these guys don't hang around, there is no next generation coming up with the in-depth knowledge of these products to become the 'business analysts' and senior devs to replace us. So when I and the other guy who are still sustaining the whole contraption retire (and we're both older than 55), the whole thing sinks. Prior to outsourcing, there were other dev's with seniority that could've stepped in to take our places.
In today's world of perverse incentives, though, this isn't a 'problem'. The company is owned by a private equity firm that expects to dump it long before that final crash. But if I were a private equity firm looking to buy a piece of crap like this, I'd certainly ask what plans exist to produce the next generation of senior techs to keep the place going. As it is, it's musical chairs, at some point a buyer will get stuck with no chairs left.
Re:Quanity over Quality? ~nt~ (Score:4, Insightful)
I agree on your points. The employee turnover in many outsourcing firms is unsustainable for major, longer projects. However sometimes the unreliability and the cultural gap are even greater nuisance than the high fluctuation or the low quality results. I found that asian developers will often claim that everything is understood and fine, when in fact they barely understand requirements and are having great difficulty finding a solution. As if admitting to difficulties or asking questions is a sign of weakness or incompetence. Development will drag on like this until someone on the team starts to heavily inquire on their progress and figures out that they don't really know what they're doing.
In one company I worked for in the past, we once had two green card workers (or the German equivalent of that) from India. They stayed in Germany and worked at our company for one month, when they left everyone stumped because they decided to go back home to 'marry'. That was the official explanation at least. I still don't get it, because at that time the barriers for green card workers in Germany was very high -they had to earn more than about 64000€ to be accepted- which must have been a fortune to someone from India.
There are many aspects which make outsourcing software development a lot less feasible than many managers would like to believe. The main one in my opinion is that software development is very complex work and requires -a lot- of communication and coordination. It doesn't help if your workers are spread across several time zones and barely speak your language. However the most overlooked aspect are the cultural differences.
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But if I were a private equity firm looking to buy a piece of crap like this, I'd certainly ask what plans exist to produce the next generation of senior techs to keep the place going. As it is, it's musical chairs, at some point a buyer will get stuck with no chairs left.
Thanks. Insightful, refreshingly non-racist and in my experience totally true.
I've seen the same thing many times, especially when doing "due dilligence".
The trouble is, the financial guys don't like it when you put it on the risk log with a big dollar number next to it.
The head of IT is swiftly wheeled in to present great things like "technology roadmaps" and "contingency plans", (which are normally complete BS), and the entire thing is swept under the carpet.
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(if you don't have enough quantity, it's highly likely you will not have quality. A small quantity is likely to mean: nobody is interested. Thus... it's a snaaake!)
College Costs and Preceived Value (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:College Costs and Preceived Value (Score:5, Insightful)
I am not convinced the US has a problem. TFA projects the number of developers in the US will grow by 25% over the same 5-year period, which is pretty darned robust. That growth looks feeble only by comparison to India.
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Edit: I am not convinced the US has a problem with *the growth in number of developers.* It has lots of other problems. :-)
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Edit: I am not convinced the US has a problem with *the growth in number of developers.* It has lots of other problems. :-)
One of which is that a company can save loads of money by offshoring all their development to some place where they can pay them in bottle caps.
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Should have been "one of which is *the perception* that..."
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The Capitol Wasteland?
"Yeah, I'll do your coding job for 1000 caps and those 30 rounds of .44 caliber ammunition"
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India isn't cheap anymore is the problem. China is quickly becoming not cheap as well. American developers are absolutely cheaper then Taiwanese, South Korean, or Japanese developers. Maybe you can start outsourcing to Nigeria or Pakistan if you want ultra cheap labor for your programming needs.
or bring it back to the US to Mississippi or Alabama. The people are dirt poor, not very well educated, and still have the accent problem, but at least the time zone and payment issue is easier to deal with.
(I am
Re:College Costs and Preceived Value (Score:4, Interesting)
India isn't cheap anymore is the problem. China is quickly becoming not cheap as well. American developers are absolutely cheaper then Taiwanese, South Korean, or Japanese developers. Maybe you can start outsourcing to Nigeria or Pakistan if you want ultra cheap labor for your programming needs.
or bring it back to the US to Mississippi or Alabama. The people are dirt poor, not very well educated, and still have the accent problem, but at least the time zone and payment issue is easier to deal with.
(I am a developer in MS, and I am not sure if I should be happy or sad that my Indian Counterparts have a better quality of life then I do)
If I'm understanding this, one possible conclusion is that offshoring is to a certain extent self-leveling. Offshoring your development causes prices in that market to increase, and prices in local markets to decrease. At some point offshoring no longer makes economic sense, and there might be a general tendency to migrate back to dirt-poor onshore communities, paying them in cigarette wrappers instead of bottle caps, I guess. And so the wrecking ball swings back and forth.
In the meantime, someone local at the company has to deal with the ramifications of code generated on milk crates in a lean-to made of roped together tin sheets.
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The US will still have plenty of developer jobs, though, it may get retitled to reflect the fact that the work done in India is development. The work done in the US is simply refactoring, adding legible comments, fixing poorly named variables, etc.
The last few months of my previous job were basically nothing more than fixing bugs introduced by the Indian team. Good training I suppose, but not my cup of tea.
Cleaning up Indian code... (Score:3)
Sounds like a tremendous opportunity for US devs. The more crapware that comes out of India, the more cleanup that needs to happen, and as a result, the more opportunities for US devs to make a living doing work that may otherwise not have been available.
Yeah, there is the question of whether that time and effort could have been productively used or not. But the argument here would be similar to the ones that have been run about Windows in the past. Due to all the bugs in Windows, as well as malware, y
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India will grow 90% over the next 5 years, almost double. At that rate in in 45-50 years everyone in India will be a software developer.
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Guess what... a lot of that is probably people on H1-B visas, who will very often work more hours for less pay. It's not that the number of American developers will grow by 25%, simply that the number of developers in the US will grow by 25%.
Well CS is not IT and trades / apprenticeship / te (Score:2)
Well CS is not IT and trades / apprenticeship / tech schools get over looked.
As well loads of fluff and filler classes.
To many people are going to collgle and colleges are turning out people with skills gaps.
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Could part of this be the cost of college here in the States?
I think the percentage of college students who major in a technical field such as CS or engineering has been decreasing.
Re:College Costs and Preceived Value (Score:4, Informative)
And most of them made horrible developers. There's basic bits of theory and knowledge that most (not all, but most) self taught and high school educated developers never learn. The move to requiring a CS degree wasn't due to degree inflation, it was to get more knowledgeable developers.
India Has More People Than USA! News @ 11! (Score:5, Insightful)
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Yes as for percentage by population the US would be more than double. Also it can't all be outsource they have to be developing something for their own 1.2 billion possible consumers.
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indian programmer domination ... (Score:1)
To be fair, it has been a pleasure to work with them, for them etc. I don't see any alternative to employing them. I don't want them to go away. But there is a cultural adjustment that I feel is necessary but
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Second, they are willing to work for less, so they can push down salaries; just look the consulting rates these days..
What rates are you observing these days?
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Recently, I've seen rates in the $50/hr to $60/hr range. But my 27 year-old friend has a full-time bayarea job that pays $180k so it makes no sense to take a $50/hr contract without benefits, vacation, etc.
The connection to 'Indian programmer' is that most of the recruiters I run into are indian and state strongly that a $10
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it has been a pleasure to work with them
Who is them? Are you talking about immigrants, H-1B's, or people in India? This discussion has everything to do with location and economics, and nothing to do with ethnicity.
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I've, however, noticed that they can form work teams/groups in which there are no non-indian members (or no non-indian lead developers). ... I've also noticed, in my conversations with them, that they feel that non-indian developers are not as smart as indian developers. ... When those India developers form a team/group, they can get to a state where they don't feel a non-indian developer is good enough to join them. ... I don't think the minority non-indian developer in majority indian group will not get the same opportunities as the indian members.
What you're describing is prejudice and discrimination, plain and simple. Were a white American man to even hint at doing something like that, he'd have his head handed to him (and deservedly so). I think such a standard of conduct should apply to everyone.
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I guess you haven't heard about the emphasis on "diversity" in hiring, the way that can play out day to day, and the prevalence of ageism in IT fields. Good luck with that.
As a US Programmer... (Score:2)
So they are are going to add 2-3 million more? (Score:1)
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And that's unique to India, how?
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And that's unique to India, how?
It's not, it's just much more prevalent in India because the culture there has not attached a negative social stigma to being a tech worker.
You get what you pay for... (Score:4, Informative)
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Err.. If YOU hire someone who cant perform a particular job, its YOUR fault, not the fault of the person who was hired
Quite true. The problem is, frequently the people doing the hiring don't check for competency, and the multi-layered outsourcing model has too many intermediaries who don't give a damn.
Then you as PM are stuck with a team you never met, who are just a bunch of poor dumb bastards who've been fucked over just as badly as you have.
Anecdote: On one project where I was PM, I insisted on conducting Skype interviews with the proposed programming team. I guess nobody was concerned, since I'm just an old neckbeard
Depressing wages further (Score:1)
Meanwhile, keep blaming lack of jobs to H1Bs.. (Score:1, Insightful)
At the same time, every single of them fails to realize that there isn't even a need for foreigners to be in America to take away their jobs.
There are plenty of countries with great universities, which are either free or where students don't have to pay with their life for tuition. India is one of the most extreme examples, but pla
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Re:Meanwhile, keep blaming lack of jobs to H1Bs.. (Score:5, Insightful)
Every time there is a bit of news about H1Bs or immigration on tech sites, most Americans display their usual xenophobia and blame immigrants for the lack of jobs in the US.
Dismissing legitimate economic concerns as "xenophobia" is either a false assumption on your part, or a common but cheap trick. Sorry, ain't buying it.
At the same time, every single of them fails to realize that there isn't even a need for foreigners to be in America to take away their jobs.
True only to a certain extent. Being on-site, meeting face-to-face, and understanding more about a customer and a culture so that you can be more than a code monkey, are still useful.
The quantity over quality argument is also moot, foreigners not only keep improving but their low cost allows them to make mistakes while still being more affordable than Americans.
Of course "their low cost allows them to make mistakes while still being more affordable than Americans". It's the very fact that they do make so many mistakes that's part of why they're so affordable! If what you meant was that some people will always buy cheap crap, then that's an obvious truism. Whether or not that's penny wise and pound foolish is another story.
As for "foreigners not only keep improving", or more accurately the quality of foreign sourced work keeps improving, I've found just the opposite to be true. I don't know why, or even why the foreign sourced work is often of such poor quality, and I have little interest in debating theories about why. What I do know is that it's true.
would rather to have that people live, contribute and keep most the industry in your country
No, not if it means sacrificing my job for that. Save the "it's good for the country as a whole" garbage for the congressional hearings. Bonus points for honesty if you say "for the good of the American economy we must screw American programmers, IT people and engineers". Really, go ahead and say it, because it won't matter. The hearings are a formality and congress will just vote however the people that bribe them want congress to vote.
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The deeper question is "Why is it OK for the rest of the world to be xenophobic when the same is disallowed for the Anglosphere?" There has been a war on the white male since the signing of Hart Celler by LBJ in 1965.
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You can't handle the truth...because the truth is RACIST!
Re:Meanwhile, keep blaming lack of jobs to H1Bs.. (Score:5, Insightful)
There has been a war on the white male since the signing of Hart Celler by LBJ in 1965.
As a white American man who has been around since the civil rights era, I must say I've never noticed that. If they're waging war against me, they're sure doing a lousy job.
The deeper question is "Why is it OK for the rest of the world to be xenophobic when the same is disallowed for the Anglosphere?"
There is no such deeper question because xenophobia, by or against whomever, has nothing to do with this subject. It's about economics. It's the H-1B proponents who frame it as a xenophobia issue, and thus try to distract from what's really at stake.
BTW, it's not clear how excessive guest workers in a particular field targets white males. It targets Americans in the 99%. Last time I checked though, not all Americans are white, and they're not all male. Get your categories straight.
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"There is no such deeper question because xenophobia, by or against whomever, has nothing to do with this subject. It's about economics. It's the H-1B proponents who frame it as a xenophobia issue, and thus try to distract from what's really at stake."
I disagree. I did a long analysis on that before (I'm non-US and have no interest in moving to the US so was able to approach the issue objectively) and basically if anything H1-B hires are increasing US salaries because H1-B highers are more often than not ge
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There has been a war on the white male since the signing of Hart Celler by LBJ in 1965
Not to go offtopic, but the southern cone (Chile, Uruguay, Argentina), and East Europe are mostly white.. and huge outsourcer for American and European jobs.
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True only to a certain extent. Being on-site, meeting face-to-face, and understanding more about a customer and a culture so that you can be more than a code monkey, are still useful.
I'm sorry, but it doesn't work that way. Companies don't offshore the code monkeys, they offshore entire experienced teams, including their leadership and creative talent. As I said, India is an extreme, but other locations like South America and Eatern Europe are much more in tune culturally, or time-zone wise.
Of course "their low cost allows them to make mistakes while still being more affordable than Americans". It's the very fact that they do make so many mistakes that's part of why they're so affordable! If what you meant was that some people will always buy cheap crap, then that's an obvious truism.
The only truism here is that you don't have a single clue about how the outsourcing industry works. I was trying to explain that people outside learns and becomes really good, yet still much more aff
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Companies don't offshore the code monkeys, they offshore entire experienced teams, including their leadership and creative talent.
I hear that claimed, but from what I've seen delivered it's hard to believe it's true. Regardless, it doesn't completely eliminate the need for, as I said, "on-site, meeting face-to-face, and understanding more about a customer". If it did then you wouldn't see vast numbers of people working, for example, for Infosys in the US (mostly H-1B, B-1 and L-1 of course).
India is an extreme, but other locations like South America and Eatern Europe are much more in tune culturally, or time-zone wise.
The amount of outsourcing to India is vastly greater than to South America or Eastern Europe.
I was trying to explain that people outside learns and becomes really good
Try harder next time. I was making fun of the fact th
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Calling an argument xenophobic does not dismiss it. Rather it is an assertion that one (or more) of your premises is an kneejerk emotional fear response.
Some people think those are valid, apparently.
Developers? Yeah. Okay. (Score:5, Insightful)
Sorry, the educational system over there is little more than a diploma mill.
The quality of developers over there is somewhere between "bad" and "not qualified to sell slurpees".
Yes, as with any group, there's always the exceptions. A few, here and there, with a knack for doing good, solid work.
But that's just what they are. Exceptions.
Anyone can play baseball/football/soccer/hockey.
A much smaller contingent of the population do it well.
An even smaller contingent of that sub-population do it well enough to warrant getting paid to do it.
Not trying to pile on.. (Score:4, Interesting)
Many Indian developers seem to me to lack some critical thinking skills when it comes to working on projects. Perhaps it's a cultural issue that needs to be worked out, but it's like they know how to code.. but there is no thinking going on besides blindly following a written requirement without asking questions or trying to get clarity on something that isn't clear. Instead they code code and code until they are 'done' only to have wasted time coding something that doesn't actually meet the requirement because they didn't ask questions.
But then again.. I am dealing with developers who aren't Indian.. and well they suck too.. but I can't tell if it's their incompetence, their project manager's or just their whole company.
Re:Not trying to pile on.. (Score:5, Interesting)
1) When I was in India, I had to take a history class. I love history. I wrote a paper in an exam, and I had not only put in the answer as I saw it, but also my personal observations and some speculations. I didn't do well in those answers because tehy weren't exactly the answer in the group. Since the person grading itself probably doesn't more than the group, how do you grade it?
2) I took a course in American history. I wrote with great gusto, exactly same mentality. I not only got one of the top scores in the class, but I had a lot of comments regarding the answer. They loved my answers and my grasp for history. People recognize when you like or love a subject and will grade accordingly.
You can also see this mentality in action when you talk with Indian developers. They will want only enough information to get the job done and specifically to that task. They will do nothing more, and might even try to do less. If you try to provide a concept or something it is met with impatience. If the Indian system of education were to change to alllow students to challenge their teachers then it would be a better educational system. Teachers must actually know the subject they are teaching.
Now there is nothing cultural about this. What's happened is that the asian custom of respecting your elders takes precedence over learning. But in the holy books there is nothing like that. Veda Vyasa was challenged by his students or even by Lord Ganesha as well. There is nothing wrong with questioning and Hinduism always shows devotee questioning the Lord. So, it's something stupid that has been warped.
Programmers, not Developers (Score:4, Informative)
I'm not saying India doesn't have any developers, but I have seen a lot of programming defined as copying and pasting the code of someone else and testing that it "works as required". I couldn't understand why the JavaScript countdown timer we were supplied by an Indian company was written in Spanish until I caught on to how they "fulfilled" their contract obligations. I'm sure a lot of that goes on in every country with programmers (and developers). My point here is that we should be careful how we define developer vs programmer (not to mention the ongoing debates regarding the phrase "software engineer").
If their headhunters are any measure (Score:1)
when will I buy my first Indian killer app? (Score:2)
Well sure... (Score:1)
Is it me or... (Score:2)
are half of these posts thinly veiled racism? I used to get annoyed when people made broad statements that my countrymen are xenophobic, but if that's the persona we use online maybe we deserve the moniker.
Re:Is it me or... (Score:4, Insightful)
1) Bids and proposals are submitted to American client 2) Middle management of said American client decides to go with lowest bidder (typically from India) 3) Lowest bidder can't satisfy contract due to incompetence 4) 1 year later, project still can't satisfy requirements. 5) American client back peddles to find American developers to fix and complete project 6) American developers review the code... it's a steaming pile of shit. 7) If American developers have sense, they decline the project and quote the client for the whole project
Now, if you're working in-house, the same thing happens except that you can't politely decline the project and are forced to deliver on a steaming pile of shit and you have to have your name attached to garbage.
It's not racism. Developers are objective; if it were good, quality code there wouldn't be any pushback or resentment.
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I'm developer. I can tell you that developers are not objective about their own egos.
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I'm a developer too. I agree the young developers have ego issues. But there's an ocean's difference between ego and racism. The resentment I addressed is not racially influence; it's also compounded by the current state of corporate affairs. When someone is not valued for their work, something internally happens. Ego is one thing, it can easily be put into check; but when a developer is not valued nor capable of being assessed, then that egotistical pushback becomes something real and tangible. It becomes
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Yes, ego is not racism. That comment was only to respond to "Developers are objective". Overgeneralization and stereotyping might be a nicer way to describe open racism. I work with plenty of experienced developers who have a confidence in thier abilities that is not warranted from the quality of their work or from their [lack of] professionalism on the job.
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There is a truth in what you're saying. When it comes to self, I have seen many developers unable to be objective oriented or have a self-corrective mechanism when it comes to relating to the "real" world. From my observations, their social mechanisms were solidified prematurely. What was once their escapism became their trade; in some ways they never had a chance to grow.
I believe in this industry we need more humility. I think teaching developers the defensive modes of business (e.g. writing proposals, pr
A big so what... (Score:1)
India's developers are largely of poor quality (Score:3)
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India today is more akin to Japan in 1945 than Japan in 1975. I've worked with a dozens of Indian developers when some shops in India reported to me. Only a few were worth their salt. With few exceptions those were western trained developers that were forced to go back to India by family obligations. Of the good ones, one was a woman who I think was later fired for being a woman (after I left) and the other never got the training he needed but was boosted to Sr. Dev prematurely. On the other hand, great dev
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h1b visas (Score:4, Insightful)
So, will they quit manipulating their money? (Score:2)
This has gotten old.
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Secondly, India exports far more to USA, than USA exports to India. [thehindubusinessline.com] And that has been going on for the last decade. As such, your money should be strengthening against the dollar, not getting weaker. Yet, you can see that that with that ithe rupee against the yuan has gone in the right direction (i.e. when China imports more into your nation, the yuan should strengthen, [google.com]
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Yes, outsourcing will kill your jobs. Here's why: (Score:4, Insightful)
I reside in South America. The big American companies opened up shop here a long, long time ago. IBM, Microsoft, Oracle, Citrix, Cisco, Capgemini, KPMG, etc. Every single of them is here and own several skyscrapers. There is a good education level here and university is often free or cheap, so there is a large pool of potential hires. By the time most americans heard about outsourcing, there was already a huge outsourcing industry in place here.
They started by bringing managers from other regions with experience and hire entire local teams. The teams are cheaper to hire, (or the governments offer tax exceptions in exchange of know how transfer) here are trained and put to work. The work done is pretty much the same that they do at the headquarters, except outsourcing allows them to scale. Sometimes they work for other local clients, sometimes they work for American clients. A plane ticket is cheap anyway.
Teams started with little experience, and are allowed to do a few mistakes, but quickly gained experience and become competitive with other regions.
Once the team is experienced enough, the leaders are sent to new, nearby regions to start over while the company expands. It's the same in Asia, probably an order of magnitude worse.
So, for the companies, this is really profitable of course. For the American jobs this is devastating, but you guys can't see what you don't know, and keep believing your lack of jobs is due to the tiny amount of foreigners on H1B. H1Bs don't even compare! Outsourcing worldwide is in the order of millions while H1Bs are in the order of thousands.
So, yes, It's true. To all Americans reading this, I'm out there and I see every day how outsourcing steals your jobs much more dramatically than immigrants, but you are free to believe your own self-comforting lies, and keep thinking that outsourcing was just about hiring a bunch of retarded indians that are so stupid that it's impossible they will do code right, so your jobs must be safe because at this point everyone in the industry must have realized how retarded foreigners are.
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Number? Sure. Quality? Maybe. Comprehensibility... (Score:2)
...doubtful.
No one knows anything...Americans and Indians... (Score:2)
The antagonism US developers/engineers show towards Indians should STOP. Period. At some level we are all brothers. The Indian H1Bs who got Green Cards and settled in US - thinking that will be better future - will be seriously unhappy when they know after they hit
Life of an Indian Programmer. (Score:1)
I am an Indian Programmer/developer/IT guy. I can contribute my story and hope its relevant. The beginning of my career is typical. I am bachelors in Electrical Engineering. I always 'liked' electricity. I did not have a computer till I was 20 something. I did have lots of broken electronics though and used to make little hobby circuits. I did not design the circuits but copied them from magazines/books. I kind of understood why they worked but not really. I always wanted to 'get it'. My questions which we
Also! 1,000,000,000 333,000,000 !!! (Score:2)
I have the proof written down here on an envelop , let me see if I can find it now...
Find another career: International exploiter (Score:2)
Re:How was this data calculated? (Score:5, Funny)
They don't know either, the survey was outsourced to India.
Suspicious! (was:How was this data calculated?) (Score:3)
Not too long ago The Economist noted the lack of new graduates in India to take up the development jobs the outsourcing companies had on offer. Comments from an individual outsourcer seemed to support that...
I'd take this one with a mine of salt, and speculate that by "developer" they mean "someone who wants to be a developer", without consideration of whether they have experience or training.
--dave
Re: (Score:2)
Not too long ago The Economist noted the lack of new graduates in India to take up the development jobs the outsourcing companies had on offer. Comments from an individual outsourcer seemed to support that...
I'd take this one with a mine of salt, and speculate that by "developer" they mean "someone who wants to be a developer", without consideration of whether they have experience or training.
--dave
It doesn't help much to have a population of 1 billion people if 90% of them are subsistence farmers with caste and class that make it difficult or even impossible to even get into college.
It's probably not quite that bad, and upward mobility in India has, I think, improved a lot these days - in part, no doubt to the fact that a lot of people have expanded into computer technology.
Nevertheless, comparing raw population figures or projected population growth between the US and India is not something I'd reco
Re:It's all relative (Score:5, Insightful)
That's exactly what the people of Detroit said about Japanese car manufacturers way back in the 1970s.
Re:It's all relative (Score:4, Interesting)
That's exactly what the people of Detroit said about Japanese car manufacturers way back in the 1970s.
No, it isn't. What American car manufacturers said (actually more in the 60's and than 70's) is that the Japanese and VW imports were small low-powered cars that would only appeal to a small (and not very profitable) segment of the American market. They generally did not disparage the design or manufacture, just that they wouldn't appeal to many Americans (toy cars). By the mid to late 70's that was obviously nonsense, with the Japanese market share increasing and the Japanese going up-market. The increasing price of gas in the 70's also made small cars much more attractive.
Re: (Score:2)
We are cheap labor just like 18th century's Chinese railroad worker ..
Nonsense. At least railroad construction can't be outsourced.
Re: (Score:2)
Maybe you missed some history. Cheap foreign labor was brought in for railroad construction before. It could be done again. Nothing says that they either have to be citizens, or remain in the country, they could be admitted on guest worker visas. That is close enough to not only out-sourcing, but off-shoring, that it hardly matters.
Transcontinental Railroad Recruits Chinese Laborers [pbslearningmedia.org]
Re: (Score:2)
Maybe you missed some history.
Maybe you missed the joke.
Re: (Score:2)
No, I've been reading your posts. Many of them are jokes, just not the funny kind.