A Bechdel Test For Programmers? 522
Nerval's Lobster writes In order for a movie or television show to pass the Bechdel Test (named after cartoonist and MacArthur genius Alison Bechdel), it must feature two female characters, have those two characters talk to one another, and have those characters talk to one another about something other than a man. A lot of movies and shows don't pass. How would programming culture fare if subjected to a similar test? One tech firm, 18F, decided to find out after seeing a tweet from Laurie Voss, CTO of npm, which explained the parameters of a modified Bechdel Test. According to Voss, a project that passes the test must feature at least one function written by a woman developer, that calls a function written by another woman developer. 'The conversation started with us quickly listing the projects that passed the Bechdel coding test, but then shifted after one of our devs then raised a good point,' read 18F's blog posting on the experiment. 'She said some of our projects had lots of female devs, but did not pass the test as defined.' For example, some custom languages don't have functions, which means a project built using those languages would fail even if written by women. Nonetheless, both startups and larger companies could find the modified Bechdel Test a useful tool for opening up a discussion about gender balance within engineering and development teams.
Totally agree with Bechdel (Score:5, Funny)
My favorite porn always passes the Bechdel Test.
Re:Totally agree with Bechdel (Score:5, Insightful)
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It is only pervs who consider images of unclothed women degrading.
Not true. A lot of religious fundamentalists also consider imag...oh. Uh, yeah...that's right...good point.
Re:Totally agree with Bechdel (Score:5, Insightful)
Or, it's just a joke.
By the way, I like to have sex with women because I LIKE IT. Not because I want to objectify women. Not because women are some subclass species that must be subordinate to my every whim. Because it's in my nature to want sex with females of my species. The fact that you feel this is wrong in some way just speaks to how out-of-touch you are with reality.
Re: classic example? (Score:3)
Re:classic example? (Score:4, Insightful)
"The objectifier treats the object as something whose experience and feelings (if any) need not be taken into account" -- check
Your experience of sex must be very different from mine. A very important part to me is that the woman enjoys it too.
The other parts well, are very general.
"The objectifier treats the object as a tool of his or her purposes"
Arguably you do pretty much everything for your own purposes, even making someone else happy. You do it because you experience pleasure from there happiness.
"The objectifier treats the object as interchangeable (a) with other objects of the same type..."
If someone you want to have sex with refuses, what are you supposed to do? Not have sex ever again because no other man/woman will do? If you get no longer want to have sex with someone clearly they are not interchangeable since the old person will not do.
Re:Totally agree with Bechdel (Score:5, Insightful)
Kinda sad this got modded up so quickly. it seems a kneejerk putdown.
It was a joke. Which is all this idiotic topic deserves. The Bechdel test makes some (although not much) sense for a movie, where the characters and dialog are the whole point. But for a software project? Why should I care about the gender of who wrote the software I am using? Why should I care about whose function calls another function written by whoever?
How many garbage trucks, driven by women, pick up trash cans that were put on the curb by a woman? My suspicion is the percentage is very low. Is Obama doing anything about that?
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The widespread failure of the test confirms that movies about women are boring box-office losers. You might think that the 51% of the population that is women might be interested in paying to see such movies, but apparently not.
Re:Totally agree with Bechdel (Score:5, Insightful)
That is the crux of the problem, that you do not care.
Absolute nonsense. No programmer I know gives the slightest damn who wrote a function they use. They just want it to work. And that's the proper way to look at it.
Insisting that a program include functions written by women that access other functions written by women is by definition sexist. The opposite of sexism isn't more sexism in the opposite direction... it's truly not caring.
You don't fight discrimination by institutionalizing discrimination. It hasn't worked, and it doesn't work. You fight discrimination by eliminating its consideration.
I no more care whether a software tool I use was written by a woman or a man than I care whether a bolt or a piece of material used in a weekend project was made by a woman or a man. It just has to work. Who made it is completely irrelevant... and should be.
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Seems a stupid test on just its premise alone.
I don't get why anything would ever need to pass such a test or why anyone would care?
Here's MY test (Score:5, Insightful)
If you can substitute the term "white male" into your premise and suddenly find it offensive, then was actually racist/sexist all along.
"a project that passes the test must feature at least one function written by a white male developer, that calls a function written by another white male developer. "
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So... does that offend you? Why?
Re:Here's MY test (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:Here's MY test (Score:5, Interesting)
If you can substitute the term "white male" into your premise and suddenly find it offensive, then was actually racist/sexist all along.
"a project that passes the test must feature at least one function written by a white male developer, that calls a function written by another white male developer. "
i'm a white male and most of my projects don't pass. It's a joke i know, but it's a good metric in a way. Really, joking aside, to pass, a project should feature at least one function written by a developer that calls a function written by another developer. i'm aware that sadly, I don't work as well with others as i should. I often reinvent the wheel and isolate my codebases. From what i've seen, this is common.
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It should also be noted that in media, the number of projects that fail the reverse is negligible, while the former is extremely common, even in content that passes the first.. Thus the inverse is useful in demonstrating just how minimal the requirement should be and how unidirectionally it tends to fail.
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The inverse would be an illegal test. Some classes of people are protected from discrimination, others are not.
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...and if we lived in a world where it was ever a question whether 99.9% of projects would pass your version of that test, you might have a point. In that world, the "white male" version would, for whatever other faults it has, at least be trying to provide a metric for measuring integration of a marginalized group. But as that is not the world in which we live, your version of the test is pointless at best, and offensive at worst not because it is inherently so, but because in the real world it can only se
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Since when was I talking about race rather than gender in the statement to which you're responding?
Re: Here's MY test (Score:4, Insightful)
You just unintentionally illustrated the entire point of the Bechdel test - how many team software projects pass your version of the test? Nearly all of them, right? The bechdel "test" is meant to illustrate how low the bar is, and how many movies/projects still fail it.
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The bechdel "test" is meant to illustrate how low the bar is, and how many movies/projects still fail it.
I think the point isn't whether some movie or coding project passes or fails this test, but that the test is truly meaningless.
If movie producers want to make movies with two women who talk to each other about something other than men, they are free to do so. Whether it will be a success depends on what they talk about. I think any movie that focuses on two people talking is going to be boring so I wouldn't choose to watch it, no matter whether it was two women or two men. Or one of each. I mean, I found
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I haven't seen them, but both Sex and the City & Sex and the City 2 pass the Bechdel test - one commenter indicates that the first one does not pass the reverse-Bechdel test:
http://bechdeltest.com/view/74... [bechdeltest.com]
http://bechdeltest.com/view/83... [bechdeltest.com]
Re:Here's MY test (Score:5, Interesting)
Sigh.
It is sad how many people don't get your point. It isn't that anyone is expecting much software to fail your test, it is that the test itself is foul. The original test.
Perhaps subtlety is no longer called for. Run the whole article through the translator [menkampf.com].
I'm about fucking done with the SJW invasion of slashdot. Is it possible to take the site back?
Re:Here's MY test (Score:4, Insightful)
Woman are actually the majority in many countries. Including the united states.
http://www.census.gov/prod/cen... [census.gov]
Minority does not mean what you THINK it means. What you mean is 'disadvantaged'.
Re:Here's MY test (Score:4, Interesting)
That's actually a more interesting fact than you might think. Males are actually more likely at birth, and outnumber females until the age of 30 or so. But in the > 30 demographic females are in the majority, and that majority increases with age. Why? Because males die at a higher rate. Being male has a higher risk of death than being female.
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So you don't understand the difference between the words "minority" and "majority". Thanks for telling everyone.
I totes agree, that guy is a cock mongrel. How dare he imply that all people are created equal, like he's some Jefferson of misogyny. It's almost as bad as the patriarchy's so-called Charter of the United Nations and their oppressive hatespeech about equality and universal peace.
They should know by now that a minority is worth much more than a white guy. It's like duuh, of course you cannot be prejudiced against white cis males, what planet are you from? Stupid cis-scum the lot 'em, right?
(For reference, th
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But the IQ test has been decried time and again as favoring a specific cultural background over others and, the argument is, that it is inherently biased against non-whites.
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How about the IQ tests that were designed by non-white people ?
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Do you know why historically the Jews were so into banking? It's because stupid discriminatory laws of many
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Or, women don't give a shit about programming. Like I don't give a shit about interior design, or the latest clothing fashions, two areas dominated by Women.
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I once was complaining about the high cost of women's swim wear.
She called me out: 'Make one for me yourself'. I did, but I failed as a clothing designer. Who knew that women wouldn't wear a Bikini made of Saran wrap, dental floss and clear tape?
I'd have made the cover of 'Sports Illustrated' if I could only get women to wear it. I just feel it.
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Actually fashion is very egalitarian, with many male and female designers, as well as models. Interior design is hardly devoid of either gender either.
What makes you think women don't like programming? Is it because there are so few women doing it? That sounds like a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Re:Here's MY test (Score:5, Insightful)
What makes you think women don't like programming? Is it because there are so few women doing it? That sounds like a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Because most women have simply no interest in it. Otherwise, they could just buy a computer, and teach themselves how to do it. They could buy a hardware device, plug it into their computer, and discover that Linux has no support for it. They could decide to figure out how to write their own device driver, and become a kernel hacker. They may even start their own business. Many men have done exactly that, without anybody pushing them, or even supporting them.
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True, employers love self-taught programmers.
I wasn't talking about getting hired. I was talking about following a passion. That's where it all starts. And if you have a passion for programming, you'll find that the barrier to get started is very low. All it takes is a cheap computer and access to the internet. And you can even pick a neutral nickname/e-mail address, and start working on open source projects without anybody even being able to judge you on your gender.
The simple fact is that very few women are interested in that. Incidentally, very fe
Re:Here's MY test (Score:4, Insightful)
Have you considered that there may be societal pressures about what a woman is supposed to be, and a nerdy programmer doesn't fit that?
Yes, I have considered that. Have you considered that there's also societal pressures against men who are nerdy programmers ? Or against men wanting to become fashion designers ? Still, if you have a passion, you're not going to let society stop you.
Or try giving a young girl a lego set for her birthday and see what the other adults think.
I have a son and a daughter, and we had boxes of legos, cars, dolls, and various other toys all in the living room where both could play with anything they wanted. And from the beginning it was very clear that they had their own interests. Even if they were both playing with the legos, my son was always building cars and bridges with them. My daughter was building houses and people.
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Or try giving a young girl a lego set for her birthday and see what the other adults think.
I did that for my niece. My brother looked at me like I was Satan incarnate, and instantly developed a psychosomatic limp...
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Random Male Programmer: I was told to go to college after I graduated, but I didn't know what I wanted to do. I figured programming would be easy money, so here I am. What do you mean my algorithm is O(n^3) and doesn't validate user input? How would a user give wrong input? I only give valid options in the HTML drop-down.
Yeah, get rid of th
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You do understand women think that way too, right?
Re:Here's MY test (Score:5, Insightful)
Why on earth would you find this offensive if you made the swap? Because you're a white male and it would highlight how virtually no software fails the white male test, but a huge amount fails the female test?
Why on Earth is it relevant if a software project passes the test? Does it make the code better?
This is a completely made up non-issue. Should we start rabblerousing about the white guy Bechdel test in the NBA? What about the unfairness of native English speaking programmers in Russia? Should we start a test for them? No, because it's fucking stupid, and contributes 0 to anything other than the wallet of those who get "offended" about "representation" as a profession.
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Congratulations, you've missed the point!
It wasn't easy, I'm sure, but you've done it. You even managed some outrage. It's rather impressive, really.
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50% of every team needs to be people who miss the point, otherwise it wouldn't be fair.
Re:Here's MY test (Score:5, Insightful)
> But in practice we have half the population who are capable of programming but who are severely underrepresented
That's a totally unsupported assumption.
It also ignores the question of DESIRE. It completely degrades half of the population by stripping them of any sort of free will at all.
That's the whole problem with these do-gooder crusades that fixate this kind of "imbalance" while ignoring the the imbalances in the skilled trades or nursing.
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No one is asking whole populations to change. In particular, no one is asking self entitled while male programmers to stop programming, if that is indeed what they're so scared of that causes them to panic whenever the subject comes up.
To be honest, it's the "for" gang that have been getting more strident and abusive; I expect that this is because too many people are posting actual statistics and asking the activist camp to provide some sort of evidence for their assertions. I ask for evidence all the time and never get any, but the minute you do you get labelled as a misogynistic, scared, white male. I'm not even a white male, but it seems that asking for evidence is the ultimate insult to a certain group of people.
Re:Here's MY test (Score:5, Informative)
Why on earth would you find this offensive if you made the swap?
I tell you what. Call a meeting with all of your minority and women programmers and ask them if they would find a requirement that all future code "must feature at least one function written by a white male developer, that calls a function written by another white male developer" offensive. If they say "No, it's fine, we're cool with it," then I'll concede the point.
The dumbest thing (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:The dumbest thing (Score:5, Insightful)
This is the kind of thing that discourages women in traditionally male-dominated fields. Nobody cares if a programmer is a man or a woman if they can write good code. But when a team member starts disrupting the work culture with irrelevant things like making things a man vs. woman contest, they're no longer going to be welcome regardless of their sex.
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Even if programming was a perfect meritocracy that ignores the two main reasons why there are so few female programmers in the workforce.
1. A lot of hiring is done through networking, and because the guys in the industry tend to network with other guys it limits the number of female candidates available to them. It's bad for the company as they don't get to pick from the widest possible pool of talent, but it's cheap and easy so it happens a lot.
2. When the work culture is framing any effort to even examine
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And that's the thing... Egalitarian and fair are neither when one group has been systematically discouraged for (well, forever).
You actually need to go with stats then to redress the issue. And the stats don't actually lie (much).
You don't like their stats? Get your own. Figure out how many % of women are actually interested in programming vs. anecdotal evidence that "women don't want to do STEM" or "networking is biased". There are other places where you could gather appropriate statistics and bolster your
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The functions written in software is not a 'society facing' item. I would really like to see this misogyny is everywhere groupthink to stop.
Author vs. content (Score:5, Interesting)
This even stupider, because the original "Bechdel Test" is about the *content* of the movie.
i.e.: the Alien movie discussed in Bechdel's comics happens to have been written and directed by guys. But none the less, it depicted strong female caracters, who actually have motivations, goals, etc. of their own.
the female *characters* of the movie aren't passive decorations, they are not only here to observe (or obsess about) the guys, they have a life of they own, their actions are here to move the plot forward.
counter exemple: you can probably find tons of romantic film or novels, written by author which happen to be female, but completely fail the test as their female protagonists are more or less only here for the sole purpose of falling in love with male caracters.
This "Programmer's test" is stupid because it only considers the *author* of code.
An author should be judged solely based on the quality of the work produced, no matter what sets of reproductive organs the author happens to be equipped with.
What should be judged in theory, is the depiction of gender role in the produced work. As code is sexless, there is no point in that. It doesn't depict roles or creates models for future generation, in merely gives instruction to hardware.
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The Bechdel test is far from perfect, but it's an interesting test to apply to movies that have no real reason not to pass it. It's supposed to make you think. It's supposed to make you question why not just women but lots of other groups often get stereotyped or sidelined in films, or why directors don't think that the more central characters can be female, or if they even considered it.
Re:The dumbest thing (Score:5, Insightful)
Seriously, this is the dumbest thing ever. Just make the code work. I don't care at all if women wrote it. There are so many issues that actually matter, and this isn't one of them.
Moreover, it's probably sexist. We have established that there is a gender imbalance issue in the workplace. If the requirement is that two women are in close collusion on the project, that's statistically less likely than two men (which may number 5:1 in some fields, including mine). The mathematical proof is left to the reader, but select 2 from N where N is a collection of one of three genders with a skewed distribution: Male, Female & No Interaction where No Interaction defines tasks that are purely self-contained and represents the greatest part of the distribution. The way to pass this test then is to force your women to work together and isolate them, functionally, from the men. The odds of those two interacting increases dramatically (but as much of our work is solitary, it's not a definite). To get definite interaction you need to have a woman work on the user facing portions of the code (i.e. "outside" the engine) and another who is a user. Either way this doesn't strike me as good for anybody, and certainly doesn't seem very equal opportunity/diverse/ideal or even rational.
It has to be much, much worse on the kinds of software projects I see a lot these days. Someone buys/acquires some code written elsewhere by persons gender unknown but almost certainly male (more so as the software approaches the OS/hardware level). You can have an entire company of women tying their code into this codebase and they may never write a function for each other, each tackling this big hairball independently for her own module. They may not have cause to interact, and your all-woman company fails the test.
Bad idea. In any event I don't think it solves any issues I see affecting women in the workplace in a helpful way, it just seems to be more distracting data-points leading away from the cause of the actual problem that should be examined.
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The hitherto-undiscovered reason was discovered a long time ago. It's just that you radfems refuse to listen to it because it goes against your already strongly held prejudices. It's simple: When women have the freedom to choose all else being equal, they choose differently to men.
Just once, it would be fucking great if one of these radfem retards started a business that was
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Really, who could blame women for NOT wanting to be in a profession populated by typical [goodinc.com] male [wordpress.com] programmers? [wordpress.com]
Re: The dumbest thing (Score:2)
It's not about "not talking about men/women at all," it's "having at least one conversation that isn't about men."
The point of the test is to say "are there women who exist outside of props for the men?"
How many movies fail the dude bechdel test? How many fail the regular one?
I should set up a script... (Score:3)
discussion (Score:4, Insightful)
And what exactly is it you want to "discuss"? Are you entering this "discussion" being open to the idea that your ideas about "gender balance" are wrong? Or are you just trying to hit other people over the head with your particular views?
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Stupid metrics are bad because they can be gamed. This is a stupid metric.
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You mean like receptionists, secretaries, nurses, day care attendants, elementary school teachers, and cosmetologists?
"Defensiveness" and "blame" imply that there is anything wrong. I don't believe there is anything wrong.
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Do we get to feel good about our project and pat ourselves on the back for being progressive after passing this test even though it's utterly meaningless?
Any industry which does not appeal to ~half of its prospective workers might want to spend a bit of time trying to figure out why, instead of getting all defensive and blaming everyone and everything else for the issue.
Why? The logging
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so that's your argument - programming is analogous to sports, that women are inferior coders?
Pretty much, yes.
because their brains aren't as strong as men's brains?
'Strong' is the wrong adjective. I would say that male and female brains are optimized for different functions, just as their bodies are. But for some reason, it's okay to talk about the different optimization in the physical body, whereas it is a taboo to discuss differences in the brain.
This is stupid (Score:3, Insightful)
The Bechdel Test is about female characters. It depends on the story taking their characters and lives seriously.
This stupid thing is nothing like that. It totally trivializes the real gender inequalities that still exist.
Code has no gender.
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Now
Someone doesn't undestand the Bechtel test. (Score:5, Insightful)
It's about people misrepresenting the world as lacking interesting women with something on their mind besides men.
If all you do is insist on two functions, each written by another women calling each other, you have made a mochery of the test.
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Checking whether two functions coded by different women interact is a really poor proxy for the lack of gender issues at a firm. It would comically easy to game, and I can't see what it offers that simply looking at the proportion of women employed in coding roles doesn't do
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I have yet to meet a woman who doesn't love to talk about relationships with other women. Hers, her friends, a celebrity, whatever. It's by far the most popular subject. And while men may not talk about relationships per se, we do talk about women. A lot. In fact, there's a convincing argument to be made that everything we do is in the pursuit of securing or keeping a mate, so it's not so strange that we would talk about it, male or female. (Replace opposite sex with same sex as applicable -- this is
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Exactly. The Bechdel test is about the broader misrepresentation of women in media more so than it is about gender imbalance. It makes little sense to apply it in a work environment, simply because we're already dealing with reality there, meaning that women can represent themselves how they choose.
The project I'm currently on has two full-time employees working on it, both male. We routinely call functions written by one of the original devs on the project who was a woman and was responsible for much of th
Re: Someone doesn't undestand the Bechtel test. (Score:3)
The room passes, they talk about Claudette's breast cancer.
Re: Someone doesn't undestand the Bechtel test. (Score:2)
Again, the test only requires a singular conversation that's not about men. They can talk about men for the other 90% of the movie if they want.
What are they trying to show? (Score:4, Insightful)
So what ae they testing for here? Are they saying that female developers are just macguffins?
18F is not a tech firm - it's the government (Score:2, Informative)
18F is not a tech firm. It's a technology program at the General Services Administration of the Federal Government. https://18f.gsa.gov/
Wow... (Score:2)
And I thought it couldn't get any more useless and idiotic than the original Bechdel test!
Learning something new every day!
Artificial and arbitrary to the extreme (Score:2)
.
I have to agree with the previous poster who said, "Seriously, this is the dumbest thing ever. Just make the code work."
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My reaction (Score:2)
in a nutshell [youtu.be]
Unexamined privilege escalation (Score:2)
Here's how foolish this nonsense is. Assume we have two classes, Woman, and Kitchen, which are written by different women. Passing the Bechdel test:
self.sandwich = [woman getSandwichFromKitchen:kitchen];
I learned something about myself writing that. Objective C really is as shitty as Java. I should stop oppressing Java programmers.
This test is impossible and pointless. (Score:2)
You don't need to come up with circuitous gimmicks to prove that there aren't a lot of women in tech. We know it. Everyone who has worked in this field knows it. Society knows it. The unknown
Re: This test is impossible and pointless. (Score:2)
Maybe you should fix your team, then.
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I imagine a pair of women... (Score:2)
...could make real names for themselves by writing, respectively:
Then every web page on Earth can pass the Programmer Bechdel Test just by consuming the web service.
However, I suspect that's not what the test is intended to accomplish.
Political Science, not Computer Science (Score:3)
Maybe code should be written by Political Science majors from now on. It's important that the right categories take credit.
Just a thought... (Score:2)
Nonetheless, both startups and larger companies could find the modified Bechdel Test a useful tool for opening up a discussion about gender balance within engineering and development teams.
Or you could just, you know, write good code and make that the thing that matters.
iNotRacist coming soon to slashdot (Score:2)
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This one is actually a great idea, BUT (Score:2)
HOWEV
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There IS a problem with the genders being unequally represented in the software industry. But aside from sexism, there's also nepotism, cronyism, and a culture that wants developers to be overqualified. As a result, MOST programmers work for themselves, if they program at all. Many give up. So, don't expect those who are in the same boat to grow a money tree and fix things. Instead, be the new software company that will do it right.
Counter-examples (Score:2)
The other way around (Score:2)
As always, it only goes one way... (Score:5, Interesting)
I teach computer science. No one will be surprised to hear that most of our students are men. This is a problem, at least, we are continually told that it is.
The news yesterday had a report on schools that train people to become small-animal veterinarians here in Switzerland. They happened to mention that 80% of the students are women. This is apparently fine; there is no outcry to find more male veterinary students.
My son works in professional child care, where women are something like 95% of the workforce. No one seems terribly concerned by this, even though the lack of male role models for young boys is arguably an actual, genuine problem.
Personally, I am very tired of articles like this. Why the continual one-way focus on women? Why can't we just let individuals be individuals, and do whatever they want? Ensure that there are no artificial barriers due to gender (or skin color, or hair color, or whatever), stop pushing people in directions they don't want to go, and just let people choose whatever career they want.
Gender segregation (Score:3, Funny)
Literally the best way to pass this test about gender imbalance is to segregate genders based on project. .... ....
I don't even....
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No, but you're spending your time on /. attacking an innocuous measure of how seriously female characters are taken in film so I imagine this is way down on the list of things you'll have to deal with to be able to say yes.
Re: superficial (Score:2)
Well, you know, as a woman sometimes it's nice to get a character that cares about something besides swooning for the male lead.
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That'd be rad.
Re: This is why female programmers can't get a job (Score:2)
No wonder dudes refuse to see sexism, if they refuse to even look for it.