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Programming IT Technology

Microsoft to Take on Java Again With J# 49

Posted by timothy from the honing-or-phoney dept.
CptnKirk writes: "Many people liked Visual J++ as an IDE. The settlement with Sun, following it's Java suit, pretty much stopped this development. Apparently Microsoft is back at it again, with another attempt to bring Java development back to the Windows platform. J# (Jay Sharp), will be part of Visual Studio .Net, and provides "an implementation of the Sun Java spec". It however has IMHO some very severe limitations. It's not actually Java(TM) compliant, doesn't product bytecode, or read Java raw bytecode, or run in a VM. It also doesn't support Java runtime features past 1.1.4. The InfoWorld article is here. As a Java developer, to me creating a product that is supposed to be some sort of Java tool that doesn't support any of Java's useful features or even latest language spec, doesn't cut mustard. I liked VJ++, it was a solid IDE and if it supported JDK 1.4 I'd be all for it. I wish Microsoft would just produce a good IDE, and not screw with the language."
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Microsoft to Take on Java Again With J# More

Microsoft to Take on Java Again With J#

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  • Download (Score:2, Informative)

    by VA Software ( 533136 )
    Microsoft's download is http://msdn.microsoft.com/visualj/jsharp/beta.asp [microsoft.com].

  • Why? (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Ardax ( 46430 )
    Why do this? Why bother coming out with a castrated, nearly unusable product that only supports an obsoleted version of the product that they're trying to kill? Especially when it's going to be competing for developer mindshare with the language that they really want to push to kill Java (C#, if you've been under a rock for the past year or so)?

    I mean, maybe MS is hoping that people will try to use it so that they get pissed off at Java and go with C#? Do they really think that developers, even Windows ones (-: j/k, I'm a Delphi guy myself), are too stupid to look up non-MS Java information? What do they think will happen when those developers realize that they're getting the shaft to try to push them away from Java?

    Anywho... Makes me wonder...

    • Re:Why? (Score:3, Interesting)

      by CptnKirk ( 109622 )
      You've got me. This seems a lot like GCJ, only dumber.

      Actually I think their reason is this. Microsoft would like to treat Java as a programming language, nothing more. Sun would like Java to be a platform, including language, VM, cross OS platform compatability and so on. I assume that if Microsoft were to implement various Java 2 features they'd have to comply to the Sun JCK, which they of course do not want to do. If you treat Java as a language you can add to the language and aren't bound to what Sun thinks Java2D (used in JFC) should look like.

      I think that Microsoft could implement the platform if they felt like it, but this doesn't gain them anything. By adopting what they consider to be the language itself, they can use this to beat the platform which Sun has built.

      I personally don't think this will happen, but I think this is what Microsoft is after.

      • Maby Microsoft just figures if they put out yet another lame Java implimentation, they'll be able to say "We support Java, why would we try replacing it?".

    • Re:Why? (Score:3, Interesting)

      by babbage ( 61057 )
      Why do this?

      Easy -- developers want to be able to code in Java, but Microsoft is legally forbidden to develop a newer, noncompliant version of the language environment due to their settlement with Sun a few months ago. Result?

      "You want Java syntax, fine, our .NET framework can do that, and you'll even get to take advantage of all the benefits .NET has to offer."

      "Yeah, but what about the JVM? Why not keep up with the spec? Java is past 2.0 now, and you're trying to get me to use 1.1.x..."
      "Eh? Pardon me? Didn't quite catch that, sonny." *wink*

      If MS can't ship a full fledged version of Java, I don't think trying to support the syntax (or a crippled version of it) is such a bad idea on their part. Developers with Java experience will be able to quickly get up to speed with .NET, and can then be encouraged to migrate over to C#. It's not good for Sun, but then hey that's not MS's job.

      They didn't get to be the borg by being morons, guys...

    • I've been playing around with J# for a little while now (http://msdn.microsoft.com/visualj/jsharp/beta.asp ) and it seems a capable development tool. It's absolutely true that it doesn't generate JVM bytecode, nor does it support Java 2 features. But that's not Microsoft playing with the standards, as far as I can see - more due to the terms of their settlement with Sun.

      The good thing about J# is that it allows Java developers to target yet another platform (.NET) without needing to throw away all the existing code. Use it, or ignore it - it's up to you.
  • to allow any developper to work on their .Net framework. The .Net and C# are really close to each other.

    But what they did, IMHO, is they allow people to use another SYNTAX to code in the .NET framework. You can use Cobol if you want to, does Cobol is object orienter? No? But the .Net will support they cobol syntax and create object under the hood somehow.

    So they are not supporting Java, but they are supporting the Java like syntax.

    Pat

  • We shall see (Score:3, Insightful)

    by CactusHack ( 534393 ) on Monday November 05, 2001 @11:11PM (#2526179)
    So much speculation and nothing has been proven yet. The best way to cut through this hype is to wait and let the .NET platform (along with all the #'s) prove itself...if it can. When I see a full scale application running on Unix, I'll take it seriously. I'm still waiting to see an enterprise scaled (stable!) application using COM, MTS, or COM+. For the time being, I can't see J# making much of an impact. If someone is going to write an application using Java syntax, why would they not gear it for the proven JVM rather than something that has done nothing and could fall to the same fate as J++? I agree MS can make quality IDEs. I personally find Vi to be the most efficient place to write code, but can see how a good IDE would go far.
    • Well, wait no longer: I will only give examples of those which I have seen first hand.

      Ford Motor company has standardized on Java and runs many high profile applications for it's business.

      Medtronic runs almost it's entire IT infrastructure using Java technology along with Weblogic application server. Several internal applications serve an average of 23,000 users per day.

      Dell computer has written many of it's business applications using the Java, not to mention after trying very hard to write enterprise applications using Microsoft technologies and finally opting for a more stable and more robust Java platform.

    • The "proven JVM" - is that as in "proven to be slower than a one-legged caterpillar"? Why is there not a single benchmark on the TPC performance site [tpc.org] that includes Java technology? However, if you want to see an "enterprise scaled application using COM, MTS, or COM+" there are a legion of examples on the site...

      • Thank you for the interesting link. However, it could be looked at many different ways. If you look at the non-clustered benchmarks, it is, quite certainly dominated by applications based on the Java platform, running under IBM Websphere and BEA application servers. One could generalize that the COM+ applications require many more CPU's than the Java applications to maintain good performance. For a per CPU comparison, Java based applictions seem to actually come out on top. People don't seem to understand that once a Java application is first loaded into memory, it is converted to binary code. This may cause a small delay in stand alone application, but works very well for server side apps that are going to be up and running for a long time. tpc.org seems like an interesting site, however, it doesn't seem to cover things like uptime and memory management. It's focus appears to compare the top transaction performance of a system's entire infrastructure not just the language platform.

  • Its not THAT bad... (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward
    For all the conspiracy theorists, there is a very good reason for J#... porting existing J++ code over to .Net. Also, as a side benefit(!?) you can port most Java code over to .Net. Some bright person in our organization decided that we were going to move to .Net going forward, and our port has saved us weeks of development time.

    Personally, I would NEVER use it as a primary development language. There are quit a few issues with it, but its a life saver for people porting.
    • People porting? Is that like where you replace deadwood with shell scripts?
    • I don't get it. Why port a proprietary, m$ piece of code from one m$ compiler to another? If you wanted to port code, you'd probably want to port it to a ~different~ platform. Try porting it to JDK (This may involve removing several thousand lines of Win32 APIs, but it's worth it.)
  • Whenever somebody referes to J# as Java, simple repond tha J# is broken, it is not Java! Management are capable of understanding this simple truth, without explaination.

    Remember: In English, the # symbol is a hash, to hash something means to bodge or fcuk it up.
    • Remember: In English, the # symbol is a hash,

      It's also an "octothorpe" making C# "Coctothorpe" (which the Micros~1 rep did not appreciate when I brought it up at a recent .NET function.)

      They must beat their people in Redmond, regularly.

      MS rep: "I let someone make fun of Micros~1 today."

      Evil Bill: "Here's your beating"

      MS Rep: "Thank you. May I have another?"

  • isn't C# supposed to be what J# is going to be used for? what the hell is going on?
  • Let's be frank. C# was designed to replace Java. It's got a C-like object-oriented syntax that allows package importation and that, through .NET, is compiled and delivered in binary form throughout the internet, right?

    What I want to know is what the heck the point is of continuing J++ as J#, which I assume also has a C-like object-oriented syntax that allows package importation and that, through regular Java compilation, is delivered in binary form throughout the internet?

    Is the J++ user-base so large that it's profitable to help them migrate to .NET?
  • Is porting real Java to windows binary, for distribution to people who are too lazy or scared to download and install a JVM on their new Java-Free XP boxen.
  • Given MS's loss to Sun with Visual J++ and the knowledge that MS wants to push C#, how many Java developers will actually bother with this one?
    Obviously, MS's marketing people have a good track record, but maybe a Java to C# conversion tool would have been a better choice...

  • I think I figured this out! (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Da VinMan ( 7669 ) on Thursday November 08, 2001 @08:05PM (#2541094)
    Besides allowing the J++ developers to port their code to .Net, this leaves the doors wide open and make it easy (easier anyway, they are massive) for a third party to implement the Java APIs (e.g. the J2EE family on top of .Net. To my way of thinking, that could have a lot of value.

    To use a hockey analogy:
    So Microsoft isn't allowed to score with the Java puck on the Sun goal anymore. But are they prohibited from making an assist? Nope.

    Also, there is the idea that they may simply be trying to lure Java developers as a whole into .Net by making sure the language syntax isn't a barrier. Sure C# isn't all that far from Java, but now the language is no excuse at all. (The API learning curve may be a barrier but Microsoft has made that easy to get into through Intellisense, wizards, etc.)

    You know it's funny.. I just went to the MS DevDays conference this last week and no mention was made of J#. Hmm....
  • My only confusion with J# is that it looks the same as C#. C# is Java with a few keywords modified. What is different between the two? From looking at a page of code, I couldn't tell you which is which! They've even made VB look the same. Why would anyone prefer one over the other?
    • I would assume that the prefernce would be based on whatever language you used before migrating to whatever#. Seems like their ultimate goal might be to create a single standard development language (controlled by M$, of course).

  • .NET has it's own architecture (Score:3, Interesting)

    by hughk ( 248126 ) on Saturday November 10, 2001 @05:12AM (#2548013) Journal
    First, this is not intended to be either a troll or flamebait. Please differentiate between MS and the technoly where there is an open alternative.

    Microsoft compiles output from C# and J# to an intermediate code that is given, in turn to a JIT compiler. There is no virtual machine, but what the code is allowed to do is well defined (you can only make certain defined calls to a special environment. You can not self modify the code or execute data so calls outside the box are prevented.

    There is no particular advantage to this approach as opposed to the JVM/JIT compiler combinations used for Java except that the execution environment is a lot friendlier to Windows type programs.

    J# is just a way to lever Java code onto .NET, the same with COBOL# and FORTRAN#. As the C# language spec, the intermediate code and the execution envionmrnt spec is being passed to ECMA, I begin to feel more comfortable about this side of .NET (see also the Mono [go-mono.com] project). Hailstorm sucks big, but that is just BillG's normal attempt at world domination. The architecture doesn't need Hailstorm and some OS developers like what they see.

    Of course, the reason behind .NET was to fight SUN, however, SUN openned themselves up to this by not properly opening up Java quickly enough. Frankly, SUN doesn't have the muscle to run the Java project by itself (having lived with the bleeding edge of Java betas, I see that). MS is no better but by giving it to ECMA, the standards are under public control/scrutiny so it is difficult for them to embrace/extend.

  • After being on slashdot for almost 2 years I have finally decided something. I want to code. It may sound dumb to some to not know where to go for coding help, but starting today I want to know something beyond my simple HTML and QBASIC. Now, for the big question, where can I go to learn how to code and what should I learn first? I've been told by many to learn PERL or JAVA first but I figyure where could possibly be better to ask tahn slashdot? PLEASE HELP!!!!


    an asspiring scripot kiddy

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