Windows XP Embedded 382
Embedded Geek writes: "Embedded Systems Programming has a piece
about Microsoft organizing its employees to advocate their embedded products in online newsgroups (part of "a new culture at Microsoft" making "an effort to shed the company's reputation as an incommunicative giant.") This is coordinated with Microsoft's launch of Windows XP Embedded at their Embedded Developers' Conference (the countdown clock on their homepage says Wednesday but the launch party is Thursday)." News.com notes that this will be used in slot machines and ATMs. Insert obligatory free-money joke.
Embedded in what? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Embedded in what? (Score:2)
I have a solution. Put slashdot in a critical section. Yes, you heard me correctly and I mean all of it. One user at a time. No pushing. Please take a number and queue up, we'll notify you when it is your turn.
This is not the traditional embedded market (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:This is not the traditional embedded market (Score:3, Funny)
I was there when the server rebooted. It showed a Windows 2000 desktop with an error message in a dialog box.
Hmmm. Microsoft Windows: Suddenly everything sticks.
Paul.
Re:This is not the traditional embedded market (Score:2, Funny)
I've seen the Windows 2000 login screen at an ATM in the UK (with an error box behind it), which I have to say scared the willies out of me. I almost wish I'd had a camera with me at the time.
Hmm this appears to be my (2^8)th post, glad I'm not a Pacman machine.
Re:This is not the traditional embedded market (Score:2, Funny)
Re:This is not the traditional embedded market (Score:2, Informative)
The 4690 OS much more light weight, designed for reliability and quality, and to a greater extent, upgradability. It's also been around for over 10 years. Stores have been known to run for two weeks on backup servers without even knowing it was switched over.
Also, different than Fat MS, I've been told to keep my code small so that the base Kroger supermarket app can fit within 1mb of ram. I'm not saying everything should be programmed this way, but the constraints put upon by *good* kiosks, cash registers, ATM's, and especially embedded devices are too heavy for something like XP.
replaces embedded NT (Score:5, Informative)
Given the increase in complexity and code size its going to be interesting to see how it goes into devices.
Re:replaces embedded NT (Score:3, Informative)
Or the Natwest ones at Manchester Uni which were rebooted every Monday morning.
Or the Nationwide one at my local tube station, its spent most of the last fortnight moaning about something not being loaded and just generally not working.
Re:replaces embedded NT (Score:2, Funny)
And the Natwest ATM at Waterloo Station (again London, UK) which BSOD'd on the lady before me in the queue, taking her card with it.
She's probably the only person I know with a personal reason to hate Microsoft. Hehe.
cmclean
P.S. Did you know the term "Cashpoint" is copyright in the UK by LloydsTSB? wtf?
Re:replaces embedded NT (Score:5, Funny)
Re:replaces embedded NT (Score:3, Informative)
Do you ever see a BSOD on a cashpoint - I haven't?
I have [blue-screen.org.uk]
Re:replaces embedded NT (Score:2)
Well, it was the OS/2 Warp equivalent of a bsod. The machine rebooted, I saw BIOS messages.
Then I went to another ATM, got my money, and out of curiosity, went again to the broken ATM.
OS/2 was still booting, it looked very ugly and hacky (some errors in autoexec.bat or whatever it's called in OS/2) - it also told me several times to hit enter or something.
Then something funny happened, it told me (as I was looking at the screen) to insert a disk. It beeped and *lighted the slot where you insert the card*!
Re:replaces embedded NT (Score:2)
Something similar happened to me a few years ago. An OS/2 based ATM crashed while I was making a withdrawal. The cash dispensor made funny noises for a little while and, just before it should have given me my money, it died.
I was worried about my transaction and went to the next machine to see if the money was gone from my account. Sure enough, the withdrawal had been recorded but I had no money. Worried, I called my bank immediately.
Then something neat happened. While I was on hold the crashed ATM went through it's startup sequence and apparently counted it's till! By the time I actually got through to a bank CSR, the machine had noticed that it had more money than it should and reversed my failed transaction, all without human intervention.
That's some seriously cool programming.
Re:replaces embedded NT (Score:2)
All the time. (Score:3, Flamebait)
Recently:
The information terminals at MCI Center (they have never worked properly, to my knowledge- they are always off, talkatively crashed, or frozen.)
Newer Allfirst ATMs (which all use Windows 2000.)
The terminals at the Baltimore Convention Center (the OS keeps forgetting it has a touchscreen, oops.)
If I know what's running on something, that generally means I've seen it crash! The only Linux-based device I saw having problems was a group of web terminals at a New Jersey Turnpike rest area. But they were in a pretty deplorable state from all points, and those were just glorified PCs anyway (one was reporting a keyboard failure at the BIOS, no surprise since it seemed that someone had heavily worked it over with an ice pick)
Re:replaces embedded NT (Score:2, Interesting)
Yes. Just because you've never seen it doesn't mean it doesn't occur. Maybe that's why that ATM seems to be running embedded DOS now...
Re:replaces embedded NT (Score:2, Flamebait)
Heck neither have I (We usually call 'em ATMs on the Western side of the Big Swamp). But I have seen plenty of BSODed flight info displays at airports and other places.
Hmm... I wonder. I've seen a few photos of prominent BSOD displays pop up from time to time (here and on other web sites). Anyone know of a web site that specializes in those? Could be good for a laugh.
Re:replaces embedded NT (Score:2)
There is a lot of inertia among banks against replacing systems that work. XP will have to prove itself many *years* before a hardnosed banker will reconsider.
--PD
Re:replaces embedded NT (Score:5, Funny)
No, the banking industry would NEVER run Windows on their ATMs! [daimyo.org]
Re:replaces embedded NT (Score:2)
Seriously, though, Windows works a lot better for embedded than people think. Remember Dreamcast? It's up to the embedded programmers to do a good job of customizing Windows for their chosen platform, and that's where problems usually happen. Most times, PHBs choose Windows for a project because of the shorter dev cycle. That right there indicates that there's a deadline crunch, which should explain the sloppy code.
Dreamcast/Windows CE FUD (Score:2, Informative)
Hopefully for the last time: 95% of Dreamcast games do not run WinCE/DirectX. The operating system the Dreamcast uses resides on the disc, not the system ROM, and is up to the developer what OS and API to use.
Most Dreamcast games used "SegaKatana," which was Sega's own API/OS for games. It was lean, mean, and very stable.
Since the Dreamcast uses a Hitachi SH4 processor (same family as PocketPCs), Windows CE compatibility was implemented to encourage PC ports. Most WinCE games (Worms World Party, Hidden and Dangerous, etc) are notoriously buggy and ugly compared to Katana games. This is not completely WinCE's fault, as most of the developers using WinCE didn't give a rat's ass about making a good port.
Homebrew developers can also build games using gcc. Several emulators and even a version of Linux have come to Dreamcast using this toolkit.
Conclusion: Don't associate the Dreamcast with Windows CE.
Impressive (Score:4, Funny)
Wait a minute...
Knunov
Re:Impressive (Score:2)
Re:Impressive (Score:2)
Heh, I finally decided to clean up my "bone yard" of old computers, and pitch out anything left over when I ran out of hard drives. The last was a 486/66 with a 205M and 82M drive. That 82M drive was the big drive on my multi-user Coherent/Linux 386/25 8M ram BBS machine.
There is something very fscked when a Xenu-damned appliance requires that much power and storage!
they have no chance (Score:4, Interesting)
This is why 60% of all embedded systems are DOS and then Linux (The linux side is growing fast.... and I mean really fast) and then specalized.
If Microsoft can demonstrate a single floppy version of XP that needs only 4 meg of ram or less to run and leave room for my app then I'll take them serious.
Until then Microsoft products are not looked at as a serious alternative or solution, they are too expensive to impliment in the hardware requirements.
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:they have no chance (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re:they have no chance (Score:2)
Actually, there are devices which have embedded operating systems but aren't necessarily "rich" in the Internet Appliance sense. High speed data and phone switches are a prime example--and yes, from what I understand (up until early this year I was at the engineering group of a fairly major CLEC), some of them really do run Embedded NT. And they're actually pretty stable. As one wag put it, "The 'NT' part isn't the problem, the 'Windows' part is."
I'd really say that QNX's market is more along those lines, too. The QNX "Realtime Platform" has obviously been targeted for internet appliances, but its sibling, QNX RTOS 6, isn't.
Re:they have no chance (Score:2)
and QNX is lumped into my linux comment as it is a Unix dirviative(sp?) also.
QNX can do things that no embedded Microsoft product ever can. 1 floppy OS with GUI,TCP/IP stack and HTML browser. this put's QNX in a place that micrsoft cannot compete. The mebedded market is not Kiosks or palm or pocket devices. These are by no means embedded devices by any stretch of anyone's imagination, these are pocket computing platforms, which are nothing but toys or tools for the rich/geeks/salespeople/ceo's and are toys. Embedded systems control heavy equipment, run microsat's, perform datalogging and control the real world from your toaster-oven to your town's water filtration plant (both drinkable and sewage plants), Car stereo's, mp3 players, your digital cable box, routers, security systems.
microsoft cannot compete in this realm, they cannot get their bloat down to the size needed to run our every-day devices and critical devices.
Re:they have no chance (Score:2)
But that's the tragedy, actually they do. They're looking to leverage the foothold they have with SMB, borked Kerberos, ActiveDirectory etc. to make devices that appear on Microsoft networks nice and easily.
They've been at this for ages, since the early days of NT4 believe it or not. Luckily the embedded arena generally regards Linux as being a bit lardy (but is coming around real fast) and hence has basically no interest in attempting to embed NT.
Dave
No... (Score:2)
The computer that handles the engine in modern cars, for instance.
Embedded does not mean 'small and fast'.
Where on earth did you get the '60% of all embedded systems are DOS and the Linux??
Most embedded systems are QNX, VXWorks, and other, traditional real-time operating systems, or hand-written from scratch.
RTLinux is a relative newcomer.
Or do you think 'embedded' means 'small PC' or 'handheld pc'? It doesn't.
60% DOS.... my arse (Score:4, Insightful)
What embedded systems do you work on ? Most embedded systems (controllers, switches etc etc) run a very very small RTOS, DOS is not an RTOS (Real Time Operating System).
DOS is not an RTOS, Linux is not an RTOS. These systems are not really talking about embedded stuff at all, they are talking about small PC architectures, which have their place. But embedded is about small footprint and 100% reliability. I wouldn't like to know that the medical controller my life relied upon was using DOS.
Re:they have no chance (Score:2)
Their only question was that why did we need to reset the iPaq every time we run the demo.
(Anyone would kindly advise how to prevent the iPaq from giving the loud *DING* sound while resetting would be greatly appreciated)
Microsoft invents Customer Feedback (Score:5, Interesting)
That perception, Microsoft says, is precisely why everyone on the development team of its Talisker embedded operating system now logs hours every week, chatting about the OS in news groups, checking out "bug reports" on a dedicated Web site and meeting with users face-to-face at "plugfests," where they discuss Talisker programming experiences.
Congrats to Microsoft for inventing web based [gnu.org] bug tracking [sourceforge.net]. Truly this is a great day for software.
Re:Microsoft invents Customer Feedback (Score:2, Interesting)
I myself use Windows, I am pro-windows in many ways, but even to me posts like this look like MS trolls.
Examine it closely for a moment.....
Point #1: Lack of proper capitalization.
This seems to be very common in MS trolls. I figure either they have no shift keys or do so many of these posts a minute that the keystroke required to hit shift actually represents a significant time cost.
Point #2: Mentioning a product by MS
MS Trolls are almost frightening in their ability to reference ANY MS product in a statement. In most cases, the product reference is either usually garbage or not related to the topic at hand.
Point #3: Taking shots at open source
Every MS troll seems to bash open source at every available opportunity. The open standards/source/etc are evil arguments are always a sure sign.
Point #3a: People who use anything open are
Why is it that pro-MS people always refer to everybody who isn't as a Timothy Leary type, acid-dropping hippy freak hanging out at Berkley and coding BSD to bring down the man.
-Canadria
Oh well,
Another Rant Bites the Dust
I'm not surprised... (Score:2, Funny)
So a Microsoft product is going to be responsible for a machine that takes a whole bunch of money. Who else is a little nervous about all of this?
Finally Learning From The Open Source Community (Score:5, Insightful)
The main reason users tend to form a community around Open Source projects is that there is direct communication between the users of the product and the developers of the product without the layer of bullshit introduced by marketing and management. If I post to the dbXML, Scoop or JDEE mailing list, I know I'll get at least one response from an actual developer of the product who will make a solid attempt to solve my problem as opposed to paying umpteen dollars to be put on hold by some pimply faced teenager who probably couldn't code his way out of a paper bag.
While at MSFT I planned to evangelize such a user-centric view of interaction but never got around to doing it on as large a scale as I liked. I did however try my best to make sure that as many questions to the newsgroup of our product [google.com] were answered by someone at MSFT, if not me then someone whom I felt could answer the question. It looks that finally some like minded people are springing up in other parts of MSFT.
Re:Finally Learning From The Open Source Community (Score:2, Flamebait)
I mean you seem like a nice guy, but you do realize that Microsoft want's to control software universe and be the gateway to your wallet, dont you? Do they really need your help? You seem like a bright guy.
People say you have to separate the company from the employees - that MS has really nice, bright employees. I think you can say that the employees who avidly support Microsoft's world-domination strategy (Ok, maybe the janitors in redmond dont quite grasp that point) should maybe be held responsable (ethically) for their complicity in it. I pray (wish, hope) that MS will fail in their global domination strategy. And I hope talented people dont further their evil ways.
Re:Finally Learning From The Open Source Community (Score:2, Insightful)
One of the genius things MS has done is to provide one and only one solution to the problem. Speeds up development for people who want to get the project *done*. Most businesses aren't interested in beautiful technology or ideal code. The have a problem and need a solution, quickly and easily.
Communities tend to form around people who enjoy a particular activity at least partially for the sake of the activity itself. OS/GNU people enjoy computers. I'm not sure MS's efforts will create a community with members that have any interest other than their own problems.
When there is only one solution to the problem, why get together and discuss it? People will pop up, ask a question, get The Answer, then disappear. The most frequent posters will be the flamers with an axe to grind and MS employees.
Re:Finally Learning From The Open Source Community (Score:2)
Are you sure that's the reason? Amiga nuts, BBSers, and Apple II users all had communities in their day.
I think the main reason for a Linux community is that many Linux users actually enjoy working with their OS. Tinkering is an end unto itself. MS products just aren't as much fun to play with, so the technical people that would build a community don't use it.
I know I'm biased, but honestly it's been my experience that highly technical people - the ones who enjoy their work - prefer Unix and Linux. Most of the MS administrators are just in it for the money. If street cleaning paid as well then they'd be doing that.
Re:Finally Learning From The Open Source Community (Score:2)
>it for the money. If street cleaning paid
>as well then they'd be doing that.
Oversimplification. Just MS admins != greedy capitalist b******d.
There are many sysadmins I know of who take great pride in their being able to manage a AD system spread over 4 continents with ease. Who keep it secure from day one. Who maintain 16- and 32-way Datacenter systems.
And: there are a number of MS oriented *developers* I know who would not even consider consider the CLI-centric Unix tools to be real programs. Like you put a premium on power and expressiveness, they put a premium on ease of use, visual slickness and usability by your grandmother.
So all it boils down to is different worldviews.
Developer friendliness (Score:2)
But speaking as someone who has used Microsoft development products for over a decade now, the trouble has always been that the information flow was one-way. They provide you with reams of information, but when you report a problem (and in one case, I was even able to give them a source line and fix for a bug in the ATL), it usually goes into a black hole. I still remember how shocked I was the first time this happened to me. I was used to the way Borland actually let you talk to an engineer and gave you an answer in a timely fashion, even if it was "well, we'll fix it in the next release".
And while I am talking about failings of Microsoft's developer support, I'll mention the other big one: They have a tendency to focus too much on the technology du jour and not enough on older stuff. You find lots of stupidities like sample code that no longer works (just ran into this the other day with the "SAMPLE.DSM" macros that come with Visual Studio). The people at Microsoft need to understand that developers can't just instantly jump to whatever new technology is out there even if it is superior. When you've got a million lines of code that use DDE, the answer "Use COM" is not sufficient.
Re:Finally Learning From The Open Source Community (Score:2)
No The reason users for a community around Open Source is beacue Open Source doesen't try to scew them with vendor-lock in, buggy software and illegal business practices. Face it, Microsoft is not liked amung computing profesionals due to Microsofts bad behavour to its customers.
We are jelous of the popularity of Microsoft either: Apache is the most used web-server and everybody likes them. Cicso is popular, and we like them as well. Hell, we like Nintendo of all companies, better than Microsoft.
We've always been out listening (Score:4, Troll)
There are two classes of reasons that we don't use our real names. First, we as individuals don't want to get spammed any more than we already do. Individuals from MS have been targeted and stalked in the past; none of us wants to be the victim of some kook. Second, the company has a right to manage its own messages. Sometimes, obviously, that's a bad thing; our quiet lets the company get away with lying. Usually, though, there are a number of of people who have the right to know before the public does. (Our partners, for instance, may need to adjust their strategies in response to changes that we make along the way in our own. There's nothing so humiliating as not knowing some key point about a change, and having some reporter tell you that he just read all about it in a newsgroup.) We need to protect that orderly flow of information.
Re:We've always been out listening (Score:5, Insightful)
ahem. Some of you acknowledge your bias, however many, many of you do not. So much so, and on so many occasions, that Microsoft astroturfing has become a cliche on slashdot, kuro5hin, and numerous other forums.
We need to protect that orderly flow of information.
Which underscores Microsoft's philosophy (and to be fair, others. Let's not forget Disney's cosponsorship
Please, spare us the insult to our intelligence by trying to rewrite Microsoft's most recent history in its interaction with this site, the free software community, and the internet at large. Such flimsy attempts to mislead the public are only amusing for so long and I, for one, grow weary of such nonsense.
Passport? (Score:5, Insightful)
Wouldn't the use of and embeded version of XP, which will be used for authentication and disbursement of monies, be an incentive for MS to get people and banks to use it's Passport service for authentication/verification etc?
Think about it. They want to get spending data etc, so this would be the perfect opportunity. Now I'm not bashing MS for making an embeded version of XP.
We all know CE wasn't the best...but still are making money out of it and they can most likely capitalize on XP's new features.
Personally I'd stick w/ whatever was already out there for the banking systems...I trust them more than I do MS.
No, not really.. (Score:2)
Embedded operating systems provide a framework for custom applications to run.
And before you 'trust' them more than you do MS, do you even know who they are? Bold statement.
Embedded systems in ATM's are rigorously programmed applications. THe fact that they move to a different OS is no big deal.
For some, it is too late... (Score:4, Informative)
And yes, they did *actually* get those "Low on Virtual Memory" errors (try to hit CTRL-ALT-DELETE to reboot on an ATM) and even a few bluescreens back then. I kid you not.
On the other hand after those child diseases, they are actully seeming to behave, and I know of noone that has actually lost (or gotten) money due to this.
The banks just needed two service packs, is my guess.
Well, so this product, after troubles unheard of in other systems, finally made it "stable" and "reliable".
I would not like to bet my money once again, just because I got the winning ticket once. Would you?
Slot machines are a natural fit for MS... (Score:2, Troll)
M$ is finally getting it!!! (Score:2, Interesting)
This is what users have been screaming for on their desktops. Food for thought.
Confused (Score:2)
So, like, how does this XP embedded fit into an overall strategy that has seen WinCE and even NT embedded?
This seems to be one of those corporate gaffes.
Remember 1994 and Java?
"What a great programming language - I know! - let's tie it in as Web client!"
Along the same lines 2001:
"I know! This .NET is such a great thing we'll shove into those hot new "embedded devices" everyone is talking about!"
<forehead wrinkles>
Hardly uncommunicative... (Score:2, Interesting)
Microsoft Corporation (Nasdaq: MSFT), in its quest to sway states' attorneys general into settling antitrust charges still filed against it, has apparently orchestrated what was originally thought to be a grassroots letter-writing campaign in support of the company, the Los Angeles Times has reported."
Methinks they doth communicate too much.
[I'd rather have linked to the
the last thing we need.. (Score:2)
the last thing we need is a slowr cash machine with pretty colors.
my bank just replaced all their old, green screen, keypad operated cash machines with new, color touch screen cash machines.
guess what. it takes twice as long to get cash from the new machine.
guess what. visually impaired people can't use the new machines, because there is no brail facility.
sure they are pretty.
I don't want pretty in a cash machine, I WANT CASH!
I don't want slow in a cash machine, I WANT FAST!
now, on top of slow color touchscreens, they are going to add winXP???
it will take 3 days and an air conditioned 8Ghz pentium4 to get my $20, when 30 seconds and a z80 used to be sufficient.
[/RANT]
Re:the last thing we need.. (Score:2)
I remember using Unix email over slow modems years ago, and it was much faster than reading my work email on Outlook is now. Doing anything over a network was instantaneous; now it's ridiculously slow even though network speeds are much greater and computers are much faster. Just doing an 'ls' on my work computer can take 20 seconds to get a directory from a networked drive, whereas on the Unix systems 8 years ago, I couldn't tell if a directory was on a local drive or NFS.
Bank machines back in the 80's were better too: I remember using machines that had small "viewports" that could be swivelled up and down (useful for tall and short people). These machines had all-text displays, but worked very reliably. Now, machines have buttons next to the display whose function changes depending on what you're doing, but if you're very tall, you have to stoop to see which button corresponds to the arrow on the screen due to parallax. Plus, it's easy for bystanders to watch the screen while it's showing your account balance.
Computers may be faster than they were 10 years ago, but are they more functional? I don't think so.
Re:the last thing we need.. (Score:2)
I don't want slow in a cash machine, I WANT FAST!
While you are standing at a cash machine, waiting for your money, the new pretty screens can flash you information about your bank's available services. People's attentions are harder to draw these days and a marketing opportunity to a captive set of eyeballs could not be passed up. Yes, it sucks. But if it's important enough for you, vote with your feet and switch banks.
WIAFM
Amen...
The return of Sircam? (Score:3, Funny)
I send you this financial transaction in order to have your advice.
Re:Why the hell was this modded flamebait? (Score:2)
Maybe that has something to do with it...
Let's get something straight right now. (Score:2)
How far did CE really go ? (Score:2, Insightful)
There is a machine at the family business called a Holtzma. Its a German made saw. Its made to cut entire books of plywood (MCP, pine, or whatever). They have 3 of them, one with simple switches which is *VERY* old. The second has a digital display but looks like a custom OS. The newest one has a Windows machine build in. (I can't wait for the day when I walk by, see the blue seen of death, and get to say those famous words
Anyway, the point behind the saw is that this would be the perfect place for Linux. The PC running it currently has to be a fast machine, becuase of the Windows requirements. Linux however, could use much lower requirements. Plus, take a window manager like blackbox, or other small window manager, to make it simple, small, nice user interface. Since people aren't using things like office suites, you could rip a lot of crap out of it.
Security on such a machine is also a big concern. Wouldn't it be great if your employee didn't feel like working that day, fired up regedit and made a few small changes ? You could imagine all of the other things that could be done. Since its Windows, theres always a false sense of security.
I assume in a few years companys like them would start getting smarter about it. People don't want propritary systems, they want something simple and small. Windows, has too many toys built into it that can't be removed. Plus, when you start looking at the outrages licensing ammounts for Windows. Linux, starts looking VERY nice.
To get Linux being used in a serious way, alls it would take is for a large PDA company like Palm to start offearing it on a few Palm Pilots. (Maybe create a few models with it, just to test the waters). People would start fogetting about Palm OS pretty quick. Other companys would surley follow.
</soapbox>
Re:How far did CE really go ? (Score:2)
Thing is, when you're making an automated saw for $100k, you don't give a toss about what kind of computer is needed to run it. You care about:
a, Making people buy the saw.
b, Making sure it doesn't break down.
And point b is where Linux wins. Even if we assume that NT doesn't fall over, you're still going to need a hard drive purely from a bloat point of view. In the embedded arena one huge advantage Linux has is that it can be put on 2Mb of flash that is soldered to the board. No moving parts = very happy automated saw manufacturer. Reducing the number of cables, connectors, fans etc. must also not be overlooked as a major way of increasing reliability of embedded systems.
Wouldn't it be great if your employee didn't feel like working that day, fired up regedit and made a few small changes ?
Not a problem, NT embedded wouldn't even have regedit on it.
Plus, when you start looking at the outrages licensing ammounts for Windows. Linux, starts looking VERY nice.
NT Embedded is $70/licence. Again, nothing in the $100k saw, especially if it reduces development costs. The good thing is that Linux is getting such a stronghold in the embedded arena that it looks very unlikely that developing for embedded NT would prove cost effective.
a large PDA company like Palm to start offearing it on a few Palm Pilots
Problems with the design requirements for low power kernels. A low power kernel basically has to get the processor back to sleep ASAP. Multi-user requirements (for instance) take a major back seat here. Luckily processors are getting much more efficient and moore's law is looking to pick up Linux on it's curve as it goes past. Go look at the power consumption vs mips figures for the Intel Xscale. Bloody stunning.
Dave
PS. Check out this bitch [axis.com], then rejoice, for Linux rules in embedded.
new bug in IE 12.0:cross-bank-account scripting (Score:2, Funny)
new advisory posted XX-XX-XXXX (date censored due to DMCA violations).
description: new bug in IE version 12, default on all windows embedded applications (including ATM, slot machines, car stereo systems).
quick description: by using some malformed ATM-cards, an attacker can inject a code that will make IE cross-jump between bank accounts, and therefore access the internals of the account. The string has been sent to microsoft for further analyzation, and hopefully they will give an Obscure Patch within the next eight months.
personal considerations: perhaps in a world of full-disclosure, microsoft would give a patch in few days and save zillions of ATM users, but surely this system could be used by terrorists to subvert the US banking system. so censoring advisories is a good idea.
---
Uncommunicative? (Score:2)
Rebate! (Score:2)
And this is bad? (Score:2, Interesting)
- The Cluetrain Manifesto
, advocates as being the next evolution of business. (I haven't actually read the book yet, but I listened to him speak in Boulder once, and his argument was extremely convincing.) This is my first time posting in slashdot, so forgive any stylistic errors.Obligatory Joke (Score:3, Funny)
Free money, or FEE money?
A Fee of $4.00 will be charged to this transaction for customer support, legal fees and continued lobbying to prevent Microsoft from being punished for monopolistic practices.
PRESS THIS BUTTON TO ACCEPT ---->
OR
PRESS THIS BUTTON TO ACCEPT ---->
Sorry, CANCEL has been disabled, please call 1-900-UGO-MSFT for customer support, first 30 minutes $75, mininum charge 30 minutes.
Linux fanatics starve... (Score:5, Interesting)
The embedded devices market is not all about small and fast. And even where the issue is small and fast, the XP kernel may well prove to have more to offer than many UNIX designs.
There is a wide range of embedded devices, from washing machines to cars, to industrial process machinery. Until recently only a small fraction of those systems had anything as sophisticated as an operating system.
If on the other hand you want to build a next generation audio system you are likely to find that you need an O/S, you need some sort of file system to store your MP3s, you have an ethernet and possibly a WiFi interface to support, you may even support PCMCIA or compactflash. XP has major advantages in that space since you are guaranteed to have a driver available.
The bloatware charge is and always has been bogus. People don't seem to understand that the value of a 3 year old PC is $150 and so there is no particular reason why Microsoft should limit a $100/$200 O/S so that it can run under the constraints of that machine. 512Mb SIMMs are on sale these days for the price of 16Mb SIMMs a couple of years back, nobody actually makes 20Gb 3.5" disks any more, they are too small to bother with.
RAM and disk space are not constrained resources on the PC, so don't expect companies in that space to constrain them in their products. The O/S kernel is kept small because the performance of the machine depends on large parts of it being in primary or secondary cache most of the time.
The features of XP that will be much more relevant to the embedded systems space are its multi-tasking and scheduling control. I don't expect any traditional UNIX kernel to do well there, the UNIX architecture was never designed for and is simply not up to RT tasks. Thats why the RT Linux varieties have major mods to the internals to support features such as guaranteed scheduling etc.
Re:Linux fanatics starve... (Score:5, Insightful)
Because people don't buy OLD computers to run new operating systems, they buy NEW ones. And NEW computers are not $150. So not only do you have to shell out another $200 for a bloated OS, you have to spend 2000 bucks for a system that'll run it.
Re:Linux fanatics starve... (Score:2)
Last year you could get a new machine (sans monitor) for $450 at Micro Center. This year you can get name brand, 1.2 GHz plus machines for less than $1000. The system requirements for Windows XP are easily met by all the machines currently on the market. The only possible exception being some of the year old models being sold by the discount outlets.
PCs are disposable equipment, they are not durable goods by any stretch of the imagination. Users want a fat O/S distribution.
Even if you have an older PC you can now get 256Mb SIMMS for $30 and huge disks for $100. It is not at all unreasonable for XP to expect a high performance machine.
Of course if your idea of computing is to use a Dec Vt100 attached to the serial port of your 386 box, then go ahead. Just don't expect the rest of us to adapt because you choose to use a museum piece.
Re:Linux fanatics starve... (Score:2)
I think Microsoft as well as OEM's are in trouble because of this.
Re: "guaranteed to have a driver available" (Score:2)
Yeah, right. Who guarantees this? I want it in writing.
And then I want a driver for my PCMCIA network card which is neither supported with Windows 98, nor with 2000, nor with XP. It is, though, under Linux.
When did Microsoft ever guarantee anything? They say in their own EULA that their OS is unfit for 'mission critical' applications, and with the last couple months, most e-mail users and web server admins knew what itreally meant not to be able to properly fix your machine, no matter how much support contracts you had.
"People don't seem to understand that the value of a 3 year old PC is $150 and so there is no particular reason why Microsoft should limit a $100/$200 O/S so that it can run under the constraints of that machine."
no, You don't understand. People don't understand why they should buy a machine whose cost is 50% the software it runs. They don't understand why (to take your example) a simple MP3 player would need hundreds of MB of of hard disk just to drive an operating system, and the manufacturer wouldn't understand why they wouldn't be able to modify the OS to their own taste, but have to rely on the company to provide what is supposedly best for them.
And I personally don't believe that anybody can strip down XP to a level that makes it run satisfactorily on a 386 class CPU from a 4MB flash ROM that needs close to no electrical power, when the application this system is supposed to run doesn't need Gigahertz and Gigabytes.
"I don't expect any traditional UNIX kernel to do well there, the UNIX architecture was never designed for and is simply not up to RT tasks. Thats why the RT Linux varieties have major mods to the internals to support features such as guaranteed scheduling etc."
Windows "wasn't originally designed to be" multi-tasking, multi-user, not to mention even being network capable, either. And I don't think you have actually seen RTLinux yet - or MS have achieved something MUCH better than their various embedded forks of Windows since I last checked.
My point is that RTLinux is making headway fast, and I don't hear much about Windows in the embedded market. And for this, there must be a reason.
Lies, damn lies! (Score:3, Funny)
In fact, embedded XP is the best thing since sliced bread and the Stinger platform will rarely crash your phone. The XBox kicks ass and Steve "Fester" Balmer is the nicest guy you can imagine.
In essence, it's really not true that Microsoft employees subvert discussion groups. I can prove it if you send mail to captainzapp@microsoft.com.
Embedded XP... (Score:2)
You'll note that it is touted for use in "ATMs and slot machines". That is because it cannot be used for hard realtime, low latency applications like flight controls, robotics, or medical devices. It is also sure to be bloated and inefficient compared with something that is designed from the ground up to be an embedded OS.
I'd highly recommend QNX [qnx.com] instead, it is POSIX and QNX sits on the realtime Linux committee. Hard Hat Linux [mvista.com] and cousins are looking better and better as well. These solutions do support hard realtime scheduling, thus providing across the board solutions for all your embedded needs. QNX, in particular, is also very well engineered. It provides a highly modular architecture, allowing you to deploy only the functionality you need, minimizing system cost.
299,792,458 m/s...not just a good idea, its the law!
Re:Embedded XP... (Score:2)
I like that one. I was going to suggest a place where one could embed WinXP but it'd get someone an assault conviction. Or worse.
Hmm... I'm having difficulty seeing what the need for any sort of realtime OS would be for an ATM or slot machine. (Probably because I'm more used to real realtime systems like navigation and landing systems.) Heck, MVS or VMS could be considered realtime enough for ATMs and slot machines. Personally, I suspect MS is recommending WinXP for those applications because they see that equipment being used in industries they think have lots of money laying around that can be spent on MS products or royalties. Maybe I'm just jaded... Nah!
Re:Embedded XP... (Score:2)
That was exactly my point - why use an OS that's restricted to only the 'easy' embedded projects? You're much better off gaining expertise with something that'll address the entire gamut of systems.
Sorry if I wasn't clear.
299,792,458 m/s...not just a good idea, its the law!
WinXP for ATM (Score:5, Funny)
Please wait.
Enter your card.
New hardware found! Installing card-reader, please wait.
Please remove card from ATM.
Rebooting...
Welcome to WinXP for ATM
Please wait.
GPF, press "1, Clear + Enter" to reboot.
Rebooting...
Welcome to WinXP for ATM
Please wait.
Scandisk found errors on card-reader.
Enter your card.
Errors on your card have been found. Would you like to create a recovery-card?
"No."
It looks like you have never used this ATM before, would you like to transfer your profile?
"How do you know that?? No!"
You have selected withdraw cash.
Access Denied. Only a user with administrative rights may perform this action.
"F***.. Gimme back my card!"
Unable to remove card, there has been a sharing violation. This card is in use by another user.
"WTF????"
In Portugal... (Score:2, Flamebait)
Boy, you wouldn't believe the things I've seen popping up on the screen. Everything from "driver failed to load" from "multimedia is on, press ok to continue"! hehehehehe! (how do you press ok on an ATM?)
Oh, and, of course, blue-screens galore!
Next thing you know, the money comes out before you even put in the card...
buy why? (Score:2, Insightful)
The display you see for example on ATMs I suspect is just as easy to draw regardless of the OS you use. You're writing embedded systems, which means you are likely to write your own drivers anyways. If you are going to run XP, you certainly have the space/power to run a library like SDL which can do everything XP can do graphically AND remain much less dependent on your platform.
I am not trying to bash windows (okay, I am kinda), but just point out that an OS used primarily as a windowing system, may not be the best pick for a non-windowing system. Its like having windows on PDAs. The screens are barely big enough to show just one window, why would someone want overlapping windows?
Do i hafta use Passport instead of my ATM card? (Score:2, Funny)
Better yet, maybe they leave the remote adminstration enabled by default
Three Blue Screens in a row? (Score:2)
see subject line.
Anyone remember Embedded NT? (Score:2, Interesting)
Communication good, now do it full scale (Score:2)
"It can be a bit of an ego blow sometimes," Morris recalled. "But it comes down to this: We're trying to sell our product to these people, and sometimes they give us very valuable feedback."
Indeed, Morris said that Microsoft incorporated that customer's feedback in its second beta edition of Talisker, which will ultimately be called Windows CE.Net when it debuts as a full-fledged product later this year.
"
That's good. Communication is always good, whether the product is open or not.
Now do it with all of your products (including Windows XP) and I will might consider go back to Windows full-time. And stop hiding features in the registry! You listening Microsoft!?!
Oh! (Score:2)
Embedded or built-in?? (Score:2, Informative)
To me a sales/Internet kiosk is not embedded, a PDA is not embedded. Embedded systems are not necessarily small, but the user is not required to know abut the system at all. For instance, a telephone switches, PVR, heart-rate monitor, automotive control.
These devices run with minimal system resoures for years on end without errors, reboots or upgrades. Frequently, the OS is coded in ROM. T
I used to use an OS called OS/9 from Microware on my 6809 based Tandy Color Computer. This OS ran in 64K (not Meg) or RAM and a single 360KB floppy drive. It's a real time, protected memory, secure operating system. OS/9 runs on quite a few low-wattage CPUs with significant processing power. While not free, it is a mature, reliable OS. And I mean OS, not kernel.
Probably everone in the United States interacts with and OS/9 embedded system on a regular basis, but they'll never know it.
MS on the other hand is providing an OS that will still run on a high power consumption system with tremendous resources that is built in to, or controls some other device or structure. In most of the applications this "embeded XP" would target, the OS would be the front end that interacts with the end user.
Truth in advertising, perhaps (Score:2, Funny)
That way, Microsoft can honestly say XP "scales".
{mmph, snort, BWAAAHAHAHAHA}
I thought XP was already a slot machine (Score:2)
How many times do you pull the handle before the BSoD signifies your Jackpot?
P.S. Simple way to BSoD XP -- Use the disk manager to create and format a new drive. While drive is formatting, attempt to open an Explorer window on the drive. Kaboom!
Of eXP and slot machines and free money. (Score:2)
Okay, I can fully see why they're doing this: Slot machines are getting more and more advanced these days to bring in more consumers who aren't traditionally attracted to the "one armed bandit". So they make them more advanced with sound, video and everything else you can name. This is fine with me since I don't gamble.
But, to be fair, the Windows product line has been rightly derided for it's stability (though, IMO, Xfree is even less stable :) ) and there is the problem. Most multi-media slaot machines run on proven embedded OS's (especially QNX) and a pretty much bullet-proof becuase they are so single-focused.
I'm not sure of the size of Embedded XP, but I have feeling it will be like embedded NT and have loads of cruft that you'll never need in an embedded system -- and that just gives more stuff to go wrong.
An issue arises: GO to Las Vegas and look at the legal notices posted around, usually around the change cage -- one of them will be a big sign saying something like "in the case of mechanical or elelctronic failure or error, all payouts are declared void and all wagers are considered forfeit." What this is saying is that if your eXP multimedia slot machine BSODs and spits out 50k dollars at you, you don't get to keep it -- what's more is that any money you put into the machine as a bet is lost.
Casino aren't in this business to loose money.
Windows XP Embedded - Inconceivable (Score:3, Funny)
System requirements [microsoft.com]
Re:Windows XP Deeply Embedded (Score:2)
Embedded? It means that the kiosk weighs so much by the time you've got it all optioned up to work acceptably, that it embeds itself in the pavement.
512MB plus gigabytes of disk for basic OS plus database components? Suuure... I can probably give you that in 512K of RAM and on one floppy! Give me a superdrive floppy and and 16MB and you can have a complete, all-singing, all dancing diskless kiosk (Galeon on FB on Linux) built out of commodity OSS components.
You want me to do embedded XP? No worries, but you supply the shovel.
Monolith vs Components (Score:2, Interesting)
XP == ? (Score:2)
eXtra Pieces?
comes in X Pieces, some assembly required?
you've heard about bits, well here they are... the XP From Scratch distribution... (-:
Duh! (Score:2)
So how is WinXP, THE biggest bloatware out there in terms of an OS (who needs all the media crap they stuffed in it when I've got all the media programs I could ever want for free on the 'net?), going to even come close to competing in an 'embedded' market place? It is THE quintessential definition of a "microprocessor of OS's" versus something like PalmOS, which I would consider much more of a "microcontroller of OS's." Microsoft is making some stupid moves, and their shareholders had better realize that MS has a good (albeit, evil) business model for making money, but they're just not going to rake in the dough with this 'latest, greatest' XP system like they hope to. It's not new or revolutionary, just shitload's worth of bug fixes to what people wanted out of Win95 originally. And I, like most people who want to be on the cutting edge of technology, am not seeing a need, or even a want, to make the upgrade to WinXP for a long time.
Re:Screw XP (Score:2)
Re:How fun (Score:3, Flamebait)
Wanted: Internet browser. Microsoft is seeking qualified and motivated individuals to browse the net and read Usenet news. Must possess abilities with WWW and NNTP technologies as well as verbal and written communication skills.
Hell, I know some people who would probably jump at the opportunity to browse the net and get paid for it. (Well, at least have it as part of their job description. :) )
Re:How fun (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Activation? (Score:2)
My experience with people who work in a manufacturing business (like building ATMs) is that management is a bit more sensitive to costs than, say, your typical pointy-haired IT manager. Waltzing into a meeting and stating that you think it's a good idea to increase costs by $300 and all you're going to get is a modest (and debatable) improvement in the user interface might require a lot of justification. ``Because it's from Microsoft'' might not be enough to convince the boss when he askes why you want to replace perfectly good, working code in the product line. Like someone mentioned in another post: A Z80 could do the things required in an ATM. And how much do those cost?
Personally, it sickens me to see people's thinking limited to single turning of the gears and coming up with a solution without considering alternatives. Must be something they're putting in the cafeteria food in schools nowadays that is dulling their thought processes.
Please insert the Windows XP installation media... (Score:2)
Microsoft is not used to handing out money for anything except marketing, so I need to search the installation medium for the necessary driver.
Please wait, and ignore any ghasps or screams of pain and rage which may occur during this process.
[--OK--] [--Easier-to-forget-about-the-money--] [--Too-drunk-to-care--] [--Screenshot--]
.
Friend (Score:2)
Or, in the case of the Reign of Terror and/or sundry ``Communist'' regimes, killing each other for having an ``imaginary friend.''
imagine that [wyattmuseum.com]... or that [pathlights.com]... or that [suite101.com]...
This IS Lucent, WinModem maker, being discussed? (Score:2)
That's so the tech support people for the other Windows-based products get a legitimate break every so often from all of those whining users. And the users feel better because the tech support people have had a taste of what they face every morning. Sorry, our 'phone system went down and we couldn't find the installation CD.