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Programming IT Technology

Sony, Toshiba And IBM To Develop New OS 245

Posted by timothy from the more-the-merrier dept.
gaijin writes: "According to this article in the English version of the Japanese newspaper 'Daily Yomirui', Sony will use its experience developing the PS2 OS (hey, wasn't it Linux based?) and work with Toshiba and IBM at the hardware side to create a new OS that 'would allow personal computers and home appliances to exchange huge volumes of data, including the high-resolution graphics of a television screen, through a broadband connection.'"
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Sony, Toshiba And IBM To Develop New OS More

Sony, Toshiba And IBM To Develop New OS

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  • Sounds to me . . . (Score:2, Interesting)

    by acceleriter ( 231439 )
    . . . like they'll probably be licensing that Microsoft Digital "Rights" Management patent. I would beware of any OS offering from the likes of Sony that claims to be all about media over a broadband connection.

  • The possibilities are endless! (Score:3, Funny)

    by ackthpt ( 218170 ) on Saturday January 05, 2002 @10:41AM (#2790448) Homepage Journal
    a new OS that 'would allow personal computers and home appliances to exchange huge volumes of data, including the high-resolution graphics of a television screen,

    Wonderful. I could watch the cheese in the fridge grow mold on the TV, or even put it on the web. Beats Survivor, anyway.

  • ... work with Toshiba and IBM at the hardware side to create a new OS that "would allow personal computers and home appliances to exchange huge volumes of data, including the high-resolution graphics of a television screen, through a broadband connection."

    Whoa... I just thought of a great name for that...

    here it is: "Cable TV"! I get copyright dibs!

    Seriously, though, people have been building OSes that were about "moving data" since the beginnings of UNIX. That's what operating systems and computers are for.

    PS: does anyone else find it odd that this was posted under "Apache"?
    • I get copyright dibs!

      Just remember that Stimpy has Prior Art for the Cheese-O-Phone.

      Beats me why they don't pickup BeOS or just run with Linux... Closing source or proprietary technology is probably it. Sony's wicked with proprietary interfaces and devices.

  • why is this under the apache catagory?
    (3rd time i tried this.. why is there a 20 second delay between hitting reply and hitting submit?)
  • Since when was a telivision image high resolution?
    I isn't somewhere around 352x240?
  • Why is this filed under "Apache"? It's not mentioned in the story that I can find.

  • Why? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Ami Ganguli ( 921 ) on Saturday January 05, 2002 @10:44AM (#2790457) Homepage

    It looks to me like they want something with Digital Rights Management, but don't want to work with Microsoft (and Linux is too open). Evil.

    It's also worth noting that 2005 is about the time the next Playstation should emerge. That's not a coincidence.

    • BING!!! Give that man a cigar. I think that's exactly right.
      • Putting DRM in Linux (as it is on Windows today) could take couple of days for 2 programmers to implement - this is really an easy part.

        I do think that OS that they're talking about is Linux based one since IBM knows and embrases Linux, Toshiba (in Japan) sells quite a lot of Linux servers there (and anyway - the Toshiba part here is to manufacture the semi-conductors like they make today the Emotion engine for Sony Playstation 2), and of course - Sony got lots of experience with Linux since Linux is the development OS for the PlayStation 2.
        • They'll probably base it on some BSD variant. That way most of the Linux experience will transfer, and a lot of the applications can also be transferred with minimal effort. But by basing it off BSD they don't need to release any more source than they want to.
    • It looks to me like they want something with Digital Rights Management, but don't want to work with Microsoft (and Linux is too open). Evil.

      Evil vrs Evil. As they fight and splinter their standards those who co-operate most with all shall win. What vendor would dare diss the three challengers of the M$ Domination? They shall be everywhere and their stuff will work and it will be better than M$ psuedo standards like AVI. The greedheads will punish each other.

      Digital Rights Management, that is more disturbing. We know they want to put it in hardware. That M$ will also pay toll to the new trolls is cold comfort if such stuff is used as the thin wedge of a legislative attack on general computing with hardware backing it up.

  • I'm no expert... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by green pizza ( 159161 ) on Saturday January 05, 2002 @10:45AM (#2790463) Homepage
    ... but this sounds like more of a PR op than anything else. Since when has a game console shuffled more data than a workstation or even a desktop computer? And since when has a TV (even an HDTV) been higher resolution than a 21" monitor?

    It's PR BS, but hopefully the OS will have some merit. Choice is good.
    • And since when has a TV (even an HDTV) been higher resolution than a 21" monitor?
      Hopefully, by then we'll all have huge, widescreen HDTVs. I can dream, can't I?
    • I concurr. This is likely a PR tool by the three companies. The article gives no details on how they intend to push this. By the time it hits the streets and Windows XP 2005 is out it couldn't compete in the PC marketplace. The OS battle is already raging. Familiarity is the sword M$ wields that keeps others from switching to Linux or *BSD.

      I highly doubt a new OS to debute in 2005 for the stated purpose of moving high-volumes of data around via broadband will float. By that time M$ will have developed a highly proprietary OS (maybe with the support of the RIAA to enable stronger copy-protection). Give the linux community a year and we'll have that in spades.

  • What's This About TV Resolution? (Score:4, Funny)

    by Lethyos ( 408045 ) on Saturday January 05, 2002 @10:48AM (#2790465) Journal
    exchange huge volumes of data, including the high-resolution graphics of a television screen

    So, the product is already vaporware?
  • Its of coz good that theyre making
    some new r&d but this thing
    seems to be just a solution for "simple mass"
    ( sorry if offending some1 ;-)..

  • Huh?? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by hyrdra ( 260687 ) on Saturday January 05, 2002 @10:52AM (#2790470) Homepage Journal
    What does this new OS provide that we don't already have and are not already capable of doing? You can already watch TV on your computer and view your computer's monitor on your TV. Regular NTSC resolution isn't that high anyway and is easily handled by a computer. You can already store television programs on your computer -- in fact, we even have things like TiVo which are consumer devices just for that purpose.

    Also via X-10 hardware we can control just about anything from our PCs -- including air conditioners. The problem isn't availability, it's just that most people don't really need to control their microwave or other hosehold devices/appliances from their computer.

    The new OS sounds cool, and the companies developing it are respectful and would no doubt produce a quality product, but there is much more information needed besides the media-PR blurb given in that article. I get the sense that this paper didn't have anything else to write about so it made something up, because throughout the article not one department or source is mentioned besides "industry sources". I would also think the three huge companies mentioned -- IBM, Toshiba, and Sony wouldn't work together anyway. Each one would be more than capable of developing and operating system on their own, and IMO there would be too much departmental overlay to justify cooperation with two other huge firms.

    Work on the OS project has not yet begun, but the three companies have begun joint development of next-generation semiconductors that will be hundreds of times faster than current integrated chips and feature networking functions.

    Yeah, and the're also working on a way to colonize Mars, too.
    • What does this new OS provide that we don't already have and are not already capable of doing?

      It provides hype.

      Give a man a fish and he eats for one day. Teach him how to fish, and though he'll eat for a lifetime, he'll call you a miser for not giving him your fish.
    • most people don't really need to control their microwave or other hosehold devices/appliances from their computer.

      People do need this! They just don't realize it. And a TV has important advantages over the computer. Like this:

      Put food in micro, run to TV, interrupt viewers, fumble with menus, viewers get impatient, keep fumbling, lots of arguments and gestures, finally find menu to start micro, viewers chase you away. After a while micro beeps "ready", again interrupt viewers, fumble with menus, viewers almost get violent, finally find menu to open micro door, again get chased away. Run to micro and take food.

      People don't realize it, but most of us sit still far too much. This invention will help us get badly needed exercise.

      Give a man a fish and he eats for one day. Teach him how to fish, and though he'll eat for a lifetime, he'll call you a miser for not giving him your fish.
    • What does this new OS provide that we don't already have and are not already capable of doing?

      Hopefully you will be able to do all of those things without paying an huge fee every two years to M$ and buying a new computer. Sure, you can do these things with free tools now but people don't seem to be willing to take the time to do it. These new masters may make it easier for those who do not want to be free.

    • > IBM, Toshiba, and Sony wouldn't work together anyway

      It's definately in IBM's interest:

      [from the article]:
      > TVs with the OS installed will be much
      > smaller as they will not need a tuner, the
      > sources said.

      How are they to battle the monopoly-leverage that the MS HomeStation will have? Built it into the TV -- and they need the big TV makers Sony and Toshiba to pull it off.

      Sony and Toshiba probably like it because they will get cheap chips and ASICs from IBM. If I remeber correctly there are a few IBM chips in the PS2. . .

      This atricle is vaporware and hype, however the partnership is actually very logical and this does seem plausible. . .

      A few years ago I wuld have never guessed these bed partners, though. . .
      • how large can the tuner be, compared to anything that can run this full OS? there's a tv tuner, dvd decoder, 3d graphics chip, firewire interface, etc. all on one single agp card right now. I can't imagine that all of the tv's electronics could therefore be all that large to begin with.. you figure laptops, if you remove the drives, keyboard, screen, etc. still have enough tech in them to drive an AGP card (just not the right plug).. and much more stuff you won't need (keyboard interface, i/o controllers, 900mhz mobile processors, etc.).. ?
    • Yep, you can watch telly and view your computer's monitor on TV, even watch DVDs and control devices from your computer. Out of the box, this can only be done on Windows. Linux can do it, but only with a lot of work (been there).

      What they're probably after is a standard that could cover EVERYTHING, out of the box, plug and play. This currently exists. Unfortunately that's controlled by the last oufit they'd want in charge: Microsoft. MS aren't known for playing ball (but then nor is Sony!). Every time you use an MS product you give them more control.

      Not to mention all of the baggage MS's incessant drive for integration gives us, as we've seen repeatedly over the past few months. Who can be sure of what other issues remain, caused by something you'll never used that is linked to the core system? I wouldn't want to release that in my new VCR or TV, so they'd probably want to engineer something from the ground up to be as simple and secure as possible.

      They could theoretically fork off a copy of linux, but there's still the GPL to contend with, which causes major problems with the integration of patented or licensed technologies. Sure patents and closed licensing is bad, but they're still going to need to do it. Technology vendors that won't (or can't) release the source to their driver software can't support a Linux-based system properly, as the drivers are out of date as soon as the next kernel release comes along. Even when you have the source, recompiling it is something no consumer should need to do.

      Not to mention some people (whether right or wrong) would consider keeping the source to some new OS closed (or away from MS at least!) a benefit.

      As to whether anything will come of this is anybody's guess, but it's certainly true that for some embedded applications the current set of offerings out there aren't particularly palatable.

    • Not new but maybe useful.. (Score:4, Interesting)

      by MikeFM ( 12491 ) on Saturday January 05, 2002 @12:04PM (#2790624) Homepage Journal
      I don't know how many times when hauling my VCD, DVD, consoles, etc around that I've wished they could just jack into the local WiFi network and then the tv could pick the feed it wanted to receive by checking a 'Network Neighborhood' type of thing that looked just like picking a channel. You can send video over a WiFi network without any problems so all you need is a tv smart enough to receive it.

      Then to be even better they cold make the power cords optional so you could go 'unjacked' for a while and then just plug the system back in later to play/charge. The PS1 already has battery packs so why not DVD players and newer consoles. :)

      Not sure why they need a new OS for it. A simple protocol that agrees on the type of video stream and a way to communicate available channels should work. You could even offer encryption of streams if you wanted to make sure your kids couldn't see the porn your watching. Screw the $400 million. Someone hire me for a year and I'll develop it myself using Linux and standard embedded components. :)
      • erm have you ever actually worked in TV industry ?

        head end cost 1/2 million while STB (set top box) under $150

        but yes I know ship 2-3 million STB's and that exeeds the cost if the head end but companies (broadcasters) still look at the cost of head end (servers) as the real cost

        Linux as a STB is already there look at the ATI chip

        strangely its MIPS based much like the PS2 (-;

        broadcast will be done on RTSP and linux can do this really easy AND has alll the add ons such as web browseing, email and such that a digital world demands

        look who cares about linux on x86 but where it willll go on MIPS & ARM and maybe Power THAT will be the turning point

        regards

        john jones

    • Re:Huh?? (Score:1, Funny)

      by Anonymous Coward
      it's just that most people don't really need to control their microwave or other hosehold devices/appliances from their computer

      Hosehold devices/appliances? Is it just my imagination, or is that dirty? And, if it is, where can I get said devices. I want to control them from my computer!

  • yomiuri (Score:3, Insightful)

    by shoganainaa ( 246052 ) on Saturday January 05, 2002 @10:53AM (#2790471)
    don't forget the source of this info either.
    The Daily Yomiuri is the Japanese equivalent of the New York Post. Big flashy stories for the masses but mostly sensationalized.

    • Re:yomiuri (Score:2, Interesting)

      by macshit ( 157376 )
      No it's not.

      It's more like, oh, say, the pittsburgh press -- boring, a bit lightweight, and sometimes annoyingly conservative, but basically solid.

      I'd describe the various Japanese English-language dailies like this:
      • The Japan Times - The biggest, I'm not sure why. Seems to hire anyone who can write in English, and clearly written by and for expatriates. A typical editorial is something like `We Think Beer is Good.'
      • The Daily Yomiuri - Like I said above, somewhat boring, but seems more like a real newspaper (presumably because they can borrow resources from their parent newspaper). Occasionally has suspicious articles touting various Yomiuri-connected events.
      • The Asahi Evening News - Not that bad generally, but occasionally bat-wing loony (like a huge front-page article praising Imelda Marcos to high heaven).

      None of them are great, but none of them is horrible. I'd go so far to say that the Daily Yomiuri is the least bad of the bunch.

      [Note - I gave up reading any of these about a year ago, so perhaps they've all changed in the meantime.]

  • PS2 & Linux. (Score:4, Informative)

    by EnglishTim ( 9662 ) on Saturday January 05, 2002 @10:53AM (#2790472)
    The PS2 does not run any form of Linux.
    However, Linux is used on the PS2 Dev kits for developing games. (The PS2 Dev kits are effectively PCs with a built-in PS2 - the dev kits emulates the DVD/CDROM etc... if needed)

  • Huge tuners !!?? (Score:5, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday January 05, 2002 @10:54AM (#2790473)
    "TVs with the OS installed will be much smaller as they will not need a tuner, the sources said."

    And we all know how huge TV-tuner-modules are.
    At least several cubic centimeters !
    • Quality journalism again...

      Someone mod up the parent - it's a good point.
      My TV tuner is about 10x6x1.bit centimeters.
      Sooo massssive.

      And you'll be needing a tuner somewhere unless you want to rely on broadband delivery(??)

    • Re:Huge tuners !!?? (Score:3, Insightful)

      by rtaylor ( 70602 )
      Realizing it was intended to be a joke it should be noted that several cubic centimeters can not be easily pushed into something the size of a PDA or cell phone with all the other stuff in the same package.

      I'm picturing something like a portable TIVO or IPod for video with a 3inch to 7inch display.

  • Plusses and minuses. (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Alien54 ( 180860 ) on Saturday January 05, 2002 @10:59AM (#2790484) Journal
    Probably would dispense with a gui for most applications. get rid of all that overhead. Especially since the peripheral device (tv, vcr, etc) would supply its own interface. But we have this:
    According to the sources, local area networks will be used to connect PCs installed with the operating system to TVs, air conditioners, refrigerators and other home appliances, giving great flexibility in controlling home appliances. But we also have this

    Strangely this ties in well with the comments I made (1 [slashdot.org], 2 [slashdot.org]) on the X Box sequel story [slashdot.org] The possibility of abuse of any technology has to be watched. This story on the Whitdot website [slashdot.org] reveals one aspect of business leaders trying to use technology to their advantadge.

    There are many advantadges to this technology, but there is the flip side of this.

    For example, the X-Box sequel fits nicely into this kind of setup. And obviously MS wants to be in this market. Do you trust Microsoft?

    Actually, it is more a matter of the advatadges of the technology vs your trust or lack of trust for the big corporations. Which gets us into the whole Anti Globalist thing [indymedia.org]. I am not so sure of that as well. It spins out of control into a flame war of the evils of technology vs the evils of no technology really fast.

  • Interesting... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by A Commentor ( 459578 ) on Saturday January 05, 2002 @10:59AM (#2790487) Homepage
    ...developing a new operating system (OS) to be released in 2005 for computers capable of high-speed Internet connections...

    Ok, 3-4 years(depending on when in 2005 it's released) of development for a new OS. But what is it going to provide...
    ...OS would allow personal computers and home appliances to exchange huge volumes of data, including the high-resolution graphics of a television screen, through a broadband connection.

    Current OSs can transfer large amounts of data, it's the broadband connections that are lagging behind... My P-90 can easily handle the 128Kb/s uplink my DSL provides... And the number of people paying for Broadband is not increasing at the rate everyone expected... The research needs to be how to get faster broadband at a cheaper price.
    According to the sources, the firms intend to make the source code of the finished OS available to other companies ...

    Even though this looks like open source, they have worded it carefully: 'to other companies', doesn't say 'free' so it could be available to other companies at a price that no individuals could afford it.
    Users will be able to store television programs in their PCs and watch them at any time and any place.

    Doubtful Sony would allow something like that, without charging a arm-and-leg for it...

    • Re:Interesting... (Score:2, Interesting)

      by pointym5 ( 128908 )
      Doubtful Sony would allow something like that, without charging a arm-and-leg for it...


      DRM! It's so freaking obvious. It's all about a world where everything is cryptographically secured so that the delivery of copyrighted material - the whole experience - can be controlled by the copyright holder.

    • Re:Interesting... (Score:2, Interesting)

      by goatboy_14 ( 527832 )
      And the number of people paying for Broadband is not increasing at the rate everyone expected... The research needs to be how to get faster broadband at a cheaper price.
      This is the only thing I disagree with in you're post. As I see it, it's availability, not speed that's keeping broadband away from most people. How far can a DSL or cable signal go from your local telco now, one mile, two? For the other 80% of the world (which unfortunatly includes me), we are stuck with crappy dialup connections. I really feal people need to wake up already and stop researching faster connections and research how to get more distaince for their existing speeds. I would gladly pay $50/mo for a 256k connection and a ping under 75ms. But alas, that's not available in my area. v_v

      (Please forgive me for going completely off topic and rambeling on, it's really late here and I'm about to recover from an all nighter pinging at ~500ms. sigh.)
    • Current OSs can transfer large amounts of data, it's the broadband connections that are lagging behind... My P-90 can easily handle the 128Kb/s uplink my DSL provides... And the number of people paying for Broadband is not increasing at the rate everyone expected... The research needs to be how to get faster broadband at a cheaper price.

      The spread is even more than that. In 1994 we had two T1s to the internet via uunet. One was dedicated to our webserver... a P60 running Windows NT3.5 and Netscape Enterprise Webserver. About 75% of our content was static, but there was a good amount of CGIs and background tasks (email, dns, and ftp daemons). And yet, our P60 worked like a charm. Sure, we should have used Linux or maybe even Solaris on a SPARC, something a bit more suited to the task... but it worked, even when the T1 was fully saturated.

  • Another OS? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by rbeattie ( 43187 ) <russ@russellbeattie.com> on Saturday January 05, 2002 @11:00AM (#2790490) Homepage
    Someone has to say it, so it might as well be me. Does the world need ANOTHER OS? Especially one that won't launch for another 3 years and will obviously be tied down to specific platforms, technologies and underlying agendas (Sony). How many different OS's can you think of off the top of your head already? And isn't IBM hard-core Linux now?

    According to the article, the OS will be able to run on PCs and be accessible from your TV (for the elderly the article says) and enable tasks impossible using current technology. Like WHAT? What can a whole new OS provide that 3 years of development on the Linix kernel or some other existing OS can't? Or is this $400,000,000 to recreate the wheel?

    2005: I get to use Microsoft at work, Linux on my web server, Simbian on my phone and some other random Sony OS on my television... joy.

    -Russ

    Man - did I wake up on the wrong side of the bed this morning or what...

    • A multitude of OS:s (Score:5, Insightful)

      by adadun ( 267785 ) on Saturday January 05, 2002 @11:21AM (#2790529) Homepage
      2005: I get to use Microsoft at work, Linux on my web server, Simbian on my phone and some other random Sony OS on my television... joy.
      Most people unknowingly use a multitude of operating systems in their daily lives, even today. They use OSE on their cellphone, RTXC on their microwave oven, pSOS in their car's control system, RTEMS in their stereo system, vxWorks in their dishwasher and perhaps even Linux in their VCR. Almost every device we use today is equipped with embedded small computers and they all run different operating systems.

      We shouldn't be striving for a "standard" OS in all those appliences. (Who would want to run Windows in their embedded systems anyway? Yes, Microsoft would probably succeed in making Windows the standard OS in such a case...) We should be setting standards for exchanging data between those systems instead.

      TCP/IP is a good carrier of the information exchange - the global Internet has proven that. But service discovery, naming and security are issues that needs to be delt with. Hopefully, this will be developed out in the open just like the Internet protocols once were developed and not beind closed doors, patents and intelectual property lock-ins.
      • You're right, we don't need one system for everything (I was just whinging in that last part).

        But my point is we have an abundance of OS's for every conceivable niche already. Why not strive to make these systems better instead of adding yet another OS to interop with? The magic of TCP/IP and maybe XML is all well and good, but every new OS expands the problems of interchange between systems exponentially. And Sony? I doubt words like "open" and "free" are in their vocabulary, let alone their new OS.

        -R
      • We should be setting standards for exchanging data between those systems instead

        To establish a standard we first need to make sure inputs are sought from all parties involved and the standardization process is transparent to the public.
        Now the problem is some big companies are not willing to abide by an 'open' standard, instead, they close the door and just create a proprietary standard so that everyone who uses it will have to pay(either directly or indirectly). That is true users who don't want to adopt can create their own standard, but as long as those companies don't give in, this doesn't solve the heterogeneity problem. Micro$oft comes in mind when I am saying this.

  • here it is. (Score:1, Redundant)

    by willum448 ( 461084 )
    New OS would link PCs, gadgets

    Yomiuri Shimbun

    Sony Computer Entertainment Inc. (SCE), Toshiba Corp. and IBM Corp. have reached a basic agreement on jointly developing a new operating system (OS) to be released in 2005 for computers capable of high-speed Internet connections, industry sources said Friday.

    The OS would allow personal computers and home appliances to exchange huge volumes of data, including the high-resolution graphics of a television screen, through a broadband connection.

    Users would also be able to control their home appliances via PC, and watch television programs and movies on their PC at any location.

    According to the sources, the firms intend to make the source code of the finished OS available to other companies in an attempt to make it the global standard of the anticipated high-speed Internet age.

    SCE will bring to the project software development skills honed through its work on two PlayStation video game consoles and their attendant software. Toshiba and IBM will provide semiconductor and computer manufacturing expertise.

    Work on the OS project has not yet begun, but the three companies have begun joint development of next-generation semiconductors that will be hundreds of times faster than current integrated chips and feature networking functions.

    The three companies predict the entire development cost will run to about 400 million dollars (52 billion yen).

    According to the sources, local area networks will be used to connect PCs installed with the operating system to TVs, air conditioners, refrigerators and other home appliances, giving great flexibility in controlling home appliances.

    The larger bandwidth of a broadband connection will open the door to the downloading of movies, TV programs and video games via the Internet, the sources said.

    Users will be able to store television programs in their PCs and watch them at any time and any place.

    TVs with the OS installed will be much smaller as they will not need a tuner, the sources said.

    All controls will be accessible from the TV screen, making the system more user-friendly, the sources said, an important feature when considering the elderly and those unfamiliar with using PCs.

    The OS will also enable tasks impossible for current technology, the sources said.

    • According to the sources, the firms intend to make the source code of the finished OS available to other companies in an attempt to make it the global standard of the anticipated high-speed Internet age.

      If they are going to do that, why not just spend the $400 million on adding the needed features to linux? They would already start out with a good system that many people already are familiar with and the GPL would insure that the source would be available. This would satisfy their goals unless they wanted to sell the licenses to the source code and be able to restrict it to those who paid for it. If they wanted to do that, they could just take one of the BSD systems and do the same thing. Why create a whole new system from scratch when systems already exist that do most of what they want but may be a litte rough around the edges? Leverage the work that others have already done and is freely available and spend your money polishing it up. IMHO, that's basically what Apple did with OS X.

  • But why can't I get the source?
  • While it's nice and all to build a whole new OS to accomplish what they're trying to do, couldn't all they're trying to do be accomplished using existing VNC and streamed media technology?

  • the OS so far is missing... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by dollargonzo ( 519030 ) on Saturday January 05, 2002 @11:18AM (#2790523) Homepage
    well, first of all, they seem to be hiding something that the story is not telling us. all the things that they say an OS can do, so can linux and windows and just about every other mature OS on the market today.

    if they were developing a new OS, they need to do one thing: the thing that makes the Palm different from the Newton: all data is integrated into the OS, making it very easy to communicate between different programs. that is what most OSs lack. it is very difficult to make programs communicate with each other, except maybe with FIFO files that take up extra space. it is not really possible for one program to write in the memory of another. sure that is 3V1L for desktop and server OSs b/c they are VERY vulnerable, but its perfect for an OS that is supposed to communicate with appliances.

    Now, if you have been thinking to mod me down because I did not mention grep on unix..wait right there! grep is a great tool, but it still has its extents. you cannot do everything with grep. programs can use each other's data (making it very useful for doing complicated tasks via simple programs) but they cannot in the full sense of the word intercommunicate. most importantly, grep is essentially a one way connection.

    QED
    • also, just another thought: even with all the stuff that was mentioned...couldn't the integration of data (a server with a rigid protocol of some sort) be run on TOP of the kernel. so, use the linux kernel, and instead of spending precious money (400 million) and time (it'll take a while) developing a new kernel, use what exists and instead spend your time on writing a server that allows for programs to communicate better that runs on top of imbedded linux.

      QED
    • What is wrong with using sockets to communicate between applications?
      On NT, you've pipes (not the normal ones you get in CLI) that allows bi-directional data transfer from application in an easy and fast way.
  • Ok - I'm kind of surprised that IBM would even be involved with this. IBM could write this themselves - if there was any kind of need for it at all. Sony is looking to expand the PS2 platform for sure (could help them) - but Toshiba??? - these guys can't even get their "computer products" web site to work right.

    No kidding - go try and configure a server from their web site - won't happen. And their eq sucks - period. I'm not really trying to troll them - but it has been very painful working with their stuff - trust me. You want them to write an OS for ya???

    AND why oh why does everone thing that I need to watch TV (aka - boob tube) on my PC and my Ipaq and my laptop and my tablet PC or whatever you happen to be using - in my car, in the shitter, outside playing with the kid - gods.... I hardly watch TV on my TV - and have never on anything else... I don't have tivo (spelling?) or any of that crap - and I bet most people do not either - its just not that important.

    What is this going to do for ANYBODY in any kind of major market?

    Not to mention the fact that "Broadband" is a wet dream at this point in time for most people. And I don't really see this picking up that much over the next 3 years or so.

    Maybe its me - but I just don't get it.

    • Re:geesh (Score:2, Insightful)

      by ksheff ( 2406 )

      According to the story, Sony is going to be writing the OS. IBM and Toshiba are going to be making the chips. I believe IBM makes the cpus for the GameCube, so it would be somewhat funny to have the guts of competing game consoles come from the same factory. IBM probably doesn't care what OS Sony runs on it as long as it helps keeps their chip plants running at capacity.

      I hardly ever watch TV anymore too. I'm not interested in the programs being aired and I'm busy doing other things. However, for many other people, the home entertainment center is the focal point of life inside their home. It's practically all they do after they get home from work. I have a brother and sister (both 30 or over) that you can't even talk to if they are watching TV. The TV has 100% of their attention and to have a conversation with them, you have to turn it off or physically block the view of the screen. It's like when they watch TV, they go into a trance. Adults and kids like these are the ones that Sony & Co are gunning the latest and greatest TV equipment for.

  • And why not? (Score:3, Funny)

    by Bowie J. Poag ( 16898 ) on Saturday January 05, 2002 @11:25AM (#2790538) Homepage

    "When Sony and IBM get together it means nothing but trouble"..

    Careful, you might upset YRO readers. Times are tough -- and theres only so much tinfoil to go around, you know.

  • compatability (Score:3, Interesting)

    by signore pablo ( 544088 ) on Saturday January 05, 2002 @11:28AM (#2790544)
    The only good thing to come out of Microsoft as a monopoly is that many devices follow their "standard". Yes, it is true that Microsoft ignores industry standards, but at least they create a conformity that allows many devices to work together without too much of a problem.
    Look at the cell phone market in the United States and you will see what a hinderance lack of standards can be. The US is very far behind in cell phone techonology with regards to many other nations, and mostly because of big companies each willing to push their own proprietary technology because they believe they will be profiting more in the long run.
    Well, back to the new OS, what's gonna happen here? The description of services offered, control their home appliances via PC, and watch television programs and movies on their PC at any location , sound great, but how are Microsoft and even Apple gonna react to this? They obviously both want a piece of that market share and I'm not sure if they are all willing to conform to each others standards.
    Ideally, every company would be small and would have to follow industry standards. These standards would be imposed by a legislation with representation from all the developers. Instead what we get is a couple people fighting like babies over who will dictate the future standard. No one wins, and technology gets screwed.
    • Wow. Like Samba? Last I checked, MS re-implemented their SMB protocol slightly differently each time they released a new version of Windows. I'm sorry, but I have no respect for MS standards in the industry, because it is obvious that they can't even set standards within their own company.
  • This kinda sounds like Bill Buxton and Mark Weisers thoughts on Ubiquitous Computing and Calm Technology.

    Then one can look upon this new OS as an alternative to the .Net strategy in that the latter concentrates on providing services confined within a computer (with the slight modification of the TabletPC which is by all means Weiser and Buxtons inventions at Xerox aswell) while the former sorta reaches beyond the computer itself and further into the real world.

    I think this is a healthy step and hopefully one that will help decentralize computing. Personally I'd love to be able to do computerstuff in a much more casual and relaxed fashion than what's possible today.

    My two cents anyway.

  • Doomed from the start? (Score:5, Informative)

    by Phil Wherry ( 122138 ) on Saturday January 05, 2002 @11:31AM (#2790548) Homepage
    While nothing's 100% certain, history suggests that efforts like this might have difficulty achieving success.

    There have been a number of fairly spectacular failures in this arena. Consider, for example:
    • Taligent. This was an Apple-HP-IBM joint venture aimed at developing operating system software. Four years passed, and much money was spent. Much hype was produced, but I don't think they ever shipped a product.
    • Kaleida. This was an Apple-IBM joint venture aimed at developing (yep!) operating system software. No product resulted.
    • OS/2. This one's a little different since a product (and, for that matter, a pretty good one) resulted. But pride-of-ownership and internal competition issues killed the product anyway.

    Software development successes seem to start with a small team who understand the position and purpose of the product. Once that's achieved, then the team can scale up. I'd be concerned that the three companies behind this announcement are likely to have difficulty assembling an appropriately small and well-focused core team.
    • Taligent became reborn as the OO C++ frameworks that power (among other things) VisualAge, and so has been extensively used by OS/2 and AIX developers. They're actually very nice frameworks, unmatched by anything except OpenStep (although Java is gradually improving to that point). I believe IBM and Apple were also able to reuse some of Taligent's technology in the development of OpenDoc. So while it never really materialized into a full operating system, massive portions of Taligent did live on.

      Kaleida, meanwhile, was not system software. Its function was almost identical to that of Macromedia Director. Furthermore, Kaleida was finished, and released as a product called ScriptX. The only problem was that, by that time, Macromedia Director had been out long enough to saturate the market, leading ScriptX to a quick and untimely demise as it found no buyers.

      Your overall point's fine, but I thought it worth pointing out that two of those three technologies lived on well after their death and one was not system software.
    • There have been a number of fairly spectacular failures in this arena. Consider, for example

      You forgot OSF/1 which was more or less "All Unix venders except Sun and AT&T vs. Sun and AT&T". It was a failure in that only DEC really used it, and even there it appears dead now.

      Of corse there is also Solaris which was really a joint design Sun and AT&T, but not really the same as the others since AT&T never intended to use it, and never announced that they would. It is a failure in that it sucks :-), on the other hand it is a raging commercial success, or at least the closes Unix has to one.

      It's hard to imagine how much farther along they would be if they had stuck to the path they are on with SunOS4, at least technically. Politically they got more business support, so maybe if they hadn't gone the way the did they might not be the dominant Unix player...that still doesn't make me like Solaris though.

      I can't think of any commercially successful joint venture OSes...but, wasn't Multics a joint venture? Not commercially successful by a long shot, but very very influential...

  • I really don't think that this is good for developers, it'll decrease their value a lot, soon their wages will be pretty cheap. We've got more than enough OS's out there and a pretty huge collection of software to choose from.

    • Re:Don't we have enough OS's already? (Score:1, Interesting)

      by Anonymous Coward
      I disagree. I think that we need more OS's. The Microsoft hegemony and the 'back to the future' Linux are stifiling the development of new OS technology.

      We need new blood, not stagnation.

  • Hard to Hack? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by peterdaly ( 123554 ) <{petedaly} {at} {ix.netcom.com}> on Saturday January 05, 2002 @11:52AM (#2790585)
    If they build the OS from the ground up, it may take a lot longer to hack the thing then say, a Tivo for instance. While Tivo has been cool about it, I'm sure that Sony doesn't want that to happent to them if they can help it.

    While it is easy to hack into a Tivo, one of the reasons is bacause it runs a common user OS. Openness was one of the reason Tivo has had a fairly low cost to get into the market. Sony doesn't care about cost in an instance that this. I bet they were sitting around some conference room talking about how they want PC like features, but not PC like hackability. Some bright guy threw out, "well, we just make our own OS then...the way we want it." Doesn't sound too far fetched to me. Don't have to allow console access from a serial port to configure...make you own serial protocol, command structure, serial cable connections, etc, etc. It is still hackable, but not by the average geek, even with instructions. Even if you do get into to some useful interface...what then?

    -Pete
  • Why on earth would anyone (other than Micro$oft) design an OS for something where all of the substance is contained in the protocols?

    A new set of protocols for this sort of thing, suppoted by applications sold in appliances, set-top-boxes, and games and available on commercial and non-commercial software for a variety of OSs seems more like the right model for this.

  • For Televisions (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Perdo ( 151843 ) on Saturday January 05, 2002 @12:01PM (#2790614) Homepage Journal
    Sony sells a heck of a lot more TVs than playstations. Perhaps this new OS is aimed at the much more ubiqitious TV market. Combine that with IBM's support of CPRM. Welcome to pay-per-veiw tivo work-alike. Shure would make the MPAA Happy.
  • BeIA has all of these features and a lot more, too bad no one was really looking while Microsoft quietly crushed any competition to their OS.
  • I read this denial way before slashdot posted the story. Seems some local newspapers are way ahead of slashdot.

    http://www.timesofindia.com/articleshow.asp?art_ id =306808047

  • the BIG-BUGGER-TUNERS (Score:3, Insightful)

    by el'gwato ( 232384 ) <djukes@sols.uq.edu.au> on Saturday January 05, 2002 @12:21PM (#2790667) Homepage
    "TVs with the OS installed will be much smaller as they will not need a tuner, the sources said."
    Heh... I worked as a TV technician for a year or so while I was out of work, tuners were 6cm x 2cm then in new TV's.... I always thought it was the tube and gun that made them so bulky... :)
  • BeOS redux?

    PS> Great. But will it run UT?
  • Users will be able to store television programs in their PCs and watch them at any time and any place.

    ...All the major television and film studios will file a lawsuit immediately if it doesn't contain built-in, unavoidable protection for their content.

    The sad paradox here being, of course, that if it DOES have the built-in, unavoidable protection, nobody will want it.
  • The person writing the story obviously got some out of date marketing material - fitting an ADSL modem into an MCA bus should indeed work on your PS/2.

  • And so it begins ... (Score:2, Interesting)

    by kevina ( 14659 )
    And so it begins (like it has not already) ...

    What the devil am I talking about, I am talking the the assault on our freedom and in particular the freedom of fair use.

    This device is precisely the thing the the media industries (The MPAA and RIAA to mention a few) want, a closed device to deliver content to the end user where they have complete control of what gets done with it. It is just one in a serious of steps, including the DMCA, which the media industries hope will eventually lead to this [gnu.org].

    Is it going to happen, NO. But are they going to try, most defiantly. There is a fundamental paradigm shift on our hand due to the Internet. The simple fact is that it is going to be imposable to control the flow of any sort of information. It has already happened with music and it is eventually going to happen with video and other forms of information. And there is nothing the media industries can due about it. Unfortunately the media industry doesn't really see this and those that due refuse to accept and will do everything in there power to make the Internet into what they want. And thus it is going to be hell. What we have seen already is just the begging of the storm. It is going to get a lot worse in the coming years as they media industry continue to try there tricks to control the free flow of information. If you do not see this conflict by now I fell very sorry for you as the signs are everywhere, the DMCA, the SSSCA, and Microsoft's .NET to mention a few.

    What can we do about it? Well that is a very good question. We can't avoid this conflict but we can prepare for it. Some of the things we can do are: 1) Support Open Source software (although I think that goes with out saying). 2) Write (snailmail, not email) your congressperson to repeal the DMCA. 3) Refuse to buy hardware you can't develop for. I for one have no interest in TiVO are it competitors for one simple reason, it is a black box that is not designed to be user programmable. And finally 4) spread the word.

    For more insight into this issue see the article The Coming Storm [harvard.edu] by Bruce Bell.

    Truthfully, one thing I personally would really like to do is to develop, but really don't have the resources to do so, is a truly open TiVO like device that is *designed* to be user programmable and will store everything completely unencrypted. This device will force the MPAA industry to accept the inevitable. It is completely legal but the MPAA will completely hate it and will do everything in there power to stop it. And with out a lot of will power and a major team of legal exports to back me up they probably will.

    • You Wrote: 2) Write (snailmail, not email) your congressperson to repeal the DMCA.

      That used to be the case, but with all of the Anthrax problems, Congress is having a hard time gettting their mail these days. I deal with a legislative assistant on the hill and the only way to get stuff to them is via e-mail. Mail is held, as is UPS, Fedex, Etc. As it stands at this particular moment if they don't know you they don't want it snail mail or courier.
  • ... is not Linux. While there is the PS2 Linux kit out there that lets you run Linux on your PS2, the operating system used by the games is a proprietary one, with no relation to Linux.

    The PS2 development kits are modded PCs that run Linux and emulate a PS2 environment.
  • Since Sony is involved, the only supported storage devices will probably be Memory Sticks and Minidiscs.

  • There will be no such thing! (Score:5, Informative)

    by MadMirko ( 231667 ) on Saturday January 05, 2002 @01:45PM (#2790884)
    Check Gamefront Magazine (German) [gf-data.de]. Sony denied the claims of that Japanese newspaper, calling them a misunderstanding. Sony, IBM and Toshiba are developing a shared broadband network, no OS.
  • IBM has a lot of OS hackers, and they have little left to do. AIX is kind of a dead end and IBM management is pushing Linux more and more. OS/2 is dead for practical purposes. They can't just all pack up and go into management. Many of these people think that Linux can't be any good because it is open source and wasn't written by people like them.

    So, what do they do? The desparately try to find a justification for their existence and they pitch various projects to their management. "Media OS", "low latency", "very high bandwidth", "digital rights management", and "working with Sony", is what stuck. Among the few choices that they had to justify working on a new proprietary OS, that's probably the best they could do.

    I doubt it will come to much. In the best case (for them), the PS/3 may run this thing, but PS/2 already runs a proprietary OS. But Linux will be able to handle all those problems as well or better by the time the system comes out, and you will see Linux in more and more media and consumer devices. That's not to say Linux is perfect, just that what these people seem to be proposing doesn't improve on Linux in the areas where it needs improving.

  • They may be running a version of this for the PC in 2005, but it won't have to be run on that. I bet when the next Playstation comes out, they'll be using this OS - they're not just trying to bring us a new operating system, they're probably trying to reinvent the personal computer. And Sony alone is large enough to take care of a relatively middling company like Microsoft.

    In 5 years, the PC as we know it will be on the way out. It's about time, too.

  • Isn't this... (Score:2, Insightful)

    by deadgoon42 ( 309575 )
    what BeOS was all about? Doh!!
  • It seems to me that the big names in consumer electronics are hedging their bets on broadband digital entertainment and integrated home entertainment systems as being the big sellers as the economy recovers. Problem is, it'll all be proprietary and have dozens of DRM layers throughout designed to allow content producers to suck every last cent out the consumer. Quite simply, open standards don't allow corporations to manipulate the market. Unless we want to lose all control of entertainment technology and popular media, we need to act now. There needs to be a fully open alternative to the digital media jaggernaut that hollywood and big manufacturers / software companies are preparing. And unfortunately, we are very far behind. We need a media infrastructure that is as good or better than what is currently being developed. And it must be freely available the world over. Unfortunately, there seems to be little interest in multimedia among the top Open Source developers. This needs to change. If MS and the like lose the war for web, they will move elsewhere in attempt to obsolete current Open Source solutions by redefining the market. Frankly, the average consumer hates current desktop computing and rightly so, as it does not truly meet their needs. We must be careful not to fall behind the trends as we polish our desktop solutions.

  • Flat (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Graymalkin ( 13732 ) on Saturday January 05, 2002 @04:33PM (#2791370)
    Did anybody count the number of call to arms posts on this thread? I nearly pissed myself laughing. Not only is the article not really up on details but Sony flat out denied they were working on an OS. Sounds like somebody was speaking engrish on one end of the line and got somebody else confused.
  • According to the sources, local area networks will be used to connect PCs installed with the operating system to TVs, air conditioners, refrigerators and other home appliances, giving great flexibility in controlling home appliances.

    Ahhh, the long awaited broadband connection to the fridge. A whole new world is upon us. Where the fridge is connected and we can ... we can ... Oh, never mind.

    Wait, I remembered,- it can report back to the manufacturer BEFORE the computer chip, used to connect the fridge to the net, is about to fail. So they can send out a service team to replace the chip BEFORE the internet connection even went out!

    You wonder how people have lived without it this long.
  • I can already control my appliances. I can already control my computer using a TV as a monitor. To watch a video/audio source on a computer screen, I can stick a realtime mpeg encoder at the source and easily stream it through a 10mbps network with no difficulty.

    Doesn't Tivo save TV programs already? If not, I'm always able to download them off usenet or other places due to the due diligence of a few dedicated individuals.

    What this looks like is that they're attempting to create an all-in-one solution and standardize it. Good/Bad who knows. The point here is.. We have 3 years to come up with an alternative solution and standardize the market on it before they have a chance to embrace/extend/exploit.

    -Restil
  • "The three companies predict the entire development cost will run to about 400 million dollars (52 billion yen). "
    Wow! I guess they could raise any interest if they were talking about $400K. It had to be a huge number. That makes sense coming from big corporates. If it is based on OSS and still cost that much, it would have to be marketing mostly.
    "According to the sources, local area networks will be used to connect PCs installed with the operating system to TVs, air conditioners, refrigerators and other home appliances, giving great flexibility in controlling home appliances."
    I am sure that everyone needs their AC plugged to the TV. Really useful stuff.
    "The larger bandwidth of a broadband connection will open the door to the downloading of movies, TV programs and video games via the Internet, the sources said. "
    OK, but does that matter really when more than half of the computer owners in the US are still on dial up connections? Being able to blast my movies all over my home is one thing, but VOD has got nothing to do with it. And I can't even move the content of my DVDs around thanks to the same companies listed here.
    "Users will be able to store television programs in their PCs and watch them at any time and any place."
    Like I just said, I could do that today by copying my DVDs to a hard-disk but they won't even let me do that legally. So, why should I believe some smoke and mirrors BS will make that happen in the future.
    "TVs with the OS installed will be much smaller as they will not need a tuner, the sources said. "
    Now we are talking! A tuner in the TV must take as much as the size of a cigarette lighter. Saving that space is really justifying investing in this new stuff. Really needed.
    "All controls will be accessible from the TV screen, making the system more user-friendly, the sources said, an important feature when considering the elderly and those unfamiliar with using PCs. "
    Which controls? Like PLAY STOP and PAUSE? Coz I got that already on my remote.
    "The OS will also enable tasks impossible for current technology, the sources said.
    OK, that is what I thought. They are still looking for the killer app for that gizmos. Seems like they got authorization by their finance to go and do something they are not really sure about. But it comes right after the M$ homestation read earlier. So that is probably the only valid reason to spend near half a billion dollars. Like I said, makes total sense. PPA, the girl next door.
  • Sony will use its experience developing the PS2 OS (hey, wasn't it Linux based?)

    No. There is however a version of Linux for the PS2. That hardly qualifies the PS2 as a Linux Based device. Almost no games (possibly none at all) have anything Linux in them.

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