Guildhall at SMU Q&A 82
An anonymous submitter wrote in about this interview with the director of the Guildhall game development program. Slashdot mentioned it earlier.
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Guildhall at SMU Q&A
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I have hardly ever known a mathematician who was capable of reasoning. -- Plato
Repeat (Score:1, Funny)
An anonymous submitter wrote in about this interview with the director of the Guildhall game development program. Slashdot mentioned it earlier.
...but we here at slashdot figured: why not post it again!
GMD
Re:Repeat (Score:1, Informative)
You always find out too late (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:You always find out too late (Score:3, Interesting)
I do have a job... a good one, in fact. It's just not as a game developer. (I mean, what could be more fun than working on a video game everyday, and being able to tell people, "look what I made".... try impressing non-cs people with my fast relational database lookups or something just doesn't work...)
Awesome already taken (Score:2)
Awesome was a great game for the Amiga released by Psygnosis sometime in the really early 90s. That game and Empire sure wasted a lot of high school time when I should have been studying...
might as well, same subject. (Score:4, Funny)
by Alien54 (180860) on Monday January 06, @04:16PM (#5028005)
(http://radiofreenation.net/)
Founde
Had me worried for a second. But a school in Texas would probably be an okay place to learn how to code first person shooters.
I had nightmares about what kind of video games a truly christian university would focus on.
--
Submit Your Political News to Radio Free Nation [radiofreenation.net]
A site using Slash Code
Re:might as well, same subject. (Score:1)
As an atheist, that's a game that I'd enjoy playing.
Re:might as well, same subject. (Score:1)
Text of article (Score:5, Informative)
The Dallas area is already a huge hotbed for game developers of all types and now Dallas-based Southern Methodist University is planning to make it a hotbed for learning about game development with The Guildhall, their upcoming curriculum program. HomeLAN got a chance to chat with David Najjab, the director of digital games at SMU, to find out more about their plans for The Guildhall.
HomeLAN - How did the idea for creating an actual game development curriculum at SMU start?
David Najjab - It's funny, because I was actually working on gaming development curriculum at another university, and it wasn't going very well. I would meet with gaming leaders in the industry, and they would come up with the coolest ideas on how to structure a program. However, when I would take their ideas to the university curriculum committee, they just wouldn't "get" how unique gaming is as a discipline. This university wanted to pull together a degree plan for gaming by using their existing curriculum - the biggest changes made would merely be the names of the classes! And this is happening all over the country! If a gaming degree comes out of a computer science program or an art school, pretty much only the names of the courses have been changed.
People in the gaming community wanted a radically different type of program that would really address the needs of the gaming industry. When I heard about people at the Hart eCenter thinking outside the box about bringing the real world of business and technology together with academia, I thought it seemed like a perfect fit for a program like this one. The phenomenal way things are coming together tells me I was right.
HomeLAN - With a number of game developers literally self-taught through the creation of their own games and mods, what will the Guildhall bring that will help future game designers?
David Najjab - One thing that we hear consistently and often from professional game developers is that while they get flooded with resumes, hardly any of the applicants could actually be useful and productive at a gaming studio - they just don't have the skills or the experience. It's true that most gaming professionals have been self taught but that's only because until now that was the only option they had. Remember, every discipline at some time was self taught. In fact, Levelord pointed out for me recently that many years ago people thought it was crazy when his father created a film school at UCLA. That just wasn't the way things had been done in the past, but why not? We are so glad the Guildhall is breaking new ground in the gaming industry, teaching aspiring, creative talent how to be the best at what they want to do.
HomeLAN - Will there be any sort of prerequisites for admission into the Guildhall?
David Najjab - There are general prerequisites for all applicants and specific ones created for each track of study, art, levels, and software development. You can find that information on our website at http://www.guildhall.smu.edu/Admissions/pre-requi
HomeLAN - Can you give us an idea about the course curriculum for the 18-month course?
David Najjab - Sure. First of all, at Tom Hall and John Romero's suggestion, we have a shorter, more intensive program than some might expect. That's because the game developers we are working with feel strongly that the program should reflect the true nature of the gaming industry, which is very intense to say the least. For that reason we have made sure the Guildhall at SMU will provide an intense experience - our students should definitely expect to work long hours!
Classes will be taught in a team teaching environment - full-time faculty will provide continuity while the adjunct faculty coming to us from top gaming studios in our area will provide special areas of focus to complement the regular coursework. Our six-term program will incorporate individual assignments and team projects, and game projects will progress from simple to more complex throughout the program. Some highlights of the subjects we'll cover in each track are posted online at http://www.guildhall.smu.edu/programs.htm.
HomeLAN - The Guildhall will have an all-star lineup of Dallas-based game developers as instructors. What will they bring to the table?
David Najjab - The same thing they brought to the entertainment world - their creative genius! That we have these people working with us is still something I can't believe! Just today we were going over the names of the gaming industry luminaries who are helping develop our curriculum, and it is incredible - it's already like a who's who of the game development world, and there are still more coming on board! I hate to try to list them all for fear of leaving someone out, but some of our "star" supporters include Levelord, John Romero, Tom Hall, Graeme Divine, Randy Pitchford of Gearbox, Jeff Wilkinson from Gametutorial.com, and more.
These industry experts supporting the Guildhall are what make our program so great! Just think about this - who better to design levels curriculum than Levelord himself? And students at other schools may read about video gaming history, but at the Guildhall our students will hear about how things happened from the people who actually made the history. What's more, our students will not simply talk about their favorite games with fellow students; as part of their coursework, they will actually discuss details of those games with the people who are making them - what a difference!
HomeLAN - Besides working in the classroom, what other things will the Guildhall do to instruct their students?
David Najjab - Aside from classroom assignments and projects, which will run throughout the entire program, our students will have weekly or biweekly LAN parties. Students will take big-name games, challenge each other, and then explore what made it work the way it did. Also, we hear a lot from the experts working with us that a truly professional game developer will never lose sight of the simple fact that games have to be fun to be successful, so of course our students will also spend time discussing what made the games FUN!
HomeLAN - Will there be any support from game publishers, software tools developers or perhaps hardware manufacturers for the curriculum?
David Najjab - We have already been working closely with Wordware Publishing on several projects, and Joe Kreiner at Logitech has also been very helpful as we've been putting pen to paper. Our goal is to pull in more of these types of industry supporters as we move forward.
HomeLAN - After students go through the Guildhall courses and get their certificate will there be any help from the school to get these students jobs in the game development industry?
David Najjab - This is one of the big advantages of having a program supported by such important people in the gaming industry. Our students will not only attend courses designed by these people and work with them in class, but they will also get the benefit of their connections after they leave the Guildhall. Of course we can't make any guarantees, but we will definitely work through our contacts in the industry to help our students get interviews at top gaming studios. And being in Dallas gives us a great playing field to start with - we've got Monkeystone Games, id Software, Gearbox, Terminal Reality, Ritual Entertainment, and more.
HomeLAN - What plans do have for expanding the game development curriculum in the future?
David Najjab - We have discussed many ideas about how the Guildhall might grow and expand over the years, even into undergraduate and graduate degree programs as well as research. However, right now we are really more focused on the near future and getting this first class of students off to a great start! We are currently undergoing the accreditation approval process and expect classes to begin in July of this year.
HomeLAN - Finally, is there anything else you wish to say about the Guildhall at SMU?
David Najjab - I think it's important for people to understand that a program like this just couldn't happen without a forward-thinking institution like SMU. The university created the Hart eCenter to be an innovator of special programs like the Guildhall that integrate many disciplines into effective ways to fill needs in our society. The Hart eCenter's director, Dr. Peter Raad, immediately saw a great opportunity to do this with our program. Through the Guildhall at SMU, we are pioneering a new, and clearly the most effective, way to teach digital games development. We are doing something radically different by tapping into the creativity and experience of gaming professionals. The result is that we're not only going to help meet the exacting needs of this industry but we're also going to help satisfy the high expectations of increasingly more sophisticated gamers.
Unemployment: Not just for Philosophy majors! (Score:4, Interesting)
These industry experts supporting the Guildhall are what make our program so great! Just think about this - who better to design levels curriculum than Levelord himself? And students at other schools may read about video gaming history, but at the Guildhall our students will hear about how things happened from the people who actually made the history. What's more, our students will not simply talk about their favorite games with fellow students; as part of their coursework, they will actually discuss details of those games with the people who are making them - what a difference!
Extra-curricular:
Aside from classroom assignments and projects, which will run throughout the entire program, our students will have weekly or biweekly LAN parties. Students will take big-name games, challenge each other, and then explore what made it work the way it did. Also, we hear a lot from the experts working with us that a truly professional game developer will never lose sight of the simple fact that games have to be fun to be successful, so of course our students will also spend time discussing what made the games FUN!
Sitting around talking about Pac-Man won't make you employable. Even if you're talking with "Levelord" or the two gay men from Penny-Arcade.
Trust me.
Re:Unemployment: Not just for Philosophy majors! (Score:1)
What a joke.
McDonalds Hamburger University and now this.
If this is where the 'higher' education is headed in america, no wonder the rest of the world is running circles around us.
Anything but work.
Re:Unemployment: Not just for Philosophy majors! (Score:1)
Damn! I am always the last to know.
Re:Unemployment: Not just for Philosophy majors! (Score:1)
Kids today have it so easy (Score:5, Funny)
But mom, I AM doing my homework!!!
Like my life! (Score:4, Funny)
This sounds like an average week for any students of computing/programming to me.
LAN party 101 (Score:5, Funny)
good programmers = gamers (Score:5, Insightful)
Granted, gaming as part of a curiculum isnt exactly par for the course. However, introducing analysis of production quality products into any curiculum where you're learning to build such products is a necessesity. Most "traditional" C.S. programs tend to focus more on theory than practicle application. This is great for academia, but leaves the graduate struggling to aquire production level skillz upon entering industry. With a good mathmatical background, programmers can pick things up easily and teach themselves any skills they need. The only problem is the learning curve of new technologies they were not taught puts them that far behind other programmers who went to tech school for 3 weeks to learn C# or something.
What I'm getting at is the Guildhall is a program designed by INDUSTRY not ACADEMIA, and therefore necessarily is supperior for both the industry-minded student and the industry.
Re:good programmers = gamers (Score:2, Insightful)
I myself am not interested in gaming but I happen to have a very good job at very well known software engineering shop. It has everything to do with your love and desire to work/program computers and nothing to do with your like/dislike of video games.
Re:good programmers = gamers (Score:2)
Re:good programmers = gamers (Score:2, Insightful)
IMO, the industry is just messed up in a different way than academia. The industry needs more people with discipline, the kind that gets you through a challenging college degree. Academia needs to teach more practical application development. If either academia or industry can get their act together, some cool things will happen.
Re:good programmers = gamers (Score:2)
Just a note for you, though it is now too late, and those like you seeking to simply get training to do computer programming. Don't go to a university, go to a tech school/trade school. A university, by its very name, is not a tech school/trade school. It exists to teach you more than just how to get a job in field X. It is there to broaden your mind (Gasp! Even BEYOND computers!), challenge your preconceptions, expose you to many different ideas and people. That is the heart of a university.
If you are simply interested in maintaining a narrow field of view, narrow interests, and avoid education, go to a tech or trade school and you will learn only programming or only business, etc, and not have to exercise your mind nor expand your horizons. You can learn to code to your hearts content and never ever have to have your politics, mores, etc, challenged by reality, culture, and/or variety.
Re:good programmers = gamers (Score:2)
Wow, someone seems a little bitter and narrowminded or something about anything but university education. Did they not teach openmindedness about others at your school? I don't go to a tech school, but for some people its what they (want|need|can afford) versus overpriced, overpoliticized universities full of professors who are more interested in their next book or research symposium than in educating young minds
"You can learn to code to your hearts content and never ever have to have your politics, mores, etc, challenged by reality, culture, and/or variety."
College did that for you? Challenged your mores, politics, and all? Wow. Usually its just recycled garbage from the 90% of the professors who dont care. *Especially* in computer science, where maybe 1 in 20 professors cares about your education rather than how you can advance their research. The 10% who do care are never in your major program as comsci people. So where did you go to get this amazing but embittering experience? I'm rather curious.
In the end though, I have to agree with your basic premise--university education is not the best for teaching to code. But then again neither is tech school. Self-education coupled with one or two code gurus as mentors is prolly the best, but only a few of us get that.
Re:good programmers = gamers (Score:5, Insightful)
Good programmers are good thinkers. They know how to solve problems and be creative. Whether or not you spend your free time playing Quake is totally meaningless. Your skill at conquering the world in Civ III is not going to teach you how to work with people. Having a high level character in UO does not give you insight into how a computer works on a very low level. Sims don't teach you about data structures and how to think in algorithms.
The INDUSTRY would be better served by people who are good critical thinkers, and that's what learning theory teaches you how to do. Learning physics and writing thoughtful essays about political science teach you how too. It's disturbing that people can go through 16 years of education and never figure out that's what it's all about.
Re:good programmers = gamers (Score:1)
While a game (nethack) is only the basis for the project, games do lend themselves to fun algorithm problems. In general being a computer gamer doesn't help being a programmer all that much, but those people tend to be more modivated and excited about programming.
Re:good programmers = gamers (Score:1)
"To insinuate that you have to play games to be a good programmer is
My insunuation was acutally that an interest in your chosen proffession beyond the strict bounds of a classroom serve to make you better at your chosen proffession.
Whether its gaming or designing web pages or building little gadgets form parts you buy at radio shack; Having hobbies related to you proffesion serves to strenghten both your interest and IMHO your abilities(note I said IMHO, not this is absolutely how it is).
Re:good programmers = gamers (Score:2)
Re:good programmers = gamers (Score:2)
Software, as with all other engineering and science disciplines, is a fundamentally practical subject. You can parrot-learn all the theory in the world, but it won't teach you a damn thing if you can't apply it. I know of one person on my course (electronic engineering) who by the fourth year still couldn't design a simple circuit using the stuff taught on the course, but she graduated with a 2:1 all the same (that's an English grade: English degrees graduate with "First", "Upper Second" (2:1), "Lower Second" (2:2), "Third", bare "Pass" and "Fail). She was a great parrot-learner, but I would no way want to be working with her after uni!
That's the reason all sci and eng courses have projects. They're to get you to internalise what you've learnt, in the context of your chosen career progression. Projects *are* to teach you about what you'll need after uni, bcos they're the last chance you'll get to make big mistakes without any major impact. Sure, playing the games won't teach you about the programming, but it'll give you the context in which you use your knowledge. Just using a PC won't teach you how to code a user interface, but it'll give you a damn good idea of what works and what doesn't.
Personally, I'm disturbed by the currently-fashionable view that university is not to actually teach you anything. If you're not supposed to go to uni to learn stuff, what the hell use is it?! I don't buy the whole "you go to uni to learn how to learn" thing - you go to uni to learn the basics of a subject. You won't learn everything there, but you'll learn enough that you can build on that foundation.
Grab.
Re:good programmers = gamers (Score:2, Funny)
Um..... yes, about 3 weeks behind them.
Re:good programmers = gamers (Score:2)
But what it worked out to was that our actual education suffered: You'll come to realise that theory is essential if you want to do groundbreaking work. And that is exactly what the industry cut out of the curriculum, as it wasn't 'productive' enough. True, what we learned was important, and good to know, but we most definitely missing something. And that is becuase curriculum had been dictated by money instead of education.
Your last statement is like any fundamentalist statement: fundamentaly wrong. A propper course of action is ALWAYS a mixture of theory and practise.
PC Included (Score:3, Informative)
Why not just post minimum specs each term? If a student can come up with tuition for this program, they can afford a few hundred each term to upgrade their PC if required.
Re:PC Included (Score:1, Troll)
I mean, there's no academic work, no learning at all. Just sitting around talking about games. No-duh conversations like "This game is fun because it's not too hard and not too easy".
I mean, you'd think they'd just offer it as a completely extra-curricular 'club', so any students interested could join and hang out and get guest speakers and all that. A sensible school would do just that, but these guys want more tuition money.
Oh well, I pity the future Guildhall Alumni who wonder why an A+ in 'Dig-Dug' doesn't impress employers on their resume.
Re:PC Included (Score:1)
You spend 30,000 to sit and listen to 'Industry guys' talk about what makes a game fun. And you get a little certificate.
I know what goes into game design and development, and that's not what this will give you.
You're much better off with a Comp. Sci degree and some graphic arts courses to back it up.
This has been crafted to elicit high tuitions, not to create the future of the gaming industry.
Re:PC Included (Score:2)
Resolving *why* something is fun is a *huge* bastard topic, and it's one that most games companies aren't currently concerned with bcos they're too busy copying each other or remaking the standards - more FPS, more platform games (in 3-D now instead of the old sideways scrollers), more sports sims, etc. Please remember that The Sims was written off bcos no-one in management thought it would be "fun". There still isn't a definitive answer on what makes something "fun".
The analogy to film is pretty accurate. 80-some years back, film had been going for roughly 20 years, and there still wasn't any studied answer on what made a "good" film. Now computer games have been going for roughly 20 years (disregarding "Colossal Caves" and similar, which never reached a mass audience), so these guys will very much be pioneering their field in the same way film students were, way back when film studies first started.
Grab.
Re:PC Included (Score:2)
Couple this with the fact that cutting edge games require top of the line components...the school probably gets a great deal on large quantities of components (not to mention companies want people developing games for their hardware) and a trade in program would work better (at all, in fact) if everyone has the same hardware to swap in each year/2 years.
--trb
Re:PC Included (Score:2, Informative)
Re:PC Included (Score:1)
Seems par for the course... (Score:2)
Financial aid available? (Score:2)
Re:Financial aid available? (Score:1)
Game Industry *focus*, not *program* (Score:5, Interesting)
I can't understand for the life of me the headlong rush that a lot of universities are making to become industry training programs or "technical programs" like ITT, DeVry, etc.
The point of going to a university is not to learn a trade, but to get a well rounded higher education, be exposed to a lot of wacky and intelligent people (who you will use as contacts later, and who you'll undoubtedly have lots of interesting conversations with), be away from home, and become yourself. You don't go to a university to become more qualified to get a job.
I fought with this for a long time. I'm one of those self-taught people who started when I was about 6 years old on my TI-99/4A, moved on to PCs, did demos, wrote little games, and so on. When I got to college initially I was very bored because it seemed like I was just doing a bunch of busy work to fulfill requirements for some paper I needed to get a job. However, I started discovering that the school is just a convenient social setting (as mentioned above). Later on towards the end of getting my degree, I discovered that all the focus on those "useless" subjects like the liberal arts classes were some of the things I cherished most from my time there. Reason? I learned a decent amount from taking CS classes, but it wasn't stuff I couldn't have figured out on my own. The liberal arts stuff got me interested in subjects outside my main focus, and got me doing more reading, relating things inside and outside my focus. I can go to a party today and *gasp* talk about things besides computers, intelligently, and have fun with it.
I don't know if that made any sense, so my apologies ahead of time. People who have gone to a general, well rounded university will understand exactly what I'm talking about, and those who refuse to go because it's "a waste of my time" will probably never understand. But I feel sorry for these guys who are going through these intensive industry-based programs. They are really, really missing out. They could have gotten the same basic skills by having a couple extra classes for game design and such (perhaps adding more art/lit classes to their CS, or vice versa), and with a bit of personal determination to study it on their own.
Re:Game Industry *focus*, not *program* (Score:2)
Your mom paid for collage, didnt she? Must be nice...
I knew I'd get one of these.
NO, as a matter of fact, my mommy didn't pay for my college -- I stopped receiving funding or support of any kind from my parents pretty much from the moment I entered college. You'd like to think that's a good excuse for what I said, but that's not the reason. I used my own money, financial aid, and credit cards to pay for that schooling, and I was also working a job while doing it to pay for the rest (not to mention food, car bills, etc).
In fact, I think if my parents had paid for my college I probably wouldn't appreciate it nearly as much as I do.
Try again, buddy...
Re:Game Industry *focus*, not *program* (Score:1)
Re:Game Industry *focus*, not *program* (Score:1)
I started coding at age 6 on the TI-99/4A too.
No, nothing else all that interesting to say except "me too".
Looked at the web site (Score:5, Interesting)
The courses end with you building a FPS game. Where are the classes on designing puzzles, creative writing, composing music, and everything else that goes into being a game designer and developer? Not downplaying what is offered, but there is more to a game play than real time lighting effects and game physics.
Sega's web site once had a great set of articals title "So you want to be a game designer?", and one of the first things they said was to take a shape (like the DC swirl) and describe it, it's function and purpose. That type of streching the mind brough forth games like Ecco and Jet Grind Radio (not to mention Crazy Taxi, Chu Chu Rocket and so on).
If you're going to be there for 3 years, I'd hope more is taught about being a developer and designer of games than level design, art design and FPS design.
RTFA (Score:3, Insightful)
The school runs for 18 months [smu.edu]. Years have been 12 months long for quite some time.
I'd hope more is taught about being a developer and designer of games than level design, art design and FPS design.
Me too, if it were running three years. But it's not. Personally, I think 18 months of play-school game-hacking crunch time, combined with some expert tutelage, would be all that was needed to turn sharp CS skills into sharp CG developing skills.
Do it like this:
Think about what you could do if you didn't have to work for 18 months and spent that time pursuing your interests. Now think about what you could do with the same time, surrounded by people of like-mind and sharp skills. Now think about what you could do with that time if you also had expert guides. If your estimate hasn't reached "take over the world", then you're not as creative as you think you are.
Where are the classes on designing puzzles, creative writing, composing music, and everything else that goes into being a game designer and developer?
You don't teach creativity, you nurture it. You provide an environment that is conducive to its growth, like being surrounded by creative, talented peers with nothing to do but code and play video games. Computers get programmed - not people. People program themselves.
That's the two cents of someone who went through college "all wrong" and has a helluva lot to show for it.
Re:RTFA (Score:1)
Oh, and by "helluva lot", I mean, "a job." =p
Re:RTFA (Score:2)
BUT: You missed my point.
The school is about game design, which does take creativity to begin with (I'd hope...), so classes about designing puzzles, writing, composing music, etc, should be included. Being there with other students in a like minded manner should begin out the best in each of them, but I'm afriad that with the focus being on a FPS, you will end up with 'group think', and no orginality.
Things that I think would make the school better would be classes on Game Theory, Arts and Culture, Music, along with a health dose of what they already are offering. Open up the student's mind to various things and see where a random connection takes a student. They might come up with the next Tetris game (a game that is simple to learn, hard to master, and quite fun to play hours on end).
Will Guildhall address cross-platform issues? (Score:4, Interesting)
One question I have is whether, or in what manner, the issues of cross-platform game development and portability will be taught. I know there are a lot more materials out there on learning DirectX as opposed to SDL, so will the Guildhall teach straight Windows game programming, or will students be encouraged to target multiple platforms? Also, how do you see Linux fit into the game industry as a whole, specifically for new programmers?
Telling Quote (Score:3, Insightful)
The major project in the last two terms will be treated like an industry development project with schedules, crunch time, and outside evaluations.
So, instead of teaching good software engineering principles that lead to 40 hour work weeks and predictable progress, they endorse burnout. Real smart program.
Weslyan University (Score:1, Troll)
If they offered that program at Weslyan University, I could double major in porn [wesleyan.edu] and game development. cool!
Oh dear (Score:3, Funny)
The Guildhall (Score:3, Informative)
FWIW, there used to be a Guildhall University [lgu.ac.uk] too, but it just merged and changed its name.