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Handhelds Programming Hardware IT Technology

Handheld Programming? 66

Posted by Cliff from the taking-your-IDE-with-you dept.
dutky asks: "What devices does Slashdot recommend for the programmer on the go? Recently I went on vacation to Vietnam. Before we left my wife asked what I would do if I couldn't program for a month. I tried to assemble an inexpensive and portable programming environment using a Palm 130, but it was less than satisfactory. With the recent article on the Zarus PDA I have gotten to thinking about the problem again. Notably, I -don't- need a whopping amount of RAM, disk space, or processor speed, and I can live with fairly modest screen sizes. I was unable to find anything that matched all these criteria in about two weeks of occasional (and hurried) research. Do any such beasts exist?"

"My requirements are pretty simple:

  • Small and durable (I was packing three and a half weeks of clothes and stuff in a moderately large backpack)
  • Long battery life (able to get in a good 8-hour programming session without interruption)
  • Able to use a keyboard (I can't write C code from Grafitti)
  • Reasonable screen resolution (I need to be able to see at least 80 columns by 40 lines)
  • Ability to run a wide variety of programming tools (at least a good editor, C compiler, and probably several common scripting languages as well)
  • External mass storage of some kind (I'd settle for SD or CF cards)
  • Relatively inexpensive: $200-$400 is a good range (I don't want to be too upset if it gets lost, stolen or dropped off of a cliff)"
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Handheld Programming? More

Handheld Programming?

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  • Your wife... (Score:4, Insightful)

    by stefanlasiewski ( 63134 ) <slashdot@stefa n c o .com> on Wednesday March 19, 2003 @06:25PM (#5547696) Homepage Journal
    Before we left my wife asked what I would do if I couldn't program for a month

    Err, I think that was your wife's way of asking you nto not program for a month. After all, you were on vacation in Vietnam, and it's a good time to relax.

    I went to Europe for 3 weeks last summer. In 3 weeks, I spent 5 minutes on the computer booking a train reservation. 3 weeks. No computer. Beautiful.

    • Re:Your wife... (Score:3, Insightful)

      by lowtekneq ( 469145 )
      No computer. Beautiful.
      This is Slashdot, most of us don't feel well without our computers. When I'm on vacation I don't do any major programming projects, but I like to get on the net every once in a while to get on aim, or check mail etc. I enjoy technology, and I don't understand how someone else who does (im guessing this dude does) would find this beautiful or relaxing

      • > I enjoy technology, and I don't understand how someone else who does (im guessing this dude does) would find this beautiful or relaxing

        See things from the other side of the coin, walk a mile in somebody else's shoes, enjoy a thunderstorm after weeks of sun, Declare a no-cell-phone day. No yin without yang. Clichés ad infinitum.

        Ignore at your peril.
      • I enjoy technology also, but it's not the be-all/end-all of life. There are other things in the world. Beautiful wonderful things.

        Heck, there are even different beautiful, wonderful technological things in the world. Portions of Vietnam have these facinating water-distribution systems, dating back hundreds of years, where a set of "water men" (which are sometimes considered holy) distribute water to the various rice patties and agricultural fields using small conduits, canals, dams, etc. Recently, people h
        • ... why is this an either-or proposition?

          What about the 5-MP digital camera I use to take snapshots of the Swiss Alps?

          The Sony Picturebook that I download and store the pictures with? And use to write about the experience while I'm there?

          The Zaurus I play NetHack with on the plane?

          The point is that for many Slashdot readers, "using technology" != "working". Sure, you're not supposed to be *working* on a vacation, but you sure are supposed to be enjoying yourself, and if bringing your gadgets along ass
  • It may not fit your requirements to the letter, but I find that Palm's Tungsten T [palm.com] runs like a dream. Mmmm...color.

    It's got a fast processor, a "universal" keyboard port, SD card slot, and (yummy) bluetooth. I love my tungsten.

    • Re:Well... (Score:1)

      by PD ( 9577 )
      Does it have a free C++ compiler? How about one that costs money?

      • Re:Well... (Score:3, Informative)

        by RevAaron ( 125240 )
        Nope. Not that runs on the PalmOS itself. Due to limitations of the PalmOS, there aren't too many "full-blown" programming environments available for it. Therei s LispMe and Quartus forth which are cool, and you can get a very stripped down Python. But nothing like what you can get for a WinCE or Linux PDA.

        • Re:Well... (Score:1)

          by PD ( 9577 )
          I don't want what I could get for WinCE or Linux PDA.

          I want vi and something I invoke like this: cc foo.c, giving me a program.

          This should be possible in a small amount of memory. Certainly less than 4 megs.
          • Then get a DOS PDA and run an older DOS C compiler. GCC certainly doesn't run in 4 MB of RAM, not without using an enormous amount of swap. Yes, you *should* be able to do it, but with modern compilers, you can't. I used to run Turbo C on an XT with 640K of RAM- you can get these HP OmniGo PDAs with 1-2 MB on an XT (or 286, can't remember) procesor.
  • you can't go a few weeks without programming? and you went to vietnam. and you wanted to program.

    for gods sake you need some help. where i come from we call that an addiction.

  • Check out the NEC Mobile Pro (Score:5, Informative)

    by n1ywb ( 555767 ) on Wednesday March 19, 2003 @06:32PM (#5547765) Homepage Journal
    The NEC MobilePro is probably the most elite handheld PC I've seen. I don't understand why they aren't more popular. There are lots of them on ebay [ebay.com], and on the newer ones you can run NetBSD [netbsd.org] with X even (have a big CF card obviously.) The 770, 780, and 790 are the ones to look for. The 800 also runs NetBSD with X, but it's a larger laptopish form factor.

    • Re:Check out the NEC Mobile Pro (Score:5, Informative)

      by RevAaron ( 125240 ) <`moc.liamtoh' `ta' `noraaver'> on Wednesday March 19, 2003 @07:29PM (#5548288) Homepage
      I think there are a few reaons the MobilePro models aren't more popular.

      1. They run WinCE. Automaticly hated by people around these parts. (excluding me) Yes, Slashdot isn't the rest of the world, but...
      2. They are large. Yes, they have a large, nice kb as a cause/result. But they're almost as big as a regular laptop- I think most people figure that if they're going to have something as big as a MP, they're just going to have a laptop.
      3. They don't have a 206 MHz StrongARM. More importantly a SA in general. Most software for WinCE these days is for StrongARM, not MIPS. It's hard finding up to date sofware for the MIPS+HPC 2000. It's a lot easier to find stuff for the Jornada 720, 728, or 820 (bigger laptop formfactor of the Jornada 72x)- people are still maintaining H/PC 2000 packages for StrongARM. Also, with a couple DLLs, you can run packages meant for StrongARM PocketPCs, widely expanding the mass of available software. Can't do that on the MobilePros.

      Last summer, I was looking for a WinCE device with a built in, touch-typeable keyboard. I was mostly looking at either the MobilePro 790 or the Jornada 720, and after a lot of reading, decided on the J720, for the above reasons and some others. I was a bit afraid the keyboard would be too small on the J720, but it's just big enough that I can touch-type on it, but just small enough that it fits in my pocket. Definately couldn't stash a MP790 in my pocket, that's for darn sure. :)

      (you can run Linux on the J72x)
      • 1. They run WinCE. Automaticly hated by people around these parts. (excluding me)
        My only major problem with Windows CE is that it's an MS product. It's actually quite a capable and compact embedded OS. They'll probably screw it all up with CE .NET though.

  • Forth? (Score:2, Informative)

    by caliban ( 15401 )


    For something a bit different different you could try Forth, which excels in small footprint devices.
    I've seen a full IDE in 16k (k as in kilo) bytes

    For palm, there's Quartus Forth [quartus.net]

    • Forth kicks ass! I learned Forth just so I could hack my Mac's Open Firmware. Everybody should learn Forth. There is also GNU Forth available on gnu's site.
    • Forth is a pretty sweet little language. Most modern PDAs can definately handle language much more... bloated than it, although there are good implementations on all the PDA platforms. There is the Palm OS one as you mentioned, as well as a number of OSS/FS implementations for Linux PDAs. WinCE has a couple, the best probably being DSForth, which even compiles to machine code, all on the device. Quite slick.

  • Programming on vacation would be great.. (Score:4, Funny)

    by ewhenn ( 647989 ) on Wednesday March 19, 2003 @06:48PM (#5547865)
    Very Few Lines of Code.

    While (onVacation)
    {
    leaveComputerAlone;
    }

  • IBM Workpad (Score:5, Funny)

    by glenstar ( 569572 ) on Wednesday March 19, 2003 @06:49PM (#5547868)
    Before we left my wife asked what I would do if I couldn't program for a month.

    Translation: "If you bring a computer, you are guaranteed to not see the inside of my panties for a month".

    Find an old IBM Workpad. Not the handheld one, but the one that looks like a tiny Thinkpad. They rock. Unfortunately, the have been discontinued, but I am sure you can find one.

    Seriously, though... check out sex. It's much more fun to boink your wife in some new and exotic place than it is to debug C code... really.

    • Nah, you are wrong, he is right. I have tried bonking his wife, it wasn't that good. By the way, whats with her celery fascination?
  • I've never been a gadget freak. I don't spend much on my computer, and I don't have any gizmos like a laptop, PDA, cell phone, etc. However, I would *love* to have something like this. I started thinking that it might have to be a thin client, to reduce costs and increase life -- but that doesn't do you any good, since Vietnam isn't covered by 802.11b.

    I'd be happy with a lesser device:

    Small and durable (I was packing three and a half weeks of clothes and stuff in a moderately large backpack)

    Small is
  • Yo-

    One of the things I use a PDA for is just this. Believe it or not, it is one of the bigger reasons I got a PDA, and at the time, the Newton 2100, which could be programmed in its native language NewtonScript on the device itself. You can produce the same full applications as you could using the desktop NewtonScript tools.

    I maintain a page about PDA-hosted development envrionments here. [swiki.net] It is mostly concerned with WinCE and the Newton OS, but there is a link to a similar page for Palm OS info.

    If you want to do C development, on the road, there really aren't many options. To my knowledge, there is no WinCE port of gcc. There are many programming systems available for WinCE and PocketPC machines, some compiled to machine code, some compiled to bytecode, and some interpreted.

    To my knowledge, other than getting something like a Toshiba Liberetto (a 'real' PC, more than $400, and with > 2 hr battery life), the only option for doing C development on a small, PDA-class device is on the various Zaurus PDAs. You can install GCC, etc, on the Zaurus. Modern C development takes, relatively, a lot of storage space, compared to other options. You should be able to get external keyboards for the Zaurus SL-5x00 models. I doubt the wee thumbboard would be much more efficient than just using a decent character recognizer. Battery life may not be quite 8-hours, but that's what you get, I guess.

    The newer JP only Zaurus has a built in keyboard, but it is quite small- a lot smaller than you'd find on the Jornada 720. Nothing touch typeable. But perhaps it is all you need?

    If you were willing to go low-tek, you could get an older, DOS-based handheld PC like the HP OmniGo. You could probably run Turbo C on them. Or Watcom, etc. Those can he had pretty cheaply, and I believe get good battery life. Probably approaching 8 hours. They may use a non-rechargable battery (AAs or something), which could be good if youl'll be in the middle of nowhere for long stints. You could still use rechargable NiMH AAs even, just carry a bagfull of them. :P

    Yet another option would be to install Linux on a Jornada 720. It would be able to run run GCC like the Zaurus, and have the added benefit of having a keyboard, 75% of fullsize. After a few days, I got quite used to it, and can type almost as fast as I can on a fullsize keyboard- and I have some pretty big and stubby fingers. I am using one right now for typing up this post, although under WinCE. (I use it for programming in Squeak Smalltalk. [squeak.org] With the Jornada, you could get the optional 24-hour battery if long life is what you need. Under Linux, that battery could probably get you at least 8 hours, but a lot less than 24 hours. (poor or non-existant power management in Linux for the J720) I'm not sure about your environmental conditions, but the J720's screen isn't very readable in sunlight- TFT screen isn't reflective. Unreadable in direct and full summer or spring sunlight. Aside from that, it's a great device, and almost has replaced my poor iBook. ;P I have a 2 GB PCMCIA drive for it.

    I use it for development (in Squeak and Dialect [a Python-like RAD language]), write papers in TeX (and render and read them), record data in Excel, browse the web in IE (much more full featured than the IE in PocketPC), listening to MP3s, SSH for email and sysadminage, read eBooks in uBook and Acrobat... Like I said, it is like a full computer. :)

    Under CE, the Jornada 720 gets 6-8 hours of battery life.
    • Some other notes:

      The Jornada 720 gets 6-8 hours of battery life on the regular battery. The expanded battery is rated at 24 hours of use, under CE. I imagine that Linux gets 2-4 hours on the standard J720 battery. Also, the J720 can be had for around $300 on eBay. New, for some reason, HP still ells them for $1000. Insane.

      A good editor? You can run Emacs and Vi under both WinCE and Linux.
    • It's a tiny 486sx 25 (no fpu,) and it runs on a camcorder battery.

      http://pc110.ro.nu/

      One person used to write about doing development on it, (including compiling in his pocket, while on walks) and maintained a Linux page for it. That's all gone now. I guess the machine's too slow to be very interesting anymore.

      I bought one as a portable Linux system from one of the local import/discount houses after it was discontinued. I'm afraid I never did anything interesting with it. It's about the only full PC wit
      • A shame you never put it to good use- while slower, it sounds like it could really be a useful little machine. May be the best thing for our poster, running DOS or Linux.

  • Programming != computer (Score:5, Insightful)

    by heikkile ( 111814 ) on Wednesday March 19, 2003 @07:21PM (#5548211)
    A simple solution: Pen and paper. For a few $ you can get enough paper to write a large system on. No worries about battery time, display resolution, or keyboard. Survives the worst conditions.

    For a long time all programming was done this way, first on scratch paper, then on "fine" paper, then punched on cards or tape, and finally fed to a Computer, which took several hours to produce a pile of listing with one important syntax error in it...

    Seriously, most projects can use a few weeks of high-level thinking, without writing many lines of code. Even if you loose the papers, the thinking will have been good for your project.

    • A very very good point. Way too much code is written with little or no forethought and programmers would really benefit from learning to do stuff the "old-fashioned way."
    • Yes, and that was my original reply to my wife, "I'll just use pencil and paper," and that was, essentially, what I was forced to do anyway. However, I wasn't trying to do any large-scale design work, I just needed to try out a few, small-scale, algorithms that popped into my head. Pencil and paper won't compile or run my code, and I can't run anything of significant size or complexity by hand (a single run of a good test harness can easily exceed anything anyone could do by hand).

  • Comment removed (Score:5, Funny)

    by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Wednesday March 19, 2003 @07:25PM (#5548242)
    Comment removed based on user account deletion
    • If you think coding to a coder is like fixing cars to an auto mechanic, you're missing the point.

    • Re:OMG! (Score:3, Insightful)

      by Atzanteol ( 99067 )
      There are two types of people in this world (okay, probably more but)... Those with 'drive', and those without.

      I'm a programmer, and I also happen to do that for a living. If I weren't hired as a programmer, I would still code. I like vacations away from programming sometimes, but often I wouldn't mind to do some tinkering late at night (yes, even while on vacation).

      There are people like this in many professions (math, arts, etc.). Some people just gotta create!
      • I get bored out of my mind if I'm not programming. If I go somewhere to "do stuff" I'm going to be thinking of programming.
        It is just sort of how my brain works.
        I've frequently thought about getting a small handheld exactly like what this guy wants (although I'd likely work in Forth since it is so small and readily available for the handhelds).
        The only time I couldn't justify getting a laptop instead was maybe brining one to a horsetrack for betting (not sure if they are as uptight about computers there as
    • Yes, I was on vacation (in an exotic and beautiful locale) for a month and I wanted to be able to code from time to time. That may sound absolutely nuts but there is one thing most folks here probably don't understand: There was a considerable amount of 'down time' on the vacation, most of it during travel.

      First (and last) there is the 18 hour flight over the Pacific ocean. I managed to watch all the in-flight movies about half-way through (including the Hindi ones) and was almost tempted to listen to the r

  • It runs Symbian OS, it's got a full (though small) keyboard, a 4096 colour screen, MMC card support, and a total 40MB of RAM as standard (8MB for app execution). What more do you want? You can even use it to make phone calls!

  • Make the most of the break (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Lally Singh ( 3427 ) on Wednesday March 19, 2003 @08:23PM (#5548800) Journal
    Read. Some good books on programming will treat you much better AND make it feel like a vacation. That, and you will fit in better with your SO. For example, here are a few for C++:
    • Effective C++
    • More Effective C++
    • Modern C++ Design
    • Exceptional C++
    • More Exceptional C++
    • Effective STL
    Yeah, the names are redundant, but they're all very good texts.

  • I am -ashamed-. (Score:2, Insightful)

    by wackybrit ( 321117 )
    I am so ashamed at many of the posters above for their "it's a vacation, don't program!" attitudes. WTF? This isn't Kuro5hin! This is Slashdot!

    Clearly we're seeing the true geeks wandering from the flock and getting married and laid. Let's hope we get some new replacements soon.

    Some of us enjoy programming as a hobby y'know.
  • If you were a real geek you'd find Turing complete systems wherever you look. For example there's my old friend who showed that train sets were universal (Mathematical Recreations, in Scientific American (September, 1994)). You don't even need completeness. If you're smart you'll be able to build a tic-tac-toe machine out of matchboxes and marbles as described in one of Martin Gardner's books.

    Get out, drink lots of beer, and build an AI out of the cans to prove Searle [cwis.kub.nl] wrong.

  • This is exactly what I need, no more scratching *brilliant* algorithims on the back of my geometry homework during a boring class. Now I can whip out my handy PDA just in time to write some nice code... then get punched in the glasses, thrown in a locker and have it stolen, excuse me... I have to... nevermind...
  • Comment removed based on user account deletion

  • Palm OS Development (Score:2, Informative)

    by arberya ( 176464 )
    For Java: Superwaba [superwaba.com.br]
    For C: OnBoardC [sourceforge.net]
    For Lua: Lua [em.com.br]
    These are the environments I use and have lots of success with. There is also Pocket C [orbworks.com], but I prefer ONBoardC as it is is free and generally works better.
  • I have one of these: Fujitsu P1120 [fujitsupc.com]

    It's really small, runs Linux with the has a 1024x600 screen and I get 5+ hours on the extended battery.

    Other pluses is that you can watch movies, listen to music and other stuff (it has a 30G disk). It uses a Crusoe processor so you're helping pay Linus's paycheck (if he's still working there, I haven't really cared much).

    It's bigger than my Zaurus but smaller than just about anything else on the market. It's really a sleeper of a product.

    • that is what I paid for my laptop though.

      that p1120 looks excellent, but I just can't justify paying that much for something when I will only use it during the times when I can't use my laptop or desktop (which is fairly rare for me).

      I'm curious as to how easy/fast it is to code on them. I type fast on a full sized keyboard (albeit frequently poorly) and it seems I'd go nuts going down to that size - otherwise the Zaurus is really sounding enticing.
    • Unfortunately, the Fujitsu fails at least two of my requirements: very long battery life (>6 hours) and low cost (I just wouldn't be comfortable dropping a $1200 investment off a cliff. If I could be Ok with that, I'd just get an iBook and a couple of extra batteries). I'm also not too certain how durable the Fujitsu is: It looks a bit flimsy to be dragged around in a backpack for a month or so.
  • I am ashamed for selling my HP100LX, but at the time I needed the money.. anyhow, look up one of these devices and get yourself an old DOS copy of Borland Turbo C++ and put it on a PCMCIA drive. I did this for a number of years in high school and the early part of my university days.. I literally used that machine until it's beautiful keyboard started to get sticky. You can actually manage a decent speed with it. Perhaps you can find one on Ebay? Cheap?

    There was no backlight, but the screen was very, very
  • Lasts forever on a set of batteries, has
    either Reverse-Polish-Lisp or a new Basic-style
    lisp plus machine language. A meg of RAM, good
    display. You can also program it in C with the
    Saturn GCC port, but that's a cross-compiler,
    you need another computer to run it. Most PDA's
    aren't good at self-hosted program development,
    the 49 is great at it.

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