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Java Programming Privacy

Belgium Rolls Out Java ID Cards 299

Posted by michael from the no-one-would-dare-hack-them-i'm-sure dept.
An anonymous submitter points us to this page describing Belgium's rollout of Java-based smart cards as a national ID card.
This discussion has been archived. No new comments can be posted.

Belgium Rolls Out Java ID Cards More

Belgium Rolls Out Java ID Cards

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  • I'm in conflict... (Score:3, Funny)

    by chrisseaton ( 573490 ) on Saturday April 19, 2003 @03:20PM (#5765452) Homepage
    "national ID card" : bad
    Java : good

    • Re:I'm in conflict... (Score:2, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward
      "national ID card" : bad
      Why is that bad? How is it any different from a damn driver's license in the states? It's not. You think a cop in one state can't get your info just as fast as one in another? And do you realize how much easier it would be to write software if the whole country used the same damn format? And how much easier it would be for you to have one number to remember?
      Java : good Java sucks. Slow junk. Ugly. You can always tell a Java app from another. Pathetic.
      • "national ID card" : bad
        Why is that bad?

        dude. you're posting as an ac and you're asking why mandatory id is bad?

        How is it any different from a damn driver's license in the states?

        becasue a driver's license is for driving which is entirely optional. an id card is just for every day existing which is not. i don't know about in the us (you guys have gone a little "security" crazy recently) but in canada, if you're not driving you are not required to carry a driver's licence.

        And how much easier it wo

    • What does java actuall add to an id card? (Score:5, Insightful)

      by yintercept ( 517362 ) on Saturday April 19, 2003 @03:54PM (#5765613) Homepage Journal
      I am actually confused by the article. An "ID card" pretty much just carries data...not a full programming environment. Sounds more like business name branding.

      The important part of an id card is the interface and how you access and change the information. Such an interface is first and foremost a hardware interface. Trying to say that the card belongs to computer language x doesn't make any sense.

      As for functionality, would you as a business really want to record important information on a card that is easily lost, physically compromisable, and carried by a person? What businesses want is simply a verifiable id for customers. The simpler the id the better.

      What's all this noise about antiquities? Try pumping an antiquity in your Surburban and see where it gets you.

      • Re:What does java actuall add to an id card? (Score:5, Informative)

        by philfr ( 89798 ) on Saturday April 19, 2003 @04:08PM (#5765674)
        The ID cards are able to prove your identity. For this, they embed a private key, and calculate a signature themselves on data that is sent to them.

        If they only gave this private key to the device that asked for it, they would be easy to duplicate.

        Of course, you don't need Java for this, but you need a smart card with a CPU inside, and you need to develop the application that runs on that CPU.

        The choice of a chipcard determines the SDK to be used for it. One of them is JavaCard...
        • Of course, you don't need Java for this, but you need a smart card with a CPU inside

          The functionality is still more important that the language. You pass a bunch of blips into the card and get a bunch of blips out.

          Sounds like the big advantage of the technology is that the id the store gets isn't your actual private key...but a derivative produced from the key.

          The cards can't actually prove identity of course. But it sounds like it would be a little bit more difficult to steal someone else's identit

    • Re:I'm in conflict... (Score:4, Interesting)

      by stuffman64 ( 208233 ) <stuffmanNO@SPAMgmail.com> on Saturday April 19, 2003 @03:58PM (#5765632)
      "national ID card" : bad
      I agree that a national ID card is bad; we've been over it many times before. However, I am all for a national standard for driver's licences. I work at a fairly busy convience store at Penn State University, and oftentimes I have the privledge (if you can call it that) of selling cigarettes to help college students kill themselves faster. Since the town also has quite a large secondary school system, it is absolutely necessary to card everyone who buys cigarettes as not to sell to minors.

      Checking licences is quick, but is not as convienient as you may think. Since many students are out of state, I see at least 7 different states' licences (and thier many variations) at each shift. Every state has a different layout, orientation, and material (for instance, New Jersey licences seem to be nothing more than laminated paper, while PA licences are thick plastic cards). Worse yet, no state ever puts the date of birth in the same spot. While this may not seem like a problem at first, it is quite time consuming to constantly scan cards for DOB, picture, and expiration (as you cannot sell cigarettes to someone with an expired license).

      If everything was standardized, things would be much less time consuming. I know people become mighty frustrated when they have to hurry off to get drunk with their friends but need thier smokes right now. What would be so hard about having a standard layout? States could still embellish and add thier own features for security or other reasons, but to anyone who works with IDs all day, this would surely make life easier. The whole vertical layout for people under 21 is also a good idea, as it is really easy to tell if someone is of age by the orientation of the license, but it seems as this may be too easy to fake. Any ideas?

      • Re:I'm in conflict... (Score:3, Insightful)

        by vrt3 ( 62368 )
        I don't really get this: you hate national ID cards, but you have no problem with using driver licenses as an ID? Only difference I see is that someone who doesn't learn how to drive (assuming that such people exist in your country) doesn't have a driver license.

        Frankly, I don't really see what's so wrong with national ID cards. Perhaps it's just because I'm so used to it (I am from Belgium), but could someone explain why they are such a bad thing?

      • and expiration (as you cannot sell cigarettes to someone with an expired license).

        I've never understood this. The point of checking ID is to verify that you're above the legal smoking age, right? The point of the ID expiring is to make sure the info stays current, but your DOB isn't gonna change. So, if the only reason to check ID is to verify DOB, then why isn't an expired ID sufficient verification of your DOB?
        • ...to expire ID cards is so they have to be physically replaced every so often. I don't know about other states, but California's ID cards change every few years. The latest ones have a smaller version of the photo on another part of the card.

          As IDs get older, they become easier to forge. So if you force everyone to replace their IDs every 10 years, you make it harder to forge them overall.

          Of course, I doubt anyone would notice that they were presented with an "old style" ID card with a future expiratio

    • Electric Flow:Bad
      Electric Flow though Smart Card:Not Smart Card

    • Re:I'm in conflict... (Score:5, Funny)

      by Daleks ( 226923 ) on Saturday April 19, 2003 @04:57PM (#5765891)
      Java : good
      Exception in thread "main" java.identity.IdentityNotFoundException:
      Try explaining that to the police at 2AM.

  • National ID cards (Score:4, Funny)

    by martyn s ( 444964 ) on Saturday April 19, 2003 @03:21PM (#5765455)
    I hope the U.S. and A. uses C# for our National ID cards!

    • Re:National ID cards (Score:5, Funny)

      by Blaine Hilton ( 626259 ) on Saturday April 19, 2003 @03:34PM (#5765533) Homepage
      With all of the .net security holes we could choose to be anybody....
    • Assuming they use a 64bit key, so that Sun could legally export it from America, that's only 2^64 possible combinations, roughly 1.845E19. While that may be more than enough for the billions inhabiting the Earth; it's also rather easy to break if you have a few computers and prime number lookup table on DVD given enough time.

      I'm not saying that it's absolutely useless; time and computing power are still issues. How long would it take to break this if you "borrowed" your universities labs for processing
    • Sigh. The current SSN system is bad enough, but at least as Americans we didn't used to need no stinkin' badges. Until we get rid of a using a single national identifier number for everything, identity theft will be an increasing problem, and consumer tracking and electronically-assisted stalking and corrupt clerks selling license cards and control of individuals by taking away their IDs or licenses will just keep increasing.

      Unfortunately, the concept of giving people a stack of uncorrelatable tax ID nu

  • Well, (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Subnirvana337 ( 572385 ) on Saturday April 19, 2003 @03:24PM (#5765479)
    I always thought the term smart card was a bit..Oh I don't know, unfounded? It has a digital signature, great, what happens when it's stolen? And used against the owner? I'd like to see a card that had an image of your retina so they could tell if it was you, the eye has so many patterns, its almost impossible to fake. Cosmetics can already make someone look like someone else, but they havent figured out to replicate the eye yet...

    • Re:Well, (Score:2, Informative)

      by neurostar ( 578917 )

      Well, there's ways to fool retina scans IIRC. Bruce Schneider talked about one method a while back...

      neurostar

    • Re:Well, (Score:3, Interesting)

      by Subnirvana337 ( 572385 )
      I did see Minority Report, that's very true...Identies will ALWAYS be stolen, if people are determined to do something, they will. I quote Jimmy Buffet "Keys and locks are destined to be busted." By making it harder for the average person (or con "artist") to do some illegal, they'll work that much harder..
    • thats true.. eyes and fingers are much harder to steal then cards

    • Re:Well, (Score:4, Interesting)

      by primus_sucks ( 565583 ) on Saturday April 19, 2003 @03:55PM (#5765619)
      Personally I've had two identity theft incidents. One time someone in Japan (I'm in the US) used my credit/debit card number and cleaned out several thousand dollars from my bank account. Another incident, someone printed or obtained fake checks with my name on them. With the present system anyone with a laser printer can make checks and anyone who works at restaurant or gas station can collect credit card numbers. At least this system will hopefully make it harder. And hopefully if someone does steal your card or something you won't be held accountable for damages.

    • Re:Well, (Score:2, Informative)

      by MourningBlade ( 182180 )

      There are all sorts of ways to secure identity. Most good smartcard rollouts specify an interaction protocol, and the data required, and let the individual implementors come up with something to please people.

      Most people don't know just how much damage you can do with just someone's phone bill, and that's usually much easier to steal than their birth certificate.

      The point is that there are many, many areas of poor security. Expecting a smartcard (which can be de-activated under many systems, unlike a ph

    • Re:Well, (Score:3, Insightful)

      by Tim C ( 15259 )
      the eye has so many patterns, its almost impossible to fake

      Interesting use of the word "almost" there. So, what happens if/when a method to fake arbitrary retinal patterns is developed?

      The great thing about usernames and passwords, PINs, etc, is that if you have reason to think that someone else knows it, you can change it. You can't change your retinal pattern, or any other biometric data.

      If someone manages to fake your thumb print or retinal pattern, you're stuffed - you can't change them, and if that
  • The new mark [sun.com] of the beast?

  • Direct TV (Score:2, Informative)

    by synthox ( 229949 )
    Lets hope that a kid with a glitcher cannot reprogram these cards and steal identites like stealing satellite tv from Direct TV.

  • Java based??? (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Beetjebrak ( 545819 ) on Saturday April 19, 2003 @03:27PM (#5765486) Homepage
    Does a smartcard actually run a Java VM? I've always been under the impression that smartcards contain only data, and that applications run on the machines you plug your card into. Java-based smartcards sound like marketing speak to me really.
    • I only have a loose understanding of how these work, so please correct me if I'm wrong It's more than just carrying the key, it handles operations performed on the key. There are definitely programs that run on the card itself, as it is doing the key handling so that the key isn't ever exposed outside of the card.

      That being said, the Java card isn't running a Java VM. I thought it was technology acquired and put under the same Java brand, but it isn't exactly Java though.

    • Re:Java based??? (Score:2, Informative)

      by Hrshgn ( 595514 )
      Well, many smart cards (all?) have a microprocessor inside running their own firmware. They are powered by the reading machine though.

    • Re:Java based??? (Score:5, Informative)

      by c_oflynn ( 649487 ) on Saturday April 19, 2003 @03:49PM (#5765594)
      There are many types of smartcards.

      Some are the memory only type, where the card just has some sort of (normally secured) memory on it.

      Then there are also the microcontroller cards. These cards have memory and a microcontroller built into them. You can write a program on it to do something, however you don't exactly have a lot of I/O lines or anything (just a communications link actually).

      Most of the microcontroller smartcards have built-in encryption and decryption as well.

      Java is pretty popular for programming smartcards, but they even have BASIC for smartcards.

      The microcontroller only needs an external clock and power source, and will execute whatever program is on it.
    • I heard while Dr. Evil's smart card runs J2SE, Mini-Me's smart card run J2ME.

    • Re:Java based??? (Score:5, Informative)

      by Wesley Felter ( 138342 ) <wesley@felter.org> on Saturday April 19, 2003 @03:53PM (#5765609) Homepage
      Yes, Java Cards run a crippled, stripped-down, bastardized Java VM. There are also traditional smart cards that only do crypto and data storage, and then there are fake smart cards that hold data but can't do any processing.

    • Re:Java based??? (Score:5, Informative)

      by philfr ( 89798 ) on Saturday April 19, 2003 @03:59PM (#5765641)
      Memory cards only contain data, some parts read-only, some parts read-write, and some parts write once. They have been used since a long time for prepaid public phone cards or access control.
      Smart cards also contain a CPU, sometimes highly optimized for e.g. RSA encryption, and their data is available through a file system abstraction. Smart card suppliers call this an operating system...
      Multiple applications can run on these smart cards, which means you could theoretically have only one card for your ID card, your electronic purse and various loyalty cards (if your are not too worried about security/privacy issues in case of breaking into such a chip).
      Memory cards are also called synchronous cards and smart cards asynchronous cards. That's because of the nature of the serial protocol they use to communicate with the device that reads them.
      Smart cards have a real UART embedded, and implement one of two protocols (T0 and T1) defined in ISO 7816, the second of which is fairly complex and allows to multiplex communication between multiple applications running in the card reader and their peer inside the smart card.
      JavaCards embed a "JVM", but a very limited one: you can't just open a network connection or dynamically load a class. Sun specifies the precise subset of Java that corresponds to a JavaCard profile. But, yes, they run Java "cardplets"...
    • You are American, arn't you? Or at least Canadian. Both countries are far behind Europe in card technologies.

      OK, here is the difference. In North America you use magnetic cards for everything. Magnetic card only keeps data, while software works on a card reader device.

      All Europe use smart cards which are sort of micro-computers, the main task of which is encryption handling, doing it together with software on a card reader and thus doing it smarter. So, in Europe, card stealing doesn't help - it's too e

  • Please upgrade (Score:4, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday April 19, 2003 @03:28PM (#5765496)
    I am sorry sir. You can not get your prescription filled here. This Pharmacy is not Java enabled. Please wait until the next service pack release.

    Thank you. Please come back soon.

  • Big Brother or Good Sense? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday April 19, 2003 @03:29PM (#5765501)
    I'm very conflicted over the concept of a national ID system. One the one hand it could overcome many of the inadequacies of our state based identity system, like the ease of creating a viable fake. But combine a national ID system with a national database and I can just hear the Big Brother proponents rubbing their hands together in glee, as well as looking for an opportunity to persecute every illegal alien in the country. If the United States gives in to a national ID in the name of replacing an outdated system, must we at the same time provide the government with yet another tool to restrict our privacy?
    • Abuse of identity systems is what leads to many of the problems, and tracking people and their activities leads to many more of them. Even 20-30 years ago, US driver's licenses weren't primarily used as identity documents, except for tracking bad driving, though they were also used as age verification credentials for getting into bars. But that was when adults didn't need permission to work, and states were using DLs to track drivers rather than withholding them to harass Spanish speakers.

      During the mid

  • Good or bad? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Blaine Hilton ( 626259 ) on Saturday April 19, 2003 @03:30PM (#5765506) Homepage
    I realize there are many great uses for these Java cards, but I'm not sure if making it a national ID card is the best idea. The government can easily use this against the people and the privacy concerns are enormous. I believe a better implementation would be for banks to issue such as with credit cards and such, not as a device that every citizen may be required to ware.

    Go calculate [webcalc.net] something!

    • Re:Good or bad? (Score:4, Insightful)

      by Saib0t ( 204692 ) <[gro.dum-airepseh] [ta] [tobias]> on Sunday April 20, 2003 @03:32AM (#5767979)
      but I'm not sure if making it a national ID card is the best idea.
      As a belgian citizen, I can tell you that we already have a mandatory national ID card, so it's not much of a point.
      My national ID card has this on it:
      a picture
      Name
      Given Names
      Sex
      Date of Birth
      Place of Birth
      Signing authority
      My signature
      Address
      ID Card Number (2 of them)
      Spouse
      Children names

      It bears several things on it that make its counterfeiting difficult (like a nice color changing hologram-like shape of the country)

      The government can easily use this against the people and the privacy concerns are enormous.
      All these concerns are very legit in the USA, but from the people I have talked to, this is the "only" country where people are so afraid of being bigbrothered. I have a national ID card and I use it very seldom, and I really don't have the feeling that it is being used as a way to track my habbits down. On the other hand, my bank uses that ID number in their files, so does my social security company (social security is built in into the belgian system, but you have to have a "company" paying your stuff), and if I could, I'd actually encourage all these government bodies who require identification at one point or another to create that database, and give access to information about me on a need basis.

      The problem does not come from the traceability, these problem are a minor concern compared to the advantages.
      The real problem comes from trusting your government. The belgian political landscape (if I may speak of it thus) consists in dozens of parties, with 5 or 6 big players. This ensures that the same person don't stay in power very long if they don't do a good job, and there ARE alternatives to what is in place at the moment, and it's always a coalition of several parties that is running the country. This is one of the reasons I trust my government (to a large extent).

      Trust is the real problem...

      • Re:Good or bad? (Score:3, Interesting)

        by Blaine Hilton ( 626259 )
        Great response! I believe you hit it on the head about trusting the government. Here in the states we have 2 main political parties. Many people don't vote just because you can only vote for the lesser of the evils. You don't get a "warm fuzzy" feeling for voting for the good guy, because they are all pretty much a bag of liars. Lawers and politicans.... can't live with them and can't live with out them

  • Archaic (Score:4, Funny)

    by whereiswaldo ( 459052 ) on Saturday April 19, 2003 @03:30PM (#5765508) Journal
    It won't be long and we'll be saying "why in hell did we create an identity card?! Each person is their own identity. Cards can be stolen, altered. People cannot (undetectably).

    I guess I don't get it.
    • people can look like each other, numbers are unique

    • Re:Archaic (Score:4, Insightful)

      by King_TJ ( 85913 ) on Saturday April 19, 2003 @03:56PM (#5765624) Journal
      Actually, I think you *do* get it - and unfortunately, many folks seem to be overlooking the obvious in their quest for a higher-tech and more convenient lifestyle.

      There simply won't be any more guarantee that any of us are really who we claim to be, just because we hold a "smartcard" that identifies us as being a certain person.

      In fact, most banks/lenders currently require 3 forms of I.D. to do such things as open a new checking account. That's because the closest thing to a guarantee of identity they have is forcing you to provide multiple proofs. Putting all the proverbial eggs in one basket, as a smartcard does, doesn't make much sense to me.

  • Blah (Score:5, Funny)

    by FrostedWheat ( 172733 ) on Saturday April 19, 2003 @03:36PM (#5765538)
    I use my Slashdot ID for all my identity needs.

    Hmm.. maybe I shouldn't have said that.

  • FYI (Score:5, Informative)

    by bdejong ( 312792 ) on Saturday April 19, 2003 @03:40PM (#5765554) Homepage
    For you information:
    belgium allready has non-digital ID cards, which are obligatory to every citizen. You are even obligated to carry them around at any time and CAN be asked to show them to police if they have "reason" to suspect you of something.

    You could have a look at mine, for example...
    http://studwww.rug.ac.be/~bdejong/id.jpg [rug.ac.be]
    • You are required to carry ID in the US as well. Big deal. Get stopped without a driver's license or some form of ID coming out of a bar or such, and they can hold you until they know who you are.
      • Naw. If you're intoxicated or have car keys...that cna happen though
      • We live in a society that all anonymity has been removed.

        Having to produce ID on demand with no cause of provocation other then you are breathing is just one example of this.

        This free-fall needs to be stopped..

      • Re:FYI (Score:3, Informative)

        by bungo ( 50628 )
        You are required to carry ID in the US as well. Big deal.

        It is a big deal here (in Belgium).

        If you don't have your card, you can be arrested and held in a cell until you are able to prove your identity.

        This is anywhere, anytime - not just walking out of a bar, or driving a car. Stand too long on a street corner, or if the police think you're looking at them in a funny way, or be the wrong skin colour in thewrong area - with no official id, you can be held for a long time.

        If you're from north Africa,
      • Coming out of a bar you might need your ID, but you don't generally need to have an ID unless you are engaging in some restricted activity (like driving, drinking, or buying butane lighters :). Outside of those situations you don't have to tell the police who you are or show them an ID, or carry any ID or even answer any question at all (though that might be cause for suspicious, etc. etc...)

        Your Rights and the Police [drizzle.com] says more, though it's not updated for these days of diminishing rights. And this pa

    • Nice Hair! (Score:3, Insightful)

      by Jordy ( 440 )
      There only real negative to a digital card is that companies can start asking for them and easily start filling their databases with your information.

      Manually copying down information from the front of the card is far too time consuming and obvious. Plus, you can only fit so much information on it.

      There are of course technical ways to design digital ID systems and laws you can put in place to prevent this from happening on any kind of scale, but I fear these cards were not designed with privacy in mind.
      • Manually copying down information from the front of the card is far too time consuming and obvious.

        You right. That's why whenever I have to hand over my identity card, they take a photocopy of it.

        Obvious, eh?

        Maybe not, if you don't live in a country with mandatory id cards.

        • No company has ever taken photocopies of my drivers license. That would be considered inappropriate. If they want my date of birth, ID numbers, etc., they ask me for them.

          But as I said before, they start sticking medical history, family records, etc., on a card like this and you are just asking companies to abuse it.
          • No company has ever taken photocopies of my drivers license. That would be considered inappropriate.

            Ever tried to rent an apartment? Or get a job? That's two places that always ask to photocopy my driver's license.

            I'm all for having something that can help me prove my identity to random folks like apartment managers, but not something that they can use to get other information about me.

    • Re:FYI (Score:3, Interesting)

      by vrt3 ( 62368 )
      I'm from Belgium too, and knowing some people who are with the police, they always say it's not necessary to carry it all the time. It's enough to be able to show it once you get home; it happens they drive you home in order to do that. But I don't know if that's law or just standard procedure.

      Even that happens very infrequently. I'm 28 know, and I had to show my ID card only once to the police, and that was when I moved and a (very friendly, by the way) police man came to check that I was really living t

  • ... BlackBoard IDs [slashdot.org] on these things!

    -- Dossy
    (Still waiting on the saliva analyzing biometric device. Nothing like spitting to authenticate yourself.)

  • Snake oil. (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Jade E. 2 ( 313290 ) <slashdot@perlstorm . n et> on Saturday April 19, 2003 @03:49PM (#5765593) Homepage
    "Jan Deprest, President of Fedict, the Federal ICT department" said in the article:
    It will allow Belgian citizens to authenticate themselves in an easy and
    completely secure electronic way whenever they access e-government applications.
    [emphasis added]

    Sounds like he's (she's?) been listening to a snake oil salesman at Sun. Last time I checked, nothing was completely secure, least of all smart cards...

  • Fundamental Flaws (Score:5, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday April 19, 2003 @04:01PM (#5765648)
    I was at an E-Gov day some months ago, where this was presented and discussed. (Vince Rijmen, of AES fame was there talking about how they solved the problems associated with e-voting). Some of the comments really scared me:

    1) The keypairs on the card will be pre-generated when the citizen receives the card. IMHO a private key that has been in someone else's hands/machine is totally useless. This of course allows for involutary escrow..

    2) The Belgian Federal Gov representative (Peter Strickx, ex-Sun, by total coincidence) plainly declared they do not want to have the necessary expertise in-house, but wants to outsource the whole thing (to Sun and ZETES, it now seems)

    So this will put our identities (and the authentication/non-repudiation/existence of some very important personal documents) at the mercy of a couple of *private companies*, one of them American, no less, at a time when the US is governed by a madman, that gets away with secret military tribunals and illegal warmongering..

    Some of the excuses, when I asked about this were that the .be gov already uses much outsourced security for its own communications!

    I say this is unacceptable and an enormous security blunder. Verisign, a US company, could issue some revocations, and thereby completely stop the flow of information inside the .be gov!

    Do I they want the US gov to be able to screw around with any .be citizen's identity? It would seem to be so..

    Please forgive me for using AC for once, one would get paranoid for a low less...
    • 1) The keypairs on the card will be pre-generated when the citizen receives the card. IMHO a private key that has been in someone else's hands/machine is totally useless. This of course allows for involutary escrow..

      This really depends on if the private key is generated on the card itself or on a separate machine and transferred to the card. Given decent tamper resistance, you shouldn't be too afraid of the card generating the private key.

      2) The Belgian Federal Gov representative (Peter Strickx, ex-Sun,

  • Easily defeated? (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Pettifogger ( 651170 )
    Yeah, but just how durable is this chip? I personally took offense at the magnetic strip on my driver's license, and it just so happened that my ID had an unfortunate "accidental" experience with a large, powerful electromagnet.

    If I get one of these new java IDs forced on me, it might just be "accidentally" directly exposed to 1500 watts of RF. Maybe "accidentally" take a spin on the turntable in the microwave, too.

    So what's the point of making this stuff if the people who don't like it can easily def

  • Obligatory Hitchhikers' reference (Score:3, Funny)

    by NewbieProgrammerMan ( 558327 ) on Saturday April 19, 2003 @04:03PM (#5765660)
    Maybe the existence of a Java-based national ID card is the unspeakable concept [bbc.co.uk] mentioned in the Guide.

  • Why do I need a Java card? (Score:3, Funny)

    by AndroidCat ( 229562 ) on Saturday April 19, 2003 @04:09PM (#5765681) Homepage
    I mean, I've already got one of those Starbucks cards with $15 still on it!

  • Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)

    by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Saturday April 19, 2003 @04:13PM (#5765693)
    Comment removed based on user account deletion

    • Well, I can't speak for anyone else around here, but I think they're bad for two reasons. The first is practical. I just don't think that a national ID card (java or no java) can be made secure enough yet to justify the amount of trust that those who don't understand security will invariably put in it. If you have a number of different cards, then you aren't "putting all of your eggs in one basket."

      The second reason is philisophical. Although it may make life easier, or even safer, I don't feel that t

      • People in the US have a basic mistrust of the government that goes way back. This is reinforced by the general ineptitude of beurocracies that every country sees. Add to that the fact that the US is a federation of states and National anything always sounds like a bad idea and a power grab. Hell, we didn't really have a peace time army until after WII.

        The pracitcal complaint about national ID cards is that they add very little to security or convenience but have a potential to be abused. It doesn't mat
      • The second reason is philisophical. Although it may make life easier, or even safer, I don't feel that the government has a right to know where I am at any given time.

        I have an ID card (though not digital yet), and it doesn't enable the government to know where I am at any given time. They know where I live, but that's about it. I might be on sunny beach in Spain or in the forrests of Sweden and they wouldn't know.

    • Why is national id cards a bad idea? Are people afraid that the government will track them. Who really gives a fuck if it allows the government to track you with it? They could do that anyway if they really cared enough. I simply don't get it.

      I deal with this kind of apatahy every day in the states. Let's dissect this:

      Who really gives a fuck if it allows the government to track you with it?

      I do. Are you willing to make the blanket statement all actions in which your ID card would be entangled can

      • Are you willing to make the blanket statement all actions in which your ID card would be entangled can be and should be freely monitored by your country's officials?

        In the US, we elect our officials. I *want* to be monitored by officials that are working to protect us. Monitoring is good, if someone does something bad, I want the government to do something about it. I, for one, don't do bad things and have nothing to hide. I'm sure that millions of other Americans feel the same way.

        The bad thing com

        • In the US, we elect our officials. I *want* to be monitored by officials that are working to protect us. Monitoring is good, if someone does something bad, I want the government to do something about it. I, for one, don't do bad things and have nothing to hide. I'm sure that millions of other Americans feel the same way.

          No, you probably _DO_ have quite a bit to hide, and this idea of "I have nothing to hide" is a huge bulk of my discontent. Ever downloaded an illicit MP3? Maybe you plan on running a h

    • Re:Why is national id cards / numbers bad ? (Score:2, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward
      I believe the argument goes:

      We only really want to track whitches. Oh, now we only want to track Jews, Jehova's Whitnesses, gays, and political dissidents. Oh, strike that, now we only want to track communists. Strike that, now we only want to track Arabs, I mean big bad terrorists. Now put your vauables in that pile, your clother over there and go take your shower with all of the other accused unlawful combatants and enemy supporters in protective custody.

      Fear of revolution keeps governments inline.

  • Why is the gut reaction "bad"? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by claes ( 25551 ) on Saturday April 19, 2003 @04:13PM (#5765698)
    In Sweden, id cards needs to conform to certain standards, that are set by the same authority that standardizes many other things (www.sis.se). I do not know the details of this, but I think it is good that it is under control of a government authority. There is nothing mandatory with carrying them around, or even having them. We don't call them national id cards either, but they are accepted as id-cards everywhere. In Sweden that is... since they don't have the nationality of the owner on them, they are no good for travelling within Schengen yet.

    It all comes down in what ways you trust your government of course. In this regard I trust it. For example, the nationality thing was hotly debated, since the reason we don't have nationality is that it would be discriminating for non-swedish citizens to have their nationality on them. Or so it was argued. But the government had to change for public opinion because of this, being part of Schengen is not really good if you still need passport when travelling...

  • to much paranoia... (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward
    I think a lot of people are to paranoid about ID cards. The fact that the current system, being paper cards, is replaced by a digital should only be encouraged. I suspect the the smart cards will not contain more data then is currently printed on the paper one.

    So, it will only make it easier for law enforcement to access you personal data without passing thrue 15nr. codes and typing out difficult names. I don't think they are going to store criminal records on the card itself so, nothing changes except the

  • Pros and cons of centralized identity services. (Score:4, Insightful)

    by vkg ( 158234 ) on Saturday April 19, 2003 @04:31PM (#5765763) Homepage
    Pros
    ~~~~
    1> the "single sign-on" life.
    2> a single system to secure.
    3> a proper unique ID for all activity.

    Cons
    ~~~~
    1> complete monitoring by whoever runs the ID system.
    2> a single system to crack
    3> complete integration of all databases at will

    Those are not minor pros. In a perfect surveilance society, a "vending machine" is a refrigerator and a tip jar.

    • Slipping through the cracks. (Score:5, Insightful)

      by vkg ( 158234 ) on Saturday April 19, 2003 @04:43PM (#5765815) Homepage
      One of the potential benefits of "hard identity" systems is that a lot of radicals and weirdos currently "slip through the cracks".

      And that's not a good thing, for two reasons:

      1> The evil ones cause problems for everybody.
      2> The good ones opt out of the system, rather than fighting to change it.

      In the same way that the fastest way to fix a legal system is uniform enforcement of all current laws it's possibly that an iron-clad, centralized identity system would stamp out abuses because it would force participation.

      It's very, very hard to predict the eventual effects of technological changes like these.

      When the automobile was invented, nobody expected that it would revolutionize the sex lives of Americans, and yet it changed sexual culture more than anything except the pill.

      Digital identity is shaping up to be the same way: changes everything, changes nothing, and then BAM you turn around and your world/culture has been turned upside down.

  • Starbucks (Score:2, Funny)

    by petabyte ( 238821 )
    Sigh, starbucks conquers another country. They must be stopped!

  • Id card is not a bad thing (Score:3, Interesting)

    by master_p ( 608214 ) on Saturday April 19, 2003 @06:20PM (#5766254)
    The main purpose of an id card is to track down citizens. I come from a country that citizens have to have an Id card by law. There is no problem with privacy, I can re-assure you.

    If the government wanted to file me, they wouldn't depend on the id. They could have my whole history, photos, whatever. The id card offers nothing to the government, other than a document to identify me. It has the same use as a driver's licence.

    By the way, a citizen leaves so many tracks behind him these days...from school, to work, to web accounts, to credit cards, to bank accounts...the id card is almost irrelevant.

  • In jail in Belgium (Score:3, Interesting)

    by theolein ( 316044 ) on Sunday April 20, 2003 @04:30AM (#5768071) Journal
    When I was in Belgium for the first time in 1986, I ended up spending a wekend in jail because I had forgotten my passport at a friend's house. Belgium has had an obligatory ID Card carrying law for a long time, which they can and do use to put you away if you don't have any ID.

    I never liked Belgium anyway ;)

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