PC/104 Embedded Consortium Design Winners

An anonymous reader writes "The PC/104 Embedded Consortium announced the winners of its first PC/104 Design Contest, at the Embedded Systems Conference today in San Francisco. The awards recognize engineers designing innovative systems and devices based on the consortium's PC/104 and PC/104-Plus standards. Winners were announced in three categories: Commercial for industrial/medical/transportation/other; Commercial for military/aerospace/COTS; and Research Project. Read the full story at Linuxdevices.com. Lots of images!"

wait a sec

[B3ryllium]

Does this mean full sized keyboards on laptops, numpad and all?

Kickass! :)

Re:wait a sec

[Lxy]

Does this mean full sized keyboards on laptops, numpad and all?

I have no idea what this article is about. I agree with a few others I've seen in the last few days, I have no idea what this project is. 104 key keyboards on my embedded devices? Sweet!

its like a little, square motherboards dealy ...

[polished look 2]

and not a keyboard. But its neat because one can stack them and add more functionality so the pc's turn out like a cube.

Rapid development?

[Blaine Hilton]

The PC/104 seems to have many uses, is this board the embedded peoples' Visual Basic type rapid prototyping board?

Go calculate [webcalc.net] something

Re:Rapid development?

[PerlGuru]

I'm not a PC/104 expert but from all that I've read that is a pretty good summation. Of course, a regular person could build a standard PC out of it. Along those same lines you could take that standard, other then size, and use it as a compact MP3 player.

One of the greatest aspects is the stacking ability, just place the modules one over the other with them connecting with a header. I've seen everything from I/O with serial/parallel etc to 10/100 ethernet and then of course other interface boards w/ A/

Re:Rapid development?

[Jennifer Ever]

Pc/104 is basically ISA in a stacked format, which allows it to have a small form factory and good mechanical stability.

Re:I'm not comfortable

[Anonymous Coward]

Deal with it. A large portion of Comp. Sci research that leads to such great products such as: GPS, WiFi and Ethernet all were supported by DARPA and other defense releated government research organizations.

Re:I'm not comfortable

[PerlGuru]

They don't state that that particular project utilizes linux, it simply uses the PC/104 standard for *hardware*. PC/104 is a hardware spec not a software spec.

WOW

[Anonymous Coward]

Top prize went to a PC which... controls glue guns? Why does this not seem like a high caliber of utility that you should be able to provide with that much computing power.

Top research prize went to a steer by wire system. This is already employed in race cars and ferrari's alike. How is something already in production considered research?

Maybe I am out of touch with the embedded niche, but this seems totally anti-clamictic and a little lame

Re:WOW

[Anonymous Coward]

"Top research prize went to a steer by wire system. This is already employed in race cars and ferrari's alike. How is something already in production considered research?"

I have yet to see a Ferrari or race car that employs a steer-by-wire system. TROTTLE-by-wire, yes. The only things that I can think of that use steer-by-wire systems are larger ships, most modern military aircraft, and some civilian aircraft like most (all?) Airbus models.

Maybe you are

[Chazmati]

Do you work in industry? I don't mean the IT industry, but some branch of manufacturing?

Modern manufacturing plants are extensively automated. Logic control 30 years ago was all done with hardwired relays and timers, then 20 years ago with programmable logic controllers (PLC's), and now there are virtual PLC's running in x86-based PC's with extensive networking between controllers. There are DSP's in sensors, web guides, vision systems, and even glue gun controls. Technology has driven production speeds higher and higher, and now we need more sophisticated control systems on all sorts of equipment.

Re:Maybe you are

[SN74S181]

I've heard that the origin of PLC's being called that was because they got some sort of an exception from the Union by not being called a computer. Unions have traditionally been anti-Automation, and anything that says 'computer' on it is bound to be viewed with hostility.

Maybe somebody can confirm or contradict this. I found it interesting when a friend who's done a lot of industrial control systems told me.

Re:Maybe you are

[FuzzyBad-Mofo]

Well, the PLC shares some qualities with general-purpose computers, namely, the ability to store instuctions. However, I wouldn't call it a computer.

From what I remember during my college work with PLCs: The device is mainly a large number of relays in a box, run by a microcontroller, with numerous hookups for the equipment to be controlled.

Re:WOW

[toddestan]

I could see using an AMD Athlon processor in a hot glue gun. Not only would it melt the glue like crazy, you could run Linux on it! Now imagine a beowolf cluster of hot glue guns... oh... maybe not then.

Re:WOW

[homer_ca]

"Top research prize went to a steer by wire system. This is already employed in race cars and ferrari's alike."

Not exactly. Many cars have a drive-by-wire throttle, even relatively inexpensive cars like Nissan Maximas. All steering is still done by a direct mechanical linkage. There have been a few experimental research and concept cars with drive-by-wire steering.

Re:WOW

[evanbd]

OK, let's see. 16 glue guns at 900 meters per minutes, with 0.5 millimeter accuracy. 16 micro (not mili) second timings on 16 different devices is hard, especially if you're computing on the fly where you want them. Sounds impressive to me. Granted, it's only an incremental improvement over 16 different boxes, each somewhat larger, and computing the paths in advance, but those incremental improvements are important, and some of them pose nasty technical challenges.

very good systems

[Vej]

These are very useful systems in confined space and need for solid-state development.

Only problem I've ever had designing something with them, depending of course on the manufacturer who supplies stacks and hd/OS, accessing it from another system or adding external hardware to it. Very embedded. But that's the point :)

Some Good Info on PC/104

[Michael's a Jerk!]

can be found Here [controlled.com] Promises to be an interesting standard.

Re:Some Good Info on PC/104

[Usquebaugh]

It's been out for years, nothing promising, it already is a great standard.

Noob.

Re:Some Good Info on PC/104

[SN74S181]

But isn't PC/104 still just an embedded AT-bus system? That would mean it's an 8 MHz 16 bit data path, wouldn't it? Please confirm or refute this, I haven't looked at PC/104 specs in years, and the bus may have evolved.

Re:Some Good Info on PC/104

[robslimo]

First, there was the original PC/104 spec, which was/is basically the ISA bus in a different (smaller, stackable) form factor. Expansion cards can have an 8 (PC/XT) or 16 bit (AT or ISA) data path.

The latest spec is PC/104 Plus, which added another connector and is electrically the same as the PCI bus.

Surf to http://pc104.org for the specifications.

I've used PC/104 cards in embedded systems since shortly after they came out. You can get a complete, networkable computer system with any IO/data acquisiti

Re:Some Good Info on PC/104

[Hoser McMoose]

Promises to be an interesting standard?! I'd say that it's more of an outdated standard that is sufficient for the task, but could use a bit of refreshing!

PC/104 is hardly new, actually it's been around for a while (initial spec came out in '92), and it's all based around an AT bus (bleah!). Fortunately they already have a replacement, PC/104-Plus, which uses a PCI bus instead of the old AT bus (though it retains backwards compatability). Even that standard has been around for 5 or 6 years though.

The r

PC 104 in a nutshell

[Silicon_Knight]

PC 104 is basically a form factor, just like ATX, mini-ATX, mini-ITX, etc. It is one of the smallest form factor out there, largely used in industrial automation setup.

The one characteristic that makes PC104 interesting is the "pass through" bus connector. Consisting of 104 pins (hence it's name), you stack modules of extension card on the base board, and build vertically your components. See link:

PC104 FAQ with pictures [controlled.com]

They tend to be pretty low power consumption, and there are a mind boggling array of PC104 modules out there, from radio modems to GPS receivers to servo controllers and 3 axis accelerometers. For hobby use, I wouldn't really go with them, since they are more expensive than the much cheaper mini-itx boards (which is what I will be using for my next car computer).

Mini-ITX info link [mini-itx.com]

Man, reading through the projects - they outfitted a 1997 Corvette with a "fly by wire" steering. My god, I wish my research lab has the amount of cash handy to buy a corvette for a ressearch project...

-=- Terence

Re:PC 104 in a nutshell

[ergonal]

There's also the PC/104 Specification (PDF) [pc104.org] and the PC/104-Plus Specification (PDF) [pc104.org].

But does it run Linux?

[drayzel]

From the article...
"Its operator interface consists of a quarter-VGA color LCD with a touch screen, driven by a 486 single board computer running Windows CE."

I was hopeing to find some of the winners using Linux, but the only mention of OS in the article was Windows CE.

Whatever works for each individual application I guess!

~Z

Re:But does it run Linux?

[Helmholtz Coil]

Yep, they sure do. I've got two PC/104 projects going right now, another two potentials, and they all depend on Linux.

Check out EMAC [emacinc.com]'s page for more info on running Linux. You know with a name like that they must support Linux! ;)

Lots of Images??

[GraZZ]

Sounds like a /.ing challenge!

I know it's an old lame joke...

[dJCL]

but, think about a beowulf cluster built on these....

ok, seriuosly, you could create an interesting parallel processing computer in a very small stack from these things, and I've seen some with quite reasonable performance...

something for me to mess with when I win the lottery... until then, I'll stick with the cluster of amazing junk I currently use...

Enjoy

Re:I know it's an old lame joke...

[JesseL]

Unfortunatley, you cannot build multi CPU systems by stacking multiple PC/104 motherboards. The PC/104 bus is just a 16-bit ISA bus (PC/104+ adds another connector for PCI) that runs through an unusual connector. See this [controlled.com] from the PC/104 FAQ

No love for PC/104

[SuperQ]

I've never had any kind of interest in PC/104.. it's an old standard, the PC/104 pass-through bus is ISA based. Every time I try and find out prices, it's been $400-500 for a devel board, no one seems to think about selling them in small quantities. You only get a 33mhz 486 for that $400 board..

I have recently come to enjoy working with Soekris boards.. http://www.soekris.com

The guy does things right.. Compact flash slots on board for OS, no over-priced Disk-On-Chip stuff. PCI or mini-pci slots, 133mhz AMD Elan chips, PCMCIA slots on some models.. serial port and simple network bootable flash. and 2-3 PCI 10/100 ethernet chips.. a similar PC/104 board would be stacked 4cm tall with adapter boards, all stuck on a ISA bus.

Re:No love for PC/104

[apharov]

No wonder you have no love for PC/104 if you're so prejudiced that you don't even bother reading the specs of PC/104+, which has a PCI bus.

For example the system you are talking about can be achieved using only 2 PC/104 boards (+1 board for power), with standard 2,5" HDD if you don't like SSDs. I know because I was just testing such a system yesterday, and you'll find the boards too by browsing the web a bit. And oh wait, you'll also get an 300Mhz processor with that system.

Re:No love for PC/104

[SuperQ]

so we're now down to 3 boards instead of 4+, major improvement if you ask me.

Soekris will have the 300mzh NatSemi CPU in a month or so, and is expected to be under $300.

I like the huge I/O systems you can stack on the PC/104 spec, but with ethernet I/O and other fast bus I/O parts, it's not really necessary to have it stacked on the system board.

I browsed some of these vendors and sites before.. one vendor I talked to at comdex was asking $800 for a base PC/104+ board.

Not that I do much with embeded s

Re:No love for PC/104

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.openbrick.com/ [openbrick.com]

Re:No love for PC/104

[Tailhook]

Ebay: pentium class for $99
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem &item =2723531709&category=179

Re:No love for PC/104

[ebbe11]

The guy does things right.. Compact flash slots on board for OS, no over-priced Disk-On-Chip stuff. etc. etc.

But no second source...

It's a standard

[wiredog]

And industrial automation is a very conservative field. Conservative meaning "why use something new and untried when we have something old that is known to work?" Conservative meaning that MS-DOS was still being used into the late 90's for non-real time embedded apps. It may not have been stable, but it's faults, and how to avoid them, were well understood, making it a fairly robust OS.

Similarly, while PC/104 is not new, fast, or high powered, it is stable, robust, and everyone knows it.

Oh, and one of the reasons that 33mhz 486s are used is because they can handle hot environments without melting down. What would happen if you put an Athlon or P4 in an unventilated cabinet in a plating shop in Oklahoma in August? 100 degrees F on the outside of the cabinet.

Another reason for high cost of PC/104 is robustness. How well does the Soekris board handle vibration? Will the CF chip wiggle its way out of the slot? These are used in systems that have to have near-mainframe reliability. If the system crashes (sometimes literally, if it's an automated multiple-hoist line) due to a hardware failure, with a millionm dollars worth of product in the line, there will be a technician on an airplane that day. A stable, robust, PC/104 board is a hell of a lot cheaper than that!

Re:It's a standard

[Jim Morash]

Hear hear. PC104 isn't cheap, but many of the manufacturers do a great job making parts that are reliable and TOUGH.

At work I use Kontron (Jumptec) boards in a variety of robots, running linux, I'm very happy with them.

Stupid PC/104

[LordMyren]

Who cares baout pc/104? It seems more like an excuse to put pins instead of pci slots, and then throw on a $400 price tag and charge at least $100 for every perphipherial you could want.

PC/104 sounded like an embedded dream when i heard about it. Its still one i'm not rich enough to afford.

Re:Stupid PC/104

[JesseL]

For industrial environments with any vibration, normal ISA and PCI slots are a total nightmare, PC/104 connectors are very rugged due to large contact areas and very strong retention. For hobbiests, PC/104 isn't ideal because the volumes are so low compared to commodity PC hardware, making it seem unreasonably expensive. For the people who really need PC/104 it makes perfect sense.

mobile media

[bryanthompson]

I was going to use PC104 to build a computer for my car. They're perfect because of their size and low power, but it's almost as simple these days to get a mini-itx [mini-itx.com] board and do it that way. I ended up going with an old 486, but i'm hoping to rebuild the project... mp3car [mp3car.com] has a lot of projects like this, a few use PC104

Gimmee a hammer, sailor!!

[malia8888]

Quoting from the article: Space is a factor on a submarine and PC/104's small form factor allowed Thow to fit six boards into a small enclosure.....PC/104 boards are also ideal for this application because they are rugged. The NIU had to be grade B shock certified. This means the equipment has to be able to withstand nine indirect hammer impacts.

Wouldn't water be a bigger hazard on a sub than hammers?

*ducking hammer blows from those who take this post seriously*

Re:Gimmee a hammer, sailor!!

[Tailhook]

Wouldn't water be a bigger hazard on a sub than hammers?

Condensation, yes. But actual flowing water? By the time the pc-104 device gets wet you probably have bigger problems anyhow...

Submarines get torpedoed and depth charged. This tends to rattle the boat. Hard. Can't have your navigation system blink out just because someone is tossing bombs at you.

Good Stuff.

[ZenShadow]

A while ago I got the bug to design an MP3 player for my car, and needed some embedded hardware for it (unfortunately this happened right before I moved back accross the US, and I lost interest after that, what with work an' all). I ended up picking up a buscuit PC board from www.advantech.com. It was like $500 at the time, but had everything on it -- audio, ethernet, IDE, floppy, VGA, LCD, a bunch of serial ports, and a PC/104 port that I intended to use for a PCMCIA adapter (wireless support).

These thi

Re:Good Stuff.

[Jennifer Ever]

Yeah I used to sell those boards (and complete systems!) on eBay all the time. Quite rugged and versatile and not too-underpowered with a 200MHz Pentium MMX and 128MBs of RAM. I've been considering trying to find one for some projects around here now, but Via's MiniITX boards are looking like a better bet, for the most part.