"Missing Link" In Windows Emulation Unveiled? 458
ben_ writes "According to this article on inq7.net, a Philippines company called SpecOps has revealed their Project David, a middleware layer that solves the problem Wine has been working at for years and will "enable all major Microsoft Windows applications to run on the free and open source Linux OS".
Further (and more sceptical) analysis at Linux Electrons." I'm with Linux Electrons on this; as nice as it sounds, the information about David comes via Press Release which as we all know are founts of dependability *cough*.
Yeah, but... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Yeah, but... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Yeah, but... (Score:5, Informative)
Linux is a kernel. A distro is an operating system.
Re:Yeah, but... (I'll bite) (Score:5, Informative)
The (academic) definition of "operating system" is "interface to the hardware".
"kernel" in unix terms is synonymous with "operating system".
"distro" is "operating environment".
If you *really* want a complete rant on this, I have written one [uklinux.net], sad individual that I am.
In future, please refer to a recognised textbook (suggestions in the link above) before jumping in.
Re:Yeah, but... (I'll bite) (Score:5, Insightful)
/ The foundation software of a machine; that which schedules tasks, allocates storage, and presents a default interface to the user between applications"
Default interface to the user? Sounds like a shell to me.
So there you go -- operating system = kernel + shell. (One could argue for a bootloader as well)
Re:Yeah, but... (I'll bite) (Score:4, Funny)
So there you go -- operating system = kernel + shell. (One could argue for a bootloader as well)
So you're telling me I have to start calling my OS Korn/Linux? (At least I'm not stuck running Csh/Linux. That OS sucks.)
Re:Yeah, but... (I'll bite) (Score:3, Informative)
For the actual default interface, there's really only the API, sysrq-commands, and device drivers (including the virtual console stuff). Everything else, no matter how fundamental, is an application and is therefore not between applications.
On the other hand, the co
Re:Yeah, but... (Score:5, Informative)
First of all, lets define an operating system (roughly, for the sake of argument): The operating system is software used to allow applications a standardized method for using system resources.
In DOS, applications would make calls to interrupt 0x21 to access system resources like files and memory.
If Windows 9X were a GUI that used DOS as it's operating system, then it would use interrupt 0x21 for all of its I/O.
Windows 9X, upon initialization, replaces the context of DOS with it's own. It switches the processor to 386 Protected mode and installs its own set of hardware, filesystem, network, and other drivers. It replaces the int 0x21 interface with its own. Applications use Windows 9X for access to system resources (ram, files, network, etc.) Also, this emulation is miserably slow.
Windows 9X does have code to allow Windows 9X to use DOS drivers (The 16bit drivers, if you will.) However, This is done by creating a virtual 8086 context, and making calls to int 0x21. This, however, is not recommended and is provided for backwards compatability. (Think of it as Windows 9X emulating DOS to allow the drivers to operate.)
Also, Windows 9X will return the computer to the DOS context that it replaced when it "quits". However, that context is not used (with the exception of the above paragraph) for the normal operation of the computer.
Windows 9X has its own kernel, its own drivers, and is very much a complete, functional operating system. Yes, it may be bug ridden and broken, however, it is a real operating system.
Honestly, a more accurate statement. would be that DOS is a bootloader for Windows 9X.
Re:Yeah, but... (Score:3, Insightful)
It switches the processor to 386 Protected mode and installs its own set of hardware, filesystem, network, and other drivers. It replaces the int 0x21 interface with its own. Applications use Windows 9X for access to system resources (ram, files, network, etc.)
By that standard, Windows 3.1 in 386 Enhanced Mode with 32-Bit Disk Access enabled was an operating system, too, back in 1992. It did all of that too.
Re:Yeah, but... (Score:3, Informative)
Huh? DOS is also a "true" OS from Microsoft.
Re:Reminder (Score:5, Funny)
Wonder what MS will do to quash this? (Score:2, Interesting)
Jaysyn
Re:Wonder what MS will do to quash this? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Wonder what MS will do to quash this? (Score:5, Interesting)
Innovate (Score:5, Interesting)
Linux really needs a killer usability app. Something like a personal google that would allow you to recollect ANY information you've ever viewed in your browser - complex search features that don't look complex. Instead of freaking out over google's 1GB email system, port that search functionality to the linux desktop and make it possible to do all the same stuff WITHOUT having to store your email on google's farm. Instead of trying to port games and catch up on drivers for fancy graphics cards, court a hardware maker and invest some GPL lovin' into a graphics engine. Or court IBM and get them to migrate even more of that functionality to the CPU cores - I'm sure Apple would love that too.
There's so many ways linux is this close to outdistancing Windows, but none of them are complete enough to be of use to joe average. And if WINE/David/whatever would allow windows apps to be used on linux AND linux has capabilities that windows doesn't - and people can see and feel those differences themselves - then this is a good thing. So long as linux is playing catch-up, 'tho, this is nothing but one more tool for MS to point at and say "See? We set the standards! Why would you look anywhere else?"
Re:Innovate (Score:3, Insightful)
If we want a genuinely user-friendly word processor (as opposed to one that gives the illusion of user-friendliness by imitating MS Word---which is still a useful goal, kudos to those doing it), we should not add more complexity. We should have a simple, nice looking word processor that does the basics that most people use and do
You're missing an important point, though (Score:3, Interesting)
That alone will attract a LOT of people. Assuming Linux takes the high road on the topic of DRM, etc. - chances are good that it will definitely remain a competitive choice at the very least.
Read the OSNews article on david (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Read the OSNews article on david (Score:2)
More info (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Read the OSNews article on david (Score:3, Funny)
You're new here aren't you?
Re:Read the OSNews article on david (Score:4, Informative)
That is enough basis to say it's crap, since it's nonexistent.
did lindows pull off the 100% magical windows emulation? no it didn't. this system has just as much credibility.
Re:Read the OSNews article on david (Score:5, Funny)
Well... you have to give it to them... they still don't have any bugs
Re:Read the OSNews article on david (Score:3, Funny)
Sure they do. They have exactly one bug: Windows programs fail to execute when run under Linux.
Leaked code (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Leaked code (Score:2)
Re:Leaked code (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Leaked code (Score:2)
That is assuming it's not all a lie.
Re:Leaked code (Score:3, Funny)
I do believe that half of zero is still zero :-)
College students have had source long before leak (Score:3, Interesting)
Wine developers response. (Score:5, Informative)
http://www.winehq.com/hypermail/wine-devel/2004/0
is the web page broken or am I retard? (Score:3, Informative)
I can't navigate into any of these subsections: Project David Overview
David Technology
David Technology Validations
David Development Plan
from the overview page, however if one dives to the source and manually types the address for one of the later pages. the rest of the pages are full of nice stuff like 'WES', 'WACS' and shit like that.
oh and the product itself claims to be a perfect version of what wine tries to be(which can be installed by 'anyone' easily on a linux system, whatever they mean by that).
Re:is the web page broken or am I retard? (Score:5, Informative)
"Phase 4
Engineering and
Development
" is at 0% for example..
and these two phases are complete:
The purpose of Phase One was to document a theoretical model of David. The theoretical model is primarily a mathematical flow chart description of how David and its component parts operate, accompanied by an artist's concept sketch.
Certified -
100% Completed
The purpose of Phase Two was to build a business case out of the theoretical model. The business and system requirements are analyzed and defined. The deliverable was an architectural framework that documents what David will do, including the functional requirements of each software component.
"
so yippiayee, they've so far calculated that there is a business need for this 'holy grail' and they somewhat know where it would sit at.
Re:is the web page broken or am I retard? (Score:5, Funny)
the press release (Score:5, Interesting)
realistically, they'll probably just charge so much for it that it dilutes the linux TCO advantage.
Re:the press release (Score:5, Funny)
Re:the press release (Score:3, Funny)
Not Legit (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Not Legit (Score:3, Insightful)
Because it was perfectly acceptable that your entire operating system shuts down, dumping anything you had open at the time, because of a driver bug?!
Re:Not Legit (Score:5, Insightful)
Not much you can do about buggy code running in priviledged mode no matter what operating system you're running.
Re:Not Legit (Score:5, Informative)
Windows crashing itself instead of corrupting memory or something was a big step for Microsoft. I have a feeling they didn't want to go that way because Windows crashed enough already, but frankly I go days in between unintended reboots on my windows XP system. (Unless Microsoft issues a patch...)
Re:Not Legit (Score:3, Informative)
I agree, though, right now the weak point in XP's stability is Explorer, which still seems to have a few minor bugs. Still, I keep my computer running a week at a time and only shut down on weekends at work. (My home PC I shut down often to save power, so I couldn't say how much uptime it's capable of.)
Re:Not Legit (Score:3, Informative)
Just for reference, a bad driver in the linux kernel can do the same thing, try running a S3 Savage driver in linux, you'll get all sorts of fireworks.
Main Reason for Less BSODs (was Re:Not Legit) (Score:2, Interesting)
No BSOD != stable OS (Score:3, Insightful)
True. But my 2000 and XP machines (at work) routinely have to be rebooted because they come to a crawl, or freeze. Is it the OS to blame, or the apps I am running? That is a rhetorical question - the cause of the reboot doesn't matter. This doesn't even count required reboots for software installs/patches, which are common. Just because there is no BSOD doesn't necessarily mean it is stable
Re:No BSOD != stable OS (Score:3, Insightful)
BTW, i
Re:Not Legit (Score:3, Insightful)
I agree with you that 2K/XP is far more table than previous versions of Windows, but I would'nt say MS was totally blameless for crashes. I certainly don't agree that 100% of crashes were due to buggy drivers. Even if bu
Re:Not Legit (Score:3, Insightful)
Before 2k/XP most people blammed microsoft when in reality it was buggy drivers. Now with the new driver model these instances of drivers crashing the kernel are rather rare.
I don't understand. You're contradicting yourself. You claim Microsoft was not to blame, but then claim they made changes to their operating system that fixed the problem. If the OS could be robust enough that the drivers could not cause this kind of problem, then the fault was clearly the OS, just as if a program is not robust e
BSOD's in 2k/XP (Score:3, Informative)
Reason: MS apparently decided that the BSOD was becoming too much of a symbol of windows failure, so they make XP by default reboot on an error that would otherwise cause a BSOD.
That being said, XP with good drivers is a vast improvement over any of the 9x series, but still not as stable as my 'nix.
And if you think on the fact that 'nix drivers are often hacked up without much support from the hardware makers... that should say a lot (either
Define your own success (Score:4, Interesting)
Yeah, but who decides what the major applications are?
Re:Define your own success (Score:2)
This applies to Windows itself, but especially to emulation. When people use the system as they are meant to, and expect the results that the documentation says they should expect, then it's much easier for emulation to pick up the slack. the only problem is, Windows developers are used to making end-runs around Microsoft, because the system has traditionally not done what it was supposed to in many if not
Re:Define your own success (Score:5, Funny)
Everyone knows that the major Windows apps are:
Now, if you'll excuse me, I'll get back to tracking down that 2 or clubs I need to finish up my work for today...
Re:Define your own success (Score:5, Funny)
On Windows: General Protection.
On OS X: Colonel Panic.
Stolen code base (Score:5, Insightful)
The phillipines is not known for its strict adherence to interlectual properties laws.
Actually, would this even be illegal?
If the codebase was stolen in the US, looked at in the phillipines and a program written based on that looking, would the program be legal in the US or not?
And what about elsewhere in the world?
Re:Stolen code base (Score:2, Funny)
Re:Stolen code base (Score:5, Informative)
Yes.
For a start the phillipines are a signatory of the Berne convention and as such have to abide by it's terms.
Basically, they have to abide by international copyright laws.
Attempt at an answer (Score:5, Interesting)
Well, for one, looking at a stolen codebase is not in itself illegal. Copying it is, so whoever gave them a copy has committed a crime. But that's beside the point.
The question is: Is the program itself a derivative work?
By looking at the codebase, it does make it more difficult to claim this, but it doesn't automatically make it a derivative work either. In the same way as reading a book and then writing your own on the same issue does not automatically make it plagiarized.
Ok, so this issue notwithstanding, "legal in the US" is a strange term. Legal how?
Redistribution?
If it is an illegal derivative work, then they have no right to distribute it, and thus noone can have the right to redistribute it either. Redistribution is illegal.
To own and use?
Well, with the possible exception of breaking a Microsoft EULA (the enforcability of which is questionable), the mere possession of a plagiarized work is NOT illegal.
(Although a cunning lawyer may argument that using it could be, since by running a program you are indeed copying it (to memory). But I doubt that'll fly in the real world.)
As for the USA:s DMCA laws. This is clearly not a copyright-circumvention device. None of that applies here.
IANALBITSCH
(I am not a lawyer, but I've taken some courses, haha.)
Re:Attempt at an answer (Score:5, Informative)
The problem is, this theory already has flown in "the real world." Check out MAI Systems Corp. v. Peak Computer, Inc., 991 F.2d 511 (9th Cir. 1993). [cornell.edu] I happen to think it's a horrendous decision, but it's binding in the 9th Circuit and would probably be pretty persuasive in other circuits if they were looking at this issue since Congress' response to the decision (17 U.S.C. Section 117) [cornell.edu] only addresses lawfully obtained copies.
IANALBITSCH
Am I the only one who read this as "I ANAL BITCH"?
Reminds me of Lindows (Score:5, Insightful)
this announcement reminds me of waht Lindows told us back then. I mean 100% Windows compatibility and such. The linked article seems quite ridiculous to me.
I mean "while all those projects emulating windows inherit the windows specific problems like instability, out new implementation does not contain those, thus is stabler then windows".
This is just another WINE-ripoff combined with good PR. Don't believe a thing!
Philip
Sounds too good too be true.. (Score:2, Insightful)
Vapourware? (Score:5, Insightful)
If this works, great. Going through there website doesn't fill me with any confidence.
Very reminiscint of Infinium Labs [www.infiniumlabs.com]
One to watch, yes; but really, don't hold your breath.
It's magical! (Score:5, Insightful)
Apparently, you don't even need to install it! What will they think of next...
Re:It's magical! (Score:3, Funny)
WILL BE... dead giveaway (Score:3, Insightful)
so basically someone identified a market and said "Hey, there's money to be made in reinventing the wine wheel. let's do it!"
Silver Bullet (Score:5, Insightful)
Jesus where do they get these reporters (Score:3, Insightful)
This thing is obviously a scam of some kind. It's not going to be an OS in a browser, they didn't correct MS design flaws while reverse-engineering the whole windows API, etc. IOW most of the article is wrong or insane. This may as well be about orgone boxes.
has to be said (Score:3, Interesting)
Second language english (Score:2, Insightful)
And one thing I've learnt the hard way again and again here is that usually it's not worth analyzing such text in such detail when this is the case. The reason is simple
Re:Second language english (Score:5, Informative)
We've been discussing this on the Philippine LUG list for a week now; consensus is that it's BS.
who is modding this up? (Score:3, Informative)
well the parent poster, and every one modding him up, are proving exactly that
ENGLISH IS THE OFFICIAL LANGUAGE OF THE PHILIPPINES!
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos / rp.html [cia.gov]
someone please mod the parent comment into oblivion, it showcases american ignorance, and apparently, even the ignorance of americans living in the far east!
Interestingly ... (Score:3, Informative)
More interestingly, Spanish is spoken by few people there (although they have spanish names often) even though Spain ruled the area for 400 years.
sounds like vaporware (Score:2, Interesting)
How MS could kill Linux dead. (Score:3, Funny)
Anyone remember COS - the MacOS clone? (Score:5, Informative)
Surprised? (Score:2)
Where do I send.... (Score:4, Funny)
I mean with a page like this [specopslabs.com] I can trust them right?
You know, they DO have place holders. I guess it's better than all the fake links they have around the site.
Go to the link and check the page source (Score:5, Informative)
Full text, without comments:
SpecOpS Labs is developing a Systems Level product called David . The primary purpose of David is to
provide a platform, which will serve as a viable alternative to the MS Windows Operating System.
Our first release of David, version 1.0, will be a Middleware program that will sit on top of the free and
open-source Linux operating system, and enable it to seamlessly run most Windows applications. Working in the
background, David will enable users to run their favorite programs with the look-and-feel they are familiar with.
*COMMENTED OUT*
The next generation will, in effect, incorporate the operating system into the web browser, virtually eliminating
the need for an operating system eventually, except to boot the computer and launch the browser.
*END COMMENTED OUT*
David will be configured to be made available for installation either through the internet or from a compact disk
or DVD. It may either be pre-installed by OEMs, or may be easily installed by consumers themselves in plug-and-play
fashion.
*COMMENTED OUT*
David will be distributed to consumers in five releases. See the Information Memorandum within the Investor
Relations section for detailed information on each scheduled release. The David V 1.0 architectural framework has
been validated, prototyped, and copyrighted and has entered the full design and development stage.
*END COMMENTED OUT*
Running Windows Applications on Linux. Most of the popular software applications such as Word,
Excel, Quicken and PageMaker are designed to run exclusively on the Windows OS;
that is, Windows applications cannot natively run on the Linux operating system.
However there are three alternative methods of running Windows applications on
the Linux OS. These three methods include:
*COMMENTED OUT*
the David Technology [specopslabs.com]
Link describes the simulation of the Windows Environment
Subsystem. For a detailed explanation of the other 3 methods,
click on the Our Market [specopslabs.com]
- Competitors section of this website.
*END COMMENTED OUT*
Big "?" (Score:3, Insightful)
In any case, vapourware announcement sometimes preceded by some years the real Microsoft products, maybe their part of emulation includes that behaviour too.
Technical aspects... (Score:2, Informative)
Stock photography (Score:2)
How significant is this ? (Score:2)
There doesnt seem to be any information as to whether this is an open source project or not. My suspi
Oh, AWESOME! (Score:5, Funny)
That's AWESOME!
Yea, but: (Score:3, Insightful)
I smell bullshit.
possibly crap, but might work... (Score:5, Interesting)
As I have learned it, the NT Kernel is separate from the Win32 API. The Win32 system makes calls into the kernel to get system things done (like disk and screen I/O), but tracks all the Win32 stuff itself (like windows and message queues). Win32 is, in essence, just a 'personality' running on the NT core. Someone (Microsoft themselves, I think) is doing another personality module for the NT kernel that will let it run Unixy stuff too, at the same time as the Win32 stuff.
What WINE is doing, which is incredibly difficult, is rewriting the entire Win32 API so that existing programs will run under Unix. This has taken them many, many years, and it's fairly good now, but it's far from a complete solution, largely because it's so difficult.
It sounds like the David project will probably run the *existing* Win32 API (which is hard to replace), and write a new set of kernel routines to emulate the NT kernel. AFAIK, most of the work on NT is at the Win32 level, the kernel itself doesn't get that much work, because it's really solid and really stable. So they're not chasing a moving target in quite the same way.
Presumably, the separation between the Win32 personality and the NT kernel is drawn clearly enough that they can replace the kernel without breaking things too badly. At least, that would appear to be how they're thinking about it.
This would probably mean you'd need to install Windows under Linux, in order to get a proper Win32 personality. The net effect would be very much like the way that OS/2 used to run Windows 3.1. (remember 'a better Windows than Windows'? It was!)
I believe this could work. It would not, however, remove the need to own a copy of Windows, so its use would be more for the pragmatists ('we want it to work') than the idealists ('we want it to be free').
Re:possibly crap, but might work... (Score:3, Insightful)
That said, are you *sure*? Everything I have read suggests that Win32 is just a personality, and that the NT kernel can easily support others. (If Microsoft weren't so concerned about maintaining their monopoly, there might be other personalities for sale already.) I don't know exactly where the dividi
A Window-binary to Linux-binary Re-complier? (Score:5, Interesting)
This would dissasemble the x86 windows binaries, rewriting any low level OS library and hardware access code, emitting Linux compatible executable binaries. This could be done both Ahead Of Time, before execution, and Just In Time, during execution. Caching the resulting rewrite on disk would speed up execution a lot.
A neat trick if possible. However Soft Labs would have to reverse engineer a hell of a lot of Microsoft's OS to manage it.
Re:A Window-binary to Linux-binary Re-complier? (Score:3, Funny)
What a recompiler would do is rewrite the winA() to linuxA() on the fly.. not much different, no real help.
Lets put it this way. Under WINE, a Windows application can inferface the OS though either a replacement WINE project DDL or native-Window-OS DDL which run under a form of emulation, calling lower down replacement WINE project DDLs. The former replacement WINE project DDL can be incomplete, missing
Look at the timeline and current progress... (Score:5, Informative)
There WAS (is?) a link and details on the project plan. A little Google cache searching shows this. [64.233.161.104] The direct link to http://www.specopslabs.com/david_development.htm still works, though it's not available from the home page (AFAICT).
Either way, the timeline breaks down like this (summary);
Phase 1 - 100% - Document theoretical model.
Phase 2 - 100% - Build business case.
Phase 3 - 10% - Produce architecture roadmap.
Phase 4 - 0% - Implement system design.
Phase 5 - 0% - Deployment and maintenance/updates.
This is a reasonable breakdown, though if Phase 4 is the coding stage, they have a boatload of work to do. Since most projects fail let alone products (more hostile environment), I would not be worried if I were Codeweavers, EMC (VMWare), ... let alone Microsoft.
Looks like they are attempting to get investment capital.
More Useful Links (Score:5, Informative)
No one needs this solution (Score:5, Interesting)
The Wine developers have succeeded in modularizing just about every aspect of their Windows API to the point where a whole other operating system (ReactOS) can use it!
Not to mention that there has also been some cross-pollination of Wine with Cygwin.
THOSE are the solutions to bet on, and not simply because they're older and more established but because they are open-source and have been audited by thousands, with some of the best minds on the planet on top of it!
How is ONE company going to match that without the same number of developers and expertise?
I remain sceptical, but I do wish them luck.
Emulation would be a great Transmeta app (Score:3, Interesting)
VMware does this by painful means, scanning code, using memory protection to catch self-modifying code, and generally doing too much work. With proper CPU support, a virtual machine can work cleanly, as on IBM mainframes.
Transmeta, or somebody who knows how to patch Transmeta's "code morphing" engine, could solve the problem properly.
Of course, all you get from this is the ability to run entire operating systems in virtual machines. You still have to run Windows to run Windows apps in VM.
Emulating the Windows platform for applications is a completely different problem. There's no fundamental technical obstacle; it's just a huge job and may run into intellectual property problems.
They aren't set to slay any golaths if you ask me. (Score:3, Insightful)
This is commercial development. They aren't going to open this code and it's not going to be free.
Like most commercial vendors they will be greedy of course and price it high, instead of dirt cheap like they need it.
If they price the oem non volume (or maybe even 10 pack) at about $5-15 then this will be a big winner all around. They will sell millions(or even billions) of copies and make a great return on their invesstment, every linux pc will be preloaded with this thing. Every linux user will have a copy.
On the other hand, if they are greedy like most companies and want more than that... all the sudden linux is as expensive or more so than windows per copy (like with crossover office). Vendors are going to sell box sets, not download distros and a box set is going to cost about $60-80, again simply too expensive. If this thing is even $20 and is basically prerequisite (and it would be) then it's just as expensive as windows.
Nope, our best hope is that this company has real technology, goes bankrupt and gpl's their code with their dying breath. It will do us little good for the same reason crossover office hasn't done nearly as much as it should... crossover office alone costs nearly as much per license as windows. If you combine it will a box distro it's more than an OEM XP Pro, let alone home.
My name is David (Score:4, Funny)
If they wanted to name it after someone, they should have called it 'Melinda'... I'm sure that would have bothered Bill in a way he couldn't legally do anything about (his wife's name).
GPL Issues? (Score:3, Insightful)
To the extent that this "incorporation" consists of copying over big blocks of code from WINE, this might raise some intricate legal issues. According to WineHQ, the copyright in WINE is held by the "WINE Project Authors," who now number over 600 people. I'm not sure exactly how such a large, disparate group of developers will be able to defend their copyright if it comes to that. Perhaps they should consider transferring copyright to the FSF, or setting up some nonprofit corporate entity to hold the rights?
Re:Another Vaporware story? (Score:2)
Re:Another Vaporware story? (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:War Craft and EU (Score:2)
Have you tried wine???? One of my buddies got it working under wine. had to do a little work but he did it.
Re:War Craft and EU (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Would be nice... (Score:2)
Re:I guess it's a nice to have... (Score:3, Insightful)
That is the *one* thing that is keeping me from being Windows free at this point. I've found open source replacements for everything else I use and look forward to gimp being able to do the things I need to do in PS so I can make the switch. I'm rooting for it.