HP Fires Father of OOP 697
An anonymous reader writes "Wow. Hewlett-Packard has disbanded its Advanced Software Research team and sent its leader, reknowned programmer Alan Kay, packing. From today's Good Morning Silicon Valley: 'HP is bidding adieu to legendary Silicon Valley technologist Alan Kay. A founder of Xerox's Palo Alto Research Center, Kay -- who once said, "The best way to predict the future is to invent it" -- was instrumental in the development of the windowing GUI and modern object-oriented programming. He envisioned a laptop computer long before the first ones rolled out and his Smalltalk programming language was a predecessor to Sun Microsystems' Java. Hard to believe HP's cutting him loose.' Maybe Apple will hire him."
And... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:And... (Score:5, Insightful)
If you honestly think he'll be struggling to find a well paying job elsewhere you're deluding yourself. Just because large floundering corporations are laying off good CS people doesn't mean much. Mostly what it means is that HP obviously doesn't have any long term vision anymore, and are probably very much on the way out.
Jedidiah.
Re:And... (Score:3, Informative)
Re:And... (Score:3, Insightful)
HP is a huge company.... (Score:5, Interesting)
HP stock dives when Dell changes their standard chassis color. Because HP is just a PC company.
HP stock dives when IBM does some new services campaign. Because HP is just a consulting company.
HP stock dives because they announce a new technology out of HP Labs. Because Dell doesn't have R&D, they save all that cash. HP is stupid for spending on that when they could just repaint Intel systems.
HP stock dove this week because somebody leaked that they'd lay off 25,000 people. When it ended up only being 14,500, HP just wasn't serious about cutting costs.
I am not saying that HP is fantastic, I am just saying that to call them just a PC company is silly. We all know that two articles from now (since there will be a dupe of this one before the next new article) it will be about printing, and everybody will say how HP is going to die since all they do is make printers...
It will be an interesting year for HP. By 6/1/06, the company could look completely different.
And one thing to consider, no computer seller is an engineering company any longer. Dell never was, Lenovo isn't going to be, Gateway isn't.
Agilent is the engineering half of HP.
Re:HP is a huge company.... (Score:3, Informative)
Re:And... (Score:4, Funny)
If I was HP I would be dead scared and trying to climb desperately to the middle end!
The middle end?
Re:But HP may be losing customer orientation (Score:4, Informative)
Re:And... (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm not worried about him, I'm more worried about my own ass. If even large corporations don't need CS visionaries anymore, then CS is no longer a hot field. Thus, your main choices for a job are: coding boring business apps all day, or supporting boring and poorly written business apps all day. Real CS jobs (ones which depend on talent, rather than a "skillset" of buzzwords) are getting very difficult to come by.
Re:And... (Score:3, Insightful)
CS visionaries are smart people who work in a particular field. Every field of work has the same type of "real jobs" you are describing. From CS, to plumbing, to glass blowing! And that's from personal experience.
Re:And... (Score:5, Interesting)
CS majors are smart people, but the US economy is dying for innovating marketing and business people to help them resell existing shit.
The only time I have seen US CS majors gain immediate value is when they go abroad. There are plenty of companies in China, India, HK, Canada, Australia that would love to get their hands on top CS majors from the US.
Re:And... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:And... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:And... (Score:5, Insightful)
I suspect that somehow HP will muddle through, just as IBM did. They're still a good company, despite the damage Fiorina caused them with their expensive and ill-considered buyout of Compaq Computers.
Re:And... (Score:3, Insightful)
Corporate blunders (Score:4, Interesting)
I'm not surprised HP is struggling (Score:5, Interesting)
About seven years ago I was a sub-sub-contractor working on a project for HP. A minor style issue came up on the documents I was formatting style sheets for: should there be a hyphen here or not? When I asked my contact at HP, he said: "I'll have to ask the committee about that."
I thought: This company is doomed!
Re:And... (Score:4, Insightful)
Actually employment stats bottomed in 2002 and have been picking up since. At the same time a lot of people are making the same mistake you did, which is reading too much in to the random firing.
In sum the overall picture is something like IT employment down 10% but rising back up, CS enrolment down 50% and falling.
Guess what that translates into? A shortage of CSers four years from now.
They fired Jim Gettys too (Score:3, Informative)
HP Slogans (Score:4, Insightful)
HP Invent ---- Isn't that hard without inventors ?
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:HP Slogans (Score:5, Funny)
Actually actually, I think it meant to say "HP Invert", as in Rectal-Cranial Inversion, which is what HP has collectively accomplished with moves like this.
Yet More HP Slogans (Score:5, Funny)
Actually actually, I think it meant to say "HP Invert", as in Rectal-Cranial Inversion, which is what HP has collectively accomplished with moves like this.
Fact: they meant to say "HP Invect" -- that is, to issue invective.
Examples:
"Fuck you, losers -- we're better off without you!"
And:
"HP Rules! U-S-A-!! U-S-A-!!," etc.
-kgj
Re:Yet More HP Slogans (Score:5, Funny)
Actually, what they meant to say was "HP Invest." Just one letter. Simple mistake, really.
Actually actually, I think it meant to say "HP Invert", as in Rectal-Cranial Inversion, which is what HP has collectively accomplished with moves like this.
Fact: they meant to say "HP Invect" -- that is, to issue invective.
Actual fact: they meant to say "HP Invebt" -- the meaning of which is unknown.
Re:Yet More HP Slogans (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Yet More HP Slogans (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Yet More HP Slogans (Score:5, Informative)
Squeak http://www.squeak.org/ [squeak.org]
Croquet http://opencroquet.org/ [opencroquet.org]
eToys http://squeakland.org/ [squeakland.org]
Re:Yet More HP Slogans (Score:5, Insightful)
Guys, guys, be aware of your history. The 'virtual machine' has been around since at least 1966 [wikipedia.org]. The concept of a virtual machine which was the common host to multiple languages has been around since at least 1977 [wikipedia.org]. Automatic memory management and garbage collection has been around since I was a small child [wikipedia.org].
Don't get me wrong. I like Java. I make my living out of Java. But Sun didn't 'invent' Java. Nothing in the conception of the Oak (later Java [wikipedia.org]) platform was either new or innovative. Java was a nice, clean implementation of some well known programming techniques which got a good marketing push behind it.
As for C# - indeed the whole .net platform - it is a very straight copy of Java. Virtually nothing - from the syntax of the C# language to many of the opcodes of the virtual machine - has changed. These things are not 'innovations' or 'inventions'. They're technology as usual; building on and refining what went before in quite small increments.
By contrast, Smalltalk genuinely was innovative. It was the first fully object oriented language. It used a virtual machine, but was the first virtual machine language which had a JIT [wikipedia.org]. Don't devalue inventions. Inventions (especially in software) are rare; there have been only about half a dozen genuine software inventions since 1960, and Smalltalk definitely counts as one of those.
Re:Yet More HP Slogans (Score:4, Insightful)
My exact thoughts...
Get real, they were hardly groundbreaking languages. Java basically wanted to move into that OOPish, procedural language niche C++ occupied, without having to deal with C++'s steep learning investment, and to be a bit more RAD-like in usage, hence its interpreter based origins. The only thing that could be described as cutting edge would be its compiler, but that was hardly an original idea. Microsoft was even less original, they just wanted the same things Java aimed for, and usurp Java from the "backoffice".
Its like saying C was an incredibly original language. No, it was based heavily on the procedural language theory; PASCAL (ugh) could be considered genuinely original. C was implemented to be a practical language; addressing the computing limitations of machines in its day, and be "simple" enough to make it portable over different architectures.
Java & C# was not research; they were marketing driven language designs that catered to less talented programmers. Much like how programmers abandoned assembler programming for COBOL and FORTRAN. (though FORTRAN was a language breakthrough.) Its wasn't the HP research group's job to do technical marketing. Its not RESEARCH. Its the job of the CTO/CEO to decide what research projects to fund, and thus the research direction. But its not to have a distinct payoff in five years. That's not research.
Its like chess. You use the computers to number crunch the advantageous plies. But that's not advancing chess theory. (Good) Human players aren't supposed to be looking only 4 moves, and then go to the next 4 moves. Humans are supposed to evaluate sets of moves in an abstract manner, looking to make the kill 20 moves in advance. That's research.
You can't be serious. (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm going to make that assumption, because the only other option is too depressing.
Unless you'd like a future where everything is basically owned and run--to a far greater extent than it already is--by a very small number of tremendously rich individuals, corporations are a good thing. This is because very few people actually have the resources by themselves to bankroll significant and long-lasting ventures: scientific, industrial, or otherwise.
To do big things, like build factories, operate supertankers, run airlines, you need a lot of money. Much more than any one sane person would be willing to put up. This is why corporations exist: they allow people to pool their resources, while mitigating risk. Without the shelter from liability that corporations offer, no one would invest in them. Without the great pools of capital that corporations provide, a whole lot of things that we enjoy and make life more enjoyable would disappear.
Maybe you want to live in a world without corporations, but count me out of it.
Spoken like a true idiot. (Score:3, Insightful)
Spoken like a true idiot. All stockholders are not "tremendously rich". In fact, the public at large owns about 60% of all the stocks in this country in direct ownership, mutual funds, retirement funds, and pension funds. Then add in insurance companies who invest premiums to have the money to pay claims... and banks who invest savings to pay interest and make loans... and...
I'd say you get the i
Re:Spoken like a true idiot. (Score:3, Interesting)
Yes, you made up some statistics and then didn't back them up. When I challenged you o
Re:Serious? Oh, it's very serious. (Score:3, Interesting)
Spoken like someone who is afraid to tackle my arguments head on. I have been outside of this country. And you have not rebutted a single thing I said.
Go visit North Korea, Cuba, or one of the former Soviet states and then tell me how the environment looks over there. If you think "corporations" make you weep... all I can is, you need to get out more.
Hmm.... so the only other solution than capitalism is communism, huh? You are a tool
Re:Oh, and... (Score:4, Insightful)
He's right, you are putting up straw men because he said nothing of the sort. He specically said the the current limited-liability for-profit corporate model is broken because the current legal framework for those corps requiring profit maximization not only encourages unethical behaviour but requires often self-destructive short-term focus.
While he did put up non-profit corps as an alternative, there are others: for-profit partnerships for example. The point he argues is that the profit motive should not be divorced from responsibility for a corp's actions.
One alternative, which is certainly possible with current information systems, is to change the definition of shareholder liability in a limited-liability corporation to be capped at the share value (during ownership) or (post-divestment) all income obtained from that corporation, via both capital gains and dividends, for the result of any actions taken during the period of share ownership, regardless of whether a person is still a shareholder or has sold their shares. So you can't be a CEO/President (or majority shareholder supporting said executive), run a company into the ground through unethical practices, hide it while making a killing by selling shares through an overinflated stock price, and escaping the liability for those actions when the pigeons come home to roost.
And if you're a small shareholder (or pension manager), you'll have a lot more interest in making sure you have company directors that are providing good oversight of the executive team, instead of rubber stamping their golf club buddies.
Re:HP Slogans (Score:4, Insightful)
That's the legal aspect of corporations, and justification enough to get rid of them. But it also introduces a subtler monkeywrench into the economy: encouraging stock ownership as an investment, which severely dilutes company ownership. There are so many owners, millions in many cases, that it's impossible for the owners to exercise control, even if they wanted to. So they elect a board of directors instead, who hires executives to actually run it.
All in all, corporations are unnatural entities. But the fix is easy, and doesn't need a new constitutional ammendment. Just rescind the current laws of incorporation. But don't expect it anytime soon. Like copyright and patents, incorporation is too useful of a fiction to abolish. You'll be fought tooth and nail from every side. Who are you going to go to for legal assistance, some non-profit corporation?
Re:HP Slogans (Score:3, Informative)
Maybe Apple will hire him... (Score:2)
Re:Maybe Apple will hire him... (Score:5, Interesting)
Kay is the kind of people that have too much ideas and not enough time to research or implement all of them (in a good sense of course). That means he's got potential ideas lined up waiting for some CPU cycles to become available. You give him carte blanche over a talented team and he create amazing stuff. I'd be the ideal person to build an "Internet Plateform", whatever it is. I can tell what exists today is not "it" and barely registers as functional in his mind. I'd be surprised if he doesn't end at Google.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Especially appropriate (Score:4, Funny)
Wow. (Score:3, Interesting)
Dude! We Only Need One Dell! (Score:5, Insightful)
Sigh...Dell does what it does pretty well, but they are definitely not a company known for much imagination or innovation. They generally follow after someone else has blazed the path, a strategy that must fail once all of the true innovators have been eliminated. We don't really need any more Dells. If HP becomes just like Dell, then why should I buy from them? I might as well buy from Dell.
HP can still succeed, but they need to do so by being HP. Efficiency is good, but not at the expense of the good things that make HP stand out from the crowd and create future opportunities. I think farmers say that you shouldn't eat the seed corn.
Re:Don't dog Dell (Score:5, Insightful)
Nothing particularly creative, it's a very straightforward and unimaginative approach that is mainly successful due to the general lack of innovation in the computer industry.
Re:Don't dog Dell (Score:3, Insightful)
No, they didn't get lucky. I'm guessing maybe you're too young to remember the degree to which Michael Dell revolutionized PC manufacturing, marketing and sales when he started the company. Sure, today, they're just exploiting the hell out of the model that Michael Dell set up, but luck had very little to do with it. Microsoft got lucky, with the whole I
Re:Don't dog Dell (Score:4, Insightful)
Also, if it were that easy, you don't think all their competitors would do it?
The industry has been heading in that direction for the past 20 years or so. Dell's only achievement is finding a decent balance between price and quality.
Yeah. Thanks in large part to....Dell! They're one of a handfull of companies who have continually found ways to push margins. And when most companies start to get soft, they found ways to continually pound their competitors. That's the thing - as cheap as computers are now, they're still finding ways to make them cheaper.
They got lucky. Part of the reason they are successful is because they never innovate and spend as little as possible on engineering and R&D.
I'm guessing you're not in the business world, because crippling every single one of your competitors in an amazingly competitive industry doesn't happen through luck.
Basically, I'm pretty sure you just have a set idea of what innovation is, and that happens to coincide with pushing the technical envelope. However, the guy who invents it doesn't get it into homes. That would be the guy who figures out to make it cheaper. Dell has been that guy for the last 20 years. If it were up to IBM, PCs would still cost over $1000, which is what the bottom of the line PC cost 13 years ago when I got my first.
Re:Don't dog Dell (Score:3, Interesting)
Anyway, it's not Dell who lowered prices, but rather the chip industry. They are the actual innovators here -- chip density increased more than 10-fold in the last 15 or so years, which is the sole reason for p
Dog Dell (Score:3)
The only hard part about it is "bootstrapping" an operation that big, once you have it running it's cake: you can dictate pricing terms to your parts suppliers (because you're so big, you can bankrupt them by canceling your orders), have everything manufactured overseas where labor is cheap, play your distributers against each other to keep their percentage minimal, and maintain your market share by undercutting any possible competition (which, not being as big as
Something's Fishy (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Something's Fishy (Score:2)
Yes, that's why they're cancelling four of the company's research projects, to "save face" when they heard he wanted to resign. Right. I think you might be trying just a little too hard here to be the one to cleverly figure out the "story behind the story" analysis that 'everyone else missed' ;)
Re:Something's Fishy (Score:2, Funny)
Am I still picking you up at bldg 4 in front of HP's cafeteria at 7:30pm tonight?
Google (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Google (Score:2, Funny)
Re:Google (Score:5, Funny)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manhole_cover [wikipedia.org]
It really kills me that wikipedia practically has a manhole category.
I'm going to stop saying "manhole" now.
Re:Google (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Google (Score:5, Funny)
Is Carly Fiorini hiring? (Score:3, Funny)
I hear she's a wiz at turning companies around!
Oh wait....
Bad Idea (Score:4, Funny)
Read it while you can! (Score:5, Informative)
Or maybe IBM, Novell or Redhat :-) (Score:3, Insightful)
Favorite Alan Kay Quotation (Score:5, Funny)
- Alan Kay
I don't know if this is a true quotation, or is apocryphal, but it's good enough to throw around at random.
I'm sure Mr. Kay will not have any problem finding a job, should he so desire one. Regardless, I wish him the best of luck.
Re:Favorite Alan Kay Quotation (Score:5, Funny)
At which point, the collective hand of all programmers across the world, embodied in Alan Kay's hand, reaches across the table and slaps the shit out of the interviewer.
Not that I'm bitter.
Re:Favorite Alan Kay Quotation (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Favorite Alan Kay Quotation (Score:3, Insightful)
You don't hire Alan Kay to write code, you numbnut.
Why is that? Alan Kay has great influence on programming practice, shouldn't you expect him to program as well? Look at Don Knuth. He is a once-in-century figure in computer science, and is fantastically knowledgable, but he writes programs all the time [stanford.edu]. I suspect Alan Kay does as well.
What's the big fuss? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:What's the big fuss? (Score:5, Informative)
Oh ye of li'l faith. (Score:3, Insightful)
The interesting thing is that these databases represented about 1,200 relationships between these objects. (Note the difference in scale. There were two to three times as many relationships as there were objects. And they NEVER understood
What will happen to Teatime and Croquet? (Score:5, Funny)
I just hope development on Croquet doesn't stall now, otherwise us cyberspace-lusting techno-hopefuls will just have to wait for the inevitable (but still hopefully far-off) day where you can open Word documents and Excel spreadsheets from inside World of Warcraft.
Mod Parent Up (Score:2)
I wish I had mod points! This is both +Informative and way, way +Funny -- !
-kgj
Smalltalk (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Smalltalk (Score:5, Informative)
While you say "aggressively dynmically typed" you also remember you always have the option of statically typing.
Comment removed (Score:4, Informative)
sad (Score:2)
On the bright side, Kay will probably end up getting hired at a real company that wants to actually innovate.
Kay already did work for Apple, (Score:5, Informative)
That is why the Squeak license still mentions Apple
wtf is hp thinking? (Score:2)
Wow. This is just, wow. I wish however is in control these days would spin off the "real hp" into a company unto its own and let the hp we see now continue its moronic quest to mirror Dell. Keep getting rid of the things that made hp and they'll kill hp for good, or at least debase it to a lame Dell knockoff. Sad to see it get this low.
Re:wtf is hp thinking? (Score:3, Insightful)
Already done several years ago. It's called Agilent.
SirWired
Alan Kay Videos explaning early GUI research (Score:5, Informative)
HP doesn't need Kay. (Score:3, Insightful)
HP's downfall started to happen as soon as they started selling tons of LaserJet printers.
From there, HP seemed to take a little break and brought nothing new to market. Instead of making great new products, they kept on milking the same printer lines until they got old, crusty, and expensive to operate. They tried to do the same thing with their PC line. They unloaded or failed to focus on their other product lines.
I haven't bought an HP product in years. My ex-girlfriend bought an HP inkjet printer, but it failed quickly and the consumables were ridiculously expensive. It just didn't seem like an HP quality product to me.
So HP fired Alan Kay? That's good for Alan. Because who wants to work for an ink-n-toner company?
Re:HP doesn't need Kay. (Score:5, Interesting)
Technology is only good as long as it can be seen as an evolutionary step, and is almost exlcusively performed by the marketing department, leading to the terms "new and improved", and "version 2.0"(heh, or "XP").
Change is bad, Microsoft blew $5B on the Xbox project so far simply to keep sony from possibly threatening the windows empire with the ps2.
Fear change, go with the names you trust, these are not the droids you are looking for.
And the band played on.
Laptop? (Score:5, Interesting)
On that basis, the rest of us still haven't caught up with him! Things like GUIs, portable computers, wireless networking, and the web are all steps towards the future he envisioned. But that future is still a long ways away.
mod points be damned (Score:3, Insightful)
Golden parachute! Golden parachute! (Score:3, Informative)
How could the board approve of her action which is obviously doing nothing more than achieving her own personal goal while damaging the company as a whole? Unless, of course, the major investors who back Carly approve of this. I cannot tell for sure, but that's very possible - the major investors believe that HP is doomed.
Re:Golden parachute! Golden parachute! (Score:3, Informative)
Feb 9th, 2005: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/02/09/carly_fio
Re:Golden parachute! Golden parachute! (Score:3, Interesting)
alan kay - winner of some minor prize in CS (Score:5, Informative)
Lesson in reality (Score:3, Interesting)
You want to get into computer science? Look what happens to a winner of the Turing Award. Computer science, programming, and just about anything related to computers is now passe. It's no longer a book of spells from which you cast great power. It is a hack-n-slash battle of attrition. "Just get it done" is the new methodology. R&D is old school.
Everyone wants to launch in against HP or the corporation in general
Acronym Collision (Score:3, Funny)
Harry Potter fires the father of the Order Of the Phoenix? Wha?
...
OH.
Boycott HP.. Horrible company (Score:5, Insightful)
HP has obviously abandoned the USA and it's time we abandon this dying company.
You down with OOP? (Score:3, Funny)
WOW - last time this happen (Score:3, Interesting)
Comment removed (Score:5, Interesting)
Coined and invented are two different things (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Coined and invented are two different things (Score:5, Insightful)
They both died in 2002.
Lately I have heard more than once that Alan Kay is the father of Object Oriented programming. But it seems he is the father of dynamic object oriented programming. At least that is what Wikipedia say. Why is the world already forgetting Nygaard and Dahl?
An Apple hire is not far fetched (Score:3, Interesting)
HP needs a new slogan (Score:4, Funny)
the new slogan
"merge, layoff, and go out of business"
Maybe Apple will hire him... (Score:5, Informative)
Why are you assuming HP is wrong? (Score:4, Interesting)
When I heard "Alan Kay" I remembered this load of whining. [fortune.com] Here's my comment on that [slashdot.org].
I have more respect for people who actually get things done, like the Linux kernel contributors, than people who pontificate on the future of OO or whatever. Anyone claiming that HP should keep this guy because of his long-past accomplishments should have his head examined. HP should only retain people who help the company make money and move forward.
Typical short termism. (Score:4, Insightful)
Those are the guys that tell you where no to set your foot because they did so before and found there was a bear trap.
If you seriously are saying that HP can't find a place on their company for a guy that shaped a good part of software development carried out during the last 20 years, worldwide, then you and HP need to sit down and pause because you both are lunatics.
People like these are few per generation. I am sure other more enlightened companies (like the ones mentioned on the thread), that are actually shapping the IT world will snap him if he still feels like working.
Re:Why are you assuming HP is wrong? (Score:3)
Yes.
Don't you think an employee should be measured by the value he's contributing now?
No.
Next question? Maybe, Why?
Kay didn't invent OOP (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:CRL is also going - home of two X-perts (Score:4, Interesting)
for the MIT diaspora. WRL in Palo Alto for the
Stanford diaspora. And then for added flavour
SRC a block down from WRL, created so that Bob
Taylor could employ the PARC diaspora (Thacker,
Lampson). What good did it do them? A lot of
work on X --- the xterm(1) manual page has people
from all three, I think. Alta Vista, which Mike
Burrows and others did at SRC. Brian Reid did a
load of interesting stuff at WRL. Lamport was
at SRC at various points, for which us LaTeX users
give much thanks. I'm told SRC people bailed
the Alpha design out at various points. But after
that? At least a thousand man-years to produce...?
Compaq kept it all going, but HP already had labs
in Palo Alto and Bristol. How many research
operations does a PC maker with a shrinking
server market need? To do what?
ian